Hmm... Oath of Lim-Dul is going to refute any Deathgrip solution. Lifeforce is still an option though.
The more I think about it, the more I think that the best solution will be to counter spells by making their targets disappear. Maybe you put a spell that targets a creature on isochron sceptre, point it at something, then sac that something before the spell resolves and draw a card off Multani's Presence....
Your library is empty thanks to Leveller. During your upkeep, activate Words to get a bear (and not lose) during your draw step. Cast Slaughter Pact targeting the bear. Sac the bear to Ashnod's Altar for two mana in response, countering slaughter pact and triggering two card draws. Spend 1 to replace one of those draws with a bear, and use Junktroller to put Slaughter Pact on the bottom (i.e. top) of your library for the other draw. Repeat, netting 1 mana each time.
EDIT: I guess if you cut lullmage and chalice and replace summoner's with pact of the titan then fecundity could stand in for multani's presence... maybe that would be a refutation? not exactly sure since it removes so many of the cards in the original
EDIT: I guess if you cut lullmage and chalice and replace summoner's with pact of the titan then fecundity could stand in for multani's presence... maybe that would be a refutation? not exactly sure since it removes so many of the cards in the original
In case this wins, I think aslidsiksoraksi can take the credit, because this combo is mostly his and I have already suggested four cards (if we count the two unsolved cards Lightning rift and humility)
Recycle refutes, so long as you put its draw trigger from casting Summoner's Pact on the stack before the Chalice trigger. Also, while there may not be any more UG creatures that tap for a free token, there is Presence of Gond. Not sure if that helps at all.
So, I've been thinking that development of most - if not all - of these combos is more of a group than an individual effort, making it hard to assign a winning user when a winning combo is found. That's not really a big deal, except that it'd be nice to have an algorithmic way to pick the next card and "winner picks" sounds perfectly reasonable. Not that I have any idea how to resolve this tension between needing to have a winner and it being hard (and it'll only get harder if more users start playing) to actually pick a winner.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
Since we are allowed to remove more cards and get the mana from them (atleast as I understand it
That's the rule we're using until some suggests changing it. Note that no matter how many cards you remove, you still only get to add one (no "this is refuted by removing all of the cards and replacing them with Kiki-Jiki and Deceiver Exarch").
So, I've been thinking that development of most - if not all - of these combos is more of a group than an individual effort, making it hard to assign a winning user when a winning combo is found. That's not really a big deal, except that it'd be nice to have an algorithmic way to pick the next card and "winner picks" sounds perfectly reasonable. Not that I have any idea how to resolve this tension between needing to have a winner and it being hard (and it'll only get harder if more users start playing) to actually pick a winner.
I like that it's a group effort, and I think the rule can just be that the last person to tweak a combo before it goes unrefuted counts as the author for purposes of choosing the next card. It incentivizes fixing slightly broken combos, which is nice. For the purposes of immortal glory in the sight of God, we can still acknowledge that the combo had multiple authors. There's also no problem with people ceding their turn to choose a card to someone else if they like.
Recycle refutes, so long as you put its draw trigger from casting Summoner's Pact on the stack before the Chalice trigger. Also, while there may not be any more UG creatures that tap for a free token, there is Presence of Gond. Not sure if that helps at all.
If you only remove a 1 mana card (and cannot get mana from the combo), your refutation card can only require 1 mana (if it most be played).
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
Dang, I should have known that Thornbite Staff and Blasting Station would have some kind of easy combo-maker between them. I was really counting on the lose cc of Multani's Presence to make alternatives hard.
Not to be presumptuous but if it fell to me to pick a card (thank you Reaper9889), I'd pick the beautiful Sekki, Seasons' Guide. Bonus points if the combo is mono-green so you can build an amazing Season's Guide combo deck. Though he may be too easy otherwise...
I think that all of the infinite combos involving Multani's Presence require you to build your own Recycle. If so, how does Recycle not refute all of these?
I think that all of the infinite combos involving Multani's Presence require you to build your own Recycle. If so, how does Recycle not refute all of these?
