Never had to deal with Leovold, but considering my playgroup runs a lot of Nekusar's, i wouldnt have minded him, really.
I'd have much preferred them bringing back Prime Time to Protean Hulk.
You might want to make a thread about Expropriate in that case, I've never seen anyone else complain about it.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
I'm not an expert on secondary markets, but I'm pretty sure the price of Leovold isn't because of us, so I expect almost no impact.
If you want to build Hulk dedicated combo, you can, just like Hermit Druid. We think there's enough fun and value for the target audience that it warranted coming off, and a few Flash/Hulk combos isn't going to scare it back on.
In other news, since Commander players know how to Top, you can still play that in this format!
I'm not an expert on secondary markets, but I'm pretty sure the price of Leovold isn't because of us, so I expect almost no impact.
If you want to build Hulk dedicated combo, you can, just like Hermit Druid. We think there's enough fun and value for the target audience that it warranted coming off, and a few Flash/Hulk combos isn't going to scare it back on.
In other news, since Commander players know how to Top, you can still play that in this format!
Same exact argument can be made for gifts though, except gifts is actually interesting as a value card
Guys..... Survival of the Fittest always has always done exactly what Protean Hulk can do and it does it better because if you draw any of the combo pieces with Protean Hulk you then have to like... play them or get them in somehow. Survival combo on the other hand usually costs around 6 mana (assuming you have no pieces and any creature) and then can be executed on turn 7. If you get any of the pieces to hand with survival combo it goes off for less mana and needs no other card to execute it for you where as Protean Hulk executes the same combos but needs a sac outlet plus seven mana. You could just as easily do a Tooth and Nail combo and in fact its probably easier to do than Hulk combo.
I really don't see why people are losing their *****. Guys..... its literally Survival combo and it costs essentially the same but is more corner case in executing it. Protean Hulk unban in no way equates to Gifts Ungiven. If you feel that card should be unbanned... congratulations, they are not the same card. One being unbanned puts no precedent on the other.
RC - thanks, I think this was a great move on both cards.
I'm not an expert on secondary markets, but I'm pretty sure the price of Leovold isn't because of us, so I expect almost no impact.
If you want to build Hulk dedicated combo, you can, just like Hermit Druid. We think there's enough fun and value for the target audience that it warranted coming off, and a few Flash/Hulk combos isn't going to scare it back on.
In other news, since Commander players know how to Top, you can still play that in this format!
I think you are underestimating the amount of play Leovold, Emissary of Trest saw in EDH. He was spiking before we was doing well in Legacy. According to EDH REC, there are about as many Leovold decks as there are Queen Marchesa decks, another very popular recent commander. Of course, Queen Marchesa isn't nearly as valuable because she doesn't have the best EDH colors and her effect isn't nearly as unique. Sure the price won't cut in half, but I anticipate a noticeable if not significant dip. It is from a set that wasn't opened a lot and there are going to be hundreds if not thousands of EDH players that will be dumping their copies now.
Are you able to comment on any other cards that the Commander Rules Committee discussed that were in consideration of being removed from the banlist? Or perhaps a card you were in favor or removing that your peers disagreed with you on?
I think you are underestimating the amount of play Leovold, Emissary of Trest saw in EDH. He was spiking before we was doing well in Legacy. According to EDH REC, there are about as many Leovold decks as there are Queen Marchesa decks, another very popular recent commander. Of course, Queen Marchesa isn't nearly as valuable because she doesn't have the best EDH colors and her effect isn't nearly as unique. Sure the price won't cut in half, but I anticipate a noticeable if not significant dip. It is from a set that wasn't opened a lot and there are going to be hundreds if not thousands of EDH players that will be dumping their copies now.
Are you able to comment on any other cards that the Commander Rules Committee discussed that were in consideration of being removed from the banlist? Or perhaps a card you were in favor or removing that your peers disagreed with you on?
Queen Marchesa's effect is way more unique than Leovold, Emissary of Trest's considering there's just 18 cards total adding monarch to a game and only 3 of those are constructed playable.
Leovold, Emissary of Trest is a powerful stax effect that is relevant in virtually every game. It also can protect itself and other creatures you control via card advantage.
Queen Marchesa offers a card advantage engine that will likely not remain in your control the entire game. She also encourages players to attack you.
There are several legendary creatures that provide card advantage (including Leovold), but how many of them prevent opponents from drawing additional cards?
This is a very welcome change in the rules. I don't think the format needs Hulk, but I don't think it will do much harm. Leovold, on the other hand, is just plain toxic to the default version of the format.
bans leovold because he easily locks players out of the game. Doesn't ban Iona because herp derp.
As much as I support Iona getting the boot as well, there is still a difference between "easily locks out all other players of the game" and "can lock out a single player for the rest of the game because of their color choice (and inverse-archenemy) while also ironically regardless of their color choice (because Iona can flexibly choose a color and apply the stax effect - other hate cards aren't that flexible and the flexible ones aren't that detrimental in effect)."
Leovold's case is so plain obvious that he got the boot in less than a year after release, which honestly in EDH terms is pretty much banned-in-the-announcement-after-the-PT for Standard cards (just look at how long the debate for Hulk took before this). Iona is more similar in Hulk in that aspect - it's potentially broken rather than outright broken and that "broken" part is debatable, as much as I'm a strong supporter that "a single card that has the potential to lock out a player undermining two major aspects of EDH (multiplayer subverted via Inverse Archenemy and color identity via color choice-stax) should not be permitted regardless of how much that situation actually happens", I also recognize that it doesn't happen a lot of time and is a valid point of view when looking at the format across the board, even if I don't feel it should be valid for Iona in particular because I value the flavor structural integrity of the format perhaps a bit too much (which Iona can undermine greatly).
Okay enough about Iona-rant (man I just keep going when people talk about Iona), if anyone feels like raising the topic back again, there's a thread I created back then in the rules subforum (although we pretty much exhausted every argument). Now onto Protean Hulk...
I'm fully expecting a Kokusho-Situation for Hulk, maybe less so for the competitive groups (since it is more or less more "direct" wincon unlike Kokusho), but ultimately I don't see it as magnitudes faster and/or worse than the array of combos we already have out there in the format. Perhaps a little easier to "hijack" because it a creature, but I also doubt it will be anywhere close the likes of Primeval Titan in terms of being centralizing that it would tear apart competitive groups like PT did to literally everyone.
This is such BS. So now I can't play with a card I paid $40 for, even though it's not my Commander, but only in my 99. **** all you piece of ***** ******** Spikes that decided to be "cute" with your obsession to win in the most obnoxious ways possible. You know what really needs to be banned in EDH? YOU!!! All you worthless POSes that think your so awesome and clever with your turn three combos and infinite turns and Ionas. You are a cancer on this game and this world and <snip> YOU are the problem, not a piece of cardboard. Powerful cards don't make EDH unfun... people who abuse them are. You should be banned, not Leovold.
bans leovold because he easily locks players out of the game. Doesn't ban Iona because herp derp.
As much as I support Iona getting the boot as well, there is still a difference between "easily locks out all other players of the game" and "can lock out a single player for the rest of the game because of their color choice (and inverse-archenemy) while also ironically regardless of their color choice (because Iona can flexibly choose a color and apply the stax effect - other hate cards aren't that flexible and the flexible ones aren't that detrimental in effect)."
Leovold's case is so plain obvious that he got the boot in less than a year after release, which honestly in EDH terms is pretty much banned-in-the-announcement-after-the-PT for Standard cards (just look at how long the debate for Hulk took before this). Iona is more similar in Hulk in that aspect - it's potentially broken rather than outright broken and that "broken" part is debatable, as much as I'm a strong supporter that "a single card that has the potential to lock out a player undermining two major aspects of EDH (multiplayer subverted via Inverse Archenemy and color identity via color choice-stax) should not be permitted regardless of how much that situation actually happens", I also recognize that it doesn't happen a lot of time and is a valid point of view when looking at the format across the board, even if I don't feel it should be valid for Iona in particular because I value the flavor structural integrity of the format perhaps a bit too much (which Iona can undermine greatly).
Okay enough about Iona-rant (man I just keep going when people talk about Iona), if anyone feels like raising the topic back again, there's a thread in the rules subforum I created back then (although we pretty much exhausted every argument). Now onto Protean Hulk...
I'm fully expecting a Kokusho-Situation for Hulk, maybe less so for the competitive groups (since it is more or less more "direct" wincon unlike Kokusho), but ultimately I don't see it as magnitudes faster and/or worse than the array of combos we already have out there in the format. Perhaps a little easier to "hijack" because it a creature, but I also doubt it will be anywhere close the likes of Primeval Titan in terms of being centralizing that it would tear apart competitive groups like PT did to literally everyone.
It's not about how broken Iona is (Shes not). I don't think either Iona or Leovold should be banned. I'm pointing out the inconsistent ban criteria. If the justification for banning a card is that it locks players out and leads to unfun situations then both Leovold and Iona should be banned or neither. I'm in favor of neither.
It's not about how broken Iona is (Shes not). I don't think either Iona or Leovold should be banned. I'm pointing out the inconsistent ban criteria. If the justification for banning a card is that it locks players out and leads to unfun situations then both Leovold and Iona should be banned or neither. I'm in favor of neither.
The justification is easily locks players out and despite being just one word, it's functionally a lot of difference when comparing two Legendary creatures in this format, especially when the Command Zone is involved. Leovold is magnitudes easier to lock out someone when he is in the Command Zone compared to Iona, because Iona works better in the 99 than in the Command Zone.
Of course if the Banned as Commander List still existed and Leovold was outright banned I would argue that he is acceptable in a 99 (even though considering the other 3 still-banned cards that were on the list were all in his colors and around his CMC to boot), but this isn't the case.
I understand that people are frustrated right now, but please make sure that you calm down before posting. There's no reason to flame others, particularly the RC, over a banlist announcement.
bans leovold because he easily locks players out of the game. Doesn't ban Iona because herp derp.
As much as I support Iona getting the boot as well, there is still a difference between "easily locks out all other players of the game" and "can lock out a single player for the rest of the game because of their color choice (and inverse-archenemy) while also ironically regardless of their color choice (because Iona can flexibly choose a color and apply the stax effect - other hate cards aren't that flexible and the flexible ones aren't that detrimental in effect)."
Leovold's case is so plain obvious that he got the boot in less than a year after release, which honestly in EDH terms is pretty much banned-in-the-announcement-after-the-PT for Standard cards (just look at how long the debate for Hulk took before this). Iona is more similar in Hulk in that aspect - it's potentially broken rather than outright broken and that "broken" part is debatable, as much as I'm a strong supporter that "a single card that has the potential to lock out a player undermining two major aspects of EDH (multiplayer subverted via Inverse Archenemy and color identity via color choice-stax) should not be permitted regardless of how much that situation actually happens", I also recognize that it doesn't happen a lot of time and is a valid point of view when looking at the format across the board, even if I don't feel it should be valid for Iona in particular because I value the flavor structural integrity of the format perhaps a bit too much (which Iona can undermine greatly).
Okay enough about Iona-rant (man I just keep going when people talk about Iona), if anyone feels like raising the topic back again, there's a thread in the rules subforum I created back then (although we pretty much exhausted every argument). Now onto Protean Hulk...
I'm fully expecting a Kokusho-Situation for Hulk, maybe less so for the competitive groups (since it is more or less more "direct" wincon unlike Kokusho), but ultimately I don't see it as magnitudes faster and/or worse than the array of combos we already have out there in the format. Perhaps a little easier to "hijack" because it a creature, but I also doubt it will be anywhere close the likes of Primeval Titan in terms of being centralizing that it would tear apart competitive groups like PT did to literally everyone.
It's not about how broken Iona is (Shes not). I don't think either Iona or Leovold should be banned. I'm pointing out the inconsistent ban criteria. If the justification for banning a card is that it locks players out and leads to unfun situations then both Leovold and Iona should be banned or neither. I'm in favor of neither.
This. And WTF is up with the change they made a few years back about having just one banlist instead of two? That's insulting. Like an EDH player can't keep track of two separate lists... I'm done with the banlist. I'm gonna play whatever I like, because even if I have a Disk, Forge and Lattice in my hand, I'm not going to drop it unless the game state requires it. Why? Because I normally have some semblance of good nature and restraint. I say normally, because right now is NOT one of those times. And if anyone has a problem with me playing whatever I want, you can kick me out the game, then eat a dick. But I'm done with all these ******* ass banlists, the bull***** reasoning behind them and the asshats that make them a requirement. And since I'm likely to get banned for my beliefs and language, screw all you that don't feel me and I'm out.
It's not about how broken Iona is (Shes not). I don't think either Iona or Leovold should be banned. I'm pointing out the inconsistent ban criteria. If the justification for banning a card is that it locks players out and leads to unfun situations then both Leovold and Iona should be banned or neither. I'm in favor of neither.
The justification is easily locks players out and despite being just one word, it's functionally a lot of difference when comparing two Legendary creatures in this format, especially when the Command Zone is involved. Leovold is magnitudes easier to lock out someone when he is in the Command Zone compared to Iona, because Iona works better in the 99 than in the Command Zone.
Of course if the Banned as Commander List still existed and Leovold was outright banned I would argue that he is acceptable in a 99 (even though considering the other 3 still-banned cards that were on the list were all in his colors and around his CMC to boot), but this isn't the case.
Iona is harder to remove because she can lock out the color that has the highest likelihood of packing removal. Leovold dies to anything. Sure he can be protected via counter magic to an extent but if the leovold player is trading counters for removal one for one then they're losing. Iona crushes an aspect of the game that is at the heart of commander; color choice.
Iona is harder to remove because she can lock out the color that has the highest likelihood of packing removal. Leovold dies to anything. Sure he can be protected via counter magic to an extent but if the leovold player is trading counters for removal one for one then they're losing. Iona crushes an aspect of the game that is at the heart of commander; color choice.
Leovold did not need to be banned.
You're looking at the cards at a vacuum with regards to removal (and without looking at card advantage on top of that), which isn't the way to judge cards when it comes to deciding for ban lists. Plenty of (if not all) Leovold decks are built with the intent of generating much more card advantage than all other opponents in the game and Leovold does that splendidly to the point that trading removal one for one is no loss if you're drawing more than 3 cards a turn while everyone else is drawing only one. Add in the wheel combos for the more competitive metas and all it takes is for everyone else to happen to not have removal on the spot and you effectively locked everyone else of any chance of removal as opposed to locking only the color with the highest likelihood (which isn't even a guarantee with colorless running about).
I don't know that Hulk will wreck the format or anything, but Protean Hulk plus Flash is about as good as combos get: two cards and two mana to win the game at instant speed if you build your deck for it. We will be seeing turn-one and turn-two wins because of this. Nothing other cards can't already do in broad terms, but still powerful stuff.
This is such BS. So now I can't play with a card I paid $40 for, even though it's not my Commander, but only in my 99. **** all you piece of ***** ******** Spikes that decided to be "cute" with your obsession to win in the most obnoxious ways possible. You know what really needs to be banned in EDH? YOU!!! All you worthless POSes that think your so awesome and clever with your turn three combos and infinite turns and Ionas. You are a cancer on this game and this world and <snip> YOU are the problem, not a piece of cardboard. Powerful cards don't make EDH unfun... people who abuse them are. You should be banned, not Leovold.
If it's any consolation, you should be able to recoup your money. The card is still played in Legacy and Vintage.
