Bit of a strawman here, tbh. Not really reasonable to compare silver-border cards to an ability to have an extra ten cards and two - five (pending if you're playing all of burning, cunning, death, golden, glittering) tutours. Was the initial twelve or so tutours any deck gets access to not enough for you?
If you want a wishboard, that's fine by me, but I will have a wishboard too. We can play that game. This isn't the same as, say, having an R&D's Secret Lair somewhere in the same ninety-nine (or ninety-six, since I'll be Crop Rotationing or Sylvan Scrying/Expedition Maping my way into it).
Playing Mental Magic doesnt sound very fair to me either. Also I dont want to play with wishboards but in a sense I feel its about the same level to just show up with a wishboard and try to use it as it is to show up with an Un deck.
Un cards are also ridiculous in that there is no real way to interpret what is fair in how you use them. What if I pick up a Vile Bile for instance and then repeatedly flicker it against you? You just died on turn 2 and I lost 2 life. I dont want to suddenly play a game of tag when I came for commander.
I get what you're saying; I too would find it very unamusing to play against someone using cards like Vile Bile, R&D's Secret Lair, etc. And I also like your idea of planning it before hand. However, with certain guidelines to avoid overtly annoying things, like an acceptable list of cards that the playgroup can agree upon before-hand. So it would be good to have some kind of way to break these silver-bordered cards or use a silver-bordered legendary creature as your commander. I think that it would be a bit fun to allow at the least the more viable silver-bordered cards to be used in such a way.
However, for those that are completely and totally against any kind of silver-bordered card becoming legal to use, I pose this:
Say back in the day someone won a multiplayer commander match by playing Kaervek's Spite with Academy Rector in play. Then, upon the rector's death, search for The Cheese Stands Alone. Totally possible if your elder dragon was Chromium. You would probably become annoyed and angry because a player snuck in a silver-bordered card and won the match that way. Even though the format is casual, it does have its strict set of rules of which - I totally, wholeheartedly, 100% agree - should always be followed because that way everyone's on the same page. It's like the rounding rules in scientific calculations; they're there for a reason. Now, fast-forward a couple years in the future and say that same player has Oloro, Ageless Ascetic as commander. And then proceeds to cast Kaervek's Spite with Academy Rector in play. Then, upon the rector's death, tutors for Barren Glory. How is this win any different? (Apart from presumably The Cheese Stands Alone giving you the win the moment the condition is met (although, that would probably be clarified in the Oracle update come the release of Unstable).)
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(Apart from presumably The Cheese Stands Alone giving you the win the moment the condition is met (although, that would probably be clarified in the Oracle update come the release of Unstable).)
First of all, there is no reason to think that any Oracle changes will functionally change cards unless absolutely necessary. The Cheese Stands Alone will most likely still win on the spot and there isn't anything we have seen so far to suggest differently. Oracle updates should, for the most part, just be templating updates. For example, The Cheese Stands Alone will most likely say "If you control no nontoken permanents other than The Cheese Stands Alone and you have no cards in hand, you win the game". Note the "nontoken" clause as this is what every other card that says "cards" in this context now says. So, there is another difference between this and Barren Glory.
Now, they do have a bit more leeway regarding "design intent" as MaRo is still around and he had a major part in both previous Un- Sets so it is possible they change the Oracle text in a different way than other previous cards but we need to wait until it actually happens.
As for your example, yes, they are completely different based entirely on the point that The Cheese Stands Alone was not black bordered. Yes, they decided there was a way to do it in Black Border and that is great. However, that can't be a deciding factor in whether a card should be allowed. There are plenty of cards on the line and MaRo has stated they use the Un sets as testing grounds for potential future black bordered ideas. Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug is a good example. This doesn't change the fact that Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug is an Un card. Yes, if your group is fine with Silver Bordered cards, use whatever you want. But there are those among us who don't want to deal with the wacky rules interpretations that Un cards bring to the table. Either you allow all silver bordered cards or none and there are plenty that are frustrating to play against that I lean towards allowing none.
(Apart from presumably The Cheese Stands Alone giving you the win the moment the condition is met (although, that would probably be clarified in the Oracle update come the release of Unstable).)
First of all, there is no reason to think that any Oracle changes will functionally change cards unless absolutely necessary. The Cheese Stands Alone will most likely still win on the spot and there isn't anything we have seen so far to suggest differently. Oracle updates should, for the most part, just be templating updates. For example, The Cheese Stands Alone will most likely say "If you control no nontoken permanents other than The Cheese Stands Alone and you have no cards in hand, you win the game". Note the "nontoken" clause as this is what every other card that says "cards" in this context now says. So, there is another difference between this and Barren Glory.
