Sorry idk how to link cards and maybe this is the wrong place, but why is upheaval banned in commander? It seems to me to be a bad jokulhaups or cyclonic rift.
Because it invalidates everything about the game up until that point. It also often just leads to a win from the Upheaval player. If you have 4 players and everyone has 10 lands and 4 creatures (basic Board states and not even as good as the Upgeaval player can get), the Upheaval player can float all their mana, bounce everything, drop a land, and then put 5 into casting spells or their general. Now, when it gets to each other player's turn, they drop a land and pass.
The player who casts Upheaval has a huge advantage when the dust settles because it resets everything (lands being the biggest issue)
Because it invalidates everything about the game up until that point. It also often just leads to a win from the Upheaval player. If you have 4 players and everyone has 10 lands and 4 creatures (basic Board states and not even as good as the Upgeaval player can get), the Upheaval player can float all their mana, bounce everything, drop a land, and then put 5 into casting spells or their general. Now, when it gets to each other player's turn, they drop a land and pass.
The player who casts Upheaval has a huge advantage when the dust settles because it resets everything (lands being the biggest issue)
I think the fundamental underlying question whether it's actually any worse than Jokulhaups + General, but this is better discussed in the designated banlist thread.
Jokulhaups doesn't let you immediately replay your fast mana, which I believe is the determining factor between Upheaval being banned and the Jokulhaups variants legal.
Yeah seeing as how it is banned, this should be in the EDH Banned List thread. I think board clears are generally fine, however, I think mass LD should be banned, mainly because it just slows the game down if there is no definitive way to end the game from the person who nukes the lands.
Because it invalidates everything about the game up until that point. It also often just leads to a win from the Upheaval player. If you have 4 players and everyone has 10 lands and 4 creatures (basic Board states and not even as good as the Upgeaval player can get), the Upheaval player can float all their mana, bounce everything, drop a land, and then put 5 into casting spells or their general. Now, when it gets to each other player's turn, they drop a land and pass.
The player who casts Upheaval has a huge advantage when the dust settles because it resets everything (lands being the biggest issue)
I disagree about lands being the main issue. You can abuse Jokulhaups/Obliterate even worse by floating mana and casting Splendid Reclamation.
I mean, I guess they don't hit enchantments?
Then again, maybe that's more of a testament of why Splendid Reclamation should probably be banned.
When you think about it, in terms of advantage, it potentially nets you a comparable amount of lands to that of a bounced Primetime/Primordial, and requires less effot.
Normally since Jokulhaups/Obliterate hit artifacts, a MLD player needs to hold onto rocks/lands, or find some way to protect a beater like bounce/indestructibility to really abuse these cards. This means you are either severely limiting the amount of threats/answers in your hand by by filling it with rocks/lands in hope that you will be able to rebuild faster, or that you have already established some sort of powerful board state that has gone unanswered (Ulamog for example). Splendid Reclamation is crazy because you don't need to hold onto mana utility or have any sort of board state for it to be one-sided, you just need to play it with MLD. Then you have a hand full of awesome spells to unload the next turn.
We've essentially said World Purge is not too broken because it empties pools and shuffles all but seven cards, so it is a more equal reset.
So unless we want to ban every land destruction card — which I'm sure some people would be thrilled about, but lets be real — it seems like Reclamtion should probably go to maintain this line of thinking.
This is coming from someone who generally hates making the game easier, and could care less if it was never banned.
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Because it invalidates everything about the game up until that point. It also often just leads to a win from the Upheaval player. If you have 4 players and everyone has 10 lands and 4 creatures (basic Board states and not even as good as the Upgeaval player can get), the Upheaval player can float all their mana, bounce everything, drop a land, and then put 5 into casting spells or their general. Now, when it gets to each other player's turn, they drop a land and pass.
The player who casts Upheaval has a huge advantage when the dust settles because it resets everything (lands being the biggest issue)
I'd think Cyclonic Rift is equally bad, if not worse. While it doesn't bounce lands, the caster maintains his/her whole advantage, be it combo pieces or an army, with opponents nearly defenseless.
I'd think Cyclonic Rift is equally bad, if not worse. While it doesn't bounce lands, the caster maintains his/her whole advantage, be it combo pieces or an army, with opponents nearly defenseless.
Rift is nowhere near as bad.
1. In one of your scenarios a player has developed board state. If they have a board full of creatures and it has gone unanswered to this point, their opponents really only have themselves to blame. He's countering your wraths you say? Well then probably deserves to win for having the appropriate responses at the correct time. What makes rift so much worse than Plague Wind in this case?
2. In your second scenario the player is playing combo pieces. I'm going to assume that they are playing these the same turn as rift, as it makes no sense to not combo out their previous turn if the pieces have already been assembled. Combo is really irrelevant either way as Cyclonic Rift does not return lands, and the caster's opponents can respond to any pieces just as easily as they could have if rift had never been cast in the first place. Honestly, I can't see much reason to even cast rift if you already have your combo pieces in hand, outside of some corner case where there is a creature on the board that can disrupt you, and in many of those cases you could have just played Wrath of God.
3. How are you nearly defenseless? In what way would you have responded differently had the opponent not cast rift?
He is not preventing you from playing any removal or counter. I really don't see it.
Power discussions aside, the primary reason why Upheaval is banned while similar cards are not is because it has a real high "abuse floor", which is generally the crux of most banlist decisions. In other words, how easy is it for someone to smash a bunch of cards together into a deck and accidentally ruin a low-medium power level game by playing a card that's only really acceptable in higher power-level situations.
In order for J-haups to be an issue, you need to: Have a whole lot of extra mana, have a bunch of things to play from your hand, and your opponents can't have any indestructible or recurring threats. It's pretty safe to assume that any deck that can achieve this reliably has built around this strategy and is well aware of which playgroups would enjoy playing against such a strategy and which would kindly ask him to change decks.
In order for Upheaval to be an issue, you need to: have a bunch of mana, two or three mana rocks on board, and a threat or two in your hand or on board. The main difference here is these conditions are pretty typical conditions for just about every low-medium power level game of EDH. Take a deck from any power level, add in this one card, and suddenly it behaves in a way that is detrimental to the enjoyment of the table except at the highest power levels (where, let's be honest, a six-mana counter-or-lose sorcery is on par if not a bit weak).
In a social format like EDH, ensuring each game is enjoyable to everybody is way more important than balance (and they don't necessarily have to go hand-in-hand). If there's a single card that is broadly causing enjoyment issues across the board, it is a problem card according to the RC's banlist philosophy.
I'd think Cyclonic Rift is equally bad, if not worse. While it doesn't bounce lands, the caster maintains his/her whole advantage, be it combo pieces or an army, with opponents nearly defenseless.
Rift is nowhere near as bad.
1. In one of your scenarios a player has developed board state. If they have a board full of creatures and it has gone unanswered to this point, their opponents really only have themselves to blame. He's countering your wraths you say? Well then probably deserves to win for having the appropriate responses at the correct time. What makes rift so much worse than Plague Wind in this case?
2. In your second scenario the player is playing combo pieces. I'm going to assume that they are playing these the same turn as rift, as it makes no sense to not combo out their previous turn if the pieces have already been assembled. Combo is really irrelevant either way as Cyclonic Rift does not return lands, and the caster's opponents can respond to any pieces just as easily as they could have if rift had never been cast in the first place. Honestly, I can't see much reason to even cast rift if you already have your combo pieces in hand, outside of some corner case where there is a creature on the board that can disrupt you, and in many of those cases you could have just played Wrath of God.
3. How are you nearly defenseless? In what way would you have responded differently had the opponent not cast rift?
He is not preventing you from playing any removal or counter. I really don't see it.
You misunderstood me. Rift can obviously bounce more than just creatures, "army" was an example, not a definitive, so Wrath or Plague Wind won't always be as effective as Rift.