People play commander for different reasons. I know people who play crazy turn 3 combo decks, and they play twice a week and have a blast.
I also know people who are looking for something fun and unique.
EDH is my favourite format because there is so much variety in power level, deck building goals, cards played, and experiences.
While I don't enjoy ultra competitive metas with consistent turn 3 wins, some people do. The hard part is finding a playgroup that matches your play goals.
Keep in mind also that the RC does not ban cards based on use in competitive EDH. Cards are banned almost exclusively because they are too powerful by themselves in the format. Leovold as a commander apparently was too powerful, even in casual settings.
Unfortunately, without the banned as commander list, we won't be able to argue for Leovold's inclusion in the 99. I think it would probably be okay. Hopefully we will get there again some day.
I spent $60 total, if not more, to grab Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial and Griselbrand for my decks when they were playable. I got to play with Prime Time for two weeks, Sylvan for three, and Grisel for four days. I laugh at the saltiness here over Leovold, who aside from easily locking out players, could become the focus of a game just like Prime/Sylvan...assuming you could get past his colors and answers. I shed no tears...that frickin' elf was toxic, pure and simple.
I was a LITTLE late to the party, so I paid more than I wanted for Hulk, but I'm interested in seeing how it goes. There are far more exile answers nowadays, so I think Hulk is going to be eating its fair share to screw potential combos over, keeping things fairly balanced for the most part. I can only wonder if I should keep T&N in the same deck as Hulk, or not...*evil grin*
Guys..... Survival of the Fittest always has always done exactly what Protean Hulk can do and it does it better because if you draw any of the combo pieces with Protean Hulk you then have to like... play them or get them in somehow. Survival combo on the other hand usually costs around 6 mana (assuming you have no pieces and any creature) and then can be executed on turn 7. If you get any of the pieces to hand with survival combo it goes off for less mana and needs no other card to execute it for you where as Protean Hulk executes the same combos but needs a sac outlet plus seven mana. You could just as easily do a Tooth and Nail combo and in fact its probably easier to do than Hulk combo.
I really don't see why people are losing their *****. Guys..... its literally Survival combo and it costs essentially the same but is more corner case in executing it. Protean Hulk unban in no way equates to Gifts Ungiven. If you feel that card should be unbanned... congratulations, they are not the same card. One being unbanned puts no precedent on the other.
RC - thanks, I think this was a great move on both cards.
I ordered two foil copies before prices jumped
Entomb + Necromancy is instant win after sac at end of turn. Seems less costly than the survival setup. These are in tutor colors.
Flash + Hulk costs less than survival if you are using Volrath's Shapeshifter as the least costly way to combo off with survival.
Then there is Sneek Attack and Through the Breach which can be used as well. Again no sac outlet needed.
Goes off sooner than turn 7. Combos with a million different things. Just like gifts. Both cards are abnoxious.
Hulk can win in pure BG too, it doesn't need white.
If you have a sac outlet on the battlefield you may just fetch Mike and Ballista. If you don't have a sac outlet, go for Phyrexian Delver and Viscera Seer (or Carrion Feeder), pick Hulk with Delvers etb, then sac Hulk to Seer, fetch Mike and Ballista.
Ballista no workey with Mike. If Ballista dies, it returns as a 1/1 with one +1/+1 counter, which it can then fire off...and then it's stuck. People tend to forget Mike is an anthem as well.
That said, yes, Hulk has early infinite combos, but so do a lot of cards that can be played fairly. I'm interested to see where it goes - if one hadn't guessed from my earlier posts in the Hulk thread yet.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras. Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power. Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza. Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall. Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana. Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die. Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
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Never had to deal with Leovold, but considering my playgroup runs a lot of Nekusar's, i wouldnt have minded him, really.
I'd have much preferred them bringing back Prime Time to Protean Hulk.
You might want to make a thread about Expropriate in that case, I've never seen anyone else complain about it.
