I tend to pack much more removal than I probably need. I could see putting one back in at some point, I just wanted to have a feel for what the community thought, as I see the 3 cards as pretty close together.
This is nowhere near "more removal than [you] probably need". Some of these do nothing on their own, and others do nothing for a turn cycle. That list only has 5 spot-removal cards that immediately get rid of a threat, plus two sweepers.
That's not to say your list contains bad cards (although I must say I'm skeptical about Krosan Vorine), but you could easily run more removal.
Well, when you put it that way it doesn't seem like a lot.
I thought maybe I had a bit much with both Oblation and Song, being at 7 insta spot removals.
Artifacts and enchantments tend to scare me more than anything, as I can usually run over most creatures. With Beast within, Aura Shards, Qasali SLingers, Qasali Pridemage and Austere Command (and to a lesser extent Tragic Arrogance.) I should be fine.
Song of the Dryads - my issue is that its something that its value is very conditional on what sort of tactics your opponents are running. You can Song of the Dryad player B and player C might need pop an Akroma's Vengeance or something that would pop it. The more noncreature sweepers you see in your meta as well as spot removal for enchantments the worse it gets. Its kind of nice that you could seal someone's commander away but like I was saying, its value even there is very dependent on what kind of meta you are in and what people play.
Oblation - Its downside of an opponent drawing 2 is always there but I feel its so much less conditional than Song of the Dryad. I dont think that an opponent drawing 2 cards is actually all that bad as in a general turn you draw one and your opponents each draw one so you really draw 1 card for every 3 your opponents draw. In a sense yourself drawing a single card is often worth three cards drawn by opponents in this sense as just a normal turn rotation. You cant value a single opponent drawing 2 the same way in multiplayer due to that. I will say however that I have mostly stopped running Oblation of late in part because I think Unexpectedly Absent has mostly replaced it as a consideration in my mind.
There is always the consideration of if you are playing a draw go deck or a spellslinger it will make Oblation a little stronger. In the same sense if you are playing an enchantress deck it might bump Song of the Dryads a little stronger. In both cases I think the default is that Beast Within is just unanimously stronger unless you find yourself making a specific kind of deck.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Yeah, oblation is the worst. Giving your opponent (usually. how big the chance is that you remove your own stuff ?) 2 cards is never be good in any conditions.
I think, song of the dryads and beast within is 2 good cards, depending on your meta. Both cards is a great removal/answer to the problematic permanent in play.
My meta is running a lot of Gods, like xenagos, purphoros, and iroas as his commander, So dryads is a better choice of me, no doubt.
I don't know about which is "worst", they are all useful. I like Oblation for being an instant speed dealing with indestructible, and in a pinch you can rid yourself a token for two cards. Beast Within similarly being a universal removal that gives opponent a token, one likely smaller than your own monsters and suffers from bounce. Song of the Dryads turning things into land deals with all permanents and could be recurred via cards like Sun Titan.
Yeah, oblation is the worst. Giving your opponent (usually. how big the chance is that you remove your own stuff ?) 2 cards is never be good in any conditions.
I've used Oblation on my own token for cards, and save my creature from destroy/exile (then draw some), and replaces your general with two cards is also positive.
Oblation stopped being good as soon as the tuck rule changed. White has plenty of ways to exile any type of permanent without 3-for-1-ing themselves. Unless they're about to die, a 3/3 token is less valuable to the opponent than drawing 2 cards, and even though Song is regrettably sorcery speed, it's a great way to permanently remove an opponent's commander from the game until they find enchantment removal. Because it turns the creature into a land, unlike Lignify and Darksteel mutation they can't just sacrifice it or play a removal/sweeper spell after the fact to put the card back into the command zone, they have to specifically have either enchantment or land removal.
Oblation stopped being good as soon as the tuck rule changed. White has plenty of ways to exile any type of permanent without 3-for-1-ing themselves. Unless they're about to die, a 3/3 token is less valuable to the opponent than drawing 2 cards, and even though Song is regrettably sorcery speed, it's a great way to permanently remove an opponent's commander from the game until they find enchantment removal. Because it turns the creature into a land, unlike Lignify and Darksteel mutation they can't just sacrifice it or play a removal/sweeper spell after the fact to put the card back into the command zone, they have to specifically have either enchantment or land removal.
Oblation isn't a 3-for-1 in multiplayer by any stretch when you have multiple opponents. It's card disadvantage, sure, but most single-target removal is. That's the price you pay for the reactivity, tempo, and precision they afford.
Also draw isn't so bad. Late-game half their draws are fairly low-impact (lands, ramp) anyway, and some cards might be good for you to give them (i.e. if they draw a sweeper and you're both behind on board, or a removal spell they use on someone else). It's not nothing, sure, but it's not a huge downside in my book. The flexibility is huge, and being instant-speed is massively important.
All 3 have strong cases. song of the dryads is overall the weakest for being sorcery speed, except that it's a great way to disable commanders fairly permanently. I tend to want to play all 3 if I'm building a control deck.
How do you find room for all three? Any deck with White is going to have better options available before you consider running all three. And that's even before considering things like budget and card availability.
How do you find room for all three? Any deck with White is going to have better options available before you consider running all three. And that's even before considering things like budget and card availability.
I'm not sure why availability would be a concern so long as the internet exists and the card isn't 1996 world champion. Personally I wouldn't consider any of the cards expensive but oblation is the cheapest.
Depends on what the deck wants, but as far as targeted white removal it's pretty high on the list. Not as high as stp, but pretty damn high. Having a 3-mana panic button that solves most problems is really nice to have available.
In multiplayer formats, value is a lot less important than people think it is. Value is so easy to generate and to destroy - one card can draw you a dozen cards, and one card can discard then. One card can build a massive board state, and one card can destroy it. The absolute most important thing for winning is simply to not die. Have just the right answers at just the right time so that your opponents can't quite close out the game. As long as you can do that, your enemies will take care of each other for you.
Oblation is the right answer in a lot of cases where something like song might be too slow, or might force you to tip your hand too early. Although as I said, song does have its uses, and is certainly among the best options if you're playing mono-green.
Most version of my phelddagrif deck run all three (alongside lots of other great removal), except my 2DH version which doesn't run song as it exceeds the allowed cost per card of that format.
I'm not sure why availability would be a concern so long as the internet exists and the card isn't 1996 world champion. Personally I wouldn't consider any of the cards expensive but oblation is the cheapest.
Depends on what the deck wants, but as far as targeted white removal it's pretty high on the list. Not as high as stp, but pretty damn high. Having a 3-mana panic button that solves most problems is really nice to have available.
In multiplayer formats, value is a lot less important than people think it is. Value is so easy to generate and to destroy - one card can draw you a dozen cards, and one card can discard then. One card can build a massive board state, and one card can destroy it. The absolute most important thing for winning is simply to not die. Have just the right answers at just the right time so that your opponents can't quite close out the game. As long as you can do that, your enemies will take care of each other for you.
Oblation is the right answer in a lot of cases where something like song might be too slow, or might force you to tip your hand too early. Although as I said, song does have its uses, and is certainly among the best options if you're playing mono-green.
Most version of my phelddagrif deck run all three (alongside lots of other great removal), except my 2DH version which doesn't run song as it exceeds the allowed cost per card of that format.