Now, they do have a bit more leeway regarding "design intent" as MaRo is still around and he had a major part in both previous Un- Sets so it is possible they change the Oracle text in a different way than other previous cards but we need to wait until it actually happens.
As for your example, yes, they are completely different based entirely on the point that The Cheese Stands Alone was not black bordered. Yes, they decided there was a way to do it in Black Border and that is great. However, that can't be a deciding factor in whether a card should be allowed. There are plenty of cards on the line and MaRo has stated they use the Un sets as testing grounds for potential future black bordered ideas. Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug is a good example. This doesn't change the fact that Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug is an Un card. Yes, if your group is fine with Silver Bordered cards, use whatever you want. But there are those among us who don't want to deal with the wacky rules interpretations that Un cards bring to the table. Either you allow all silver bordered cards or none and there are plenty that are frustrating to play against that I lean towards allowing none.
I agree, the rewording would probably require a trigger phrasing or a state-based action phrasing.
I bring up the topic precisely because I want people's opinions on the matter. It's also a very interesting subject to me. However, paying $15 to draft a set which I will have even less use for than the draft-matters cards in the Conspiracy sets is a bit disconcerting. I would like to be able to use these cards I'm buying.
Commander seems to be the go-to casual/kitchen-table format (which is why I quit every other format to play commander). I follow all the rules whether I agree with them or not. Like bannings, unbannings, and the change from partial paris mulligans. But discussing things beforehand with a pod is usually the way to go. For example, very frequently does my pod play multiplayer commander with planechase. Also, when Theros block ended, there was a time we'd play commander by starting the game with three heroes on the battlefield. These were treated as permanents in play for effect of any rule or card. That was actually pretty fun. However, none of those situations required deck-building. Including silver-bordered cards in a cardpool requires designing and building your deck around it. Making commander decks with only silver-bordered cards would be too limiting and you'd have to include bad cards just to get the card count up to 100 (for those who remember having to include cards from Homelands in your deck when Standard required you to include cards from every legal set). Choosing from ~450 just won't cut it.
This is why I'm hopeful in what MaRo posted in tumblr. Would there be a subcategory of Commander that allows for some silver-bordered cards to be used? Would they all be legal? Would some be banned? Would you be able to mix black and silver? Would that be too broken? There's a lot of questions I have and I'm just worried about the answers.
I'm not too serious a player but I'm also not Un-set level wacky. If I wanna play games that are purely silver-bordered I might as well play Munchkin instead.
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This set is gonna be a huge hit. Short and long term... because of the kitchen table.
That said, multicolor cards usually mean lands! Need we say more! ???
Silver border duals lands! (And foil!) I seriously hope true duals or tri lands searchable with no drawbacks are printed in this set!
This set is gonna be a huge hit. Short and long term... because of the kitchen table.
That said, multicolor cards usually mean lands! Need we say more! ???
Silver border duals lands! (And foil!) I seriously hope true duals or tri lands searchable with no drawbacks are printed in this set!
Lol, who knows what things can happen in an Un-set, but I doubt we'll get any dual or tri lands. There will be multicolored cards but they'll only be allied colored. So very easy to play in limited draft with just 2 types of basic lands in the deck. Allied colors receive way too much support in MtG. It'd be even more of an inbalance if even in an Un-set (which we get practically every 8 years average) we get allied colored lands. Right now there's an inbalance in tango lands, bicycle lands, and the SOI hand check lands (the ones that check if you have a specific type in hand rather than in play). That's a real pain when playing commander. Only recently were the enemy fast lands printed. Many many years apart from the Mirrodin 2 block.
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Pragmatically speaking, the whole "I don't want to draft cards that I won't be able to use" issue is a real problem to Unstable and likely a big reason why they have taken so long to revisit it; they couldn't find a nice solution to it. From a business perspective, it could pose a serious barrier to sales.
Conspiracy is a good analogy here. There are a large number of cards in Conspiracy that are completely useless in all formats except cube (which isn't a significant factor because there are way fewer cubes per player than there are EDH decks per player). In fact pretty much the only thing that propped up CNS prices were chase reprints and a couple lucky Legacy chase cards like Leovold.
Assuming they're not going to just have Steamflogger Boss and basic lands for black-bordered cards, I think having a good 10-15 black-bordered cards that are Legacy and Commander-legal would be a good solution.
