Then your problem isn't with mld, its with bad players. Its the same idea with aggro. Some people hate it because everyone they know that plays aggro does nothing but overextend and single in on one person, or doesn't know how to diversify their threats or pack answers, so they end up knocking one guy out then folding to Wrath. Aggro, of course, doesn't have to play like that, but that's how bad players play it (although, sometimes its right to focus on one person if they are the person who can stop you, but that's a separate discussion). Its not different than the guy who runs 27counters.dek that doesn't know when and what he should counter, so he counters your fatty and lets the other guy's combo piece resolve. Its not different from the guy that Persecutes or Mind Twists the wrong guy at the table.
Yeh, that's why I said I was fine with it in theory. That said, my playgroup also includes those kind of aggro and control players :(.
Speaking of, I'm not sure I understand the logic of pre-emptively using MLD against ramp decks. I mean even if they blew out a high amount of lands early but it's still early enough in the game where a MLD activation would hinder them, wouldn't it just slow down the game to a crawl because I wrecked -everyone's- lands and now we all have to recovery? Seems like a pretty bad play in general unless you're either far ahead or closing out the game.
That's because MLD doesn't counter ramp with the exception of a few cards and people that push that agenda have no clue what they are talking about. You counter ramp with lockdown elements. The thing is, in stax decks lockdown and MLD are used together, so it confuses people. The MLD that hurts ramp is along the lines of Natural Balance, Keldon Firebombers, and Pox. All of those take out more of the ramp player's lands and still leave you with some resources to do things in a lower-curve deck. On the other side of things, ramp decks love playing cards like Wildfire, Tectonic Break, and Death Cloud because they have more lands to start with and can recover those lands as well.
Other than that, what stops ramp is something like Winter Orb or Storm Cauldron. All of a sudden your Explosive Vegetation isn't very helpful if you can't untap those extra lands (along with the lands you spent on the spell) or you have to return 4 lands to cast it.
MLD is used to seal a win. A large board with a Ghostway + Jokulhaups or a Cataclysm + Titania, Protector of Argoth will win you the game. The key to this is playing around disruption. You need to play it in the same way you'd play a combo; you don't just rush it out there and hope you push through the disruption. But, also just like combo, MLD is frowned upon so people tend to be bad at playing it effectively. It's kind of a vicious cycle.
Realistically, if your group banned MLD and combo what you are saying is ramp and gravepact decks are all you want to see, since your W/R aggro cannot compete with that Prime Speaker Zegana/Maelstrom Wanderer/Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck once they get their expensive threats out there.
I think people have seen a ramp player blow their hand out into ramp and have another player tap 4 for geddon the next turn, leaving the ramp player with too few lands in deck to recover as fast as everyone else and no board presence. They mistakenly think that's what mld is there for, when the guy who pulled the play off was running mld as a game winning play and saw the fact that it was an opportunity to use it to screw the ramp player over. Its rare, but it happens, but you should never include it just for that purpose, its the sort of thing that will come up once in a while that you can take advantage of.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I run a couple MLD spells in my Mogis deck. Obliterate and (cycling) Decree of Annihilation
I really only cast them when I think that I am going to win next turn or the turn after. It's enchantment tribal, so hopefully all my stuff like Baneful Omen, Price of Knowledge and Mogis himself will kill the opponents before they can recover. No one has really complained, it's just how the deck puts away a game. Very similar to someone landing a Craterhoof Behemoth or ultimating their Elspeth, Sun's Champion, The game is probably going to end and that's fine, just shuffle up and start a new game.
That's some real deep analysis that adds to the conversation.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That's some real deep analysis that adds to the conversation.
There's not really any more that needs to be added. The mechanic isn't fun to play and makes games really boring. I don't know how the rest of you managed so many words on such a simple topic.
The mechanic isn't fun to play and makes games really boring. I don't know how the rest of you managed so many words on such a simple topic.
Possibly it might maybe be because not all of us agree, perhaps. Maybe.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
Its isn't fun. Blowing up lands so people can't play? Yeah, pretty much the epitome of unfun and boring.
I mean, losing isn't particularly fun. Getting your resources attacked isn't either. But my meta is comprised of adults who like to play strong cards, and when we all get our hands dumped from the Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck or our lands nuked from the Mina and Denn deck, it's just part of it. You laugh, you re-align politically, and you go for it. We have lots of fun ganging up when someone paints a huge target on their head, even if all our lands have been nuked. It's certainly more fun than watching someone combo out for several minutes, which is okay in most metas people talk about here.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
My only rule is "no spite-MLD". Keep in mind what I mean by spite-MLD.
If I'm about to finish you off with Rith, the Awakener and Purphoros, God of the Forge, casting Armageddon is not spite-MLD. You're just making sure I don't have 2G to deliver the final blow. (As an aside, for such a homely god, Purphoros seems to have a lot of lady friends. Rith, Saskia...Sadly, not the RG love goddess we were hoping for.)
But if you're at 6 life (or 18 commander damage) and you have nothing with flying or reach untapped, casting Armageddon is spite-MLD.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
MLD needs to exist because I am so sick and tired of ramp decks dominating local metas just because their natural foil is considered taboo.
"But Wyvern, MLD isn't the solution because of how feel-bad it is for the non-ramp players caught in the crossfire."
Please stop. MLD IS a solution; we're just so afraid of offending people that we lie to ourselves and pretend that Keldon Firebombers and Natural Balance are the only ways to halt the ramp menace. I can't remember the last time I 'Geddoned after someone else's Boundless Realms and heard anyone but the ramp player complain.
Personal anecdote: My most common use of MLD is in Karona, False God Enchantress - cycling Decree of Annihilation after I've gone Epic with Enduring Ideal is typically enough to shuffle up for another game. Similar situation to Schutzwald's Mogis deck up there.
The least fun game of EDH: Competitive UGx player ramps hard, clearly heading toward degenerate board state or combo. New/non-competitive players sit by in frustration or just don't notice what's going on. You (low to mid-level competitive/thematic focused deck) sit there deciding whether to focus on reigning in UGx or try to get your own game plan going. If you don't reign them in it's going to be an un-fun, short game for the newbies and yourself. If you do, you're expending disproportionate effort at the expense of your own game plan but hopefully will give the newbies a better game. MLD is just one method of trying to even the tables in that scenario, see also discard, counterspells, etc. I think it's context dependent and depends on how the rest of the table will take it, but I always have the least sympathy for the UGx player (even if they are nice) because they should know better that if they are leaning heavily on the most powerful strategy in EDH they they deserve to be targeted.
MLD needs to exist because I am so sick and tired of ramp decks dominating local metas just because their natural foil is considered taboo.
"But Wyvern, MLD isn't the solution because of how feel-bad it is for the non-ramp players caught in the crossfire."
Please stop. MLD IS a solution; we're just so afraid of offending people that we lie to ourselves and pretend that Keldon Firebombers and Natural Balance are the only ways to halt the ramp menace. I can't remember the last time I 'Geddoned after someone else's Boundless Realms and heard anyone but the ramp player complain.
Personal anecdote: My most common use of MLD is in Karona, False God Enchantress - cycling Decree of Annihilation after I've gone Epic with Enduring Ideal is typically enough to shuffle up for another game. Similar situation to Schutzwald's Mogis deck up there.
In certain situations it can beat ramp, but as others have pointed out it isn't as simple as firing off geddon. After Boundless Realms? Yeah, they've probably got 60-75% of their land out at that point, you'll neuter them. Did they just dump their hand into ramp spells and are planning on drawing into threats and casting their commander? Then yes, you'll set them back quite a bit. But if the player just hit 3 ramp spells early, and you geddon, then they will recover faster than anyone else because they probably still have enough ramp and lands coming. The timing is difficult for a lot of players to judge, and so most people's experience is with players who use MLD incorrectly (mostly because, like most strategies, you only get good at it with practice, and since MLD played poorly is so unpopular many people take it out after a few bad games).