So the only time to play all three is when you're group-hugging or purposefully un-powering- basically, Phelddagrif. If that's the answer, it's a good answer and it's legit. Some cards are very flavorful in certain decks or certain builds of decks. Suboptimal for fun is okay. I'm not against that.
However, the first 4 paragraphs just skirt around the question or try to build a strange case for playing all three. Remember, the question was why use all three? Not, why not use any one of these three?
I disagree with some of your statements.
1. The absolute most important thing to winning is not just surviving. Even if that was the case, none of these cards are going to be the "right answer" to help you come back.
2. Oblation is not very high on white's targeted removal. If it is, it's just over-played. Few competitive decks can find space for Oblation. Flexibility is overrated. Even if you value flexibility, white's options are too varied to justify using it in a tuned deck.
3. How come you compare running Oblation vs. Song of Dryads? The point you're making is running them all.
I agree with some of your statements.
1. Phelddagrif is legit place to run this package.
2. Value is overrated. However, I'm not saying this package is poor to run because of that. You're correct in most cases to focus on the card drawing part. Because most players do mistakenly focus on that. However, I'm not most players. I don't mind Oblation drawing your opponent cards. This package is poor to run because there are better options. The versatility of targeting all permanent-types isn't worth the tempo loss of having so much 3cc removal in your hand.
3. Of course, you wrote about Oblation more than the Green options. Green has less removal. Beast Within and Song of Dryads is higher on the list than Oblation in their respective colors.
So the only time to play all three is when you're group-hugging or purposefully un-powering- basically, Phelddagrif. If that's the answer, it's a good answer and it's legit. Some cards are very flavorful in certain decks or certain builds of decks. Suboptimal for fun is okay. I'm not against that.
However, the first 4 paragraphs just skirt around the question or try to build a strange case for playing all three. Remember, the question was why use all three? Not, why not use any one of these three?
I disagree with some of your statements.
1. The absolute most important thing to winning is not just surviving. Even if that was the case, none of these cards are going to be the "right answer" to help you come back.
2. Oblation is not very high on white's targeted removal. If it is, it's just over-played. Few competitive decks can find space for Oblation. Flexibility is overrated. Even if you value flexibility, white's options are too varied to justify using it in a tuned deck.
3. How come you compare running Oblation vs. Song of Dryads? The point you're making is running them all.
I agree with some of your statements.
1. Phelddagrif is legit place to run this package.
2. Value is overrated. However, I'm not saying this package is poor to run because of that. You're correct in most cases to focus on the card drawing part. Because most players do mistakenly focus on that. However, I'm not most players. I don't mind Oblation drawing your opponent cards. This package is poor to run because there are better options. The versatility of targeting all permanent-types isn't worth the tempo loss of having so much 3cc removal in your hand.
3. Of course, you wrote about Oblation more than the Green options. Green has less removal. Beast Within and Song of Dryads is higher on the list than Oblation in their respective colors.
My Phelddagrif is not suboptimal, and it's definitely not group hug. It may not be built to win in the simplest possible way, but it is built to freakin' win. Sometimes the surest way to win isn't to play the most powerful possible cards.
Anyway,
1) Not sure what you mean. The way to not die is often to remove some specific permanent. If you want to come back, first you have to not die. Having the right answer at the right time is how you do that. After you avoid dying, then you can worry about coming back. "Coming back" is not a mandatory part of not dying anyway. You just have to not die. And then keep doing it.
2) White has stp, pte, unexpectedly absent....after that I think I take oblation in terms of spot removal (and it's really a toss up between it and UA). I'd say 4th is a pretty solid ranking. What else are you ranking higher? Also, flexibility is not overrated at all imo, but I guess it depends how highly you think it's rated.
3) Concensus seemed to be that beast within was the best and I think that's fair. tuck vs destroy is arguable (I think I'd prefer tuck) but a 3/3 is a lot less powerful than 2 cards so I think it's better on balance, even if the 2 cards aren't a big downside. But a lot of people were bashing oblation so I felt compelled to defend its honor, which generally means comparing it to the other cards. Although I think also it's a strong card just in a vacuum. Song of the dryads is a much less interesting card to talk about, though, since people aren't thrown off by the "bad value" like they are with oblation.
My Phelddagrif is not suboptimal, and it's definitely not group hug. It may not be built to win in the simplest possible way, but it is built to freakin' win. Sometimes the surest way to win isn't to play the most powerful possible cards.
Anyway,
1) Not sure what you mean. The way to not die is often to remove some specific permanent. If you want to come back, first you have to not die. Having the right answer at the right time is how you do that. After you avoid dying, then you can worry about coming back. "Coming back" is not a mandatory part of not dying anyway. You just have to not die. And then keep doing it.
2) White has stp, pte, unexpectedly absent....after that I think I take oblation in terms of spot removal (and it's really a toss up between it and UA). I'd say 4th is a pretty solid ranking. What else are you ranking higher? Also, flexibility is not overrated at all imo, but I guess it depends how highly you think it's rated.
3) Concensus seemed to be that beast within was the best and I think that's fair. tuck vs destroy is arguable (I think I'd prefer tuck) but a 3/3 is a lot less powerful than 2 cards so I think it's better on balance, even if the 2 cards aren't a big downside. But a lot of people were bashing oblation so I felt compelled to defend its honor, which generally means comparing it to the other cards. Although I think also it's a strong card just in a vacuum. Song of the dryads is a much less interesting card to talk about, though, since people aren't thrown off by the "bad value" like they are with oblation.
I don't understand how you can say your Phelddagrif isn't sub-optimal? 2DH by definition is suboptimal for fun/budget reasons. I went through two of your grif lists. It's easy to say that they're not built 100%. You even say so yourself. This is you describing the objectives of one of your deck lists: "-Never feels overpowered or oppressive."
Your list might not be group-hug. However, Phelddagrif is the de-facto group hug general. At least, it was before Kynaios and Tiro. If anyone wants to justify running the Beast Within/Oblation/Song of Dryads package for group hug flavor, it's legit. From my perspective, you should have just left it at that. It's probably the only reason to legitimately run all three and say it's good deck building.
Please don't just focus on your own decklist as an example. I reference the general and the archetype not your deck list and not you personally. Besides, just because you run it doesn't make it correct.
1. Surviving is not the best way to win. If all decks/players are even, it may one way to consistently win your meta. However, that's not how most magic games are won. I'd say that the winning player(s) more often than not achieve victory through snowballing mana/card advantage, locking players out of games, and/or playing the most powerful threats that go unanswered. Long drawn out games are fun and memorable but even those games are punctuated by huge board advantages and/or massive threats at some point or another which none of these 3 cards spot on their own.
There are too many threats to be able to answer them all. Even if a player is able to answer them all, it's often because they built some sort of overwhelming card/mana advantage elsewhere to be able to do so. Answering threats with spot removal to "not lose" is not winning.
2. You might "not lose" because you stopped a combo using Beast Within/Oblation/Song of Dryads. But there is a huge opportunity loss in tempo from having such expensive answers in your deck/hand. It's even worse that they are expensive spot answers and not even mass-removal.