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
If you want to build Hulk dedicated combo, you can, just like Hermit Druid. We think there's enough fun and value for the target audience that it warranted coming off, and a few Flash/Hulk combos isn't going to scare it back on.
In other news, since Commander players know how to Top, you can still play that in this format!
Same exact argument can be made for gifts though, except gifts is actually interesting as a value card
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I really don't see why people are losing their *****. Guys..... its literally Survival combo and it costs essentially the same but is more corner case in executing it. Protean Hulk unban in no way equates to Gifts Ungiven. If you feel that card should be unbanned... congratulations, they are not the same card. One being unbanned puts no precedent on the other.
RC - thanks, I think this was a great move on both cards.
I ordered two foil copies before prices jumped
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[Modern] Allies
I think you are underestimating the amount of play Leovold, Emissary of Trest saw in EDH. He was spiking before we was doing well in Legacy. According to EDH REC, there are about as many Leovold decks as there are Queen Marchesa decks, another very popular recent commander. Of course, Queen Marchesa isn't nearly as valuable because she doesn't have the best EDH colors and her effect isn't nearly as unique. Sure the price won't cut in half, but I anticipate a noticeable if not significant dip. It is from a set that wasn't opened a lot and there are going to be hundreds if not thousands of EDH players that will be dumping their copies now.
Are you able to comment on any other cards that the Commander Rules Committee discussed that were in consideration of being removed from the banlist? Or perhaps a card you were in favor or removing that your peers disagreed with you on?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
Leovold, Emissary of Trest is a powerful stax effect that is relevant in virtually every game. It also can protect itself and other creatures you control via card advantage.
Queen Marchesa offers a card advantage engine that will likely not remain in your control the entire game. She also encourages players to attack you.
There are several legendary creatures that provide card advantage (including Leovold), but how many of them prevent opponents from drawing additional cards?
UBRKess, Dissident MageUBR - Controlling Dissidents
GRhonas the IndomitableG - Indomitable Four Drops
WUBOloro, Ageless AsceticWUB - Loot & Renanimate
As much as I support Iona getting the boot as well, there is still a difference between "easily locks out all other players of the game" and "can lock out a single player for the rest of the game because of their color choice (and inverse-archenemy) while also ironically regardless of their color choice (because Iona can flexibly choose a color and apply the stax effect - other hate cards aren't that flexible and the flexible ones aren't that detrimental in effect)."
Leovold's case is so plain obvious that he got the boot in less than a year after release, which honestly in EDH terms is pretty much banned-in-the-announcement-after-the-PT for Standard cards (just look at how long the debate for Hulk took before this). Iona is more similar in Hulk in that aspect - it's potentially broken rather than outright broken and that "broken" part is debatable, as much as I'm a strong supporter that "a single card that has the potential to lock out a player undermining two major aspects of EDH (multiplayer subverted via Inverse Archenemy and color identity via color choice-stax) should not be permitted regardless of how much that situation actually happens", I also recognize that it doesn't happen a lot of time and is a valid point of view when looking at the format across the board, even if I don't feel it should be valid for Iona in particular because I value the flavor structural integrity of the format perhaps a bit too much (which Iona can undermine greatly).
Okay enough about Iona-rant (man I just keep going when people talk about Iona), if anyone feels like raising the topic back again, there's a thread I created back then in the rules subforum (although we pretty much exhausted every argument). Now onto Protean Hulk...
I'm fully expecting a Kokusho-Situation for Hulk, maybe less so for the competitive groups (since it is more or less more "direct" wincon unlike Kokusho), but ultimately I don't see it as magnitudes faster and/or worse than the array of combos we already have out there in the format. Perhaps a little easier to "hijack" because it a creature, but I also doubt it will be anywhere close the likes of Primeval Titan in terms of being centralizing that it would tear apart competitive groups like PT did to literally everyone.
It's not about how broken Iona is (Shes not). I don't think either Iona or Leovold should be banned. I'm pointing out the inconsistent ban criteria. If the justification for banning a card is that it locks players out and leads to unfun situations then both Leovold and Iona should be banned or neither. I'm in favor of neither.