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
MLD needs to exist because I am so sick and tired of ramp decks dominating local metas just because their natural foil is considered taboo.
"But Wyvern, MLD isn't the solution because of how feel-bad it is for the non-ramp players caught in the crossfire."
Please stop. MLD IS a solution; we're just so afraid of offending people that we lie to ourselves and pretend that Keldon Firebombers and Natural Balance are the only ways to halt the ramp menace. I can't remember the last time I 'Geddoned after someone else's Boundless Realms and heard anyone but the ramp player complain.
Personal anecdote: My most common use of MLD is in Karona, False God Enchantress - cycling Decree of Annihilation after I've gone Epic with Enduring Ideal is typically enough to shuffle up for another game. Similar situation to Schutzwald's Mogis deck up there.
In certain situations it can beat ramp, but as others have pointed out it isn't as simple as firing off geddon. After Boundless Realms? Yeah, they've probably got 60-75% of their land out at that point, you'll neuter them. Did they just dump their hand into ramp spells and are planning on drawing into threats and casting their commander? Then yes, you'll set them back quite a bit. But if the player just hit 3 ramp spells early, and you geddon, then they will recover faster than anyone else because they probably still have enough ramp and lands coming. The timing is difficult for a lot of players to judge, and so most people's experience is with players who use MLD incorrectly (mostly because, like most strategies, you only get good at it with practice, and since MLD played poorly is so unpopular many people take it out after a few bad games).
Yes, you're right. I shouldn't have implied that beating ramp is as easy as casting Armageddon - you've gotta be smart about it. And that's the most challenging part.
Having played more on cockatrice, I REALLY don't like the idea of outright banning things on the basis of "fun" because it is WAY to nebulous.
Had one game where someone got mad because I was using UB Skeleton Ship with infect, and they were saying infect was not fun... while they say with an Enchantress Pillowfort that wins by Forced Fruition, Arcane Laboratory, and Decree of Silence...
MLD is a tool. When used smartly, it works.
The worst part? MLD is the only thing Boros has going for it... My Anya Boros Control deck thrives off of MLD since I lack CA and tradition control methods (counters and such). So use lots of mana rocks, keep blowing lands/Wraths, won his Planeswalkers and Assemble the Legion/Anya.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
You can disagree on what MLD accomplishes in terms of strategy, but he's absolutely right in terms of what it accomplishes socially.
Its isn't fun. Blowing up lands so people can't play? Yeah, pretty much the epitome of unfun and boring.
I disagree. I enjoy playing against these decks and run answers to stop them.
Not every deck i play can compete with them and I don't play great against a highly tuned stax deck, but I enjoy the competition.
I will never understand why people are so adverse to something that is part of the game. Its like telling someone they shouldn't build a hotel on their property in monopoly or getting upset when they pull a bottom piece in jenga. Normally if people dislike a game they just don't play it, but because we have the luxury of different archetypes in magic we've developed this weird rift between people concerning desired competitiveness. We all like to play different ways, but why complain about a strategy that has been part of magic before the format was even conceived.
Why can't we be graceful about it and move on when confronted with decks that are more competitive than ours, or find a format/game that we find more enjoyable.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
You can disagree on what MLD accomplishes in terms of strategy, but he's absolutely right in terms of what it accomplishes socially.
Its isn't fun. Blowing up lands so people can't play? Yeah, pretty much the epitome of unfun and boring.
I disagree. I enjoy playing against these decks and run answers to stop them.
Not every deck i play can compete with them and I don't play great against a highly tuned stax deck, but I enjoy the competition.
I will never understand why people are so adverse to something that is part of the game. Its like telling someone they shouldn't build a hotel on their property in monopoly or getting upset when they pull a bottom piece in jenga. Normally if people dislike a game they just don't play it, but because we have the luxury of different archetypes in magic we've developed this weird rift between people concerning desired competitiveness. We all like to play different ways, but why complain about a strategy that has been part of magic before the format was even conceived.
Why can't we be graceful about it and move on when confronted with decks that are more competitive than ours, or find a format/game that we find more enjoyable.