I don't know if the premise (that the only infinite combos with Multani's Presence involve turning it into a virtual Recycle) is true, but if it is then your conclusion (Recycle refutes every Multani's Presence combo) looks right to me. Edit: If the combo also involves exiling your library for Junktroller shenanigans, it's possible that actual Recycle could cause you to deck yourself where the virtual Recycle through Multani's Presence might not. Definitely depends on the rest of the combo, though.
I don't know if the premise (that the only infinite combos with Multani's Presence involve turning it into a virtual Recycle) is true, but if it is then your conclusion (Recycle refutes every Multani's Presence combo) looks right to me.
After having re-read Recycle, I noticed that it cares about cards played, whereas Multani's Presence cares about spells cast. Since you can cast copies of spells that are not necessarily cards (and counter them too), you can build a draw engine from Multani's Presence that you could not build with Recycle.
EDIT: However, there are only 10 cards containing the phrase, "cast the copy" in all of Magic. Of those 10 cards,the most promising ones look to be Elite Arcanist, Eye of the Storm, and Isochron Scepter. All of these can go infinite without Multani's Presence.
Well, if we want recycle or similar to not be a combo if they replaced Multani's Presence (ignoring the difference in card cost), we could use Slaughter Pact and say Grizzly Bears (or some other creature to target in the first parts of the combo before sacrificing it) over Chalice of the Void and Summoner's Pact.
Pact would then first be countered upon resolution and therefore we would draw (with recycle) before we shuffled it in. This differs from Multani's Presence in that we would wait until after pact has resolved to draw (which would be after it was shuffled back in).
Edit: Doh. Lullmage requires a spell or abillity to do the countering, so this wont work.
Well, if we want recycle or similar to not be a combo if they replaced Multani's Presence (ignoring the difference in card cost), we could use Slaughter Pact and say Grizzly Bears (or some other creature to target in the first parts of the combo before sacrificing it) over Chalice of the Void and Summoner's Pact.
Pact would then first be countered upon resolution and therefore we would draw (with recycle) before we shuffled it in. This differs from Multani's Presence in that we would wait until after pact has resolved to draw (which would be after it was shuffled back in).
Edit: Doh. Lullmage requires a spell or abillity to do the countering, so this wont work.
Hmm, I think I figured out how to make a combo that works with Multani's Presence, but not recycle (or I suspect anything else)
If one was using recycle over Multani's Presence, the card draw would happen before the pact has been countered and been put back into the deck and thus one would lose to drawing from an empty library.
If one was using Fecundity, one would have to let the pact resolve without sacrificing (otherwise, the draw would happen too early) and the combo would do nothing without more cards
If one was using Teysa, Orzhov Scion (and changed black to white or white to black on that instead of on fable) it wouldnt work because of the missing black/white creature to sac to get it started.
This looks good to me, with the Thran Lens addition of course.
To be precise I do not think anyone refuted my first wheel of sun and moon combo. This is just to ensure that recycle does not refute, without taking the fact that recycle is more expensive into account (and therefore cant refute)
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
(Note: I'm shocked that there doesn't seem to be a single card in RG that gives a blanket +X/+0 to all your guys. If there was, we could use it in place of Flowstone Surge and Long-Forgotten Gohei. Raiders' Spoils works if we're willing to go into Jund.)
Start with all the cards on the battlefield. Sacrifice Memnite to Blasting Station, dealing one damage to Sekki, removing a counter and putting a spirit into play. This triggers Cathars', which puts a +1/+1 counter on all your creatures, including Sekki and your Badgers. Blasting Station untaps, allowing you to sacrifice the spirit to do one damage to Sekki again. Repeat until your badgers are big enough to kill everyone, swing with enormous badgers.
Edit: There's probably a mono-green version of this that gets infinite etb and death triggers, at least, but cathars' was the cheapest way to get the +1/+1 counters back on Sekki.
You don't need to put +1/+1 counters on Sekki, Seasons' Guide in order to go infinite, you just need to make sure it doesn't die as a state based effect for having zero toughness.
Step 1) Ping Sekki, Sekki's second ability triggers, creating two tokens with Parallel Lives
Step 2) Blasting Station's untap ability triggers twice, use one untap and a token to ping a player and the other to ping Sekki. Repeat until the table is dead.
