MTG Salvation

So when I went to the GP Las Vegas a few weeks ago I got enough tix to get a foil Sensei's Divining Top. This was my first top and I have around 8 commander decks that aren't retired. So I told everyone in my playgroup that I would be putting the Slobberin Miledriver SCG token in each of my decks and that would represent the top in each deck. So in my opinion proxying staples that you don't have many copies of is fine, proxying a few cards that you want to try out/buy that are cheap is fine, even proxying a few expensive cards that you just can't find and don't want to buy online is fine, but if someone proxies a whole deck then that is pretty **** especially if they are using top tier cards. Also in Vegas my friend played a commander game with a few people. These other people were all the same playgroup and they had one friend that had a fully proxied top tier animar deck. While my friend was playing whenever the animar deck did anything he just kept thinking to himself no that doesn't work that's a fake card so it doesn't resolve or that's a fake card therefore I take a fake 20 damage.

Quote from ericbsmtg »

So when I went to the GP Las Vegas a few weeks ago I got enough tix to get a foil Sensei's Divining Top. This was my first top and I have around 8 commander decks that aren't retired. So I told everyone in my playgroup that I would be putting the Slobberin Miledriver SCG token in each of my decks and that would represent the top in each deck. So in my opinion proxying staples that you don't have many copies of is fine, proxying a few cards that you want to try out/buy that are cheap is fine, even proxying a few expensive cards that you just can't find and don't want to buy online is fine, but if someone proxies a whole deck then that is pretty ***** especially if they are using top tier cards. Also in Vegas my friend played a commander game with a few people. These other people were all the same playgroup and they had one friend that had a fully proxied top tier animar deck. While my friend was playing whenever the animar deck did anything he just kept thinking to himself no that doesn't work that's a fake card so it doesn't resolve or that's a fake card therefore I take a fake 20 damage.

I've never had to play against someone with a completely proxied deck and I can imagine I would have had a similar reaction as your friend... How is a person supposed to feel about losing, or even getting hosed (Tier 1 Animar certainly can hose ppl) to someone with a fully proxied, probably valued at over $2k deck??? I can imagine that experience wouldn't feel good with most people. I'd certainly hope the person asks first if others are ok to starting a new game every 4 turns as they lose to a stack of cards worth $0....

I'd feel about the same as losing to any other competitive(ish) deck: fine, as long as it's in moderation. Deck value isn't relevant.

How I play Magic

Quote from Incanur »

I'd feel about the same as losing to any other competitive(ish) deck: fine, as long as it's in moderation. Deck value isn't relevant.

It might be different if you lose because your 3c-deck had mana issues whereas the opponent's 5c-deck had all the duals and fetches proxies.
At that point I would personally feel bad: He didn't proxy missing pieces, it's just powerproxying. And he won because he did something I feel uncomfortable doing: basically cheating at Magic.

The guy you are responding to plays with me on a regular basis.
The value of the proxies are irrelevant.

I understand why people feel it's unfair to play against a bunch of high-value proxies. If my opponents were constantly playing true cEDH decks that were mostly or significantly proxies, I'd pretty quickly want to follow suit.

I likewise grasp why folks care about paying for cards to support WotC and/or to display status (bling, etc.).

Personally, I'm interested in game mechanics and aesthetics. I consider the financial aspect chiefly a hindrance, an impediment to overcome, an annoying subgame.

I avoid proxies myself because I lack access to a good printer, because the minimally increased thickness of a card + paper bothers me, and because some of the folks I play with disdain proxies or at least large numbers of proxies.

In practice, I don't mind playing my medium-budget decks against decks with high-end proxies. Occasionally I'll even encounter a cEDH decks with key expensive proxies like Bazaar of Baghdad. I'm okay with that in moderation.

A lot of this boils down to a power-level issue and not a proxy issue. Whenever people play in EDH games where power levels are disparate, a bad time is going to be had. Whether the reason is "he proxied a deck that would have cost thousands of dollars" or "he has a deck that costs thousands of dollars," it doesn't matter. People hate losing to their opponent's wallet as much as they hate losing to proxies, in my experience, though it depends on the person of course. The biggest issue is a lack of communication between people about the kind of EDH games they want to play, which of course happens a lot whenever groups of people who don't know each other come together to play.

Quote from Kangodo »

Quote from Incanur »

I'd feel about the same as losing to any other competitive(ish) deck: fine, as long as it's in moderation. Deck value isn't relevant.

It might be different if you lose because your 3c-deck had mana issues whereas the opponent's 5c-deck had all the duals and fetches proxies.
At that point I would personally feel bad: He didn't proxy missing pieces, it's just powerproxying. And he won because he did something I feel uncomfortable doing: basically cheating at Magic.

Yeah I had a kid playing Animar deck with no actual lands in as he proxied out the deck to the perfect mana base with fetches,shocks, dual lands and a gaia's cradle and his deck went off swimmingly with his basic lands written on them expensive cards names in marker and thinking it was perfectly okay and proud of his deck design that he had no intention of ever buying. Like That's great but I actually own all the cards in my deck. Between his deck going off way faster than it should have, and my deck struggling due to it being heavily white limiting what I could do to his commander which I generally lost to commander damage when we played. (my first EDH deck was Sigarda, Host of Herons.) I think my current versions of my deck could probably handle it, but between me just getting started, and him being excessive with his use of proxies I like I am done with this after a couple games. This is lame. It definitely crossed into abuse of them which I am not okay with.