And I wasn't describing a situation where only ONE player had the advantage either, otherwise he'd obviously be winning, due to his own merit or his opponents' lack of (duh). There are times when stalemate happens, either all or most sides have equally strong board state, be it a Moat that stops creature from attacking or Leyline of Sanctity that entered the battlefield at the start of the game, Rift can break that stalemate without harming your own stuff.
Yes, opponents can still cast removal and counters in response to your advancement after the Rift, but the same could be said about players tapping mana in response to Upheaval, no? Upheaval bouncing permanents (at sorcery speed) doesn't prevent players from tapping lands for mana and ready their instants to destroy/counter what Upheaval players would cast after. There will always be a chance that your opponents will respond to mass removal like Upheaval and Rift, but that's like saying, "Tarmogoyf dies to Doom Blade," why should it stop me from using either bounce?
While an Upheaval strategy creates a dead board with or without success, doesn't make Rift less troublesome at instant speed and maintain an advantageous board state for its caster, which does render opponents nearly defenseless by comparison. Yes, I am well aware that they can still cast instants, which is why I said "nearly" in my original post. If I cast Rift at instant speed at the end of opponent's turn, I'd have a whole turn of mana ready to respond to their responses also.
Power discussions aside, the primary reason why Upheaval is banned while similar cards are not is because it has a real high "abuse floor", which is generally the crux of most banlist decisions. In other words, how easy is it for someone to smash a bunch of cards together into a deck and accidentally ruin a low-medium power level game by playing a card that's only really acceptable in higher power-level situations.
I'm not saying your wrong, but if being able to "Ruin the Game" by itself is a bannable offense then why aren't Decree of Annihilation, and Worldpurge banned?
I think the thing that differentiates Upheaval is your ability to cast spells that turn.
This allows you to slap down your land/rocks and play Wheel of Fortune
You are now in a huge position of advantage and your opponents may not have any mana source in hand.
Yes, opponents can still cast removal and counters in response to your advancement after the Rift, but the same could be said about players tapping mana in response to Upheaval, no?
Sorry, I meant respond to the state it creates. As soon as the Rift player ends his turn the next player can drop a wrath. The same is not true of Upheaval.
Rift is a very good card, but it doesn't end the game by itself. You need some sort of board state to win that turn, in which case something like Master Warcraft or Insurrection may just have easily won the game.
I don't see how instant speed is relevant either. So it's a fog that also potentially removes combo pieces? How is this a degenerate card?
Power discussions aside, the primary reason why Upheaval is banned while similar cards are not is because it has a real high "abuse floor", which is generally the crux of most banlist decisions. In other words, how easy is it for someone to smash a bunch of cards together into a deck and accidentally ruin a low-medium power level game by playing a card that's only really acceptable in higher power-level situations.
I'm not saying your wrong, but if being able to "Ruin the Game" by itself is a bannable offense then why aren't Decree of Annihilation, and Worldpurge banned?
The boring answer would be because Upheaval ended up causing more problems in practice than the other two cards.
As for why that is, I can only assume it was because people who play J-haup effects have to build around those cards specifically and need a narrow set of conditions to align in order for it to be an instant win, whereas any deck from any power level can run upheaval and have a decent chance of winning as long as a very broad and general set of circumstances are met.
Yes, opponents can still cast removal and counters in response to your advancement after the Rift, but the same could be said about players tapping mana in response to Upheaval, no?
Sorry, I meant respond to the state it creates. As soon as the Rift player ends his turn the next player can drop a wrath. The same is not true of Upheaval.
Rift is a very good card, but it doesn't end the game by itself. You need some sort of board state to win that turn, in which case something like Master Warcraft or Insurrection may just have easily won the game.
I don't see how instant speed is relevant either. So it's a fog that also potentially removes combo pieces? How is this a degenerate card?
Both Upheaval and Cyclonic Rift, alongside other massive removal spells, are there to create a situation where opponents would have difficulty recover, even lose the game outright. These spells are cast only when their respective players are certain that in doing so could bring immediate victory, i.e., they were cast with preparation ahead of time, such as Zurgo Helmsmasher players would prefer having Zurgo in play before they cast Obliterate. Neither Upheaval nor Rift ends the game on its own without preparation, even if Upheaval is more "ultimate" in its effect, Rift being an instant has the added effect in interrupt opponents' plan at their execution.
I confess Gilrad explained it a lot better than I do on this comparison: Maintaining social enjoyment is more important than balance. The reason why I felt Rift is degenerating is less about its raw power and more about its mental effect (caused by its power, of course). While both Rift and Upheaval could create a difficult situation, Rift has the added flavor of, "I play while you watch." A playmate of mine once commented, "I prefer Armageddon over Blood Moon or Back to Basics, because I'd rather lose outright than to have to watch my opponent plays solitaire." Upheaval has its risk, Rift however is entirely risk free, save the mana you spent, it being instant means that even if it's countered you still have full mana during your turn. Everyone spent time and effort to set up a good board state, and suddenly this person cast this risk-free spell and becomes the only person who keeps his effort.
I don't mean to be contrary but I just don't see it. I feel like you're exaggerating and that rift is a pretty fair card. I've played against it countless times and the thought that someone might find it degenerate never even crossed my mind. It is a pretty mild card compared to so many other things out there. I think most of the community probably agrees.
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Rift is what new players who want to run Upheaval without realize how broken it is think they are getting. You are resetting your opponents when you need to slow them down to stay alive, with the bonus of being able to clear their board to push through lethal. Next turn, they will be able to replay a lot of their stuff. I have come back from being on the receiving end of Rift, and had players come back on me after I fired a Rift off. Most of the time when Rift just wins the game, its a scenario where Sleep would just win the game for 4 less mana. There are occasionally times when bouncing a non creature permanent is needed to go for the alpha strike, and times when Rift is used to press an advantage that isn't going to automatically win, but that's relatively rare. The big thing is that, unless you wipe out a token army or win that turn, your opponents can start replaying everything the turn after rift.
Haups et al + Splendid Reclamation is a two card combo that sort of does what Upheaval does. You don't have an opportunity to get anything back except lands, but you get back your lands and can use them to start casting. This is OK, because its a two card combo that doesn't win the game on the spot in a format full of two card combos that win the game on the spot.
Upheaval, at its least powerful, undoes the board (that is, the Upheaval player emergency casts it when suddenly getting attacked for lethal, and thus can't abuse it). Yes, Worldpurge at instant speed for 2 fewer mana is the weakest application of the card. When you play it proactively, as other players explained, you do it on your main phase when you can float extra mana and replay mana rocks and possibly most of what you just bounced, then everyone else is left trying to rebuild their mana 1 land at a time (maybe they can also cast rocks on their turn, but without the floated mana you benefited from they are still going to be much further behind). This means its about the same effect as Haups + Splendid Reclamation. Reminder, that means Upheaval, with no setup other than playing a typical commander deck, gives you roughly the same effect as a strong two card combo. Upheaval is a one card combo. No need to draw the second piece, no special deckbuilding requirements. Yes, having mana rocks helps make it better, but if you are playing commander you are already playing mana rocks, and you don't even need them for Upheaval to win you the game, If you cast Upheaval when you have 10 mana from lands, then the land you replay is Ancient Tomb, you've have 6 mana to use to replay enough stuff to potentially have an insurmountable advantage over your opponents.
Upheaval isn't banned because the effect is too powerful. Upheaval is banned because the effect is too powerful when its on a single card that requires no setup and costs six mana. Its basically on the list for the same reason as Biorhythm, Sway of the Stars, Worldfire, and Coalition Victory. Some of those cards aren't even good, they are just stupid cards that invalidate everything that happened in the game and lead to cheap wins with no setup. They are effects that should be only available via combo, not from just casting one card.
Prime Time and Sylvan Prime are banned because they made games play the same. If it was in your deck, you would immediately go for it because of the strength of its effect, and if your opponents ran bribery or similar effects they would go for it, and any game Prime Time showed up in, which was most, became a game of "steal Prime Time".
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If you want to crush someone with Upheaval, play cube. It's like EDH but without ten minute turns and infinite whining.
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Yeah, as has been said, Upheaval gets in trouble because it lets you abuse the fact you've got priority and presumably, floated mana - something Worldpurge specifically "fixes" for a reason.
In some instances the hand flood is also abused because the Upheaval player can finish up their turn with a Reliquary Tower
For my money I'd rather be Upheaval'd than Armageddon'd and in general it wouldn't bother me to see it unbanned, but I can reason out why. As far as the sub-discussion going on here, Upheaval is strictly, clearly better than Rift.
I disagree that it's strictly better; I think they both serve different purposes. Cyclonic Rift serves a similar purpose to Plague Wind, while Upheval is more analogous to Jokulhaups. There's also the issue of instant vs. sorcery, and Cyclonic is more flexible in that you can bounce a single target instead of spending more mana to sweep. Even if the overload is usually what you want, occasionally there's just one permanent that's causing a problem, or you need something gone now and you don't have 7 mana up.
Those who aren't afraid of Upheaval in the format have never played against it. It's one of the best decks in my cube when it comes together. Saving your land drop for the turn and floating even 2 mana for a few mana dorks or your mana rocks is goodnight against almost every deck.
Upheaval, when it's played right, basically says: Restart the game, except you start on turn 3. That's busted in every format.
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nice necro bro...
anyway, rift keeps lands in play uphaeval bounces everything. please read the cards and think what game actions can players take following casting each one of them.
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Because it invalidates everything about the game up until that point. It also often just leads to a win from the Upheaval player. If you have 4 players and everyone has 10 lands and 4 creatures (basic Board states and not even as good as the Upgeaval player can get), the Upheaval player can float all their mana, bounce everything, drop a land, and then put 5 into casting spells or their general. Now, when it gets to each other player's turn, they drop a land and pass.
The player who casts Upheaval has a huge advantage when the dust settles because it resets everything (lands being the biggest issue)
I think the fundamental underlying question whether it's actually any worse than Jokulhaups + General, but this is better discussed in the designated banlist thread.
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I disagree about lands being the main issue. You can abuse Jokulhaups/Obliterate even worse by floating mana and casting Splendid Reclamation.
I mean, I guess they don't hit enchantments?
Then again, maybe that's more of a testament of why Splendid Reclamation should probably be banned.
When you think about it, in terms of advantage, it potentially nets you a comparable amount of lands to that of a bounced Primetime/Primordial, and requires less effot.
Normally since Jokulhaups/Obliterate hit artifacts, a MLD player needs to hold onto rocks/lands, or find some way to protect a beater like bounce/indestructibility to really abuse these cards. This means you are either severely limiting the amount of threats/answers in your hand by by filling it with rocks/lands in hope that you will be able to rebuild faster, or that you have already established some sort of powerful board state that has gone unanswered (Ulamog for example). Splendid Reclamation is crazy because you don't need to hold onto mana utility or have any sort of board state for it to be one-sided, you just need to play it with MLD. Then you have a hand full of awesome spells to unload the next turn.
We've essentially said World Purge is not too broken because it empties pools and shuffles all but seven cards, so it is a more equal reset.
So unless we want to ban every land destruction card — which I'm sure some people would be thrilled about, but lets be real — it seems like Reclamtion should probably go to maintain this line of thinking.
This is coming from someone who generally hates making the game easier, and could care less if it was never banned.
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I'd think Cyclonic Rift is equally bad, if not worse. While it doesn't bounce lands, the caster maintains his/her whole advantage, be it combo pieces or an army, with opponents nearly defenseless.
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Rift is nowhere near as bad.
1. In one of your scenarios a player has developed board state. If they have a board full of creatures and it has gone unanswered to this point, their opponents really only have themselves to blame. He's countering your wraths you say? Well then probably deserves to win for having the appropriate responses at the correct time. What makes rift so much worse than Plague Wind in this case?