Cheap answers are good because they also let you play threats. The cost of flexibility being baked-into the 3cc of these cards comes at a huge cost, especially when two are in your hand. By the time you have the chance to use 2 of these cards in a game, you'll already have reached enough mana to be able to play much more powerful answer cards. Flexibility is way overrated. There is a massive tempo lost of playing high-cc answers just for the sake of versatility. For example, Utter End is way overplayed, same with Diabolic Tutor.
You mention STP and PTE, so we can consider building our removal package around things other than flexibility (perhaps, power and cc?). I just think that the amount of mass-removal open to a white player just dis-incentivizes playing all of these 3 flexible answers that have so many costs baked-in. For the record, I'd consider Nature's Claim before Oblation/Song of Dryads.
3. Beast Within is easily the best. However, focus on your point of how running all three. I'm bashing running all three in the same deck. Beast Within is a staple and has no drawback as far as EDH is concerned. Oblation and Song are not.
I don't understand how you can say your Phelddagrif isn't sub-optimal? 2DH by definition is suboptimal for fun/budget reasons. I went through two of your grif lists. It's easy to say that they're not built 100%. You even say so yourself. This is you describing the objectives of one of your deck lists: "-Never feels overpowered or oppressive."
Your list might not be group-hug. However, Phelddagrif is the de-facto group hug general. At least, it was before Kynaios and Tiro. If anyone wants to justify running the Beast Within/Oblation/Song of Dryads package for group hug flavor, it's legit. From my perspective, you should have just left it at that. It's probably the only reason to legitimately run all three and say it's good deck building.
Please don't just focus on your own decklist as an example. I reference the general and the archetype not your deck list and not you personally. Besides, just because you run it doesn't make it correct.
1. Surviving is not the best way to win. If all decks/players are even, it may one way to consistently win your meta. However, that's not how most magic games are won. I'd say that the winning player(s) more often than not achieve victory through snowballing mana/card advantage, locking players out of games, and/or playing the most powerful threats that go unanswered. Long drawn out games are fun and memorable but even those games are punctuated by huge board advantages and/or massive threats at some point or another which none of these 3 cards spot on their own.
There are too many threats to be able to answer them all. Even if a player is able to answer them all, it's often because they built some sort of overwhelming card/mana advantage elsewhere to be able to do so. Answering threats with spot removal to "not lose" is not winning.
2. You might "not lose" because you stopped a combo using Beast Within/Oblation/Song of Dryads. But there is a huge opportunity loss in tempo from having such expensive answers in your deck/hand. It's even worse that they are expensive spot answers and not even mass-removal.
Cheap answers are good because they also let you play threats. The cost of flexibility being baked-into the 3cc of these cards comes at a huge cost, especially when two are in your hand. By the time you have the chance to use 2 of these cards in a game, you'll already have reached enough mana to be able to play much more powerful answer cards. Flexibility is way overrated. There is a massive tempo lost of playing high-cc answers just for the sake of versatility. For example, Utter End is way overplayed, same with Diabolic Tutor.
You mention STP and PTE, so we can consider building our removal package around things other than flexibility (perhaps, power and cc?). I just think that the amount of mass-removal open to a white player just dis-incentivizes playing all of these 3 flexible answers that have so many costs baked-in. For the record, I'd consider Nature's Claim before Oblation/Song of Dryads.
3. Beast Within is easily the best. However, focus on your point of how running all three. I'm bashing running all three in the same deck. Beast Within is a staple and has no drawback as far as EDH is concerned. Oblation and Song are not.
2DH is a variant format of commander. Cards costing over $2 TCG mid are not legal to play. It's not suboptimal, it's just a more restrictive format.
Just because a deck doesn't feel overpowered or oppressive doesn't make it weak. The appearance of strength is a negative attribute in multiplayer, it makes you a target. Phelddagrif's power comes from the appearance of weakness while actually being very powerful. I'm sure my lists aren't completely optimal (and the exact card choice can be very meta-tweaked) but it's not a deck very many people are working on. It's experimental, trying to use perceived threat as a weapon. It's hard to say how good the list is since it depends a lot on the pilot, but at least in the moderately powered groups where I play, it's quite strong, wins something like 70%+ of games I've played it in, and it does well even if there's a fairly competitive deck since I can usually block their combos with targeted control while using the other players to kill them. Once there's multiple fast combo decks it may not be viable but I haven't run into that situation yet.
K&T are a group hug card, so they make total sense for group hug. Phelddagrif isn't really a group hug card imo (since they can discriminate and are not forced to hug the entire group - I prefer to think of them as political), but many people do play him in that sort of deck. I don't really care how people choose to use cards, what matters is what the cards can actually do. If people want to build bad Phelddagrif decks that's not really my business, any more than the multitude of tribal tazri decks makes tazri combo any less powerful.
No idea what targeted removal has to do with "group hug flavor". Maybe you have a different definition of group hug that involves killing things?
1) The most common and reliable ways to win in commander almost all involve some degree of burst. Either you combo out in one turn, or you play an asymmetrical jokulhaups that leaves everyone else with nothing and you with a strong board state, or a narset chain that never lets anyone else have a turn, etc. The point is that the best wins are not slow, grindy affairs for card advantage that give you tons of time to play a board wipe. Yes, of course board wipes are useful for clearing out masses of medium threats if things get out of hand, but if you want to stop a powerful deck from winning you need the right answer at the right time. The longer you survive, the more opportunity you have to pull off your bursty wincon.
Not all threats are equal. Some threats demand an answer immediately or you lose. The point isn't to answer every single threat with targeted removal. The point is to answer the right ones. Having flexibility makes that most likely.
2) song is a pretty bad way to stop combo but as I said, it has other uses.
There just aren't many 1 cmc instant-speed answers (and we were talking about white, not green, in terms of oblation's utility). If white had more I'd probably play them. If you're playing MWC I can't imagine going without oblation, it's one of your best targeted removal options. Green doesn't add a ton to that either. It's not until you add black or blue that you really open up a lot of cheaper answers and oblation might fall off your control list.
If you're a control deck you should be happy to leave up 3 mana most of the time. Oblation is less useful for more proactive decks, though, I'll agree with that. I'm assuming we're talking control here, though.
3) Really just depends how heavy on control you are. I think it's very reasonable to run all 3 if you're a control deck, especially if you're only in RGW or a subset. But if you're pretty proactive and/or you've got multiple good control colors oblation could fall off the list, sure. Really just depends on the context. GW control, though, all 3 I'd say.
I actually like Oblation a lot. Sure, you give some value to an opponent, but it is just so versatile. The only other cards I can think of which give you a similar versatility (exile/pseudo-exile that can hit any nonland permanent) are Anguished Unmaking, Chaos Warp and Utter End. And, as has been argued by others in this thread, you don't actually give that much value to your opponent. Plus, they might be content with getting two cards instead of fostering a grudge against you, and by the time they play whatever cards they drew, some other person on the table might be a threat that they then deal with instead of coming back to you.
Riku of Two Reflections - Copy, then copy again | Shattergang Brothers - Token Sac&Recur | Gahiji, Honored One - Multiple attack steps | Karametra, God of Harvests - Landfall, Creaturefall, Shroud | Ruhan of the Fomori - Stop hitting yourself | Zurgo Helmsmasher - Equipment&Wraths | Crosis, the Purger - Dragon Tribal Reanimator | Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - No stax, just tap and untap fun | Anafenza, the Foremost - Enduring Ideal Enchantress | Sharuum, the Hegemon - Sphinx Tribal Control | Noyan Dar - Spellslinger | The Mimeoplasm - Counterpalooza
Lists can be found here.
Still convinced the guy on Beseech the Queen is wearing a Mitra-type hat. Wake up sheeple!
I think people are missing one of the overlooked benefits of oblation as a piece of removal, it is the most beneficial one when used on your own permanents.
Want to draw 2 cards and have something you don't need anymore, have a permanent you want to save from a piece of removal that may exile it, chaos warp has the same side benefits and I often see Oblation used on tokens as a form of gas that is often overlooked especially in white.
I think people are missing one of the overlooked benefits of oblation as a piece of removal, it is the most beneficial one when used on your own permanents.
Want to draw 2 cards and have something you don't need anymore, have a permanent you want to save from a piece of removal that may exile it, chaos warp has the same side benefits and I often see Oblation used on tokens as a form of gas that is often overlooked especially in white.
I actually see the most beneficial being that it's an instant. But that is one. You can also use Path on a token for a similar benefit (one-mana ramp). Path is cute because it also lets you trigger landfall.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
I think people are missing one of the overlooked benefits of oblation as a piece of removal, it is the most beneficial one when used on your own permanents.
Want to draw 2 cards and have something you don't need anymore, have a permanent you want to save from a piece of removal that may exile it, chaos warp has the same side benefits and I often see Oblation used on tokens as a form of gas that is often overlooked especially in white.
I don't think that's a "benefit" to Oblation. You're essentially equating having Oblation in hand with not having a dead weight removal spell in hand. As if there were no downsides to 3cc spot removal that draws opponents 2 cards.
You've got to be desperate and losing hard, to even begin to think that Oblation is "gas."
You play Oblation because of tuck, instant, versatility. Since you cannot tuck generals, there isn't much reason left to play Oblation in any 99 since exile is pretty much everywhere now. Years ago when threats were weaker, exile was limited to certain cards, and generals could be tucked, Oblation was good.
You play Oblation when you're group-hugging. Since it's spot-removal, but draws an opponent 2 cards or you have a playgroup you want to metagame against (e.g. God heavy metas) or you have nothing else or you play 2DH. It's always something other than how good it is.
I actually see the most beneficial being that it's an instant. But that is one. You can also use Path on a token for a similar benefit (one-mana ramp). Path is cute because it also lets you trigger landfall.
Except Path to Exile is an efficient (1cc) and powerful (instant, exile) card whereas Oblation does not justify its drawback. Even using the drawback of Path on your own guy is a higher upside than Oblation'ing your own space.
You play Oblation when you're group-hugging. Since it's spot-removal, but draws an opponent 2 cards or you have a playgroup you want to metagame against (e.g. God heavy metas) or you have nothing else or you play 2DH. It's always something other than how good it is.
Worth pointing out that oblation upsides if someone has stolen your permanent, whereas path doesn't, although that's a pretty minor consideration.
My Phelddagrif deck is a weird case because it's like 50 control cards, so inclusion in that deck (2DH AND regular) doesn't necessarily make it one of the top-tier removal spells for decks with fewer slots. So let's ignore that for now (as well the irrelevance of whether group hug "players" use it).
But for sake of argument, if you're playing MWC, what targeted removal are you playing over oblation? stp, pte, sure. unexpectedly absent, maybe. There really aren't any other options at instant speed that aren't either very restrictive or cost more. There's some 3 cmc creature removal with a smaller downside, but those are significantly less flexible than oblation. If you're playing pretty aggro maybe you play something like oust for tempo, but being sorcery makes it worse that oblation in most multiplayer games.
To go to the OP, green adds a few creature removal options, but only beast within really compares to the white options for the same purposes. Song is a great option for removing commanders but otherwise is quite mediocre. Between G and W you have a plethora of efficient artifact/enchantment removal options, but if you want more than a couple creature removal options you're still probably looking at oblation.
Mostly I just don't know what removal you'd play over it if you're dedicating more than 2-3 slots for targeted creature removal in a W (3-4 for GW) deck. Which is hardly an excessive amount.
I've built MWC before. For me, it was artifact-ramp.dec that accelerated into Iona as my commander. It was artifact heavy and I had enough cards that I wanted to run that I was making cuts. So I wasn't like I was aiming to add more white cards. And this was right as tuck got axed from commanders.
For spot removal, I would play Disenchant (2cc and flexible enough for most cases) or Return to Dust (exile and 2-for-1) before Oblation. In the course of a game, there aren't many threats that necessitate tuck. So I feel that Oblation's main selling point is kinda lackluster compared to its drawback and 3-cc.
But you're hurting for card advantage sticking with MWC. One of the few ways white captures card advantage is mass removal. I weigh playing Oblation against playing more Mass Removal. I don't weigh Oblation vs other spot removal.
I've built MWC before. For me, it was artifact-ramp.dec that accelerated into Iona as my commander. It was artifact heavy and I had enough cards that I wanted to run that I was making cuts. So I wasn't like I was aiming to add more white cards. And this was right as tuck got axed from commanders.
For spot removal, I would play Disenchant (2cc and flexible enough for most cases) or Return to Dust (exile and 2-for-1) before Oblation. In the course of a game, there aren't many threats that necessitate tuck. So I feel that Oblation's main selling point is kinda lackluster compared to its drawback and 3-cc.
But you're hurting for card advantage sticking with MWC. One of the few ways white captures card advantage is mass removal. I weigh playing Oblation against playing more Mass Removal. I don't weigh Oblation vs other spot removal.
I haven't really brought up tuck as a major selling point of oblation (it's not). Idk why you keep strawmanning me by arguing against stuff I never brought up.
Oblation's main selling points are (1) flexibility, (2) instant speed, and (3) relatively low cost. Tucking is probably a distant 4th or 5th.
I agree that white-based control decks want to run a lot of wipes in most cases, but that doesn't protect from many threats that demand faster answers, and having only 2-3 ways to remove creatures at instant speed strikes me as not enough for most metas. Being able to allow the board to grow with some degree of protection in the form of a flexible panic-button like oblation gives you more value when you do use your board wipes, without requiring leaving open tons of mana like most instant-speed board wipes require (though I do like those too).
Despite having 2 of the best creature removal spells in the format, white is actually pretty weak after pte and stp in terms of good creature removal in commander. Disenchant is ok (saving 1 mana at the expense of losing creature and planeswalker removal has never been a deal I'm keen to make) but it's not creature removal. And return to dust is more expensive and less flexible than oblation so it doesn't even really compare. It's a fine card if you're trying to get value out of your targeted removal (or at least the potential to), but it doesn't do nearly as well at the job oblation does, of being a panic button to stop enemy wincons.
This is the straw man: "White has stp, pte, unexpectedly absent....after that I think I take oblation in terms of spot removal. I'd say 4th is a pretty solid ranking. What else are you ranking higher? Also, flexibility is not overrated at all imo, but I guess it depends how highly you think it's rated."
Why do I have to rank Oblation against anything? That wasn't the point.
And why do I have to rank it against spot removal? I'd rather board-wipe.
And why do I have to rank it against spot removal for types? Flexibility is overrated. Maybe I rank efficiency higher.
