necropotence has a challenging casting cost with triple black, but once in play it is free to use as much as you want. the drawback is that you dont get the cards until later. the plus is that you can start each turn with a full grip of cards.
greed has an easier mana requirement when casting, but has the drawback of requiring mana to use for each card drawn. the plus is that it gives you the card right now.
If you want to cast it on curve, BBB is too hard to pull off, so play Greed.
If you want to cast it in the late game and immediately fill your hand before swinging with Kaalia, then you want Greed. You will be able to get a fatty into play right away.
I think Necropotence will be best if you want to play it on turns 5 to 7. These are the turns where Greed is less efficient, and where you still have fatties in hand when swinging with Kaalia.
Other factors to consider:
- Do you play Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? Chromatic Lantern?
- Do you have perfect mana (fetches, shocks, duals, filter lands)?
- Do you have cards like Dragon Mage? Adding an extra tutor to get Dragon Mage may be another option.
Necropotence
Pro: Costs 3 mana.
Pro: Doesn't cost mana to activate.
Con: Costs BBB, which can be hard in any three-color deck, especially one without access to green.
Con: "Skip your draw step.", probably the least relevant con.
Con: You don't draw cards at instant speed.
Con: Discarded cards are exiled.
Wash: Gets around Underworld Dreams, but you don't get the extra cards from Alhammarret's Archive either.
Greed
Pro: Only costs one point of black mana.
Pro: You can still draw your card.
Con: Pay 2 life rather than 1.
Con: Also, pay B.
Erebos, God of the Dead
Basically, Erebos has the same pros and cons as Greed, but...
Pro: In addition, opponents can't gain life (which is semi-relevant in Kaalia).
Pro: Indestructible.
Con: Costs 1B and 2 life to activate, instead of B and 2 life.
Wash: Can become a creature. It can attack and die to removal, though the type of removal (Tragic Slip, Swords to Plowshares, Imprisoned in the Moon) is far different than any standard black creature which just avoids "nonblack". But it also can be a carrier for Pestilence if you have just three skulls on your side of the table (but then again, so can Akroma or Avacyn). At the same time, both white and black can reanimate it.
Necro is usually better (barring a few cases where you'll want to play reanimator), followed by Erebos, then Greed.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
For kaalia? I'd go with bloodgift demon, harvester of souls, dragon mage, and kothophed, soul hoarder probably. At least they're on-theme and won't make people want to kill you (although maybe that's a lost cause if you're playing kaalia? Not sure how much hate she draws these days. I suspect she looks pretty tame compared to some of the new commanders, tbh).
Of those two, necro is at the "completely idiotic" power level. Greed is at the "sometimes playable I guess?" power level. The fact that the draw doesn't cost mana is what separates the wheat from the chaff. Erebos is also trash compared to necro for the same reason.
How much you can take advantage of necro depends on how good your deck is. Nothing but fat angels and demons and dragons? You'd probably be better off with phyrexian arena (and similar) since you can't cast a million spells in a turn anyway. If your deck is lean and mean, though, or you're going for some combo, then massive draw off necro will win the game quickly. Really depends what you're trying to do.
Also necro is obviously better with a good manabase. If you're using duals + fetches then necro shouldn't be a big deal, and sometimes casting it the turn before kaalia is actually a massive power boost. If you're using all basics then suddenly that triple-black looks kind of rough. Though if generating multiple black is difficult for you then greed still sucks since it needs black mana.
Bottom line: necro is OP but draws hate and might be hard on budget manabases. Greed just sort of sucks. Demons and dragons are at least free off kaalia and pretty good value, so I'd go for them probably. If you're trying to do some dumb combo with avacyn + geddon on turn 4 though, then sure, play necro I guess. Probably never play greed. Always play phyrexian arena.
thanks for all the responses guys. i am running a "perfect" mana base with duals, fetches, urborg, tomb of yawgmoth, and plenty of filter effects so the three black of necropotence doesnt worry me much. i do have dragon mage in the deck along with a couple of wheels, but i do like the other demons mentioned. i think ill try to make room for them some how.
i think the arguments for necropotence have me leaning towards it. it seems like greed may be a "safer" option, but im liking the pure power of necropotence and the lack of mana in its activation costs. ill give it a try and see how it does. thanks again.
If you do not get bbb, greed is also limited to drawing two cards maximum per turn.
With a good manabase necro is not a problem in any deck. I took it out of a 5color deck, not because it was bad, but because I wanted to power down the deck.
I think DirkGently covered the topi:.
Bottom line: necro is OP but draws hate and might be hard on budget manabases. Greed just sort of sucks.
Yeah, it's usually true. There are a few exceptions, two of which are specifically meta (Greed can draw answers at instant speed, something that helps if your meta likes things like Food Chain Prossh that have to be answered NAO! Kaalia also already makes me leery of mana fixing, just because she's a nongreen three-color commander who attracts removal like Kenny McCormick, is vulnerable to all the most commonly used removals that don't say "nonblack", and her deck is already totally dependent on keeping her alive long enough to attack, so land destruction is already her worst matchup: You'd be surprised how many Kaalia players will just walk into a Daze because they have no other choice but to cast her and suit her up with Lightning Greaves ASAP.) and the others are typically related to your deck, e.g. reanimator.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Yeah, it's usually true. There are a few exceptions, two of which are specifically meta (Greed can draw answers at instant speed, something that helps if your meta likes things like Food Chain Prossh that have to be answered NAO!
Your argument is that, if your meta plays food chain prossh, that justifies playing greed over necro? o_O
also necro is probably better vs mass LD since at least you can still activate it once it's on the field regardless of your mana situation.
