Is something within the rules of the game degenerate though?
I wouldn't sit down to a game of chess and complain about the queen being degenerate.
That's because both players get a queen. You would rightfully feel cheated if you were running your knight tribal chess board for fun (1 king, 7 knights, 8 pawns) when some jerk sat down with an optimized 5-queen-2-knight setup that's been winning all the tournaments lately.
But everyone has access to these cards and can run them in their decks, or similarly, answers to stop them.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
Is something within the rules of the game degenerate though?
I wouldn't sit down to a game of chess and complain about the queen being degenerate.
The chess argument does not apply because in chess both players start with the exact same pieces unllike Magic, where each brings his own deck.
Degenerate means something like "below the accepted norm" and as such is subjective by default. If you do something the majority of the group you play with feels is degenerate, then yes what you do is degenerate even if it is within the rules of the game. If the majority feels it is acceptable, then it is not degerenate. Note that, because norms differ from group to group, so does degeneracy. What is considered acceptable in one group can be degenerate in another. That's the hard thing about it: you don't decide if your deck is degenerate, the people you play with do.
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Is something within the rules of the game degenerate though?
I wouldn't sit down to a game of chess and complain about the queen being degenerate.
The chess argument does not apply because in chess both players start with the exact same pieces unlike Magic, where each brings his own deck.
Except you are able to play any card you want. Nothing is preventing you from using those cards as well.
I think its a perfect example. Magic has different archetypes but in the end it is a game with rules, and everyone is allowed to use the same pieces.
When playing with people outside your playgroup you should expect to run into anything that is not on the banlist. Therefor nothing can be unexpected and nothing can be degenerate. If you have an established playgroup that dislikes a certain strategy I supposed it could be degenerate.
At either rate, the animosity some people show people outside their groups for using different strategies seems completely unfounded, and it would be nice if we could all be a little more graceful in these situations.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
Derevi has stax. And so on. A lot of decks can be degenerate (which has its place, can be fun in certain metas) unfortently for Derevi it lends itself to stax. Usually amoung the lest liked play style.
You are missing something. The tap/untap clause on Derevi makes you effectively immune to Stax Lock components of the deck. It breaks the symmetry of those cards and even allows you to tap down opponents new resources as they become available. With only a few small evasive creatures and a lock piece you can play your deck unimpeded by your stax cards and prevent your opponents from breaking free. It is very oppressive, even though I personally have never played against such a deck.
Also he is immune to commander tax, which is just that much more annoying. (and has "flash")
I wouldn't say she's busted, though; once you start house-banning control decks, combo takes over.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Is something within the rules of the game degenerate though?
I wouldn't sit down to a game of chess and complain about the queen being degenerate.
The chess argument does not apply because in chess both players start with the exact same pieces unlike Magic, where each brings his own deck.
Except you are able to play any card you want. Nothing is preventing you from using those cards as well.
I think its a perfect example. Magic has different archetypes but in the end it is a game with rules, and everyone is allowed to use the same pieces.
Except you assume everyone has equal acces to cards and equal deckbuilding skills which is simply not true. In chess, everyone has the same pieces in the exact same quantity.
When playing with people outside your playgroup you should expect to run into anything that is not on the banlist. Therefor nothing can be unexpected and nothing can be degenerate.
I agree that you should expect nothing and the banlist is indeed the only universal norm one can fall back on. However, what you are playing can still be degenerate if the people you end up with consider it so.
At either rate, the animosity some people show people outside their groups for using different strategies seems completely unfounded, and it would be nice if we could all be a little more graceful in these situations.
Amen brother, amen
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The secret to enjoyable Commander games is not winning first, but losing last.
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Personally I hate the Stax Derevi.. not because it is powerful, but because it has become so well known that it is hard to play anything remotely funny like Bird tribal with her because everyone immediately makes Derevi a kill on site.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Except you are able to play any card you want. Nothing is preventing you from using those cards as well.
Nothing except the rules of the format that in fact explicitly forbid you from putting whatever you want to in your deck. The only way that argument even approaches something that looks a bit like validity (in a dim light, if you squint) is if you start with the assumption that everyone is playing decks with identical color restrictions, which sounds miserable.
Also just with the activated ability: Not only does it allow her to ignore commander tax, not only does it give Derevi effectively flash, but it also makes it so Derevi sneak past a lot of counter spells or cards that outright ban you (Meddling Mage) from casting Derevi. Derevi in general might as well have a mana cost of infinity because you are rarely going to be hard casting her anyway. I think the only things that even deal with that activated ability are stuff Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle, assuming the Derevi player doesn't have artifact removal on hand. The sheer value of that activated ability alone is such a valuable thing that I feel like I am taking crazy pills with how absurdly good it actually is in Commander.
Fun thought experiment (at least for me): Take Derevi's activated ability and move it onto another commander you could think of. The cost of that activated ability is equal to the commander's normal mana cost. Example: "R: Put Norin onto the battlefield from the command zone."
And as a follow up question to the thought experiment: Do you believe that is balanced on that commander?
Except you are able to play any card you want. Nothing is preventing you from using those cards as well.
Nothing except the rules of the format that in fact explicitly forbid you from putting whatever you want to in your deck. The only way that argument even approaches something that looks a bit like validity (in a dim light, if you squint) is if you start with the assumption that everyone is playing decks with identical color restrictions, which sounds miserable.