What if I just want to play stronger threats than waste 2 spaces on bad cards like Oblation?
Let's remember. Your point is that it's worth it to consider running all three together. You tend to play all 3 in your control deck(s).
My argument is that it's not worth running all three, especially since Song of Dryads and Oblation have very obvious strikes against them. You just don't have enough room to run all three in a good deck. There are way more options available, especially since removal is White's wheelhouse.
Your counter is that Oblation is worth running because it's good panic button to have. And you again mention the triad being in your decks. Even though that point doesn't matter.
Your insistence on defending Oblation leads this into a back and forth about Oblation.
Look, Oblation is a bad card choice in the context of today's EDH (i.e. no tuck rule, exile being ubiquitous, Modern threats being so strong and generating so much value with ETB's, no one playing MWC, etc.) that you cannot justify playing all three. You need to play stronger cards or just more threats. That's really what this is about. Put simply, the 3 card package is bad because Oblation is bad.
No one reads Oblation and says "WOW! Flexible and Instant and only 3 mana!" TWO THINGS stand out on Oblation. Tuck and Controller Drawing Two Cards. Tuck being the 4th-5th about this card? No way!
You grip onto Oblation's flexibility so hard that you're blind to its costs? If you're so afraid to lose to something/anything, play Teferi's Protection instead. Look, you may win enough games just laying low, chipping in here and there with removal/counter-magic. It's because your opponents don't realize they're doing all the work and you have a full grip at the end of the game with 10-12 lands. It's your play style and how your opponents play and haven't adapted, but it doesn't make Oblation good.
I agree Instant speed wipes are good. In my meta Fated Retribution is stone cold.
But as with some of your other points, I flat out disagree with you saying that White's creature removal is weak past STP and PTE.
I don't currently run Oblation anywhere, but I do consider it one of the better catchall instant-speed spot removals in the format. Oblation's honestly very close to Chaos Warp overall. Warp has the advantage of hitting lands. The drawback's pretty similar, albeit higher variance. Oblation has the ability to deck opponent, though that doesn't come up too often.
I've been running Unexpectedly Absent in my Selenia deck because it can be cheaper and doesn't give cards to an opponent.
I'd rate 3-mana instant catchall spot removal as follows:
1. Beast Within: It's disadvantages are giving a token and failing against indestructible/regeneration.
2. Anguished Unmaking: Here the downsides are not hitting lands and losing life. The life loss is barely significant in a 40-life format.
3. Chaos Warp: While strong, this card will backfire in epic fashion every once in a while.
4. Oblation: In this case not being able to hit lands makes me rank it below Chaos Warp.
Oblation may be the worst, but it's one of only four cards that can answer any nonland permanent at instant speed for only three mana. (Bounce sort of does the same, but only temporarily, while Oblation and Chaos Warp usually hide the offending permanent away for multiple turns.)
This is the straw man: "White has stp, pte, unexpectedly absent....after that I think I take oblation in terms of spot removal. I'd say 4th is a pretty solid ranking. What else are you ranking higher? Also, flexibility is not overrated at all imo, but I guess it depends how highly you think it's rated."
Why do I have to rank Oblation against anything? That wasn't the point.
And why do I have to rank it against spot removal? I'd rather board-wipe.
And why do I have to rank it against spot removal for types? Flexibility is overrated. Maybe I rank efficiency higher.
What if I just want to play stronger threats than waste 2 spaces on bad cards like Oblation?
Let's remember. Your point is that it's worth it to consider running all three together. You tend to play all 3 in your control deck(s).
My argument is that it's not worth running all three, especially since Song of Dryads and Oblation have very obvious strikes against them. You just don't have enough room to run all three in a good deck. There are way more options available, especially since removal is White's wheelhouse.
Your counter is that Oblation is worth running because it's good panic button to have. And you again mention the triad being in your decks. Even though that point doesn't matter.
Your insistence on defending Oblation leads this into a back and forth about Oblation.
Look, Oblation is a bad card choice in the context of today's EDH (i.e. no tuck rule, exile being ubiquitous, Modern threats being so strong and generating so much value with ETB's, no one playing MWC, etc.) that you cannot justify playing all three. You need to play stronger cards or just more threats. That's really what this is about. Put simply, the 3 card package is bad because Oblation is bad.
No one reads Oblation and says "WOW! Flexible and Instant and only 3 mana!" TWO THINGS stand out on Oblation. Tuck and Controller Drawing Two Cards. Tuck being the 4th-5th about this card? No way!
You grip onto Oblation's flexibility so hard that you're blind to its costs? If you're so afraid to lose to something/anything, play Teferi's Protection instead. Look, you may win enough games just laying low, chipping in here and there with removal/counter-magic. It's because your opponents don't realize they're doing all the work and you have a full grip at the end of the game with 10-12 lands. It's your play style and how your opponents play and haven't adapted, but it doesn't make Oblation good.
I agree Instant speed wipes are good. In my meta Fated Retribution is stone cold.
But as with some of your other points, I flat out disagree with you saying that White's creature removal is weak past STP and PTE.
That isn't a straw man. You saying that oblation is only good because of tuck is a straw man, because I've never said it was good because of tuck. I never put any words in your mouth. All I said was how I would rank it among white spot removal. If fact I deliberately asked where you'd put it rather than assume you'd put it in the same spot.
There's 2 arguments going on here, I guess. One is that it's worth running all 3 in a deck, which obviously depends a lot on the deck and what its plan is. Obviously decks like Phelddagrif that have a plan that involves lots of removal are going to want all 3. Will a cat deck? eehhhh....maybe, but probably not. Probably it's pretty proactive so spending 3 for removal might not be as important as advancing its own board state, although I could imagine a more controlling cat deck that would want it, especially if it wants removal that doesn't wipe its own stuff. I certainly wouldn't say ALL GW decks should run all 3. But Phelddagrif serves as an example that certainly it's reasonable for SOME decks to run all 3. Phelddagrif is a relevant example for that argument.
It's less relevant to the other argument, though, namely "is Oblation still a good card with the tuck rule change?" Less relevant because Phelddagrif is an unusual case that would play removal even if it wasn't the absolute best, because it just needs a lot of it (although it's also playing blue which has some really good removal).
I don't give a crap what stands out to people about the card. I care what the card is actually useful for. Flexibility, speed, and cost are what are most useful about oblation, not tuck.
Oblation's cost is 3. Hey, so is Teferi's protection. Why are you so down on oblation for costing 3, to the point where you'll play removal that hits less than half as many targets just to save 1 mana, yet you recommend teferi's protection? Let alone fated retribution. Which incidentally I think sort of cuts off your position to its knees a bit. If you wanted to argue that, in top-tier decks, oblation is subpar, then fine, maybe in that circumstance 3 mana is just too much. Tiered decklists are pretty strict and there's not a ton of variety to be had, so maybe you have a position to argue that decks running oblation just aren't competitive. But if you're playing a meta where fated retribution is a great card (and don't get me wrong, it's a fine card...in low-mid power metas) then there's no way you're playing in the sort of strict competitive environment where variety is limited and only the very best lists can possibly be viable. This whole argument that there's no WAY you could use three measly slots for moderately priced targeted removal in absolute garbage in a 75% meta.