Another possibility would be to have the whole set be commander-legal and simply design the cards to not be annoying as hell to play against like Unhinged was like (it should be noted that Sword of Dungeons and Dragons is the only known card from this set so far; all the other silver-bordered cards were Hascon promos).
A third option would be to have a small 10-card whitelist of UN-cards. There are a few of them such as The Cheese Stands Alone or Blast from the Past which are perfectly serviceable in normal Magic, though without some way to elegantly signify the whitelist (like black borders mentioned above) tacking this on the banlist section of the Commander rules is a tad unwieldy.
I would like to be able to use these cards I'm buying.
Do phantom drafts instead (where you don't get to keep the cards at the end)? They tend to be significantly cheaper or even free.
That's very interesting and I've never heard of it; how does that work?
The name comes from MTGO, but you can do a phantom draft with physical cards just as easily. Somebody (whether it's a friend or a shop) buys the sealed product, and the players pay the entrance fee for the event (which might be $0, depending on who's running it and whether there's any prizes). You draft just like normal, except you don't own the cards you're opening, and you return them at the end of the event.
Pragmatically speaking, the whole "I don't want to draft cards that I won't be able to use" issue is a real problem to Unstable and likely a big reason why they have taken so long to revisit it; they couldn't find a nice solution to it. From a business perspective, it could pose a serious barrier to sales.
Conspiracy is a good analogy here. There are a large number of cards in Conspiracy that are completely useless in all formats except cube (which isn't a significant factor because there are way fewer cubes per player than there are EDH decks per player). In fact pretty much the only thing that propped up CNS prices were chase reprints and a couple lucky Legacy chase cards like Leovold.
Assuming they're not going to just have Steamflogger Boss and basic lands for black-bordered cards, I think having a good 10-15 black-bordered cards that are Legacy and Commander-legal would be a good solution.
Another possibility would be to have the whole set be commander-legal and simply design the cards to not be annoying as hell to play against like Unhinged was like (it should be noted that Sword of Dungeons and Dragons is the only known card from this set so far; all the other silver-bordered cards were Hascon promos).
A third option would be to have a small 10-card whitelist of UN-cards. There are a few of them such as The Cheese Stands Alone or Blast from the Past which are perfectly serviceable in normal Magic, though without some way to elegantly signify the whitelist (like black borders mentioned above) tacking this on the banlist section of the Commander rules is a tad unwieldy.
That's a great idea. But I really doubt they add any other black-bordered cards in future Un-sets. Maybe they're experimenting with Steamflogger Boss to dip their toes in adding black-bordered cards in an Un-set. However, Steamflogger Boss is in no way a chase card. In fact, it'll still be pretty useless outside of Unstable.
White-bordering certain Un-cards would be an excellent idea. Maybe releasing a sort of "greatest hits" of silver-bordered cards in white border (although many people dislike using white-bordered cards). But I get what you mean. Releasing the more playable and least annoying silver-bordered cards in black-border will undoubtedly solve many problems. For one thing, you'd be able to use those silver-bordered versions if you have them already. #2, you'd be able to actively play with these cards in drafts because you could still have them afterwards. They'd actually be worth buying because you'd be able to use them outside of Cube or limited draft.
I would like to be able to use these cards I'm buying.
Do phantom drafts instead (where you don't get to keep the cards at the end)? They tend to be significantly cheaper or even free.
That's very interesting and I've never heard of it; how does that work?
The name comes from MTGO, but you can do a phantom draft with physical cards just as easily. Somebody (whether it's a friend or a shop) buys the sealed product, and the players pay the entrance fee for the event (which might be $0, depending on who's running it and whether there's any prizes). You draft just like normal, except you don't own the cards you're opening, and you return them at the end of the event.
Sounds interesting. I don't think that a store would crack open a box to have people draft it only to run the risk of the cards not being pack fresh. Even if you pay $0 and return the cards, there's still a chance that the cards won't make it back or they won't be in mint condition. If I owned a store, I don't think I would have a phantom draft where people wouldn't pay anything and I'd keep the cards. Maybe if I cracked open boxes in order to sell singles and I had friends that wouldn't mess up the cards then maybe I would do that way. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone with a store nor do I know people who buy boxes in order to draft. For the moment, I draft in stores if the price isn't too high. Cracking open a choice rare and then not being to able to claim it from the pot afterwards is kind of a bummer.
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You bring up a good point comparing this to Conspiracy. When I created my first EDH deck, I knew cards from Conspiracy were EDH legal, but did not know that conspiracies (not to be confused with conspiracy) were banned. Because of this, I had my deck thinned by 14 (due to Advantageous Proclamation being one of the 10 conspiracies). I had a rather rude awakening when I first attempted to play at my local LGS. The group was not for it (and what didn't help was that Gatherer said one thing about legality whilst someone else said commander.net said something else.)
To be honest, I wouldn't run Sovereign's Reign whilst running WorldKnit, so nowadays IF conspiracies were legal, my main deck would be (minus my commander and all that occurs with conspiracies) 71 cards.
Also I feel I should point out that City of Ass is about $5 right now and that would skyrocket because it is the best-strictly-mana-producing-land ever printed. This would also probably scare a lot of parents away if they knew Timberly or Jeffifer were trying to trade (or worse, successfully traded) for such a card.
Would it be okay for someone to order you to get them X cups of water, where X is equal to the number of cups in the house by using Ashnod's Coupon+Prototype Portal+Thran Weaponry+March of the Machines+Intruder Alarm?
Does Booster Tutor have to be a booster you own?
Can your opponent sneak a Cheatyface that you own into the game under their control by being extra cheaty (it wasn't an EDH game, but it did happen[still not sure if it was legal], but it was a really crazy game!)
How would Clam session work online?
There are a lot of cards that don't make sense in Unsets. There a lot of overpriced cards in Unsets. There are honestly some I wouldn't mind seeing (like clambassadors in a donate style deck.
The big question is whether TPTB want to double the size of the ban list or not, BECAUSE I CALL LAZINESS AS A POSSIBLE FACTOR! Laziness does also cause innovation though....
Can your opponent sneak a Cheatyface that you own into the game under their control by being extra cheaty (it wasn't an EDH game, but it did happen[still not sure if it was legal], but it was a really crazy game!)
I once heard of someone putting a Cheatyface behind each card in their deck inside the sleeves, in order to win by pulling out all of the ones behind their permanents later to swing for lethal.
hey all, sorry for my sudden absence. i dunno if you can tell by the location under my username but i live in puerto rico. the situation here has been catastrophic - especially my hometown, one of the municipalities where the eye of hurricane maria passed. i've been without water, electricity, internet, and cellphone service. it's also been impossible to efficiently obtain gasoline and food. it's been altogether completely impossible to get bottled water. i'm on a friend's phone right now who managed to get some service working at the capitol. not to mention the fact that i've been without electricity and internet since hurricane irma. oh well... anyways, it'll probably be a lot longer since i have any kind of normality. hopefully my threads still remain active because they're not simply here for my own opinions and ideas but the community's as well. so you can all still use them to help each other out. you can still ask me stuff, as well; i simply won't be able to reply anytime soon.
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I'm hoping that Unstable stays just serious enough that a blanket statement of "Unstable is allowed, but no other silver-border" makes sense. Or maybe just "Unstable legends are legal commanders, but no other silver-bordered".
Like others in this thread, I'm okay with 90% of un-cards. It's cards like Loose Lips or Cheatyface that make it unplayable...
un-guy: "I choose 'I concede the game'"
me: "okay, but that doesn't actually make someone concede."
un-guy: "Yes it does."
(30 minute argument)
other un-guy: "hey, while you guys were arguing I snuck in these 20 cheatyfaces from outside of the game."
first un-guy: "hah, wow, nice. I scoop."
me: "no, the developers released errata for that card; it only works from your hand."
first un-guy: "yeah, but it says you 'cheat' them, so you can ignore that."
me: "no, that's stupid, you're stupid, and I'm never playing with un-cards again because of this idiocy."
Unfortunately there is supposed to be at least one dexterity-based card (like Chaos Orb) in the set, so my hopes are not high. I don't remember where I read that, though.
Staying Power is beyond broken if you work around it. You could basically guarantee you won't lose by comboing certain cards with Staying Power. If you're able to cast Angel's Grace before getting Staying Power in play (and then something to protect it like Simic Charm and/or Boros Charm) then you're pretty much unable to lose the game. Unless someone exiles all permanents or something similar (like Merciless Eviction). You could probably still counter that spell or cast Teferi's Protection in response. Still, Staying Power is a card that if built around, could be very broken indeed. The worst that can happen is getting a draw if someone wins via a card that has a "you win the game" clause on it.
To be honest, even if I would love playing with Staying power (just to think about what Jareth, Leonine titan could become with) it just wont happend T_T
I'm hoping that Unstable stays just serious enough that a blanket statement of "Unstable is allowed, but no other silver-border" makes sense. Or maybe just "Unstable legends are legal commanders, but no other silver-bordered".