This, right here. While not on par with where the OP was going to begin with, I'm still going to address it.
I play EDH because I do not want to see the same crap that I see in Legacy/Modern/Vintage/Standard. I'm not here to win, I'm here to enjoy the game. So, what, you're going to tell me games are enjoyable when you can't play anything because your lands are blown up?
Also, no, its not the only tool for RW decks. You(and others) are making it sound like that's the only way you'll win, except its more akin to the only way you won't lose. If you cast Armageddon and it gets countered, did you lose? Sometimes that will be the case, but that outcome is still possible if it resolves, too.
Suggesting people don't play a certain game because of some tactic they don't agree with is puzzling. Its not the game I have a problem with, it's those employing said tactic. Its compounded by tactics that are proven "fun-sucks" in supposed casual settings, like MLD.
Again, you can argue what MLD does strategically, but its pretty clear that MLD is a social Taboo.
It's like vaping. No law against it. There are also people that don't vape who don't care that you vape. However, an overwhelming populous prefer that you don't, and probably think you're a douche if you do.
You can disagree on what MLD accomplishes in terms of strategy, but he's absolutely right in terms of what it accomplishes socially.
Its isn't fun. Blowing up lands so people can't play? Yeah, pretty much the epitome of unfun and boring.
I disagree. I enjoy playing against these decks and run answers to stop them.
Not every deck i play can compete with them and I don't play great against a highly tuned stax deck, but I enjoy the competition.
I will never understand why people are so adverse to something that is part of the game. Its like telling someone they shouldn't build a hotel on their property in monopoly or getting upset when they pull a bottom piece in jenga. Normally if people dislike a game they just don't play it, but because we have the luxury of different archetypes in magic we've developed this weird rift between people concerning desired competitiveness. We all like to play different ways, but why complain about a strategy that has been part of magic before the format was even conceived.
Why can't we be graceful about it and move on when confronted with decks that are more competitive than ours, or find a format/game that we find more enjoyable.
This, right here. While not on par with where the OP was going to begin with, I'm still going to address it.
I play EDH because I do not want to see the same crap that I see in Legacy/Modern/Vintage/Standard. I'm not here to win, I'm here to enjoy the game. So, what, you're going to tell me games are enjoyable when you can't play anything because your lands are blown up?
Also, no, its not the only tool for RW decks. You(and others) are making it sound like that's the only way you'll win, except its more akin to the only way you won't lose. If you cast Armageddon and it gets countered, did you lose? Sometimes that will be the case, but that outcome is still possible if it resolves, too.
Suggesting people don't play a certain game because of some tactic they don't agree with is puzzling. Its not the game I have a problem with, it's those employing said tactic. Its compounded by tactics that are proven "fun-sucks" in supposed casual settings, like MLD.
Again, you can argue what MLD does strategically, but its pretty clear that MLD is a social Taboo.
It's like vaping. No law against it. There are also people that don't vape who don't care that you vape. However, an overwhelming populous prefer that you don't, and probably think you're a douche if you do.
RW CONTROL IS dependent on things like MLD. RW CONTROL lacks other means to maintain CA over its opponents and lacks real means to control your opponents outside if Wraths. Using MLD along with artifacts is how RW CONTROL would get its CA.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
People complain that mld isn't fair or fun, but so are many... many aspects of edh strategies.
Are people outside the player playing seedborn muse and a flash everything deck having fun? Extreme stax? Tutoring EVERY turn, or better yet everyone else's turn too? Infinite combining out within turn 4-5 with 2-3 cards?
Probably not. At least mld is a quick scoop mostly. I'd rather play with mld zurgo or jihora and either deal with the played card or lose then dragging out some nonsense as someone has to scry and tutor 20 times in a turn to try and win in response to some foolishness.
I'm not saying I don't understand where some of the hate is coming from... but honestly at least to me, mld is so far down the list compared to other things I don't want to see.
This, right here. While not on par with where the OP was going to begin with, I'm still going to address it.
I play EDH because I do not want to see the same crap that I see in Legacy/Modern/Vintage/Standard. I'm not here to win, I'm here to enjoy the game. So, what, you're going to tell me games are enjoyable when you can't play anything because your lands are blown up?
So from your comment, would I be correct to assume that you feel the format should bend to your personal taste?
I don't play any of those formats. I never have. I feel it is harder to be innovative because everyone plays the same decks.
At the same time, I would not sit down at a Legacy table and complain about it.
Also, no, its not the only tool for RW decks. You(and others) are making it sound like that's the only way you'll win, except its more akin to the only way you won't lose. If you cast Armageddon and it gets countered, did you lose? Sometimes that will be the case, but that outcome is still possible if it resolves, too.
I'm not sure who you are replying to, but I never said any of this.
Suggesting people don't play a certain game because of some tactic they don't agree with is puzzling. Its not the game I have a problem with, it's those employing said tactic. Its compounded by tactics that are proven "fun-sucks" in supposed casual settings, like MLD.
I don't see why it's puzzling. If you went to the Olympics to compete as a swimmer and insisted on doing the backstroke you probably wouldn't do very well, and a different competition might be more suitable. There is nothing wrong with doing the backstroke, you would just be out of your element.
The commander format has a set of rules. It has a set of cards which anyone can play. If you chose to not prepare yourself for a very prevalent strategy, then you are out of your element. In which case it may be better to stick to a casual playgroup, and inform newcomers ahead of time about your preferences.
Again, you can argue what MLD does strategically, but its pretty clear that MLD is a social Taboo.
It's like vaping. No law against it. There are also people that don't vape who don't care that you vape. However, an overwhelming populous prefer that you don't, and probably think you're a douche if you do.
Many, many people play MLD. It is only taboo to people who don't like it (obviously) and likely don't come across very often withing their local setting.
From your responses your opinions seem very self-oriented. In other words "this is good because I like it" or "this is bad because I don't like it." This is a very divisive philosophy and does not mesh well within society. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, but there's no need to be condescending or hostile to people with opposing viewpoints.
You asked me if I you were supposed to have fun without access to your lands. I would respond that you should have fun playing the game with all that comes with it. There are answers to almost everything in magic, whether it be playing more counter/removal or adding mana rocks to your deck. You don't have to play with anyone you don't want to play with, but let's see magic for what it is: a game, with competition and a defined set of rules. Let's not make it into this grandiose embodiment of altruism where everyone sits around the table, hand in hand, singing kumbaya, while they regurgitate the entirety of their decks onto the field unanswered.
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If combo should die before I wake I'll slide a Smokestack in every deck I play, roll in every shop wreck the Spirit of EDH.
SOmetimes playing MLD is not that enough in my playgroup as my playgroup has evolved into putting stuffs like faith rewards against tactics like these.
I have since then evolved into playing Apocalypse.
Seeing as this thread is a few years old, I'm going to Lock it.
If people want to keep discussing MLD, or ways around it, or ways to get around the ways around it... etc... Feel free to start a new and uptodate conversation on the topic.
I think people have seen a ramp player blow their hand out into ramp and have another player tap 4 for geddon the next turn, leaving the ramp player with too few lands in deck to recover as fast as everyone else and no board presence. They mistakenly think that's what mld is there for, when the guy who pulled the play off was running mld as a game winning play and saw the fact that it was an opportunity to use it to screw the ramp player over. Its rare, but it happens, but you should never include it just for that purpose, its the sort of thing that will come up once in a while that you can take advantage of.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I really only cast them when I think that I am going to win next turn or the turn after. It's enchantment tribal, so hopefully all my stuff like Baneful Omen, Price of Knowledge and Mogis himself will kill the opponents before they can recover. No one has really complained, it's just how the deck puts away a game. Very similar to someone landing a Craterhoof Behemoth or ultimating their Elspeth, Sun's Champion, The game is probably going to end and that's fine, just shuffle up and start a new game.
BGGRock
Modern
BRGJund
BBGRock
That's some real deep analysis that adds to the conversation.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
There's not really any more that needs to be added. The mechanic isn't fun to play and makes games really boring. I don't know how the rest of you managed so many words on such a simple topic.
Possibly it might maybe be because not all of us agree, perhaps. Maybe.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
You can disagree on what MLD accomplishes in terms of strategy, but he's absolutely right in terms of what it accomplishes socially.
Its isn't fun. Blowing up lands so people can't play? Yeah, pretty much the epitome of unfun and boring.
Now, that wasn't what the OP was about, but we've drifted from that quite a bit already.
I mean, losing isn't particularly fun. Getting your resources attacked isn't either. But my meta is comprised of adults who like to play strong cards, and when we all get our hands dumped from the Nath of the Gilt-Leaf deck or our lands nuked from the Mina and Denn deck, it's just part of it. You laugh, you re-align politically, and you go for it. We have lots of fun ganging up when someone paints a huge target on their head, even if all our lands have been nuked. It's certainly more fun than watching someone combo out for several minutes, which is okay in most metas people talk about here.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
If I'm about to finish you off with Rith, the Awakener and Purphoros, God of the Forge, casting Armageddon is not spite-MLD. You're just making sure I don't have 2G to deliver the final blow. (As an aside, for such a homely god, Purphoros seems to have a lot of lady friends. Rith, Saskia...Sadly, not the RG love goddess we were hoping for.)
But if you're at 6 life (or 18 commander damage) and you have nothing with flying or reach untapped, casting Armageddon is spite-MLD.
On phasing:
"But Wyvern, MLD isn't the solution because of how feel-bad it is for the non-ramp players caught in the crossfire."
Please stop. MLD IS a solution; we're just so afraid of offending people that we lie to ourselves and pretend that Keldon Firebombers and Natural Balance are the only ways to halt the ramp menace. I can't remember the last time I 'Geddoned after someone else's Boundless Realms and heard anyone but the ramp player complain.
Personal anecdote: My most common use of MLD is in Karona, False God Enchantress - cycling Decree of Annihilation after I've gone Epic with Enduring Ideal is typically enough to shuffle up for another game. Similar situation to Schutzwald's Mogis deck up there.
In certain situations it can beat ramp, but as others have pointed out it isn't as simple as firing off geddon. After Boundless Realms? Yeah, they've probably got 60-75% of their land out at that point, you'll neuter them. Did they just dump their hand into ramp spells and are planning on drawing into threats and casting their commander? Then yes, you'll set them back quite a bit. But if the player just hit 3 ramp spells early, and you geddon, then they will recover faster than anyone else because they probably still have enough ramp and lands coming. The timing is difficult for a lot of players to judge, and so most people's experience is with players who use MLD incorrectly (mostly because, like most strategies, you only get good at it with practice, and since MLD played poorly is so unpopular many people take it out after a few bad games).
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Yes, you're right. I shouldn't have implied that beating ramp is as easy as casting Armageddon - you've gotta be smart about it. And that's the most challenging part.
Had one game where someone got mad because I was using UB Skeleton Ship with infect, and they were saying infect was not fun... while they say with an Enchantress Pillowfort that wins by Forced Fruition, Arcane Laboratory, and Decree of Silence...
MLD is a tool. When used smartly, it works.
The worst part? MLD is the only thing Boros has going for it... My Anya Boros Control deck thrives off of MLD since I lack CA and tradition control methods (counters and such). So use lots of mana rocks, keep blowing lands/Wraths, won his Planeswalkers and Assemble the Legion/Anya.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
I disagree. I enjoy playing against these decks and run answers to stop them.
Not every deck i play can compete with them and I don't play great against a highly tuned stax deck, but I enjoy the competition.
I will never understand why people are so adverse to something that is part of the game. Its like telling someone they shouldn't build a hotel on their property in monopoly or getting upset when they pull a bottom piece in jenga. Normally if people dislike a game they just don't play it, but because we have the luxury of different archetypes in magic we've developed this weird rift between people concerning desired competitiveness. We all like to play different ways, but why complain about a strategy that has been part of magic before the format was even conceived.