Also threats are overrated. You don't need to free up slots so you can run more threats. Phelddagrif runs one threat: Phelddagrif. And it wins more consistently than any other deck I've played. Against many people in many places at many levels of competitiveness. Open your mind a little, and realize that there are strategies more complex than just slamming threats until something sticks.
I should have been clearer - white's TARGETED creature removal is weak past PTE and STP (and UA kinda). You haven't even offered anything for that category above oblation, so I have to assume you agree with me at that point, that oblation is the 3rd-4th best targeted creature removal in white. Surely you'd have to see that, although some (your) strategies may favor other types of cards, such as wipes or threats, that SOME decks would want enough targeted creature removal that oblation would be a good choice?
That's not to say your list contains bad cards (although I must say I'm skeptical about Krosan Vorine), but you could easily run more removal.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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I thought maybe I had a bit much with both Oblation and Song, being at 7 insta spot removals.
Artifacts and enchantments tend to scare me more than anything, as I can usually run over most creatures. With Beast within, Aura Shards, Qasali SLingers, Qasali Pridemage and Austere Command (and to a lesser extent Tragic Arrogance.) I should be fine.
I'm also starting to run low on cats. Right now I'm at 22 cats (with 3 "pseudo cats" in the form of Mutavault, White Sun's Zenith and Eladamri's call.
I think Krosan Vorine is pretty good. For most intents and purposes it is T: Fight target creature.
It's a deliCATe balance....
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Oblation - Its downside of an opponent drawing 2 is always there but I feel its so much less conditional than Song of the Dryad. I dont think that an opponent drawing 2 cards is actually all that bad as in a general turn you draw one and your opponents each draw one so you really draw 1 card for every 3 your opponents draw. In a sense yourself drawing a single card is often worth three cards drawn by opponents in this sense as just a normal turn rotation. You cant value a single opponent drawing 2 the same way in multiplayer due to that. I will say however that I have mostly stopped running Oblation of late in part because I think Unexpectedly Absent has mostly replaced it as a consideration in my mind.
There is always the consideration of if you are playing a draw go deck or a spellslinger it will make Oblation a little stronger. In the same sense if you are playing an enchantress deck it might bump Song of the Dryads a little stronger. In both cases I think the default is that Beast Within is just unanimously stronger unless you find yourself making a specific kind of deck.
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[Modern] Allies
Bye bye Oblation.
I think, song of the dryads and beast within is 2 good cards, depending on your meta. Both cards is a great removal/answer to the problematic permanent in play.
My meta is running a lot of Gods, like xenagos, purphoros, and iroas as his commander, So dryads is a better choice of me, no doubt.
I've used Oblation on my own token for cards, and save my creature from destroy/exile (then draw some), and replaces your general with two cards is also positive.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Also draw isn't so bad. Late-game half their draws are fairly low-impact (lands, ramp) anyway, and some cards might be good for you to give them (i.e. if they draw a sweeper and you're both behind on board, or a removal spell they use on someone else). It's not nothing, sure, but it's not a huge downside in my book. The flexibility is huge, and being instant-speed is massively important.
All 3 have strong cases. song of the dryads is overall the weakest for being sorcery speed, except that it's a great way to disable commanders fairly permanently. I tend to want to play all 3 if I'm building a control deck.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Depends on what the deck wants, but as far as targeted white removal it's pretty high on the list. Not as high as stp, but pretty damn high. Having a 3-mana panic button that solves most problems is really nice to have available.
In multiplayer formats, value is a lot less important than people think it is. Value is so easy to generate and to destroy - one card can draw you a dozen cards, and one card can discard then. One card can build a massive board state, and one card can destroy it. The absolute most important thing for winning is simply to not die. Have just the right answers at just the right time so that your opponents can't quite close out the game. As long as you can do that, your enemies will take care of each other for you.
Oblation is the right answer in a lot of cases where something like song might be too slow, or might force you to tip your hand too early. Although as I said, song does have its uses, and is certainly among the best options if you're playing mono-green.
Most version of my phelddagrif deck run all three (alongside lots of other great removal), except my 2DH version which doesn't run song as it exceeds the allowed cost per card of that format.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
So the only time to play all three is when you're group-hugging or purposefully un-powering- basically, Phelddagrif. If that's the answer, it's a good answer and it's legit. Some cards are very flavorful in certain decks or certain builds of decks. Suboptimal for fun is okay. I'm not against that.
However, the first 4 paragraphs just skirt around the question or try to build a strange case for playing all three. Remember, the question was why use all three? Not, why not use any one of these three?
I disagree with some of your statements.
1. The absolute most important thing to winning is not just surviving. Even if that was the case, none of these cards are going to be the "right answer" to help you come back.
2. Oblation is not very high on white's targeted removal. If it is, it's just over-played. Few competitive decks can find space for Oblation. Flexibility is overrated. Even if you value flexibility, white's options are too varied to justify using it in a tuned deck.
3. How come you compare running Oblation vs. Song of Dryads? The point you're making is running them all.
I agree with some of your statements.
1. Phelddagrif is legit place to run this package.
2. Value is overrated. However, I'm not saying this package is poor to run because of that. You're correct in most cases to focus on the card drawing part. Because most players do mistakenly focus on that. However, I'm not most players. I don't mind Oblation drawing your opponent cards. This package is poor to run because there are better options. The versatility of targeting all permanent-types isn't worth the tempo loss of having so much 3cc removal in your hand.
3. Of course, you wrote about Oblation more than the Green options. Green has less removal. Beast Within and Song of Dryads is higher on the list than Oblation in their respective colors.
Anyway,
1) Not sure what you mean. The way to not die is often to remove some specific permanent. If you want to come back, first you have to not die. Having the right answer at the right time is how you do that. After you avoid dying, then you can worry about coming back. "Coming back" is not a mandatory part of not dying anyway. You just have to not die. And then keep doing it.
2) White has stp, pte, unexpectedly absent....after that I think I take oblation in terms of spot removal (and it's really a toss up between it and UA). I'd say 4th is a pretty solid ranking. What else are you ranking higher? Also, flexibility is not overrated at all imo, but I guess it depends how highly you think it's rated.
3) Concensus seemed to be that beast within was the best and I think that's fair. tuck vs destroy is arguable (I think I'd prefer tuck) but a 3/3 is a lot less powerful than 2 cards so I think it's better on balance, even if the 2 cards aren't a big downside. But a lot of people were bashing oblation so I felt compelled to defend its honor, which generally means comparing it to the other cards. Although I think also it's a strong card just in a vacuum. Song of the dryads is a much less interesting card to talk about, though, since people aren't thrown off by the "bad value" like they are with oblation.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I don't understand how you can say your Phelddagrif isn't sub-optimal? 2DH by definition is suboptimal for fun/budget reasons. I went through two of your grif lists. It's easy to say that they're not built 100%. You even say so yourself. This is you describing the objectives of one of your deck lists:
"-Never feels overpowered or oppressive."
Your list might not be group-hug. However, Phelddagrif is the de-facto group hug general. At least, it was before Kynaios and Tiro. If anyone wants to justify running the Beast Within/Oblation/Song of Dryads package for group hug flavor, it's legit. From my perspective, you should have just left it at that. It's probably the only reason to legitimately run all three and say it's good deck building.