The justification is easily locks players out and despite being just one word, it's functionally a lot of difference when comparing two Legendary creatures in this format, especially when the Command Zone is involved. Leovold is magnitudes easier to lock out someone when he is in the Command Zone compared to Iona, because Iona works better in the 99 than in the Command Zone.
Of course if the Banned as Commander List still existed and Leovold was outright banned I would argue that he is acceptable in a 99 (even though considering the other 3 still-banned cards that were on the list were all in his colors and around his CMC to boot), but this isn't the case.
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Iona is harder to remove because she can lock out the color that has the highest likelihood of packing removal. Leovold dies to anything. Sure he can be protected via counter magic to an extent but if the leovold player is trading counters for removal one for one then they're losing. Iona crushes an aspect of the game that is at the heart of commander; color choice.
Leovold did not need to be banned.
You're looking at the cards at a vacuum with regards to removal (and without looking at card advantage on top of that), which isn't the way to judge cards when it comes to deciding for ban lists. Plenty of (if not all) Leovold decks are built with the intent of generating much more card advantage than all other opponents in the game and Leovold does that splendidly to the point that trading removal one for one is no loss if you're drawing more than 3 cards a turn while everyone else is drawing only one. Add in the wheel combos for the more competitive metas and all it takes is for everyone else to happen to not have removal on the spot and you effectively locked everyone else of any chance of removal as opposed to locking only the color with the highest likelihood (which isn't even a guarantee with colorless running about).
If it's any consolation, you should be able to recoup your money. The card is still played in Legacy and Vintage.
People play commander for different reasons. I know people who play crazy turn 3 combo decks, and they play twice a week and have a blast.
I also know people who are looking for something fun and unique.
EDH is my favourite format because there is so much variety in power level, deck building goals, cards played, and experiences.
While I don't enjoy ultra competitive metas with consistent turn 3 wins, some people do. The hard part is finding a playgroup that matches your play goals.
Keep in mind also that the RC does not ban cards based on use in competitive EDH. Cards are banned almost exclusively because they are too powerful by themselves in the format. Leovold as a commander apparently was too powerful, even in casual settings.
Unfortunately, without the banned as commander list, we won't be able to argue for Leovold's inclusion in the 99. I think it would probably be okay. Hopefully we will get there again some day.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
I was a LITTLE late to the party, so I paid more than I wanted for Hulk, but I'm interested in seeing how it goes. There are far more exile answers nowadays, so I think Hulk is going to be eating its fair share to screw potential combos over, keeping things fairly balanced for the most part. I can only wonder if I should keep T&N in the same deck as Hulk, or not...*evil grin*
EDH decks: 1. RGWMayael's Big BeatsRETIRED!
2. BUWMerieke Ri Berit and the 40 Thieves
3. URNiv's Wheeling and Dealing!
4. BURThe Walking Dead
5. GWSisay's Legends of Tomorrow
6. RWBRise of Markov
7. GElvez and stuffz(W)
8. RCrush your enemies(W)
9. BSign right here...(W)
Entomb + Necromancy is instant win after sac at end of turn. Seems less costly than the survival setup. These are in tutor colors.
Flash + Hulk costs less than survival if you are using Volrath's Shapeshifter as the least costly way to combo off with survival.
Then there is Sneek Attack and Through the Breach which can be used as well. Again no sac outlet needed.
Goes off sooner than turn 7. Combos with a million different things. Just like gifts. Both cards are abnoxious.
Ballista no workey with Mike. If Ballista dies, it returns as a 1/1 with one +1/+1 counter, which it can then fire off...and then it's stuck. People tend to forget Mike is an anthem as well.
That said, yes, Hulk has early infinite combos, but so do a lot of cards that can be played fairly. I'm interested to see where it goes - if one hadn't guessed from my earlier posts in the Hulk thread yet.