Like others in this thread, I'm okay with 90% of un-cards. It's cards like Loose Lips or Cheatyface that make it unplayable...
un-guy: "I choose 'I concede the game'"
me: "okay, but that doesn't actually make someone concede."
un-guy: "Yes it does."
(30 minute argument)
other un-guy: "hey, while you guys were arguing I snuck in these 20 cheatyfaces from outside of the game."
first un-guy: "hah, wow, nice. I scoop."
me: "no, the developers released errata for that card; it only works from your hand."
first un-guy: "yeah, but it says you 'cheat' them, so you can ignore that."
me: "no, that's stupid, you're stupid, and I'm never playing with un-cards again because of this idiocy."
Unfortunately there is supposed to be at least one dexterity-based card (like Chaos Orb) in the set, so my hopes are not high. I don't remember where I read that, though.
Yeah, those are the kinds of things I want to avoid. From the look of things with what's been spoiled so far, Unstable seems to be the most stable of the three silver-bordered sets. They look incredibly playable and awesome. If I were to draft, it would definitely be a bummer to miss out on using these cards elsewhere. Hopefully a format is developed where certain silver-bordered cards are allowed. Maybe that's why Oracle will finally be updated to deal with Unglued and Unhinged?
I like your list; it's pretty similar to mine. Maybe after the release of Unstable and the Oracle update a new format or variant style of play will arise based on silver-bordered cards? If not, I'm all up for trying to design one.
Staying Power is beyond broken if you work around it. You could basically guarantee you won't lose by comboing certain cards with Staying Power. If you're able to cast Angel's Grace before getting Staying Power in play (and then something to protect it like Simic Charm and/or Boros Charm) then you're pretty much unable to lose the game. Unless someone exiles all permanents or something similar (like Merciless Eviction). You could probably still counter that spell or cast Teferi's Protection in response. Still, Staying Power is a card that if built around, could be very broken indeed. The worst that can happen is getting a draw if someone wins via a card that has a "you win the game" clause on it.
To be honest, even if I would love playing with Staying power (just to think about what Jareth, Leonine titan could become with) it just wont happend T_T
From what I understand with Staying Power is that it records the effects that should've ended at the end of turn step. When it leaves the battlefield, then those delayed triggers occur at the end of turn step.
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spike, tournament grinder would be by far the most absurdly busted commander ever printed (if legal). 2: put the power 9 into your hand. Seems fair.
Can't say I like the design for limited either. Seems like a huge boon to those who are randomly carrying around busted old cards. I can't see any universe in which spike is fun to play against, really. Maybe that's the point?
EDIT: I guess in fairness you couldn't put ALL of the p9 into your hand with normal life totals. There's still probably an easy way to win with it, though. tinker + lotus + mox with BSC in your deck? Or maybe channel + lotus + emrakul? That ends up costing...42 life if you don't pay any of spike's phyrexian mana. So I guess you gotta wait until you have 2BB to win the game.
spike, tournament grinder would be by far the most absurdly busted commander ever printed (if legal). 2: put the power 9 into your hand. Seems fair.
Can't say I like the design for limited either. Seems like a huge boon to those who are randomly carrying around busted old cards. I can't see any universe in which spike is fun to play against, really. Maybe that's the point?
EDIT: I guess in fairness you couldn't put ALL of the p9 into your hand with normal life totals. There's still probably an easy way to win with it, though. tinker + lotus + mox with BSC in your deck? Or maybe channel + lotus + emrakul? That ends up costing...42 life if you don't pay any of spike's phyrexian mana. So I guess you gotta wait until you have 2BB to win the game.
Well, you'd still have to follow the Commander rules of having things in your color identity. So you can't search for any of the P9 cards save for Mox Jet and Black Lotus. You couldn't search for Tinker, either. But I get your point. It'd be like running Richard Garfield, Ph.D. as your commander as well. There're bound to be some cards to get banned.
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Well, you'd still have to follow the Commander rules of having things in your color identity. So you can't search for any of the P9 cards save for Mox Jet and Black Lotus. You couldn't search for Tinker, either. But I get your point. It'd be like running Richard Garfield, Ph.D. as your commander as well. There're bound to be some cards to get banned.
Well, you can obviously argue that spike simply don't work since edh doesn't have sideboards or anything. If you had wishboards I guess you'd need to follow CI. As printed on the card, though, I see no reason why you'd need to follow CI rules, though.