Please don't just focus on your own decklist as an example. I reference the general and the archetype not your deck list and not you personally. Besides, just because you run it doesn't make it correct.
1. Surviving is not the best way to win. If all decks/players are even, it may one way to consistently win your meta. However, that's not how most magic games are won. I'd say that the winning player(s) more often than not achieve victory through snowballing mana/card advantage, locking players out of games, and/or playing the most powerful threats that go unanswered. Long drawn out games are fun and memorable but even those games are punctuated by huge board advantages and/or massive threats at some point or another which none of these 3 cards spot on their own.
There are too many threats to be able to answer them all. Even if a player is able to answer them all, it's often because they built some sort of overwhelming card/mana advantage elsewhere to be able to do so. Answering threats with spot removal to "not lose" is not winning.
2. You might "not lose" because you stopped a combo using Beast Within/Oblation/Song of Dryads. But there is a huge opportunity loss in tempo from having such expensive answers in your deck/hand. It's even worse that they are expensive spot answers and not even mass-removal.
Cheap answers are good because they also let you play threats. The cost of flexibility being baked-into the 3cc of these cards comes at a huge cost, especially when two are in your hand. By the time you have the chance to use 2 of these cards in a game, you'll already have reached enough mana to be able to play much more powerful answer cards. Flexibility is way overrated. There is a massive tempo lost of playing high-cc answers just for the sake of versatility. For example, Utter End is way overplayed, same with Diabolic Tutor.
You mention STP and PTE, so we can consider building our removal package around things other than flexibility (perhaps, power and cc?). I just think that the amount of mass-removal open to a white player just dis-incentivizes playing all of these 3 flexible answers that have so many costs baked-in. For the record, I'd consider Nature's Claim before Oblation/Song of Dryads.
3. Beast Within is easily the best. However, focus on your point of how running all three. I'm bashing running all three in the same deck. Beast Within is a staple and has no drawback as far as EDH is concerned. Oblation and Song are not.
Just because a deck doesn't feel overpowered or oppressive doesn't make it weak. The appearance of strength is a negative attribute in multiplayer, it makes you a target. Phelddagrif's power comes from the appearance of weakness while actually being very powerful. I'm sure my lists aren't completely optimal (and the exact card choice can be very meta-tweaked) but it's not a deck very many people are working on. It's experimental, trying to use perceived threat as a weapon. It's hard to say how good the list is since it depends a lot on the pilot, but at least in the moderately powered groups where I play, it's quite strong, wins something like 70%+ of games I've played it in, and it does well even if there's a fairly competitive deck since I can usually block their combos with targeted control while using the other players to kill them. Once there's multiple fast combo decks it may not be viable but I haven't run into that situation yet.
K&T are a group hug card, so they make total sense for group hug. Phelddagrif isn't really a group hug card imo (since they can discriminate and are not forced to hug the entire group - I prefer to think of them as political), but many people do play him in that sort of deck. I don't really care how people choose to use cards, what matters is what the cards can actually do. If people want to build bad Phelddagrif decks that's not really my business, any more than the multitude of tribal tazri decks makes tazri combo any less powerful.
No idea what targeted removal has to do with "group hug flavor". Maybe you have a different definition of group hug that involves killing things?
1) The most common and reliable ways to win in commander almost all involve some degree of burst. Either you combo out in one turn, or you play an asymmetrical jokulhaups that leaves everyone else with nothing and you with a strong board state, or a narset chain that never lets anyone else have a turn, etc. The point is that the best wins are not slow, grindy affairs for card advantage that give you tons of time to play a board wipe. Yes, of course board wipes are useful for clearing out masses of medium threats if things get out of hand, but if you want to stop a powerful deck from winning you need the right answer at the right time. The longer you survive, the more opportunity you have to pull off your bursty wincon.
Not all threats are equal. Some threats demand an answer immediately or you lose. The point isn't to answer every single threat with targeted removal. The point is to answer the right ones. Having flexibility makes that most likely.
2) song is a pretty bad way to stop combo but as I said, it has other uses.
There just aren't many 1 cmc instant-speed answers (and we were talking about white, not green, in terms of oblation's utility). If white had more I'd probably play them. If you're playing MWC I can't imagine going without oblation, it's one of your best targeted removal options. Green doesn't add a ton to that either. It's not until you add black or blue that you really open up a lot of cheaper answers and oblation might fall off your control list.
If you're a control deck you should be happy to leave up 3 mana most of the time. Oblation is less useful for more proactive decks, though, I'll agree with that. I'm assuming we're talking control here, though.
3) Really just depends how heavy on control you are. I think it's very reasonable to run all 3 if you're a control deck, especially if you're only in RGW or a subset. But if you're pretty proactive and/or you've got multiple good control colors oblation could fall off the list, sure. Really just depends on the context. GW control, though, all 3 I'd say.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Tamanoa - Welcome to the Jungle
Lists can be found here.
Want to draw 2 cards and have something you don't need anymore, have a permanent you want to save from a piece of removal that may exile it, chaos warp has the same side benefits and I often see Oblation used on tokens as a form of gas that is often overlooked especially in white.
I actually see the most beneficial being that it's an instant. But that is one. You can also use Path on a token for a similar benefit (one-mana ramp). Path is cute because it also lets you trigger landfall.
On phasing:
I don't think that's a "benefit" to Oblation. You're essentially equating having Oblation in hand with not having a dead weight removal spell in hand. As if there were no downsides to 3cc spot removal that draws opponents 2 cards.
You've got to be desperate and losing hard, to even begin to think that Oblation is "gas."
You play Oblation because of tuck, instant, versatility. Since you cannot tuck generals, there isn't much reason left to play Oblation in any 99 since exile is pretty much everywhere now. Years ago when threats were weaker, exile was limited to certain cards, and generals could be tucked, Oblation was good.
You play Oblation when you're group-hugging. Since it's spot-removal, but draws an opponent 2 cards or you have a playgroup you want to metagame against (e.g. God heavy metas) or you have nothing else or you play 2DH. It's always something other than how good it is.
Except Path to Exile is an efficient (1cc) and powerful (instant, exile) card whereas Oblation does not justify its drawback. Even using the drawback of Path on your own guy is a higher upside than Oblation'ing your own space.
My Phelddagrif deck is a weird case because it's like 50 control cards, so inclusion in that deck (2DH AND regular) doesn't necessarily make it one of the top-tier removal spells for decks with fewer slots. So let's ignore that for now (as well the irrelevance of whether group hug "players" use it).
But for sake of argument, if you're playing MWC, what targeted removal are you playing over oblation? stp, pte, sure. unexpectedly absent, maybe. There really aren't any other options at instant speed that aren't either very restrictive or cost more. There's some 3 cmc creature removal with a smaller downside, but those are significantly less flexible than oblation. If you're playing pretty aggro maybe you play something like oust for tempo, but being sorcery makes it worse that oblation in most multiplayer games.
To go to the OP, green adds a few creature removal options, but only beast within really compares to the white options for the same purposes. Song is a great option for removing commanders but otherwise is quite mediocre. Between G and W you have a plethora of efficient artifact/enchantment removal options, but if you want more than a couple creature removal options you're still probably looking at oblation.
