You need to be able to take advantage of it. Random geddons are stupid. Throwing nbl hate in a deck full of basics is smart. Running mld in a deck with lots of artifact ramp and crucible and other ways of getting lands back is a legit strategy, because again you break the symmetry. Using mld to ice the game once you are ahead on board position is another valid use. Desolation Angel is a good example, or getting walkers on the field and following up with wrath and geddon.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
So I play Magic Online, and MLD = instant concession from players. But the thing is that when people cast a Wrath of God, and I'm playing a creature deck, its the same amount of cards in my deck that get invested into building up the board. Sure mana is the thing that allows you to get back into the game again, but without previous card advantage, you are just as much blown out as MLD. But of course mass creature removal is "fine".
MLD is extremely powerful, but needs the right timing to get advantage, and actually if people play it out, drawing into lands and the player who casts it doesn't, then the game can turn out badly for them. MLD is high-risk and high-reward. Don't just assume it automatically wins the game, and pay heed to the number of times a player will be holding onto the card without an opportunity to really cast it to win.
So I play Magic Online, and MLD = instant concession from players. But the thing is that when people cast a Wrath of God, and I'm playing a creature deck, its the same amount of cards in my deck that get invested into building up the board. Sure mana is the thing that allows you to get back into the game again, but without previous card advantage, you are just as much blown out as MLD. But of course mass creature removal is "fine".
MLD is extremely powerful, but needs the right timing to get advantage, and actually if people play it out, drawing into lands and the player who casts it doesn't, then the game can turn out badly for them. MLD is high-risk and high-reward. Don't just assume it automatically wins the game, and pay heed to the number of times a player will be holding onto the card without an opportunity to really cast it to win.
I play online as well, and I'm probably one of those players. Most action takes place in the "Just for Fun" queue, so if your idea of "fun" is to drag out a game like that, I'll just concede and move onto the next one. Its obviously different circumstances IRL, but I'm not about to spend ~50 minutes durdling when I can easily find another game.
And no, Wrath of God does not equal Armegeddon. If you get blown out by a creature sweeper, that's your fault, don't over extend. Armageddon punishes all players, even the ones fairly building their mana-base one turn at a time. This is EDH, you know. You always have access to at least one creature...
So I play Magic Online, and MLD = instant concession from players. But the thing is that when people cast a Wrath of God, and I'm playing a creature deck, its the same amount of cards in my deck that get invested into building up the board. Sure mana is the thing that allows you to get back into the game again, but without previous card advantage, you are just as much blown out as MLD. But of course mass creature removal is "fine".
MLD is extremely powerful, but needs the right timing to get advantage, and actually if people play it out, drawing into lands and the player who casts it doesn't, then the game can turn out badly for them. MLD is high-risk and high-reward. Don't just assume it automatically wins the game, and pay heed to the number of times a player will be holding onto the card without an opportunity to really cast it to win.
I play online as well, and I'm probably one of those players. Most action takes place in the "Just for Fun" queue, so if your idea of "fun" is to drag out a game like that, I'll just concede and move onto the next one. Its obviously different circumstances IRL, but I'm not about to spend ~50 minutes durdling when I can easily find another game.
And no, Wrath of God does not equal Armegeddon. If you get blown out by a creature sweeper, that's your fault, don't over extend. Armageddon punishes all players, even the ones fairly building their mana-base one turn at a time. This is EDH, you know. You always have access to at least one creature...
I'd say it depends on when it hits. If its turn 10 and they geddon, they are probably going to win. MLD that isn't NBL hate best serves to either lock in board state advantage and lets the caster win, or allows the caster to win because they broke symmetry. If the caster is playing correctly, you aren't going to durdle for 50 minutes. Of course, if you feel like quitting, your probably right to, as if you had a chance after the mld spell resolved you probably wouldn't feel like quitting.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
That sort of deck falls in with the MLD = victory enabling, which IMO isn't the problem. If the player had some ego/attitude that their deck was "better" than everyones due to the MLD, then that is the problem. Like if someone had bounced his Avacyn in response to the Armageddon, his reaction would have told you volumes about the quality of person/player he was.
In my earlier EDH days I used to use mass LD a lot. But as I grew as a player and deckbuilder I learned the errors of my ways. These days I rely on Winter orb and Stasis locks.
Oh, that's evil. I'm assuming you thwart a lot of people that way when you deprive them of their mana? My mind's just gushing with possibilities.
(And that's not even with cards like Seedborn Muse that break it into a million little pieces.)
@Buffsam89: You know, there are ways around Armageddon. Crucible of Worlds or just plain Darksteel Ingot and friends. (Like, seriously, why do people not diversify their mana bases?)
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
In my earlier EDH days I used to use mass LD a lot. But as I grew as a player and deckbuilder I learned the errors of my ways. These days I rely on Winter orb and Stasis locks.
Oh, that's evil. I'm assuming you thwart a lot of people that way when you deprive them of their mana? My mind's just gushing with possibilities.
(And that's not even with cards like Seedborn Muse that break it into a million little pieces.)
@Buffsam89: You know, there are ways around Armageddon. Crucible of Worlds or just plain Darksteel Ingot and friends. (Like, seriously, why do people not diversify their mana bases?)
Hey, thanks, not like I wasn't aware of that or anything.
Maybe read the post? I didn't have to deal with it, the remaining players who were clearly ill-equipped to handle it were. Guess they need to invest $60 to save themselves from it. (Like, really, did you even read?)
Honestly, MLD has no place at casual tables. It's just a total fun-suck. Tap down and lockouts are a bit different, a well timed Disenchant can bring the the table back to normal, not the case after a 'Geddon. As I said above, 9 times out of 10 it affects the wrong players in the worst possible way. If your group is competetive(closed), fire away! It's an expectation that you are readily prepared to deal with or live with. Not the case for the games I primarily play.
In my earlier EDH days I used to use mass LD a lot. But as I grew as a player and deckbuilder I learned the errors of my ways. These days I rely on Winter orb and Stasis locks.
Oh, that's evil. I'm assuming you thwart a lot of people that way when you deprive them of their mana? My mind's just gushing with possibilities.
(And that's not even with cards like Seedborn Muse that break it into a million little pieces.)
@Buffsam89: You know, there are ways around Armageddon. Crucible of Worlds or just plain Darksteel Ingot and friends. (Like, seriously, why do people not diversify their mana bases?)
Hey, thanks, not like I wasn't aware of that or anything.
Maybe read the post? I didn't have to deal with it, the remaining players who were clearly ill-equipped to handle it were. Guess they need to invest $60 to save themselves from it. (Like, really, did you even read?)
Honestly, MLD has no place at casual tables. It's just a total fun-suck. Tap down and lockouts are a bit different, a well timed Disenchant can bring the the table back to normal, not the case after a 'Geddon. As I said above, 9 times out of 10 it affects the wrong players in the worst possible way. If your group is competetive(closed), fire away! It's an expectation that you are readily prepared to deal with or live with. Not the case for the games I primarily play.
Wow, a whole $60 on cards that are good anyway.
I can see being annoyed with MLD that's improperly used, just like someone who slings counterspells with no threat assessment or shutting down the guy that isn't the threat. But whining about mld on principal? That's like whining that someone won with a combo, or that someone countered your combo.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Honestly, MLD has no place at casual tables. It's just a total fun-suck.
I agree with you here. The main reason for this is that a lot of people are bad at using MLD. You need a reasonably skilled set of players to turn MLD into game-winning plays rather than "oops, now the game just sucks" button. There is certainly some interesting mental fun to be had when you are trying to maneuver yourself into a game-winning boardstate while making sure your opponents can't catch up before you blow up the world. Basically, you use MLD to wrap up the game when you have a good chance at winning, not to equalize things as I often see novice players doing.
It's not really the MLD's fault, it's the way it is used. Think of it as a combo that wins when you have the proper boardstate rather than cards X, Y, and Z.
In my earlier EDH days I used to use mass LD a lot. But as I grew as a player and deckbuilder I learned the errors of my ways. These days I rely on Winter orb and Stasis locks.
Oh, that's evil. I'm assuming you thwart a lot of people that way when you deprive them of their mana? My mind's just gushing with possibilities.
(And that's not even with cards like Seedborn Muse that break it into a million little pieces.)
@Buffsam89: You know, there are ways around Armageddon. Crucible of Worlds or just plain Darksteel Ingot and friends. (Like, seriously, why do people not diversify their mana bases?)
Hey, thanks, not like I wasn't aware of that or anything.
Maybe read the post? I didn't have to deal with it, the remaining players who were clearly ill-equipped to handle it were. Guess they need to invest $60 to save themselves from it. (Like, really, did you even read?)