I personally have 2 proxies, but they are alternate cool looking alternate art versions I bought online of cards I don't care to repurchase at this time. Avacyn, Archangel of Hope(I have one from the vault which is also great.) and Archangel of Thune(which I own 3 of already, and wanted a fourth for my Atraxa deck.) and I generally am okay with Proxies if you own the card and don't excessively use them, or are simply test driving cards before shelling out the money to get them for real.(One guy does that, but he will actually buy the cards as he owns a Legacy Hightide deck with 4 Candelabra of Tawnos.) Alternate art is perfectly fine with me.I am cool with most stuff as long as I agreed to it before playing if you tell me up front. (Like I wanna play my Tolarian Academy ..Okay sure.)

I proxy Doom Blade.

I only have proxies of cards I already own and I almost always swap them out (use the same colored sleeves for most of my decks). I also routinely replace them with reals once decks are firmly established.

I personally feel like the C in TCG is nearly as important as the G. I've spent a lot of time and resources building my collection. Getting beat by people with "workshop" and "tabernacle" written on the back of a card is an affront to that entire process. I don't avoid those people and I'm happy to play against them from time to time but the satisfaction they get from winning seems at least partially unearned from a collector and deck-builder's perspective. Losing to a player with an actual Mishra's Workshop or The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale doesn't sting as much because I can respect the effort and time it probably took to get and maintain those cards, and beating them with my comparatively cheaper counterparts feels that much sweeter.

Playtesting is a thing, sure. But if someone has no intention of ever collecting a gaea's cradle how much more testing do they need to know it's awesome? Just my 2c, as I said I don't actively avoid playing with proxies just find them personally distasteful when abused.

Quote from halophilic »

I've spent a lot of time and resources building my collection. Getting beat by people with "workshop" and "tabernacle" written on the back of a card is an affront to that entire process. I don't avoid those people and I'm happy to play against them from time to time but the satisfaction they get from winning seems at least partially unearned from a collector and deck-builder's perspective.

This is akin to saying you deserve to win more because you have more money. To claim this positions is supported from a "deck-builder's perspective" is bullshit. Having access to the entire card pool highlights deck building, and emphasizes the player's skill, rather than your wallet.
The moment you begin a game, the collective aspect of M:tG is no longer relevant. Do you get upset if someone beats you at Chess using 'fake' pieces? As long as they are clearly identifiable, it does not matter how they are made, or what from.

Quote from Muspellsheimr »

This is akin to saying you deserve to win more because you have more money.

Except I didn't even suggest that. In fact, I pointed out that I get enjoyment from beating people with actual cards because I understand what they've likely had to do to get them. The years of trading, preserving, buying, grinding. There is something less impressive about sharpie'ing the back of a card, but that's my opinion. I didn't say they deserved to win less, I said they didn't deserve the satisfaction with winning as much.

To claim this positions is supported from a "deck-builder's perspective" is bull*****. Having access to the entire card pool highlights deck building, and emphasizes the player's skill, rather than your wallet.

I think this is just a miscommunication of the term "deck-building". I include tracking down the cards and maintaining them as part of that process. You probably don't. Apologies for the lack of clarity there.

The moment you begin a game, the collective aspect of M:tG is no longer relevant. Do you get upset if someone beats you at Chess using 'fake' pieces? As long as they are clearly identifiable, it does not matter how they are made, or what from.

Well, that's just your opinion, man. The chess analogy isn't really applicable because everyone has the same set of pieces. If Queens were exceptionally rare and someone was playing all counterfeit queens then yeah, I wouldn't be thrilled.

What about World Championship cards? Gold boarder, black back. I have a Gaea's Cradle version and a Force of Will. However, I only own a real Force of Will. Would you hate me for playing the two WC cards?

Don't play proxies, don't mind playing against them at all. Like a lot of the format, it's always going to be a group dependent question. Opinions of internet strangers are meaningless when you sit down for a game.

Quote from Weebo »

Don't play proxies, don't mind playing against them at all. Like a lot of the format, it's always going to be a group dependent question. Opinions of internet strangers are meaningless when you sit down for a game.

what if they do not have a group? as they bounce from store to store, should their stance on proxies not matter because they can't choose who they play with?

Quote from ajprokos »

what if they do not have a group? as they bounce from store to store, should their stance on proxies not matter because they can't choose who they play with?

Group in this context doesn't have to be a set play group. If you walk into a shop and sit down at a table, that's the group whose opinion on the topic matters. If the shop has a strict no proxy policy, your options are to either abide by that or not play. If everyone else at the shop plays 100% proxy decks and you're strongly anti-proxy, you either get past it or don't play. Your personal stance on proxies can affect who you're playing with. The opinions of anyone on this forum/reddit/twitter/whichever other online community has no impact on that.