Mostly I just don't know what removal you'd play over it if you're dedicating more than 2-3 slots for targeted creature removal in a W (3-4 for GW) deck. Which is hardly an excessive amount.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
For spot removal, I would play Disenchant (2cc and flexible enough for most cases) or Return to Dust (exile and 2-for-1) before Oblation. In the course of a game, there aren't many threats that necessitate tuck. So I feel that Oblation's main selling point is kinda lackluster compared to its drawback and 3-cc.
But you're hurting for card advantage sticking with MWC. One of the few ways white captures card advantage is mass removal. I weigh playing Oblation against playing more Mass Removal. I don't weigh Oblation vs other spot removal.
Oblation's main selling points are (1) flexibility, (2) instant speed, and (3) relatively low cost. Tucking is probably a distant 4th or 5th.
I agree that white-based control decks want to run a lot of wipes in most cases, but that doesn't protect from many threats that demand faster answers, and having only 2-3 ways to remove creatures at instant speed strikes me as not enough for most metas. Being able to allow the board to grow with some degree of protection in the form of a flexible panic-button like oblation gives you more value when you do use your board wipes, without requiring leaving open tons of mana like most instant-speed board wipes require (though I do like those too).
Despite having 2 of the best creature removal spells in the format, white is actually pretty weak after pte and stp in terms of good creature removal in commander. Disenchant is ok (saving 1 mana at the expense of losing creature and planeswalker removal has never been a deal I'm keen to make) but it's not creature removal. And return to dust is more expensive and less flexible than oblation so it doesn't even really compare. It's a fine card if you're trying to get value out of your targeted removal (or at least the potential to), but it doesn't do nearly as well at the job oblation does, of being a panic button to stop enemy wincons.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
This is the straw man: "White has stp, pte, unexpectedly absent....after that I think I take oblation in terms of spot removal. I'd say 4th is a pretty solid ranking. What else are you ranking higher? Also, flexibility is not overrated at all imo, but I guess it depends how highly you think it's rated."
Why do I have to rank Oblation against anything? That wasn't the point.
And why do I have to rank it against spot removal? I'd rather board-wipe.
And why do I have to rank it against spot removal for types? Flexibility is overrated. Maybe I rank efficiency higher.
What if I just want to play stronger threats than waste 2 spaces on bad cards like Oblation?
Let's remember. Your point is that it's worth it to consider running all three together. You tend to play all 3 in your control deck(s).
My argument is that it's not worth running all three, especially since Song of Dryads and Oblation have very obvious strikes against them. You just don't have enough room to run all three in a good deck. There are way more options available, especially since removal is White's wheelhouse.
Your counter is that Oblation is worth running because it's good panic button to have. And you again mention the triad being in your decks. Even though that point doesn't matter.
Your insistence on defending Oblation leads this into a back and forth about Oblation.
Look, Oblation is a bad card choice in the context of today's EDH (i.e. no tuck rule, exile being ubiquitous, Modern threats being so strong and generating so much value with ETB's, no one playing MWC, etc.) that you cannot justify playing all three. You need to play stronger cards or just more threats. That's really what this is about. Put simply, the 3 card package is bad because Oblation is bad.
No one reads Oblation and says "WOW! Flexible and Instant and only 3 mana!"
TWO THINGS stand out on Oblation. Tuck and Controller Drawing Two Cards. Tuck being the 4th-5th about this card? No way!
You grip onto Oblation's flexibility so hard that you're blind to its costs? If you're so afraid to lose to something/anything, play Teferi's Protection instead. Look, you may win enough games just laying low, chipping in here and there with removal/counter-magic. It's because your opponents don't realize they're doing all the work and you have a full grip at the end of the game with 10-12 lands. It's your play style and how your opponents play and haven't adapted, but it doesn't make Oblation good.
I agree Instant speed wipes are good. In my meta Fated Retribution is stone cold.
But as with some of your other points, I flat out disagree with you saying that White's creature removal is weak past STP and PTE.
I've been running Unexpectedly Absent in my Selenia deck because it can be cheaper and doesn't give cards to an opponent.
I'd rate 3-mana instant catchall spot removal as follows:
1. Beast Within: It's disadvantages are giving a token and failing against indestructible/regeneration.
2. Anguished Unmaking: Here the downsides are not hitting lands and losing life. The life loss is barely significant in a 40-life format.
3. Chaos Warp: While strong, this card will backfire in epic fashion every once in a while.
4. Oblation: In this case not being able to hit lands makes me rank it below Chaos Warp.
Oblation may be the worst, but it's one of only four cards that can answer any nonland permanent at instant speed for only three mana. (Bounce sort of does the same, but only temporarily, while Oblation and Chaos Warp usually hide the offending permanent away for multiple turns.)
There's 2 arguments going on here, I guess. One is that it's worth running all 3 in a deck, which obviously depends a lot on the deck and what its plan is. Obviously decks like Phelddagrif that have a plan that involves lots of removal are going to want all 3. Will a cat deck? eehhhh....maybe, but probably not. Probably it's pretty proactive so spending 3 for removal might not be as important as advancing its own board state, although I could imagine a more controlling cat deck that would want it, especially if it wants removal that doesn't wipe its own stuff. I certainly wouldn't say ALL GW decks should run all 3. But Phelddagrif serves as an example that certainly it's reasonable for SOME decks to run all 3. Phelddagrif is a relevant example for that argument.
It's less relevant to the other argument, though, namely "is Oblation still a good card with the tuck rule change?" Less relevant because Phelddagrif is an unusual case that would play removal even if it wasn't the absolute best, because it just needs a lot of it (although it's also playing blue which has some really good removal).
I don't give a crap what stands out to people about the card. I care what the card is actually useful for. Flexibility, speed, and cost are what are most useful about oblation, not tuck.
Oblation's cost is 3. Hey, so is Teferi's protection. Why are you so down on oblation for costing 3, to the point where you'll play removal that hits less than half as many targets just to save 1 mana, yet you recommend teferi's protection? Let alone fated retribution. Which incidentally I think sort of cuts off your position to its knees a bit. If you wanted to argue that, in top-tier decks, oblation is subpar, then fine, maybe in that circumstance 3 mana is just too much. Tiered decklists are pretty strict and there's not a ton of variety to be had, so maybe you have a position to argue that decks running oblation just aren't competitive. But if you're playing a meta where fated retribution is a great card (and don't get me wrong, it's a fine card...in low-mid power metas) then there's no way you're playing in the sort of strict competitive environment where variety is limited and only the very best lists can possibly be viable. This whole argument that there's no WAY you could use three measly slots for moderately priced targeted removal in absolute garbage in a 75% meta.
Also threats are overrated. You don't need to free up slots so you can run more threats. Phelddagrif runs one threat: Phelddagrif. And it wins more consistently than any other deck I've played. Against many people in many places at many levels of competitiveness. Open your mind a little, and realize that there are strategies more complex than just slamming threats until something sticks.
I should have been clearer - white's TARGETED creature removal is weak past PTE and STP (and UA kinda). You haven't even offered anything for that category above oblation, so I have to assume you agree with me at that point, that oblation is the 3rd-4th best targeted creature removal in white. Surely you'd have to see that, although some (your) strategies may favor other types of cards, such as wipes or threats, that SOME decks would want enough targeted creature removal that oblation would be a good choice?
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6