Why can't we be graceful about it and move on when confronted with decks that are more competitive than ours, or find a format/game that we find more enjoyable.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
This, right here. While not on par with where the OP was going to begin with, I'm still going to address it.
I play EDH because I do not want to see the same crap that I see in Legacy/Modern/Vintage/Standard. I'm not here to win, I'm here to enjoy the game. So, what, you're going to tell me games are enjoyable when you can't play anything because your lands are blown up?
Also, no, its not the only tool for RW decks. You(and others) are making it sound like that's the only way you'll win, except its more akin to the only way you won't lose. If you cast Armageddon and it gets countered, did you lose? Sometimes that will be the case, but that outcome is still possible if it resolves, too.
Suggesting people don't play a certain game because of some tactic they don't agree with is puzzling. Its not the game I have a problem with, it's those employing said tactic. Its compounded by tactics that are proven "fun-sucks" in supposed casual settings, like MLD.
Again, you can argue what MLD does strategically, but its pretty clear that MLD is a social Taboo.
It's like vaping. No law against it. There are also people that don't vape who don't care that you vape. However, an overwhelming populous prefer that you don't, and probably think you're a douche if you do.
RW CONTROL IS dependent on things like MLD. RW CONTROL lacks other means to maintain CA over its opponents and lacks real means to control your opponents outside if Wraths. Using MLD along with artifacts is how RW CONTROL would get its CA.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Are people outside the player playing seedborn muse and a flash everything deck having fun? Extreme stax? Tutoring EVERY turn, or better yet everyone else's turn too? Infinite combining out within turn 4-5 with 2-3 cards?
Probably not. At least mld is a quick scoop mostly. I'd rather play with mld zurgo or jihora and either deal with the played card or lose then dragging out some nonsense as someone has to scry and tutor 20 times in a turn to try and win in response to some foolishness.
I'm not saying I don't understand where some of the hate is coming from... but honestly at least to me, mld is so far down the list compared to other things I don't want to see.
So from your comment, would I be correct to assume that you feel the format should bend to your personal taste?
I don't play any of those formats. I never have. I feel it is harder to be innovative because everyone plays the same decks.
At the same time, I would not sit down at a Legacy table and complain about it.
I'm not sure who you are replying to, but I never said any of this.
I don't see why it's puzzling. If you went to the Olympics to compete as a swimmer and insisted on doing the backstroke you probably wouldn't do very well, and a different competition might be more suitable. There is nothing wrong with doing the backstroke, you would just be out of your element.
The commander format has a set of rules. It has a set of cards which anyone can play. If you chose to not prepare yourself for a very prevalent strategy, then you are out of your element. In which case it may be better to stick to a casual playgroup, and inform newcomers ahead of time about your preferences.
Many, many people play MLD. It is only taboo to people who don't like it (obviously) and likely don't come across very often withing their local setting.
From your responses your opinions seem very self-oriented. In other words "this is good because I like it" or "this is bad because I don't like it." This is a very divisive philosophy and does not mesh well within society. Everyone has their likes and dislikes, but there's no need to be condescending or hostile to people with opposing viewpoints.
You asked me if I you were supposed to have fun without access to your lands. I would respond that you should have fun playing the game with all that comes with it. There are answers to almost everything in magic, whether it be playing more counter/removal or adding mana rocks to your deck. You don't have to play with anyone you don't want to play with, but let's see magic for what it is: a game, with competition and a defined set of rules. Let's not make it into this grandiose embodiment of altruism where everyone sits around the table, hand in hand, singing kumbaya, while they regurgitate the entirety of their decks onto the field unanswered.
WBRG Saskia the Unyielding
WUB Sharuum the Hegemon
RWU Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest
RG Wort, the Raidmother
WU Brago, King Eternal
B Chainer, Dementia Master
I have since then evolved into playing Apocalypse.
If people want to keep discussing MLD, or ways around it, or ways to get around the ways around it... etc... Feel free to start a new and uptodate conversation on the topic.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek