With Seismic Assault (but not lightning storm or land's edge), this does damage equal to the number of lands in your deck, so you're probably also going to want Dictate of the Twin GodsFeldon's Cane and Furnace of Rath as well (for the net result of doing 6 damage per land in your deck, which should be more than enough to finish off three players).
I actually suspect that Illusory Ambusher (and Skirge Familiar) could make a valid combo with Lightning Rift as well, that avoids the Fireball refutation, by requiring you to use Lightning Rift as part of the mana/draw engine.
Illusory Ambusher, Skirge Familiar, Lightning Rift, Archaeological Dig, Laboratory Maniac in play. Withstand Death, Fastbond, and Barren Moor in hand. Life from the Loam and any one land in graveyard. Cast Fastbond. Cast Withstand Death on Illusory Ambusher. Cycle Barren Moor. Pay the Lightning Rift trigger, targeting Ambusher. For your first draw, dredge Life from the Loam. Then draw two cards from your deck. Sac Archaeological Dig for G, discard a card to Skirge for B. Cast Life from the Loam. Play Archaeological Dig. Discard two cards for BB (enough to cycle Barren Moor and trigger Lightning Rift). You're back where you started except that you have dredged three and drawn two. You win via Lab Man.
With Seismic Assault (but not lightning storm or land's edge), this does damage equal to the number of lands in your deck, so you're probably also going to want Dictate of the Twin GodsFeldon's Cane and Furnace of Rath as well (for the net result of doing 6 damage per land in your deck, which should be more than enough to finish off three players).
Seemes good. You could change the first two to swans of bryn argoll unless you worry about some white card.
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I am wondering how the refutation stuff works exactly though (for the lightning rift combo in 256k cards last post). Do we need to be able to pay the cost of the card or only the difference using mana from the combo? I.e. would Seismic assault refute it - we can pay 1 or 2 mana (the ones used for cycling + lightning rift) for Seismic assault (which is more than the difference) in that case but not the full 3. (Also, the combo is missing a way to survive with that life loss from fastbond, but I guess if you start on enough life it should work)
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Yes, I think that Seismic Assault would count as a refutation for the Lightning Rift combo. You have as much mana available to you as the total mana investment you are replacing. In this case, since you still need Fastbond, Withstand Death, and the first cycling of the Barren Moor, the amount of mana you are have available is 3: 2 from casting Lightning Rift and 1 from the first trigger. If you didn't need, say, Withstand Death, your mana budget would go up.
Yes, I think that Seismic Assault would count as a refutation for the Lightning Rift combo. You have as much mana available to you as the total mana investment you are replacing. In this case, since you still need Fastbond, Withstand Death, and the first cycling of the Barren Moor, the amount of mana you are have available is 3: 2 from casting Lightning Rift and 1 from the first trigger. If you didn't need, say, Withstand Death, your mana budget would go up.
You actually do not need to cycle Barren Moor: In your version, you cycle Barren, paid for by a land drop which in essence means that you draw 3 cards from 2 lands in hand. Assault draws 4 cards for 2 lands in hand with that setup.
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Cast Shard Zombie during your upkeep, trigger chamber, make a 1/1 Myr, trigger tremors twice. Sacrifice the phoenix, killing the Myr token but not the scorpion; trigger the scorpion and tap lotus for RRR in response. Use the scorpion's trigger to untap the lotus, spend RRR to return Shard Zombie to your hand, and repeat until everyone's dead.
You don't even need the Spirit Mantle, Vedalken Orrery, or Genesis Chamber.
Cast Pentavus for free. Tap Gilded Lotus. Make a Pentavite and then sacrifice it, triggering Dross Scorpion and Impact Tremors. Untap Gilded Lotus. Repeat. You also get infinite mana to boot.
I am not seeing how? Skyfisher gets us to infinite mana much much easier (just needs Lotus + Engine, with Orrery optional to do it during your upkeep) but you need an effect that damages the dolls to insta-kill the opponent with this set-up. There are a billion and ones faster and easier ways to get infinite mana even in mono-red, and with infinite mana you're probably better off winning with a Walking Ballista or Comet Storm, BUT if your goal is to kill the table with cloned Stuffy Dolls...accept no substitutes for elfric's combo I think. I can't find any other creature that deals damage to ALL creatures and can recur itself for less mana.
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Cast and sacrifice the phoenix during your upkeep, assigning eight damage to Workhorse. Vigor prevents that damage (taking none itself) and adds 8 +1/+1 counters to Workhorse. Remove those counters to get eight mana, spend it on recurring and recasting the phoenix. Trigger tremors each cycle and repeat until everyone's dead.
Once again, cast and sacrifice the phoenix during your upkeep, making a copy of Sprouting Phytohydra, trigger echoes, spend the 1 you get from that and 7 more to recur and recast the phoenix. This time you'll be left with three Phytohydras after sacing Shard Phoenix and more mana from echoes. Eventually you start netting mana and go infinite, dealing infinite damage with Impact Tremors.
I am not seeing how? Skyfisher gets us to infinite mana much much easier (just needs Lotus + Engine, with Orrery optional to do it during your upkeep) but you need an effect that damages the dolls to insta-kill the opponent with this set-up.
Cast and sacrifice the phoenix during your upkeep, assigning eight damage to Workhorse. Vigor prevents that damage (taking none itself) and adds 8 +1/+1 counters to Workhorse. Remove those counters to get eight mana, spend it on recurring and recasting the phoenix. Trigger tremors each cycle and repeat until everyone's dead.
Once again, cast and sacrifice the phoenix during your upkeep, making a copy of Sprouting Phytohydra, trigger echoes, spend the 1 you get from that and 7 more to recur and recast the phoenix. This time you'll be left with three Phytohydras after sacing Shard Phoenix and more mana from echoes. Eventually you start netting mana and go infinite, dealing infinite damage with Impact Tremors.
I think it refutes both, as it requires less mana investment to go infinite in the second combo. Oh, and I'm not sure the second combo even works with Shard Phoenix, since the token Phytohydras aren't indestructible. (I was wrong)
I think you're right. Brutal two-for-one. Way to dash my hopes and dreams...
(This is fun!)
Edit: The second combo does work because the tokens don't need to be indestructible. With one indestructible phytohydra, mass damage gives you one token. Now with one indestructible phytohydra and one destructible one, mass damage makes two tokens and kills one token for a net gain.
add pithing needle naming stuffy doll
or add another unpat engine that doesnt untap the doll (actually i didnt remember the tap deal damage part of stuffy doll and wondred how kor skyfisher could refute the combo!?!?! i just had the damage from phoenix to doll in mind)
Derp, missed that too. I tried to rep for you, although in defense Kor Skyfisher is in another color so it's a questionable refutation imo.
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Derp, missed that too. I tried to rep for you, although in defense Kor Skyfisher is in another color so it's a questionable refutation imo.
The ruleset we're working with is that the refuting combo has to have the same number of colours (or fewer) as the suggested combo, but not the exact same colours, in order to make refuting not quite so difficult. The rules aren't set in stone though.
EDIT: Elfric, I think I've just spent way too much time looking at random magic cards. With the Paradox Engine/Stuffy Doll combo, I saw right away that any self-bouncing creature would do, and Kor Skyfisher was the first to come to mind. With the Workhorse combo, I saw that anything that could repeatedly do one one damage to workhorse for less than 8 mana would do, and I knew there were creatures with that ability, so I ran this search on magiccards.info: o:1 o:damage o:target o:creature t:"creature" -o:"{T}" -o:"sacrifice". There are actually a ton of other cards like Searing Touch that would also have worked.
Derp, missed that too. I tried to rep for you, although in defense Kor Skyfisher is in another color so it's a questionable refutation imo.
The ruleset we're working with is that the refuting combo has to have the same number of colours (or fewer) as the suggested combo, but not the exact same colours, in order to make refuting not quite so difficult. The rules aren't set in stone though.
EDIT: Elfric, I think I've just spent way too much time looking at random magic cards. With the Paradox Engine/Stuffy Doll combo, I saw right away that any self-bouncing creature would do, and Kor Skyfisher was the first to come to mind. With the Workhorse combo, I saw that anything that could repeatedly do one one damage to workhorse for less than 8 mana would do, so I ran this search. There are actually a ton of other cards like Searing Touch that would also have worked.
Fair point although since color identity matters I think stricter rules might be nice. You are right that elfric and I totally missed Stuffy Doll's tap effect, and thus any self-bouncing creature or spell with buyback will likely be a better and more consistent combo.
That'll be a hard thing for all Shard Phoenix combos to content with actually: if your loop involves Paradox Engine + mana rocks, it would run better with Searing Touch or Haze of Rage and that's all just in color.
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Commander - Currently Playing: RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G) RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B) WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
I think that Paradox Engine (as we previously saw with Intruder Alarm) is always going to be a risky inclusion in this thread, just because there are SO MANY things that combo with it. In a weird way, the less versatile your pieces are, the safer your combo in this game.
EDIT: I still hold out hope for Shard Phoenix though, because it's the only thing I can think of that both sacs for damage and recurs itself. It's think it's also the only creature that can return from graveyard to hand for RRR repeatedly in one turn (other than Skarrgan Firebird, which has its own limitations, but is a refuting card to look out for). I've got an idea in my head for a variant on the Rooftop Storm combo that can't be refuted by Pentavus or Sanitarium Skeleton, though it may well have other refutations. I'm not going to post it though because Shard Phoenix was my card.
First of all, I think Sparkcaster, pyrohemia, Hateflayer and magma phoenix makes it abit annoying, but we can work around that, mainly by not having green mana availble, not having a sac outlet and getting at most two mana from tapping a creature and none from damaging creatures
In upkeep: play intervention first. sac and return to hand and then play Phoenix cost 8 mana. Playing phoenix gives you 5 tokens (which is destroyed by it too), which you tap for 10 red mana.
?? the pheonix only deals damage to non-flying creatures. you ave no wincon.
BUT regardless - i couldnt keep track which combo to refute or which combo wasnt fleshed out yet. what combo was the last couning? the was alot of edits in this threat.
I think that every combo so far has been refuted, so Reaper's immediately above yours is the current contender. I think he's planning to win by creating infinite tokens.
I think in general we can accept a combo that makes infinite creatures (with more than zero power and without defender) as sufficient, even without a haste outlet. I'm willing to count that as "comboing out" as you've generated a win condition (even if a fragile one). (EDIT: Wait, no, that can't be it. Endrek sacs himself. I'm not sure how this combo is supposed to work either.)
1) Make Endrek indestructible.
2) Cast Shard Phoenix and make 5 Thrull tokens.
3) Tap each Thrull token to untap the Mountain tapping it for RR each time. Might as well make an extra RR with the phoenix for a total of 12 R.
4) Sac phoenix, killing the Thrulls but not Endrek. After paying 8 to recur and recast phoenix, you're up 4 mana.
5) Kill with Rocket Launcher.
Reaper9889 came up with the combo so it seems like they should get the credit for it.
Heroic Intervention works fine since it does not effect creatures not on the battlefield as it resolves. I mean, Chromatic Armor is the more powerful option, but Intervention gets the job done.
Rocket Launcher was just a joke. With infinite mana pretty much anything is a kill.
Reaper9889 came up with the combo so it seems like they should get the credit for it.
Heroic Intervention works fine since it does not effect creatures not on the battlefield as it resolves. I mean, Chromatic Armor is the more powerful option, but Intervention gets the job done.
Rocket Launcher was just a joke. With infinite mana pretty much anything is a kill.
I had misread the phoenix and thought it hit players as well, so I think Hunding can take the credit. That said, chromatic armor is in some sense less powerfull, since it would allow people to refute with blue or white cards.
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With Seismic Assault (but not lightning storm or land's edge), this does damage equal to the number of lands in your deck, so you're probably also going to want
Dictate of the Twin GodsFeldon's Cane and Furnace of Rath as well (for the net result of doing 6 damage per land in your deck, which should be more than enough to finish off three players).I actually suspect that Illusory Ambusher (and Skirge Familiar) could make a valid combo with Lightning Rift as well, that avoids the Fireball refutation, by requiring you to use Lightning Rift as part of the mana/draw engine.
Illusory Ambusher, Skirge Familiar, Lightning Rift, Archaeological Dig, Laboratory Maniac in play. Withstand Death, Fastbond, and Barren Moor in hand. Life from the Loam and any one land in graveyard. Cast Fastbond. Cast Withstand Death on Illusory Ambusher. Cycle Barren Moor. Pay the Lightning Rift trigger, targeting Ambusher. For your first draw, dredge Life from the Loam. Then draw two cards from your deck. Sac Archaeological Dig for G, discard a card to Skirge for B. Cast Life from the Loam. Play Archaeological Dig. Discard two cards for BB (enough to cycle Barren Moor and trigger Lightning Rift). You're back where you started except that you have dredged three and drawn two. You win via Lab Man.
Seemes good. You could change the first two to swans of bryn argoll unless you worry about some white card.
I am wondering how the refutation stuff works exactly though (for the lightning rift combo in 256k cards last post). Do we need to be able to pay the cost of the card or only the difference using mana from the combo? I.e. would Seismic assault refute it - we can pay 1 or 2 mana (the ones used for cycling + lightning rift) for Seismic assault (which is more than the difference) in that case but not the full 3. (Also, the combo is missing a way to survive with that life loss from fastbond, but I guess if you start on enough life it should work)
Anyway, today's card is: Shard Phoenix
You actually do not need to cycle Barren Moor: In your version, you cycle Barren, paid for by a land drop which in essence means that you draw 3 cards from 2 lands in hand. Assault draws 4 cards for 2 lands in hand with that setup.
Also works with Firewing Phoenix. I suggest replacing Gilded Lotus with Khalni Gem.
Shard Phoenix
You don't even need the Spirit Mantle, Vedalken Orrery, or Genesis Chamber.
Cast Pentavus for free. Tap Gilded Lotus. Make a Pentavite and then sacrifice it, triggering Dross Scorpion and Impact Tremors. Untap Gilded Lotus. Repeat. You also get infinite mana to boot.
Since Shard Phoenix's recover effect is on upkeep and it goes to hand it would be hard to ever really go infinite with it.
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Kor Skyfisher refutes.
I am not seeing how? Skyfisher gets us to infinite mana much much easier (just needs Lotus + Engine, with Orrery optional to do it during your upkeep) but you need an effect that damages the dolls to insta-kill the opponent with this set-up. There are a billion and ones faster and easier ways to get infinite mana even in mono-red, and with infinite mana you're probably better off winning with a Walking Ballista or Comet Storm, BUT if your goal is to kill the table with cloned Stuffy Dolls...accept no substitutes for elfric's combo I think. I can't find any other creature that deals damage to ALL creatures and can recur itself for less mana.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
How about this one:
Shard Phoenix
Or a little more compactly:
Shard Phoenix
The dolls have an effect that damages the dolls.
Flamekin Spitfire (This is fun!)
I think it refutes both, as it requires less mana investment to go infinite in the second combo.
Oh, and I'm not sure the second combo even works with Shard Phoenix, since the token Phytohydras aren't indestructible.(I was wrong)(This is fun!)
Edit: The second combo does work because the tokens don't need to be indestructible. With one indestructible phytohydra, mass damage gives you one token. Now with one indestructible phytohydra and one destructible one, mass damage makes two tokens and kills one token for a net gain.