EDIT: also I'd assume you can't have banned cards in your wishboards normally (though wishboards are a house rule so...?), so the only way he even works is if you're following the actual text on the card, in which case obv there'd be no restrictions on CI. Unless you explicitly said "you can use him as your commander but you have to follow CI rules for your wishboard even though you aren't following the banned list for your sideboard" I don't see why CI would apply.
Sidebar: I actually wonder how he's going to work in draft. Normally I believe wishes only hit your sideboard in draft, but presumably he won't have any targets since uncards aren't "banned" technically. So...he's a 4 mana 1/1?
I get what you're saying; I too would find it very unamusing to play against someone using cards like Vile Bile, R&D's Secret Lair, etc. And I also like your idea of planning it before hand. However, with certain guidelines to avoid overtly annoying things, like an acceptable list of cards that the playgroup can agree upon before-hand. So it would be good to have some kind of way to break these silver-bordered cards or use a silver-bordered legendary creature as your commander. I think that it would be a bit fun to allow at the least the more viable silver-bordered cards to be used in such a way.
However, for those that are completely and totally against any kind of silver-bordered card becoming legal to use, I pose this:
Say back in the day someone won a multiplayer commander match by playing Kaervek's Spite with Academy Rector in play. Then, upon the rector's death, search for The Cheese Stands Alone. Totally possible if your elder dragon was Chromium. You would probably become annoyed and angry because a player snuck in a silver-bordered card and won the match that way. Even though the format is casual, it does have its strict set of rules of which - I totally, wholeheartedly, 100% agree - should always be followed because that way everyone's on the same page. It's like the rounding rules in scientific calculations; they're there for a reason. Now, fast-forward a couple years in the future and say that same player has Oloro, Ageless Ascetic as commander. And then proceeds to cast Kaervek's Spite with Academy Rector in play. Then, upon the rector's death, tutors for Barren Glory. How is this win any different? (Apart from presumably The Cheese Stands Alone giving you the win the moment the condition is met (although, that would probably be clarified in the Oracle update come the release of Unstable).)
BGU [Primer] Sidisi, Brood Tyrant BGU | BG [Primer] Mazirek, Kraul Death Priest BG | G [Primer] Polukranos, World Eater G
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Now, they do have a bit more leeway regarding "design intent" as MaRo is still around and he had a major part in both previous Un- Sets so it is possible they change the Oracle text in a different way than other previous cards but we need to wait until it actually happens.
As for your example, yes, they are completely different based entirely on the point that The Cheese Stands Alone was not black bordered. Yes, they decided there was a way to do it in Black Border and that is great. However, that can't be a deciding factor in whether a card should be allowed. There are plenty of cards on the line and MaRo has stated they use the Un sets as testing grounds for potential future black bordered ideas. Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug is a good example. This doesn't change the fact that Rocket-Powered Turbo Slug is an Un card. Yes, if your group is fine with Silver Bordered cards, use whatever you want. But there are those among us who don't want to deal with the wacky rules interpretations that Un cards bring to the table. Either you allow all silver bordered cards or none and there are plenty that are frustrating to play against that I lean towards allowing none.
I agree, the rewording would probably require a trigger phrasing or a state-based action phrasing.
I bring up the topic precisely because I want people's opinions on the matter. It's also a very interesting subject to me. However, paying $15 to draft a set which I will have even less use for than the draft-matters cards in the Conspiracy sets is a bit disconcerting. I would like to be able to use these cards I'm buying.
Commander seems to be the go-to casual/kitchen-table format (which is why I quit every other format to play commander). I follow all the rules whether I agree with them or not. Like bannings, unbannings, and the change from partial paris mulligans. But discussing things beforehand with a pod is usually the way to go. For example, very frequently does my pod play multiplayer commander with planechase. Also, when Theros block ended, there was a time we'd play commander by starting the game with three heroes on the battlefield. These were treated as permanents in play for effect of any rule or card. That was actually pretty fun. However, none of those situations required deck-building. Including silver-bordered cards in a cardpool requires designing and building your deck around it. Making commander decks with only silver-bordered cards would be too limiting and you'd have to include bad cards just to get the card count up to 100 (for those who remember having to include cards from Homelands in your deck when Standard required you to include cards from every legal set). Choosing from ~450 just won't cut it.
This is why I'm hopeful in what MaRo posted in tumblr. Would there be a subcategory of Commander that allows for some silver-bordered cards to be used? Would they all be legal? Would some be banned? Would you be able to mix black and silver? Would that be too broken? There's a lot of questions I have and I'm just worried about the answers.
I'm not too serious a player but I'm also not Un-set level wacky. If I wanna play games that are purely silver-bordered I might as well play Munchkin instead.
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Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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That's very interesting and I've never heard of it; how does that work?
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That said, multicolor cards usually mean lands! Need we say more! ???
Silver border duals lands! (And foil!) I seriously hope true duals or tri lands searchable with no drawbacks are printed in this set!
EDH/Commander: Karn silver golem (foiled), Narset combo, Maelstrom Wanderer random goodies, Nekusar grixis draw stuff, freyalise, Gissa Zombies!, marchesa obliterate,
Prosh just wins!,
--- Will WOTC just visit Cybertron already! ----
Lol, who knows what things can happen in an Un-set, but I doubt we'll get any dual or tri lands. There will be multicolored cards but they'll only be allied colored. So very easy to play in limited draft with just 2 types of basic lands in the deck. Allied colors receive way too much support in MtG. It'd be even more of an inbalance if even in an Un-set (which we get practically every 8 years average) we get allied colored lands. Right now there's an inbalance in tango lands, bicycle lands, and the SOI hand check lands (the ones that check if you have a specific type in hand rather than in play). That's a real pain when playing commander. Only recently were the enemy fast lands printed. Many many years apart from the Mirrodin 2 block.
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Conspiracy is a good analogy here. There are a large number of cards in Conspiracy that are completely useless in all formats except cube (which isn't a significant factor because there are way fewer cubes per player than there are EDH decks per player). In fact pretty much the only thing that propped up CNS prices were chase reprints and a couple lucky Legacy chase cards like Leovold.
Assuming they're not going to just have Steamflogger Boss and basic lands for black-bordered cards, I think having a good 10-15 black-bordered cards that are Legacy and Commander-legal would be a good solution.
Another possibility would be to have the whole set be commander-legal and simply design the cards to not be annoying as hell to play against like Unhinged was like (it should be noted that Sword of Dungeons and Dragons is the only known card from this set so far; all the other silver-bordered cards were Hascon promos).
A third option would be to have a small 10-card whitelist of UN-cards. There are a few of them such as The Cheese Stands Alone or Blast from the Past which are perfectly serviceable in normal Magic, though without some way to elegantly signify the whitelist (like black borders mentioned above) tacking this on the banlist section of the Commander rules is a tad unwieldy.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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That's a great idea. But I really doubt they add any other black-bordered cards in future Un-sets. Maybe they're experimenting with Steamflogger Boss to dip their toes in adding black-bordered cards in an Un-set. However, Steamflogger Boss is in no way a chase card. In fact, it'll still be pretty useless outside of Unstable.
White-bordering certain Un-cards would be an excellent idea. Maybe releasing a sort of "greatest hits" of silver-bordered cards in white border (although many people dislike using white-bordered cards). But I get what you mean. Releasing the more playable and least annoying silver-bordered cards in black-border will undoubtedly solve many problems. For one thing, you'd be able to use those silver-bordered versions if you have them already. #2, you'd be able to actively play with these cards in drafts because you could still have them afterwards. They'd actually be worth buying because you'd be able to use them outside of Cube or limited draft.
Sounds interesting. I don't think that a store would crack open a box to have people draft it only to run the risk of the cards not being pack fresh. Even if you pay $0 and return the cards, there's still a chance that the cards won't make it back or they won't be in mint condition. If I owned a store, I don't think I would have a phantom draft where people wouldn't pay anything and I'd keep the cards. Maybe if I cracked open boxes in order to sell singles and I had friends that wouldn't mess up the cards then maybe I would do that way. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone with a store nor do I know people who buy boxes in order to draft. For the moment, I draft in stores if the price isn't too high. Cracking open a choice rare and then not being to able to claim it from the pot afterwards is kind of a bummer.
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To be honest, I wouldn't run Sovereign's Reign whilst running WorldKnit, so nowadays IF conspiracies were legal, my main deck would be (minus my commander and all that occurs with conspiracies) 71 cards.
Also I feel I should point out that City of Ass is about $5 right now and that would skyrocket because it is the best-strictly-mana-producing-land ever printed. This would also probably scare a lot of parents away if they knew Timberly or Jeffifer were trying to trade (or worse, successfully traded) for such a card.
Would it be okay for someone to order you to get them X cups of water, where X is equal to the number of cups in the house by using Ashnod's Coupon+Prototype Portal+Thran Weaponry+March of the Machines+Intruder Alarm?
Does Booster Tutor have to be a booster you own?
Can your opponent sneak a Cheatyface that you own into the game under their control by being extra cheaty (it wasn't an EDH game, but it did happen[still not sure if it was legal], but it was a really crazy game!)
How would Clam session work online?
There are a lot of cards that don't make sense in Unsets. There a lot of overpriced cards in Unsets. There are honestly some I wouldn't mind seeing (like clambassadors in a donate style deck.
The big question is whether TPTB want to double the size of the ban list or not, BECAUSE I CALL LAZINESS AS A POSSIBLE FACTOR! Laziness does also cause innovation though....
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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R Zada Arcane Storm
RBU Marchesa
GWU Estrid
GWR Samut?
URB Kess
(R/W)(U/B) Akiri & Silas
BWR Alesha
R Neheb Dragons
G Nylea Wurms
W Darien
U Tetsuko
Like others in this thread, I'm okay with 90% of un-cards. It's cards like Loose Lips or Cheatyface that make it unplayable...
un-guy: "I choose 'I concede the game'"
me: "okay, but that doesn't actually make someone concede."
un-guy: "Yes it does."
(30 minute argument)
other un-guy: "hey, while you guys were arguing I snuck in these 20 cheatyfaces from outside of the game."
first un-guy: "hah, wow, nice. I scoop."
me: "no, the developers released errata for that card; it only works from your hand."
first un-guy: "yeah, but it says you 'cheat' them, so you can ignore that."
me: "no, that's stupid, you're stupid, and I'm never playing with un-cards again because of this idiocy."
Unfortunately there is supposed to be at least one dexterity-based card (like Chaos Orb) in the set, so my hopes are not high. I don't remember where I read that, though.
- Rabid Wombat
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No need to protect Staying power, just cast something like Silence or orim's chant or counter merciless eviction with Render silent and you are good.
To be honest, even if I would love playing with Staying power (just to think about what Jareth, Leonine titan could become with) it just wont happend T_T
Edit: if you play Angel's grace under Staying power your opponents cant win the game
Thanks!
Yeah, those are the kinds of things I want to avoid. From the look of things with what's been spoiled so far, Unstable seems to be the most stable of the three silver-bordered sets. They look incredibly playable and awesome. If I were to draft, it would definitely be a bummer to miss out on using these cards elsewhere. Hopefully a format is developed where certain silver-bordered cards are allowed. Maybe that's why Oracle will finally be updated to deal with Unglued and Unhinged?
I like your list; it's pretty similar to mine. Maybe after the release of Unstable and the Oracle update a new format or variant style of play will arise based on silver-bordered cards? If not, I'm all up for trying to design one.
From what I understand with Staying Power is that it records the effects that should've ended at the end of turn step. When it leaves the battlefield, then those delayed triggers occur at the end of turn step.
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More specifically, I think certain silver boarder cards are more feasible to play with as opposed to others.
Dunes of Zairo
SHANDALAR
Innistrad - The Darkest Night
~THE RAVNICAN CONSORTIUM~
A Community Set
Commander: Allies & Adversaries
Can't say I like the design for limited either. Seems like a huge boon to those who are randomly carrying around busted old cards. I can't see any universe in which spike is fun to play against, really. Maybe that's the point?
EDIT: I guess in fairness you couldn't put ALL of the p9 into your hand with normal life totals. There's still probably an easy way to win with it, though. tinker + lotus + mox with BSC in your deck? Or maybe channel + lotus + emrakul? That ends up costing...42 life if you don't pay any of spike's phyrexian mana. So I guess you gotta wait until you have 2BB to win the game.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Well, you'd still have to follow the Commander rules of having things in your color identity. So you can't search for any of the P9 cards save for Mox Jet and Black Lotus. You couldn't search for Tinker, either. But I get your point. It'd be like running Richard Garfield, Ph.D. as your commander as well. There're bound to be some cards to get banned.
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My YouTube Channel:
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EDIT: also I'd assume you can't have banned cards in your wishboards normally (though wishboards are a house rule so...?), so the only way he even works is if you're following the actual text on the card, in which case obv there'd be no restrictions on CI. Unless you explicitly said "you can use him as your commander but you have to follow CI rules for your wishboard even though you aren't following the banned list for your sideboard" I don't see why CI would apply.
Sidebar: I actually wonder how he's going to work in draft. Normally I believe wishes only hit your sideboard in draft, but presumably he won't have any targets since uncards aren't "banned" technically. So...he's a 4 mana 1/1?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6