This is not what I meant at all.
My comment was not that any magic card could be played in any deck, but that everyone has the the option to use those cards.
The general people are using is irrelevant. They chose to use that general. They could have easily picked another general.
2 players can both play Derevei. Players can both play stax. If you choose to play a general that precludes you from using certain cards that is your decision. No one is forcing you to play the general that you are playing.
The solution to stax and mld is to not over extend, play rocks or ramp, and pack your deck with an adequate amount removal/counterspells. These options are available in every color; it's up to you to choose whether you want to play them or not. If you don't want to build your deck to answer a certain threat or play those players that is also up to you. But mld is not handicapping you, your deck building decisions are. No one is forcing anyone to play against stax. If your group doesn't like it then say so up front. The hostility I see from grown men when confronted with a magic card they don't like is ridiculous.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
Also just with the activated ability: Not only does it allow her to ignore commander tax, not only does it give Derevi effectively flash, but it also makes it so Derevi sneak past a lot of counter spells or cards that outright ban you (Meddling Mage) from casting Derevi. Derevi in general might as well have a mana cost of infinity because you are rarely going to be hard casting her anyway. I think the only things that even deal with that activated ability are stuff Phyrexian Revoker and Pithing Needle, assuming the Derevi player doesn't have artifact removal on hand. The sheer value of that activated ability alone is such a valuable thing that I feel like I am taking crazy pills with how absurdly good it actually is in Commander.
Fun thought experiment (at least for me): Take Derevi's activated ability and move it onto another commander you could think of. The cost of that activated ability is equal to the commander's normal mana cost. Example: "R: Put Norin onto the battlefield from the command zone."
And as a follow up question to the thought experiment: Do you believe that is balanced on that commander?
I totally agree. The four mana pseudo-invincibility is probably the most broken part. The tap effect on a flying 2/3 isn't shabby, but give her wolverine-level resilience and she's banned/hated out from a format.
But everyone has access to these cards and can run them in their decks, or similarly, answers to stop them.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
The chess argument does not apply because in chess both players start with the exact same pieces unllike Magic, where each brings his own deck.
Degenerate means something like "below the accepted norm" and as such is subjective by default. If you do something the majority of the group you play with feels is degenerate, then yes what you do is degenerate even if it is within the rules of the game. If the majority feels it is acceptable, then it is not degerenate. Note that, because norms differ from group to group, so does degeneracy. What is considered acceptable in one group can be degenerate in another. That's the hard thing about it: you don't decide if your deck is degenerate, the people you play with do.
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
Except you are able to play any card you want. Nothing is preventing you from using those cards as well.
I think its a perfect example. Magic has different archetypes but in the end it is a game with rules, and everyone is allowed to use the same pieces.
When playing with people outside your playgroup you should expect to run into anything that is not on the banlist. Therefor nothing can be unexpected and nothing can be degenerate. If you have an established playgroup that dislikes a certain strategy I supposed it could be degenerate.
At either rate, the animosity some people show people outside their groups for using different strategies seems completely unfounded, and it would be nice if we could all be a little more graceful in these situations.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
Leovold, Emissary of Trest has Windfall
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher has Food Chain
Kaalia of the Vast has Master of Cruelties
Derevi has stax. And so on. A lot of decks can be degenerate (which has its place, can be fun in certain metas) unfortently for Derevi it lends itself to stax. Usually amoung the lest liked play style.
"She". But yeah, Winter Orb and friends, Meekstone, Tangle Wire, Kill Switch, Defense Grid, Trinisphere, and she comes in and says "Stax for thee, but not for me."
I wouldn't say she's busted, though; once you start house-banning control decks, combo takes over.
On phasing:
Except you assume everyone has equal acces to cards and equal deckbuilding skills which is simply not true. In chess, everyone has the same pieces in the exact same quantity.
I agree that you should expect nothing and the banlist is indeed the only universal norm one can fall back on. However, what you are playing can still be degenerate if the people you end up with consider it so.
Amen brother, amen
If my post has no tags, then i posted from my phone.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Fun thought experiment (at least for me): Take Derevi's activated ability and move it onto another commander you could think of. The cost of that activated ability is equal to the commander's normal mana cost.
Example: "R: Put Norin onto the battlefield from the command zone."
And as a follow up question to the thought experiment: Do you believe that is balanced on that commander?
This is not what I meant at all.
My comment was not that any magic card could be played in any deck, but that everyone has the the option to use those cards.
The general people are using is irrelevant. They chose to use that general. They could have easily picked another general.
2 players can both play Derevei. Players can both play stax. If you choose to play a general that precludes you from using certain cards that is your decision. No one is forcing you to play the general that you are playing.
The solution to stax and mld is to not over extend, play rocks or ramp, and pack your deck with an adequate amount removal/counterspells. These options are available in every color; it's up to you to choose whether you want to play them or not. If you don't want to build your deck to answer a certain threat or play those players that is also up to you. But mld is not handicapping you, your deck building decisions are. No one is forcing anyone to play against stax. If your group doesn't like it then say so up front. The hostility I see from grown men when confronted with a magic card they don't like is ridiculous.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
I totally agree. The four mana pseudo-invincibility is probably the most broken part. The tap effect on a flying 2/3 isn't shabby, but give her wolverine-level resilience and she's banned/hated out from a format.