I was looking through the Ixalan spoiler today and came across Vona, Butcher of Magan. A quick search showed that Vona wasnt being discussed at all, so I decided to get the ball rolling on a new thread.
When contemplating Vona being the commander of a deck, I initially dismissed her. A 4/4 for 5 with lifelink and vigilance is okay, but the only on your turn clause of her activated ability was off putting. Further, having to wait a turn to use the ability isnt ideal. Sure, a Vindicate every turn is nice so long as your deck is built to fuel it, but its a very telegraphed play.
What are your thoughts of Vona leading an Orzhov deck? Does a commander like Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim just do it better? Or is Vona better since she doesnt fall into the same sac/recur theme that a lot of Orzhov legendaries fall into?
Initial reaction I was a little disappointed, mostly just because I feel like w/b really didn't need another life matters commander. However looking back at the card I feel like that aspect is actually much less than I first thought. While seven life isn't nothing it's not a huge loss in commander, this along with the fact that s/he has lifelink means that they will support their own ability for the most part without you having to build that into the deck too much. I've always liked tap abilities on creatures with vigilance just because of the tricks it enables. Calling it sorcery speed is a bit misleading because it still can be used in combat, and it interacts very well with Reconnaissance, which is another thing I really like. Overall I don't think it quite inspires me to make an orzhov deck right on the spot but it's definitely one I'll be keeping in mind for the future.
She feels more like a support card for Karlov than her own commander. Ideally, you want a way to get that life back (especially when black is very life hungry).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Level 1 Judge
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
When I first saw the card spoiled, I was pretty happy to see her and was immediatly thinking of making a deck with her. I've always been a fan of the Orzhov combination, but I felt other commanders like Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, Athreos, God of Passage, Teysa, Orzhov Scion, and Daxos the Returned and especially Karlov of the Ghost Council are too specialized. Each of them has a deck, but that deck is very geared to doing things one way and one way only so as to make the commander work. Vona is much more generalist, which is good because she can be at the helm of any kind of deck; the draw back is she doesn't exactly tell you the best way to build her either.
When I first saw the card spoiled, I was pretty happy to see her and was immediatly thinking of making a deck with her. I've always been a fan of the Orzhov combination, but I felt other commanders like Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim, Athreos, God of Passage, Teysa, Orzhov Scion, and Daxos the Returned and especially Karlov of the Ghost Council are too specialized. Each of them has a deck, but that deck is very geared to doing things one way and one way only so as to make the commander work. Vona is much more generalist, which is good because she can be at the helm of any kind of deck; the draw back is she doesn't exactly tell you the best way to build her either.
This is a pretty good and fair assessment. One that I think really sums Vona up.
It also highlights, why I don't see her as a commander on her own. At least, for me. Because Vona is not nailed down to a particular stratagem, I feel like it would take too much experimentation for me to get her right. By that, I mean that I don't know what it would take for me to enjoy a deck built her. To get the deck just right so that it functions, it works and I enjoy how it plays. A commander with a clear strategy or at least, a clear leaning, always helps me to figure out the deck: it's limits, what I like to run, what I don't like to run, etc. It also provides more of a safety net. If I were to take the deck in a particular direction and it doesn't really work out, a commander with clear strategies/leanings always has those to fall back on and help realign the deck.
Vona to me, just seems better a lieutenant, not a commander but that's just me.
You want some lifegain matters cards and ways to untap. Or even better, ways to copy the activated ability. This sounds an awful lot like Illusionist's Bracers for brutal effect, with effects such as Repay in Kind @ the top end to make everyone else feel the pain you're taking upon yourself. Maybe even some Mirror Universe/Soul Conduit.
I'm actually beginning to think I should put her and Karlov in my Ayli deck to set the scene for a really exile focused control deck. Exile tribal, if you will.
Vona strikes me as more of a support card. Others have already mentioned the typical suspects (Ayli, Uncle Karlov, etc), I'd also add the new Licia, Sanguine Tribune to the list. Then, there are cards like Children of Korlis and Tainted Sigil to offset how much life you're paying (of course, combine with a Sanguine Bond for pain). Having a potentially reusable Vindicate-like effect seems solid, if a little slow (being both 5 mana and a creature).
They played it a little bit too safe with Vona, slap on flying or remove the your-turn limitation from the ability and you've got a perfectly serviceable cardboard. As is, she's mainly stuck in a support role as you all are saying, and isn't even particularly dazzling at it either.
I like her! Especially in my Edgar Markov-deck she will definitely get that life back herself.
At the moment the ability is basically 3 life; but she will get easily boosted to 7/7 which makes the ability free.
She feels more like a support card for Karlov than her own commander. Ideally, you want a way to get that life back (especially when black is very life hungry).
I saw her the same way. Besides Karlov, there's also Oloro and both incarnations of the ghostmafia. Actually, she's probably good with any WB commander, if you're playing any amount of lifegain, e.g. Suture Priest in Ghave, lifelink creatures in Karador or Teneb, every vampire-themed card in Orzhov or Mardu vamps, that sort of thing. (At 7 life, it starts to get expensive to repeat, but you only want to play her if she's repeatable; otherwise, why not just run Angel of Despair and Vindicate and hit lands as well?)
Of course, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim does many of the same things better. One thing that bugs me is the way she has so many clauses (tap to activate, only on your turn) relative to Ayli when neither can destroy lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Sorcery speed hurts a lot, especially if you stack her up against Ayli, Karlov, Teysa, or Vish Kal. Even Triad of Fates can hit things at instant speed if you build in untap effects. True, Ayli is the only one from that group that can hit noncreatures, but hitting noncreatures at instant speed is frequently even more important than hitting creatures at instant speed; at least creatures (often) have to wait a turn cycle to become a threat.
So... lets start with the stats. I think a 4/4 for 5 with lifelink and vigilance is actually quite reasonable. My biggest concerns with them as the commander is I worry that everyone will freak out and spot remove the heck out of you because of fear that its going to be aimed at them.
I am not even really all that worried about the ability being sorcery speed, I question if you will still have your commander by the time you would untap to be able to use them. The combination of a tap ability, the lack of haste or hexproof, plus just fear of being targeted makes me wonder if you might get targeted to the level that some commanders like Brago, King Eternal get targeted.
Shy of the concern over people spot removing you, BW has really cool and good support for lifegain builds so I think it would be cool... if you don't think you are going to eat spot removal for days.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Sorcery speed hurts a lot, especially if you stack her up against Ayli, Karlov, Teysa, or Vish Kal. Even Triad of Fates can hit things at instant speed if you build in untap effects. True, Ayli is the only one from that group that can hit noncreatures, but hitting noncreatures at instant speed is frequently even more important than hitting creatures at instant speed; at least creatures (often) have to wait a turn cycle to become a threat.
Yep. Sorcery speed is the thing that hurts it most IMO. When it comes to removal, I think of it in broad categories:
Instant-speed removal
Counterspells
Boardwipes
"Advantage" removal (either two-for-ones, cantrips, or has a body)
Synergy removal
This is none of those. Like I said, she will be relegated to Ayli #2 (or Vindicate #5 or something).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I agree with 3Drinks that she is a Illusionist's Bracers/Rings of Brighthearth type of commander to maximize destructive power. The life-loss is mitigated through the million lifegain effects available in Orzhov, but I especially like the idea of Children of Korlis and Tainted Sigil. I think that with only a minimal amount of work, Vona can be a good Orzhov control general.
The restriction to sorcery speed means that the ability is foreseeable, but in contrast to other options like Ayli or Karlov, it doesn't require you to jump through hoops first - if it's your turn and you have at least 8 life, you can use it. And it hits everything except lands. That makes Vona slow, but versatile and relatively easy to use. Maybe she isn't a "competitive" choice, but I can see her as one of those generals that makes your deck seem deceptively underpowered despite actually being quite potent.
The restriction to sorcery speed means that the ability is foreseeable, but in contrast to other options like Ayli or Karlov, it doesn't require you to jump through hoops first - if it's your turn and you have at least 8 life, you can use it. And it hits everything except lands. That makes Vona slow, but versatile and relatively easy to use. Maybe she isn't a "competitive" choice, but I can see her as one of those generals that makes your deck seem deceptively underpowered despite actually being quite potent.
I'd forgive the sorcery speed if she hit lands. The same reason I'm willing to play Vindicate.
Of course, I would be tossing in things to grant haste (Akroma's Memorial comes to mind) to make sure she doesn't die to Hero's Downfall or Putrefy or Path to Exile the turn she hits the field without taking something with her.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
You want some lifegain matters cards and ways to untap. Or even better, ways to copy the activated ability. This sounds an awful lot like Illusionist's Bracers for brutal effect, with effects such as Repay in Kind @ the top end to make everyone else feel the pain you're taking upon yourself. Maybe even some Mirror Universe/Soul Conduit.
Gonna re-bump this. Seems the best way to use Vona the most efficiently.
When contemplating Vona being the commander of a deck, I initially dismissed her. A 4/4 for 5 with lifelink and vigilance is okay, but the only on your turn clause of her activated ability was off putting. Further, having to wait a turn to use the ability isnt ideal. Sure, a Vindicate every turn is nice so long as your deck is built to fuel it, but its a very telegraphed play.
What are your thoughts of Vona leading an Orzhov deck? Does a commander like Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim just do it better? Or is Vona better since she doesnt fall into the same sac/recur theme that a lot of Orzhov legendaries fall into?
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
This is a pretty good and fair assessment. One that I think really sums Vona up.
It also highlights, why I don't see her as a commander on her own. At least, for me. Because Vona is not nailed down to a particular stratagem, I feel like it would take too much experimentation for me to get her right. By that, I mean that I don't know what it would take for me to enjoy a deck built her. To get the deck just right so that it functions, it works and I enjoy how it plays. A commander with a clear strategy or at least, a clear leaning, always helps me to figure out the deck: it's limits, what I like to run, what I don't like to run, etc. It also provides more of a safety net. If I were to take the deck in a particular direction and it doesn't really work out, a commander with clear strategies/leanings always has those to fall back on and help realign the deck.
Vona to me, just seems better a lieutenant, not a commander but that's just me.
BK'rrik Goodstuff
GWSythis Enchantress
URYusri Coin Flip
BRGKorvold Tokens
BGUYarok Lands Matter
WUBRaffine Looter
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
At the moment the ability is basically 3 life; but she will get easily boosted to 7/7 which makes the ability free.
I saw her the same way. Besides Karlov, there's also Oloro and both incarnations of the ghost mafia. Actually, she's probably good with any WB commander, if you're playing any amount of lifegain, e.g. Suture Priest in Ghave, lifelink creatures in Karador or Teneb, every vampire-themed card in Orzhov or Mardu vamps, that sort of thing. (At 7 life, it starts to get expensive to repeat, but you only want to play her if she's repeatable; otherwise, why not just run Angel of Despair and Vindicate and hit lands as well?)
Of course, Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim does many of the same things better. One thing that bugs me is the way she has so many clauses (tap to activate, only on your turn) relative to Ayli when neither can destroy lands.
On phasing:
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
I am not even really all that worried about the ability being sorcery speed, I question if you will still have your commander by the time you would untap to be able to use them. The combination of a tap ability, the lack of haste or hexproof, plus just fear of being targeted makes me wonder if you might get targeted to the level that some commanders like Brago, King Eternal get targeted.
Shy of the concern over people spot removing you, BW has really cool and good support for lifegain builds so I think it would be cool... if you don't think you are going to eat spot removal for days.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
In the 99, it also remains unimpressive. I would rather be dropping a major setup card at 5 mana.
Examples:
archangel of thune, necrologia, cathar's crusade, sanguine bond as some examples.
Orzhov has lots and lots of very high impact cards around 5 mana, I don't think this makes the cut.
Yep. Sorcery speed is the thing that hurts it most IMO. When it comes to removal, I think of it in broad categories:
Instant-speed removal
Counterspells
Boardwipes
"Advantage" removal (either two-for-ones, cantrips, or has a body)
Synergy removal
This is none of those. Like I said, she will be relegated to Ayli #2 (or Vindicate #5 or something).
On phasing:
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
The restriction to sorcery speed means that the ability is foreseeable, but in contrast to other options like Ayli or Karlov, it doesn't require you to jump through hoops first - if it's your turn and you have at least 8 life, you can use it. And it hits everything except lands. That makes Vona slow, but versatile and relatively easy to use. Maybe she isn't a "competitive" choice, but I can see her as one of those generals that makes your deck seem deceptively underpowered despite actually being quite potent.
Unless you want to play Vampires, but then Edgar Markov seems infinitely better.
Could fit in any of those decks though.
Arahbo, Kitty Kat Beatdown Decklist
Mizzix of the Izmagnus Decklist
Breya, Etherium Shaper
Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow Decklist
My Current Set Cube Lists:
Kamigawa Re-Experience
Ravnica, City of Guilds Re-Experience
Alara Re-Experience
I'd forgive the sorcery speed if she hit lands. The same reason I'm willing to play Vindicate.
Of course, I would be tossing in things to grant haste (Akroma's Memorial comes to mind) to make sure she doesn't die to Hero's Downfall or Putrefy or Path to Exile the turn she hits the field without taking something with her.
On phasing:
Gonna re-bump this. Seems the best way to use Vona the most efficiently.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.