Derp, missed that too. I tried to rep for you, although in defense Kor Skyfisher is in another color so it's a questionable refutation imo.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
The ruleset we're working with is that the refuting combo has to have the same number of colours (or fewer) as the suggested combo, but not the exact same colours, in order to make refuting not quite so difficult. The rules aren't set in stone though.
EDIT: Elfric, I think I've just spent way too much time looking at random magic cards. With the Paradox Engine/Stuffy Doll combo, I saw right away that any self-bouncing creature would do, and Kor Skyfisher was the first to come to mind. With the Workhorse combo, I saw that anything that could repeatedly do one one damage to workhorse for less than 8 mana would do, and I knew there were creatures with that ability, so I ran this search on magiccards.info: o:1 o:damage o:target o:creature t:"creature" -o:"{T}" -o:"sacrifice". There are actually a ton of other cards like Searing Touch that would also have worked.
Fair point although since color identity matters I think stricter rules might be nice. You are right that elfric and I totally missed Stuffy Doll's tap effect, and thus any self-bouncing creature or spell with buyback will likely be a better and more consistent combo.
That'll be a hard thing for all Shard Phoenix combos to content with actually: if your loop involves Paradox Engine + mana rocks, it would run better with Searing Touch or Haze of Rage and that's all just in color.
RCRDaretti: Superfriends Forever RCR
WGBDoran: Ent-mootWBG
GGGMultani: Group Bear HugGGG
GB(B/G)The Gitrog Monster: Dredgefall DurdleGB(B/G)
RGWGahiji, the Honored Group Hug MonsterRGW
UB(U/B)Yuriko, Ninja Trinket AggroUB(U/B)
WUBRGAtogatog: Assembling a OHKOWUBRG
EDIT: I still hold out hope for Shard Phoenix though, because it's the only thing I can think of that both sacs for damage and recurs itself. It's think it's also the only creature that can return from graveyard to hand for RRR repeatedly in one turn (other than Skarrgan Firebird, which has its own limitations, but is a refuting card to look out for). I've got an idea in my head for a variant on the Rooftop Storm combo that can't be refuted by Pentavus or Sanitarium Skeleton, though it may well have other refutations. I'm not going to post it though because Shard Phoenix was my card.
Since none else seems to have any idea, what about:
In hand: Heroic Intervention
In play:
earthcraft, platinum angel,
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, mana flare,
mountain, Shard Phoenix, Vedalken Orrery
In upkeep: play intervention first. sac and return to hand and then play Phoenix cost 8 mana. Playing phoenix gives you 5 tokens (which is destroyed by it too), which you tap for 10 red mana.
I think that every combo so far has been refuted, so Reaper's immediately above yours is the current contender. I think he's planning to win by creating infinite tokens.
I think in general we can accept a combo that makes infinite creatures (with more than zero power and without defender) as sufficient, even without a haste outlet. I'm willing to count that as "comboing out" as you've generated a win condition (even if a fragile one). (EDIT: Wait, no, that can't be it. Endrek sacs himself. I'm not sure how this combo is supposed to work either.)
1) Make Endrek indestructible.
2) Cast Shard Phoenix and make 5 Thrull tokens.
3) Tap each Thrull token to untap the Mountain tapping it for RR each time. Might as well make an extra RR with the phoenix for a total of 12 R.
4) Sac phoenix, killing the Thrulls but not Endrek. After paying 8 to recur and recast phoenix, you're up 4 mana.
5) Kill with Rocket Launcher.
I don't know what the Platinum Angel is for.
So the combo we have deduced from Reaper's post is:
earthcraft, Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder, mana flare, Vedalken Orrery, Withstand Death, Rocket Launcher
That looks good to me, and seems to avoid all the main refuting cards we've seen so far. I'm not sure who gets the credit for it though.
I had misread the phoenix and thought it hit players as well, so I think Hunding can take the credit. That said, chromatic armor is in some sense less powerfull, since it would allow people to refute with blue or white cards.