Yeah, it's usually true. There are a few exceptions, two of which are specifically meta (Greed can draw answers at instant speed, something that helps if your meta likes things like Food Chain Prossh that have to be answered NAO!
Your argument is that, if your meta plays food chain prossh, that justifies playing greed over necro? o_O
I used it as an example. When you encounter a lot of "must answer before the turn is out" combos, having instant-speed card draw rather than draw at EOT becomes important. (And of course, Pithing Needle exists.)
I was specifically thinking of two cards that have been in my meta since Hermit Druid was big, though: Blood Moon and Back to Basics. I now make a rule that at least half my lands must be basic.
Again, 99% of the time, Necro is much better, but I can think of exceptions.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
necropotence has a challenging casting cost with triple black, but once in play it is free to use as much as you want. the drawback is that you dont get the cards until later. the plus is that you can start each turn with a full grip of cards.
greed has an easier mana requirement when casting, but has the drawback of requiring mana to use for each card drawn. the plus is that it gives you the card right now.
which would you choose to use?
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If you want to cast it on curve, BBB is too hard to pull off, so play Greed.
If you want to cast it in the late game and immediately fill your hand before swinging with Kaalia, then you want Greed. You will be able to get a fatty into play right away.
I think Necropotence will be best if you want to play it on turns 5 to 7. These are the turns where Greed is less efficient, and where you still have fatties in hand when swinging with Kaalia.
Other factors to consider:
- Do you play Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth? Chromatic Lantern?
- Do you have perfect mana (fetches, shocks, duals, filter lands)?
- Do you have cards like Dragon Mage? Adding an extra tutor to get Dragon Mage may be another option.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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^ This
Necro is so much more powerful. Use it as a recovery tool.
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[Modern] Allies
Necropotence
Pro: Costs 3 mana.
Pro: Doesn't cost mana to activate.
Con: Costs BBB, which can be hard in any three-color deck, especially one without access to green.
Con: "Skip your draw step.", probably the least relevant con.
Con: You don't draw cards at instant speed.
Con: Discarded cards are exiled.
Wash: Gets around Underworld Dreams, but you don't get the extra cards from Alhammarret's Archive either.
Greed
Pro: Only costs one point of black mana.
Pro: You can still draw your card.
Con: Pay 2 life rather than 1.
Con: Also, pay B.
Erebos, God of the Dead
Basically, Erebos has the same pros and cons as Greed, but...
Pro: In addition, opponents can't gain life (which is semi-relevant in Kaalia).
Pro: Indestructible.
Con: Costs 1B and 2 life to activate, instead of B and 2 life.
Wash: Can become a creature. It can attack and die to removal, though the type of removal (Tragic Slip, Swords to Plowshares, Imprisoned in the Moon) is far different than any standard black creature which just avoids "nonblack". But it also can be a carrier for Pestilence if you have just three skulls on your side of the table (but then again, so can Akroma or Avacyn). At the same time, both white and black can reanimate it.
Necro is usually better (barring a few cases where you'll want to play reanimator), followed by Erebos, then Greed.
On phasing:
That is banned.
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[Modern] Allies
Of those two, necro is at the "completely idiotic" power level. Greed is at the "sometimes playable I guess?" power level. The fact that the draw doesn't cost mana is what separates the wheat from the chaff. Erebos is also trash compared to necro for the same reason.
How much you can take advantage of necro depends on how good your deck is. Nothing but fat angels and demons and dragons? You'd probably be better off with phyrexian arena (and similar) since you can't cast a million spells in a turn anyway. If your deck is lean and mean, though, or you're going for some combo, then massive draw off necro will win the game quickly. Really depends what you're trying to do.
Also necro is obviously better with a good manabase. If you're using duals + fetches then necro shouldn't be a big deal, and sometimes casting it the turn before kaalia is actually a massive power boost. If you're using all basics then suddenly that triple-black looks kind of rough. Though if generating multiple black is difficult for you then greed still sucks since it needs black mana.
Bottom line: necro is OP but draws hate and might be hard on budget manabases. Greed just sort of sucks. Demons and dragons are at least free off kaalia and pretty good value, so I'd go for them probably. If you're trying to do some dumb combo with avacyn + geddon on turn 4 though, then sure, play necro I guess. Probably never play greed. Always play phyrexian arena.
ok I'm done.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
i think the arguments for necropotence have me leaning towards it. it seems like greed may be a "safer" option, but im liking the pure power of necropotence and the lack of mana in its activation costs. ill give it a try and see how it does. thanks again.
Yeah, it's usually true. There are a few exceptions, two of which are specifically meta (Greed can draw answers at instant speed, something that helps if your meta likes things like Food Chain Prossh that have to be answered NAO! Kaalia also already makes me leery of mana fixing, just because she's a nongreen three-color commander who attracts removal like Kenny McCormick, is vulnerable to all the most commonly used removals that don't say "nonblack", and her deck is already totally dependent on keeping her alive long enough to attack, so land destruction is already her worst matchup: You'd be surprised how many Kaalia players will just walk into a Daze because they have no other choice but to cast her and suit her up with Lightning Greaves ASAP.) and the others are typically related to your deck, e.g. reanimator.
On phasing:
also necro is probably better vs mass LD since at least you can still activate it once it's on the field regardless of your mana situation.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I used it as an example. When you encounter a lot of "must answer before the turn is out" combos, having instant-speed card draw rather than draw at EOT becomes important. (And of course, Pithing Needle exists.)
I was specifically thinking of two cards that have been in my meta since Hermit Druid was big, though: Blood Moon and Back to Basics. I now make a rule that at least half my lands must be basic.
Again, 99% of the time, Necro is much better, but I can think of exceptions.
On phasing:
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs