I had misread the phoenix and thought it hit players as well, so I think Hunding can take the credit. That said, chromatic armor is in some sense less powerfull, since it would allow people to refute with blue or white cards.
Incidentally, this game rules and 256k rules for starting it.
I agree. That said, I worry abit that the 24 hour rule is too long (in the sense that there is a lot of activity for a while until some solution is found and then the thread is pretty dead for the next day)
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
There isn't really a "24 hour rule," that's just the rule of thumb I've been using for determining what constitutes "a reasonable amount of time."
Anyway, Squirrel Nest. (Although I think that probably doesn't count. It does make infinite tokens, which I think counts as a combo, but the existing combo can also kill this turn, so Squirrel Nest isn't really a replacement.)
Well, thats annoying. A solution would be to add 3 generic cost reduction (exactly 3 because of Ancestral Statue or only something that does not care about colorless) and remove mana flare. E.g. add Thornscape Familiar, Ruby Medallion and Nightscape Familiar. Note that only red gets reduced here in essence, because white and blue isnt used in the combo.
Btw. Crovax only refutes if we assume that you got infinite life as well. Wierding shaman doesnt work because you are missing a goblin to sac the first time. Also, are we assuming that we got 1 of each basic land in our colors for earthcraft for refutations?
Technical question: if we use cost reducers do a refutation need to pay for difference in cost after reduction? E.g. would we have 2 mana + cost reducers to refute with or 5 in the concrete case?
Well, thats annoying. A solution would be to add 3 generic cost reduction and remove mana flare. E.g. add Centaur Omenreader and urza's incubator. Btw. Crovax only refutes if we assume that you got infinite life as well. Wierding shaman doesnt work because you are missing a goblin to sac the first time. Also, are we assuming that we got 1 of each basic land in our colors for earthcraft for refutations?
Yeah, Crovax nets you 8 mana for 2 life. That's not quite enough to kill 3 opponents with Rocket Launcher assuming that everyone starts at 40 (although there are plenty of other mana outlets that could kill with 144 mana). And you're right about Weirding Shaman; too bad Endrek isn't a goblin.
As for Earthcraft, I think yes, we should assume you have one basic of each type in your colour identity, otherwise it seems outside the spirit of the game. Also, I've updated the original post with some thoughts on what constitutes a combo and a refutation. I welcome feedback.
And for visibility, here's the current combo we are working to refute:
I can't think of a single way to refute that (and in fact think it would still be safe with Centaur Omenreader or Urza's Incubator replacing the two familiars).
Let's give it a few hours to see if anyone else can find a refutation before we call it.
I can't think of a single way to refute that (and in fact think it would still be safe with Centaur Omenreader or Urza's Incubator replacing the two familiars).
Let's give it a few hours to see if anyone else can find a refutation before we call it.
Start things off with a drink and trigger Searing Meditation. Pay 6 life to the ogre for RR and use it to pay for Searing Meditation's trigger. When that resolves, and eight damage is applied to an opponent's face, you gain 8 life and trigger Searing Meditation. Each cycle puts you up 2 life and them down 8.
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You would never guess, at the terrifying sight of the man, that Hunding was as charming a companion as one could wish for.
Start things off with a drink and trigger Searing Meditation. Pay 6 life to the ogre for RR and use it to pay for Searing Meditation's trigger. When that resolves, and eight damage is applied to an opponent's face, you gain 8 life and trigger Searing Meditation. Each cycle puts you up 2 life and them down 8.
The problem here is that the Treasonous Ogre means that you have 10+ mana available for getting the combo started, so Exquisite Blood would count as a refutation.
We're in three colours thanks to Tamanoa, so let's assume the crawler has three counters on it. Tap the Crawler to make that four counters. Remove two counters to activate Ion Storm (removing a third counter from the Crawler and doing four damage). Gain four life thanks to Tamanoa and put four counters on the Crawler. Repeat.
Start things off with a drink and trigger Searing Meditation. Pay 6 life to the ogre for RR and use it to pay for Searing Meditation's trigger. When that resolves, and eight damage is applied to an opponent's face, you gain 8 life and trigger Searing Meditation. Each cycle puts you up 2 life and them down 8.
The problem here is that the Treasonous Ogre means that you have 10+ mana available for getting the combo started, so Exquisite Blood would count as a refutation.
Why does a black card count as a refutation in a green-white-red combo?
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
Start things off with a drink and trigger Searing Meditation. Pay 6 life to the ogre for RR and use it to pay for Searing Meditation's trigger. When that resolves, and eight damage is applied to an opponent's face, you gain 8 life and trigger Searing Meditation. Each cycle puts you up 2 life and them down 8.
The problem here is that the Treasonous Ogre means that you have 10+ mana available for getting the combo started, so Exquisite Blood would count as a refutation.
Why does a black card count as a refutation in a green-white-red combo?
With Tamanoa, it's a GWR combo. With Exquisite Blood it's a BWR combo (no green). Same number of colours, which is the rule we've been using. I'm open to the idea that we should be stricter about keeping the same colour identity, but it will make refuting a lot harder.
Start things off with a drink and trigger Searing Meditation. Pay 6 life to the ogre for RR and use it to pay for Searing Meditation's trigger. When that resolves, and eight damage is applied to an opponent's face, you gain 8 life and trigger Searing Meditation. Each cycle puts you up 2 life and them down 8.
The problem here is that the Treasonous Ogre means that you have 10+ mana available for getting the combo started, so Exquisite Blood would count as a refutation.
Why does a black card count as a refutation in a green-white-red combo?
With Tamanoa, it's a GWR combo. With Exquisite Blood it's a BWR combo (no green). Same number of colours, which is the rule we've been using. I'm open to the idea that we should be stricter about keeping the same colour identity, but it will make refuting a lot harder.
Ohh, good point! In the spirit of commander I think it would be better to do strict color indentity or no color indentity instead though because it becomes too hard to draw the line: e.g. if he had used a green life gain card over blessed wine and we use the current rules a strict reading would say that you could not use blood as refutation, but that would be silly (the life gain part is not that important for the suggested combo) and just make us use wierd cards because they force a specifick color identity.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
Okay, so it's time for a decision. Are the rules that refutations must fit within the colour identity of the combo they are refuting or that they must have the same number of colours (or fewer)?
In the first case, Hunding is the winner this round. In the second case, Slave To Phage.
Cast Hunting Pack (1 storm copy). Counter it with Deathgrip. Tap Junktroller to put Hunting Pack back on the bottom (i.e. top) of your library while the draw trigger from Multani's Presence is still on the stack. Draw Hunting Pack. Sacrifice a Beast to Phyrexian Altar, untapping Junktroller. Repeat.
The first iteration through will cost you 9 mana, bu you get one back from Phyrexian Altar, for a net cost of 8.
The second iteration, your storm count will be 2, so you'll have two token to sacrifice, for a net cost of 7.
The third iteration costs 6, and so on until it starts paying for itself and you can make infinite hasty tokens.
Incidentally, this game rules and 256k rules for starting it.
Indeed. Crovax, Ascendant Hero would be a refutation if we could go into white.
I agree. That said, I worry abit that the 24 hour rule is too long (in the sense that there is a lot of activity for a while until some solution is found and then the thread is pretty dead for the next day)
Anyway, Squirrel Nest. (Although I think that probably doesn't count. It does make infinite tokens, which I think counts as a combo, but the existing combo can also kill this turn, so Squirrel Nest isn't really a replacement.)
Weirding Shaman is similar.
Pili-Pala makes infinite mana with Earthraft and Mana Flare.
Well, thats annoying. A solution would be to add 3 generic cost reduction (exactly 3 because of Ancestral Statue or only something that does not care about colorless) and remove mana flare. E.g. add Thornscape Familiar, Ruby Medallion and Nightscape Familiar. Note that only red gets reduced here in essence, because white and blue isnt used in the combo.
Btw. Crovax only refutes if we assume that you got infinite life as well. Wierding shaman doesnt work because you are missing a goblin to sac the first time. Also, are we assuming that we got 1 of each basic land in our colors for earthcraft for refutations?
Technical question: if we use cost reducers do a refutation need to pay for difference in cost after reduction? E.g. would we have 2 mana + cost reducers to refute with or 5 in the concrete case?
Edit: missed the statue
Yeah, Crovax nets you 8 mana for 2 life. That's not quite enough to kill 3 opponents with Rocket Launcher assuming that everyone starts at 40 (although there are plenty of other mana outlets that could kill with 144 mana). And you're right about Weirding Shaman; too bad Endrek isn't a goblin.
As for Earthcraft, I think yes, we should assume you have one basic of each type in your colour identity, otherwise it seems outside the spirit of the game. Also, I've updated the original post with some thoughts on what constitutes a combo and a refutation. I welcome feedback.
And for visibility, here's the current combo we are working to refute:
Shard Phoenix with Earthcraft, Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, Vedalken Orrery, Withstand Death, Rocket Launcher, Centaur Omenreader, Urza's Incubator
I can't think of a single way to refute that (and in fact think it would still be safe with Centaur Omenreader or Urza's Incubator replacing the two familiars).
Let's give it a few hours to see if anyone else can find a refutation before we call it.
Actually it is Heroic Intervention, not Withstand Death. We need to protect sahr and the two familars.
Great minds think alike! I did manage to update my post slightly before this
Start things off with a drink and trigger Searing Meditation. Pay 6 life to the ogre for RR and use it to pay for Searing Meditation's trigger. When that resolves, and eight damage is applied to an opponent's face, you gain 8 life and trigger Searing Meditation. Each cycle puts you up 2 life and them down 8.
The problem here is that the Treasonous Ogre means that you have 10+ mana available for getting the combo started, so Exquisite Blood would count as a refutation.
How about: Ion Storm, Crystalline Crawler, Sunbond (enchanting the crawler),Furnace of Rath.
We're in three colours thanks to Tamanoa, so let's assume the crawler has three counters on it. Tap the Crawler to make that four counters. Remove two counters to activate Ion Storm (removing a third counter from the Crawler and doing four damage). Gain four life thanks to Tamanoa and put four counters on the Crawler. Repeat.
1 less card, 1 less mana
Sydri, Galvanic Genius can substitute for Tamanoa here, but that requires an additional three mana.
Why does a black card count as a refutation in a green-white-red combo?
With Tamanoa, it's a GWR combo. With Exquisite Blood it's a BWR combo (no green). Same number of colours, which is the rule we've been using. I'm open to the idea that we should be stricter about keeping the same colour identity, but it will make refuting a lot harder.
In the first case, Hunding is the winner this round. In the second case, Slave To Phage.
Give us a card, Hunding.
Cast Leveler, exiling your library.
Cast Hunting Pack (1 storm copy). Counter it with Deathgrip. Tap Junktroller to put Hunting Pack back on the bottom (i.e. top) of your library while the draw trigger from Multani's Presence is still on the stack. Draw Hunting Pack. Sacrifice a Beast to Phyrexian Altar, untapping Junktroller. Repeat.
The first iteration through will cost you 9 mana, bu you get one back from Phyrexian Altar, for a net cost of 8.
The second iteration, your storm count will be 2, so you'll have two token to sacrifice, for a net cost of 7.
The third iteration costs 6, and so on until it starts paying for itself and you can make infinite hasty tokens.
Total mana investment, a mere 36.