You don't need to put +1/+1 counters on Sekki, Seasons' Guide in order to go infinite, you just need to make sure it doesn't die as a state based effect for having zero toughness.
Nice. I have a refutation for wallycaine's combo anyhow: Kitchen Finks (Or any other persist creature) does infinite damage with just Blasting Station and Cathar's Crusade.
Sprouting Phytohydra is cheaper than Sekki, though, and goes infinite with only 2 of those cards (parallel lives and blasting station) though you'd need something to work off of the death triggers, and another creature to start things off with. The cheapest seems to be rot shambler, who would end up being infinitely large.
You don't need to put +1/+1 counters on Sekki, Seasons' Guide in order to go infinite, you just need to make sure it doesn't die as a state based effect for having zero toughness.
Step 1) Ping Sekki, Sekki's second ability triggers, creating two tokens with Parallel Lives
Step 2) Blasting Station's untap ability triggers twice, use one untap and a token to ping a player and the other to ping Sekki. Repeat until the table is dead.
Sadly, Aerie Ouphes+Ivy Lane Denizen goes infinite with Blasting Station, now that 256k has reminded me. So that probably refutes any possible combo with Blasting Station in it. Maybe there's something to be made from Squallmonger, after giving Sekki flying?
Edit: Ahh, forgot that it can't be two cards added. Sprouting does work as refutation, though, as the original combo includes "any creature or way to damage Sekki", which could obviously be used to damage Phytohydra.
Sprouting Phytohydra is cheaper than Sekki, though, and goes infinite with only 2 of those cards (parallel lives and blasting station) though you'd need something to work off of the death triggers, and another creature to start things off with. The cheapest seems to be rot shambler, who would end up being infinitely large.
You don't need any death trigger shenanigans, but you do need another creature.
Sacrifice a creature to Blasting Station, doing one damage to Phytohydra and getting two copies. You now have two Blasting Station untap triggers. Let the first one resolve and then sac the original Phytohydra to do one damage to an opponent. Let the second trigger resolve and start over.
Unfortunately, the need for another creature is enough to technically prevent it from being a refutation.
EDIT: Oops! Phytohydra IS a refutation because the combo it's refuting also needs another creature. Thanks wallycaine!
The more I think about it, the more I think that the best solution will be to counter spells by making their targets disappear. Maybe you put a spell that targets a creature on isochron sceptre, point it at something, then sac that something before the spell resolves and draw a card off Multani's Presence....
Your library is empty thanks to Leveller. During your upkeep, activate Words to get a bear (and not lose) during your draw step. Cast Slaughter Pact targeting the bear. Sac the bear to Ashnod's Altar for two mana in response, countering slaughter pact and triggering two card draws. Spend 1 to replace one of those draws with a bear, and use Junktroller to put Slaughter Pact on the bottom (i.e. top) of your library for the other draw. Repeat, netting 1 mana each time.
Win with mana outlet of your choice.
Multani's Presence + Leveler + Junktroller + Thornbite Staff + Blasting Station + Lullmage Mentor + Chalice of the Void(set to 0) + Summoner's Pact
Multani's Presence, Lullmage Mentor, and Chalice of the Void in play, along with the Leveler/Junktroller/Thornbite Staff package 256k already put together for us (thanks!). Cast Summoner's Pact. It gets countered by Chalice of the Void. Use Junktroller to put Summoner's Pact on top of your deck in time for the Multani's Presence trigger to get you to draw it. Now you have a 1/1 merfolk from Lullmage Mentor. Throw the merfolk at someone with Blasting Station, untap Junktroller via Thornbite Staff. Recast Summoner's Pact, and the new merfolk will untap Blasting Station. Repeat until you've thrown merfolk at everyone and they're all dead.
EDIT: I guess if you cut lullmage and chalice and replace summoner's with pact of the titan then fecundity could stand in for multani's presence... maybe that would be a refutation? not exactly sure since it removes so many of the cards in the original
EDIT2: replaced Nether Void with Chalice of the Void set at zero counters, since that removes a color.
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
Since we are allowed to remove more cards and get the mana from them (atleast as I understand it), this combo is refuted by Kazandu Tuskcaller replacing Multani's Presence, Leveler, Junktroller, Lullmage Mentor, Chalice of the Void, Summoner's Pact. This still does infinite damage with Thornbite Staff + Blasting Station. As far as I can see Kazandu Tuskcaller is oddly the only creature that can tap for a token in blue/green for free (if we kept a creature, Presence of Gond would also work though).
A side note: Does the fact that Thornbite Staff is equipped for free to Kazandu Tuskcaller give us more mana?
That said, I think one can just go Multani's Presence + Leveler + Wheel of Sun and Moon + Blasting Station + Lullmage Mentor + Chalice of the Void(set to 0) + Summoner's Pact for the same effect.
In case this wins, I think aslidsiksoraksi can take the credit, because this combo is mostly his and I have already suggested four cards (if we count the two unsolved cards Lightning rift and humility)
So, I've been thinking that development of most - if not all - of these combos is more of a group than an individual effort, making it hard to assign a winning user when a winning combo is found. That's not really a big deal, except that it'd be nice to have an algorithmic way to pick the next card and "winner picks" sounds perfectly reasonable. Not that I have any idea how to resolve this tension between needing to have a winner and it being hard (and it'll only get harder if more users start playing) to actually pick a winner.
That's the rule we're using until some suggests changing it. Note that no matter how many cards you remove, you still only get to add one (no "this is refuted by removing all of the cards and replacing them with Kiki-Jiki and Deceiver Exarch").
Follow your heart.
This is not refuting the Wheel of Sun and Moon version though right, but an earlier one?
I like that it's a group effort, and I think the rule can just be that the last person to tweak a combo before it goes unrefuted counts as the author for purposes of choosing the next card. It incentivizes fixing slightly broken combos, which is nice. For the purposes of immortal glory in the sight of God, we can still acknowledge that the combo had multiple authors. There's also no problem with people ceding their turn to choose a card to someone else if they like.
If you only remove a 1 mana card (and cannot get mana from the combo), your refutation card can only require 1 mana (if it most be played).
Not to be presumptuous but if it fell to me to pick a card (thank you Reaper9889), I'd pick the beautiful Sekki, Seasons' Guide. Bonus points if the combo is mono-green so you can build an amazing Season's Guide combo deck. Though he may be too easy otherwise...
Tymna & Ishai, ie Esper Edric
Crosis Turbotrash
Also, I think the best way to build your own Recycle with Multani's Presence is with Cephalid Shrine.
If we don't care about color identity then you're probably right.
Recycle refutes "Multani's Presence + Leveler + Junktroller + Thornbite Staff + Blasting Station + Lullmage Mentor + Chalice of the Void(set to 0) + Summoner's Pact" if refuting cards can be more expensive than the card their replacing, and obviously not otherwise.
After having re-read Recycle, I noticed that it cares about cards played, whereas Multani's Presence cares about spells cast. Since you can cast copies of spells that are not necessarily cards (and counter them too), you can build a draw engine from Multani's Presence that you could not build with Recycle.
EDIT: However, there are only 10 cards containing the phrase, "cast the copy" in all of Magic. Of those 10 cards,the most promising ones look to be Elite Arcanist, Eye of the Storm, and Isochron Scepter. All of these can go infinite without Multani's Presence.
Elite Arcanist + Evermind + Paradox Engine = Draw your deck
Eye of the Storm + Call to Mind (or any variation thereof) + Pull from Eternity + Twiddle = Arbitrary casts of every other instant/sorcery exiled with Eye of the Storm
Isochron Scepter + Manamorphose + Paradox Engine = Draw your deck
Well, if we want recycle or similar to not be a combo if they replaced Multani's Presence (ignoring the difference in card cost), we could use Slaughter Pact and say Grizzly Bears (or some other creature to target in the first parts of the combo before sacrificing it) over Chalice of the Void and Summoner's Pact.Pact would then first be countered upon resolution and therefore we would draw (with recycle) before we shuffled it in. This differs from Multani's Presence in that we would wait until after pact has resolved to draw (which would be after it was shuffled back in).
Edit: Doh. Lullmage requires a spell or abillity to do the countering, so this wont work.
Hmm, I think I figured out how to make a combo that works with Multani's Presence, but not recycle (or I suspect anything else)
In play: Multani's Presence + Blasting Station + Fable of Wolf and Owl
In hand: Leveler + Mind Bend + Wheel of Sun and Moon + Slaughter Pact
Initially: Play leveler, exiling the library. Play Mind bend on Fable of Wolf and Owl, changing blue to black. This also makes a blue bird token. Play Wheel of Sun and Moon (creating a wolf token - which isnt important)
1. Play Slaughter Pact on the bird token, creating a new black bird token, which also makes an untap trigger for blasting station
2. Sacrifice the bird token targeted by Slaughter Pact to blasting station in response to the trigger from blasting station
3. Let the untap trigger resolve.
4. Slaughter Pact is countered upon resolution, putting Slaughter Pact on the buttom of the deck because of wheel of sun and moon. This triggers Multani's Presence
5. Draw the card (suprise: it is Slaughter Pact) from Multani's Presence.
6. Go back to step 1.
If one was using recycle over Multani's Presence, the card draw would happen before the pact has been countered and been put back into the deck and thus one would lose to drawing from an empty library.
If one was using Fecundity, one would have to let the pact resolve without sacrificing (otherwise, the draw would happen too early) and the combo would do nothing without more cards
If one was using Teysa, Orzhov Scion (and changed black to white or white to black on that instead of on fable) it wouldnt work because of the missing black/white creature to sac to get it started.
Edit: fixed the spelling of Slaughter Pact
To be precise I do not think anyone refuted my first wheel of sun and moon combo. This is just to ensure that recycle does not refute, without taking the fact that recycle is more expensive into account (and therefore cant refute)
Sekki, Seasons' Guide makes infinite tokens and does infinite damage with Warstorm Surge, Flowstone Surge, and Long-Forgotten Gohei.
I'll cede victory to a monogreen combo though.
(Note: I'm shocked that there doesn't seem to be a single card in RG that gives a blanket +X/+0 to all your guys. If there was, we could use it in place of Flowstone Surge and Long-Forgotten Gohei. Raiders' Spoils works if we're willing to go into Jund.)
Start with all the cards on the battlefield. Sacrifice Memnite to Blasting Station, dealing one damage to Sekki, removing a counter and putting a spirit into play. This triggers Cathars', which puts a +1/+1 counter on all your creatures, including Sekki and your Badgers. Blasting Station untaps, allowing you to sacrifice the spirit to do one damage to Sekki again. Repeat until your badgers are big enough to kill everyone, swing with enormous badgers.
Edit: There's probably a mono-green version of this that gets infinite etb and death triggers, at least, but cathars' was the cheapest way to get the +1/+1 counters back on Sekki.
Sekki, Seasons' Guide + Gaea's Anthem + Parallel Lives + Blasting Station and any creature or way to damage Sekki is sufficient to combo out in monogreen.
Step 1) Ping Sekki, Sekki's second ability triggers, creating two tokens with Parallel Lives
Step 2) Blasting Station's untap ability triggers twice, use one untap and a token to ping a player and the other to ping Sekki. Repeat until the table is dead.
Nice. I have a refutation for wallycaine's combo anyhow: Kitchen Finks (Or any other persist creature) does infinite damage with just Blasting Station and Cathar's Crusade.
Edit: Ahh, forgot that it can't be two cards added. Sprouting does work as refutation, though, as the original combo includes "any creature or way to damage Sekki", which could obviously be used to damage Phytohydra.
You don't need any death trigger shenanigans, but you do need another creature.
Sacrifice a creature to Blasting Station, doing one damage to Phytohydra and getting two copies. You now have two Blasting Station untap triggers. Let the first one resolve and then sac the original Phytohydra to do one damage to an opponent. Let the second trigger resolve and start over.
Unfortunately, the need for another creature is enough to technically prevent it from being a refutation.EDIT: Oops! Phytohydra IS a refutation because the combo it's refuting also needs another creature. Thanks wallycaine!