2. In your second scenario the player is playing combo pieces. I'm going to assume that they are playing these the same turn as rift, as it makes no sense to not combo out their previous turn if the pieces have already been assembled. Combo is really irrelevant either way as Cyclonic Rift does not return lands, and the caster's opponents can respond to any pieces just as easily as they could have if rift had never been cast in the first place. Honestly, I can't see much reason to even cast rift if you already have your combo pieces in hand, outside of some corner case where there is a creature on the board that can disrupt you, and in many of those cases you could have just played Wrath of God.
3. How are you nearly defenseless? In what way would you have responded differently had the opponent not cast rift?
He is not preventing you from playing any removal or counter. I really don't see it.
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In order for J-haups to be an issue, you need to: Have a whole lot of extra mana, have a bunch of things to play from your hand, and your opponents can't have any indestructible or recurring threats. It's pretty safe to assume that any deck that can achieve this reliably has built around this strategy and is well aware of which playgroups would enjoy playing against such a strategy and which would kindly ask him to change decks.
In order for Upheaval to be an issue, you need to: have a bunch of mana, two or three mana rocks on board, and a threat or two in your hand or on board. The main difference here is these conditions are pretty typical conditions for just about every low-medium power level game of EDH. Take a deck from any power level, add in this one card, and suddenly it behaves in a way that is detrimental to the enjoyment of the table except at the highest power levels (where, let's be honest, a six-mana counter-or-lose sorcery is on par if not a bit weak).
In a social format like EDH, ensuring each game is enjoyable to everybody is way more important than balance (and they don't necessarily have to go hand-in-hand). If there's a single card that is broadly causing enjoyment issues across the board, it is a problem card according to the RC's banlist philosophy.
You misunderstood me. Rift can obviously bounce more than just creatures, "army" was an example, not a definitive, so Wrath or Plague Wind won't always be as effective as Rift.
And I wasn't describing a situation where only ONE player had the advantage either, otherwise he'd obviously be winning, due to his own merit or his opponents' lack of (duh). There are times when stalemate happens, either all or most sides have equally strong board state, be it a Moat that stops creature from attacking or Leyline of Sanctity that entered the battlefield at the start of the game, Rift can break that stalemate without harming your own stuff.
Yes, opponents can still cast removal and counters in response to your advancement after the Rift, but the same could be said about players tapping mana in response to Upheaval, no? Upheaval bouncing permanents (at sorcery speed) doesn't prevent players from tapping lands for mana and ready their instants to destroy/counter what Upheaval players would cast after. There will always be a chance that your opponents will respond to mass removal like Upheaval and Rift, but that's like saying, "Tarmogoyf dies to Doom Blade," why should it stop me from using either bounce?
While an Upheaval strategy creates a dead board with or without success, doesn't make Rift less troublesome at instant speed and maintain an advantageous board state for its caster, which does render opponents nearly defenseless by comparison. Yes, I am well aware that they can still cast instants, which is why I said "nearly" in my original post. If I cast Rift at instant speed at the end of opponent's turn, I'd have a whole turn of mana ready to respond to their responses also.
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I'm not saying your wrong, but if being able to "Ruin the Game" by itself is a bannable offense then why aren't Decree of Annihilation, and Worldpurge banned?
I think the thing that differentiates Upheaval is your ability to cast spells that turn.
This allows you to slap down your land/rocks and play Wheel of Fortune
You are now in a huge position of advantage and your opponents may not have any mana source in hand.
Again, this is why I'm surprised no one cares about Splendid Reclamation when it creates similar advantage with Obliterate/Jokulhaups.
Sorry, I meant respond to the state it creates. As soon as the Rift player ends his turn the next player can drop a wrath. The same is not true of Upheaval.
Rift is a very good card, but it doesn't end the game by itself. You need some sort of board state to win that turn, in which case something like Master Warcraft or Insurrection may just have easily won the game.
I don't see how instant speed is relevant either. So it's a fog that also potentially removes combo pieces? How is this a degenerate card?
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RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
The boring answer would be because Upheaval ended up causing more problems in practice than the other two cards.
As for why that is, I can only assume it was because people who play J-haup effects have to build around those cards specifically and need a narrow set of conditions to align in order for it to be an instant win, whereas any deck from any power level can run upheaval and have a decent chance of winning as long as a very broad and general set of circumstances are met.
Both Upheaval and Cyclonic Rift, alongside other massive removal spells, are there to create a situation where opponents would have difficulty recover, even lose the game outright. These spells are cast only when their respective players are certain that in doing so could bring immediate victory, i.e., they were cast with preparation ahead of time, such as Zurgo Helmsmasher players would prefer having Zurgo in play before they cast Obliterate. Neither Upheaval nor Rift ends the game on its own without preparation, even if Upheaval is more "ultimate" in its effect, Rift being an instant has the added effect in interrupt opponents' plan at their execution.
I confess Gilrad explained it a lot better than I do on this comparison: Maintaining social enjoyment is more important than balance. The reason why I felt Rift is degenerating is less about its raw power and more about its mental effect (caused by its power, of course). While both Rift and Upheaval could create a difficult situation, Rift has the added flavor of, "I play while you watch." A playmate of mine once commented, "I prefer Armageddon over Blood Moon or Back to Basics, because I'd rather lose outright than to have to watch my opponent plays solitaire." Upheaval has its risk, Rift however is entirely risk free, save the mana you spent, it being instant means that even if it's countered you still have full mana during your turn. Everyone spent time and effort to set up a good board state, and suddenly this person cast this risk-free spell and becomes the only person who keeps his effort.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
Haups et al + Splendid Reclamation is a two card combo that sort of does what Upheaval does. You don't have an opportunity to get anything back except lands, but you get back your lands and can use them to start casting. This is OK, because its a two card combo that doesn't win the game on the spot in a format full of two card combos that win the game on the spot.
Upheaval, at its least powerful, undoes the board (that is, the Upheaval player emergency casts it when suddenly getting attacked for lethal, and thus can't abuse it). Yes, Worldpurge at instant speed for 2 fewer mana is the weakest application of the card. When you play it proactively, as other players explained, you do it on your main phase when you can float extra mana and replay mana rocks and possibly most of what you just bounced, then everyone else is left trying to rebuild their mana 1 land at a time (maybe they can also cast rocks on their turn, but without the floated mana you benefited from they are still going to be much further behind). This means its about the same effect as Haups + Splendid Reclamation. Reminder, that means Upheaval, with no setup other than playing a typical commander deck, gives you roughly the same effect as a strong two card combo. Upheaval is a one card combo. No need to draw the second piece, no special deckbuilding requirements. Yes, having mana rocks helps make it better, but if you are playing commander you are already playing mana rocks, and you don't even need them for Upheaval to win you the game, If you cast Upheaval when you have 10 mana from lands, then the land you replay is Ancient Tomb, you've have 6 mana to use to replay enough stuff to potentially have an insurmountable advantage over your opponents.
Upheaval isn't banned because the effect is too powerful. Upheaval is banned because the effect is too powerful when its on a single card that requires no setup and costs six mana. Its basically on the list for the same reason as Biorhythm, Sway of the Stars, Worldfire, and Coalition Victory. Some of those cards aren't even good, they are just stupid cards that invalidate everything that happened in the game and lead to cheap wins with no setup. They are effects that should be only available via combo, not from just casting one card.
Prime Time and Sylvan Prime are banned because they made games play the same. If it was in your deck, you would immediately go for it because of the strength of its effect, and if your opponents ran bribery or similar effects they would go for it, and any game Prime Time showed up in, which was most, became a game of "steal Prime Time".
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
In some instances the hand flood is also abused because the Upheaval player can finish up their turn with a Reliquary Tower
For my money I'd rather be Upheaval'd than Armageddon'd and in general it wouldn't bother me to see it unbanned, but I can reason out why. As far as the sub-discussion going on here, Upheaval is strictly, clearly better than Rift.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Upheaval, when it's played right, basically says: Restart the game, except you start on turn 3. That's busted in every format.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
anyway, rift keeps lands in play uphaeval bounces everything. please read the cards and think what game actions can players take following casting each one of them.