Honestly, MLD has no place at casual tables. It's just a total fun-suck. Tap down and lockouts are a bit different, a well timed Disenchant can bring the the table back to normal, not the case after a 'Geddon. As I said above, 9 times out of 10 it affects the wrong players in the worst possible way. If your group is competetive(closed), fire away! It's an expectation that you are readily prepared to deal with or live with. Not the case for the games I primarily play.
Wow, a whole $60 on cards that are good anyway.
I can see being annoyed with MLD that's improperly used, just like someone who slings counterspells with no threat assessment or shutting down the guy that isn't the threat. But whining about mld on principal? That's like whining that someone won with a combo, or that someone countered your combo.
Yeah, some players collections consist of cards totaling $60.
But hey, I'm not getting near this one. All I'm going to say, is, I'd never suggest spending additional money to, in essence, have fun.
MLD in a casual multiplayer game is very feel-bad. If anything, I'd classify these cards as "cheap wins", alongside Time Walk variants, Insurrection, Rise of Dark Realms, etc. Cards like these get lame and boring real fast.
If you're looking to play EDH for only one day, be my guest. Otherwise I recommend anyone to shelf these cards aside.
"Choosing not to" is different from "adapting your plays". It takes courage, and is a challenge to refrain from cheap wins.
Honestly, I would much rather play against Armageddon than Time Warp. Taking extra turns breaks the game in a much more fundamental way. When I used to play them in Maelstrom Wanderer, cascading into a warp typically meant one player was dead. I don't play them much anymore because I like having fun, and those don't do it for me anymore.
Short answer: The first rule of Commander is, nothing lasts forever. Why should lands be any different?
Lands are restricted to one per turn to limit the tempo of the game. Resetting the tempo back to zero without a clear victory in sight is to reset the entire game. Nobody can execute a game plan, it's not interesting or fun. One beginning is enough for most games.
Wiping out creatures, artifacts, enchantments, or a graveyard is different, people still have resources and can restore their board state or increase their resources as fast as they are able to. A single good topdeck could produce a nice new interesting game plan for the player. It alters the tempo of the game, but not nearly so dramatically as a land wipe does.
Without resources there is no game plan, no choices to be made. Prison decks and strategies that intend to starve your opponents of resources may be interesting to the callous player employing them but the way in which it locks other players out of making any choices they were hoping to be able to make in the game, while keeping them in said game, is extremely frustrating. I can only imagine that this is why this stuff doesn't get printed anymore (a clue!). This is why so many players don't like it. I have successfully lobbied for votes ejecting such players (mass LD or stasis/winter orb land hate decks) on MTGO in 4 player commander games, after which I block them and good riddance.
The only mass land removal spell I don't mind playing or seeing played currently is The Great Aurora.
Lands are restricted to one per turn to limit the tempo of the game. Resetting the tempo back to zero without a clear victory in sight is to reset the entire game. Nobody can execute a game plan, it's not interesting or fun. One beginning is enough for most games.
Wiping out creatures, artifacts, enchantments, or a graveyard is different, people still have resources and can restore their board state or increase their resources as fast as they are able to. A single good topdeck could produce a nice new interesting game plan for the player. It alters the tempo of the game, but not nearly so dramatically as a land wipe does.
Two things.
1) Taking this rationale to its logical end (i.e., that MLD is bad because it alters the one-land-per-turn tempo) demands that any effect that accelerates acquisition of land must be considered bad. For the same reason. So if you soft-ban MLD for this rationale, then you must soft-ban Boundless Realms as well.
2) If we view post-MLD as a new beginning, then what is the fundamental difference between that scenario and someone's winning that turn through a massive burn spell? What makes "start building from zero resources" fun on the one hand and craptastic on the other? I honestly can't even begin to empathize, because I can't at any level see how Devastation Tide+Sunder is phenomenologically worse than Krenko, Mob Boss->a billionty damages.
Lands are restricted to one per turn to limit the tempo of the game. Resetting the tempo back to zero without a clear victory in sight is to reset the entire game. Nobody can execute a game plan, it's not interesting or fun. One beginning is enough for most games.
Wiping out creatures, artifacts, enchantments, or a graveyard is different, people still have resources and can restore their board state or increase their resources as fast as they are able to. A single good topdeck could produce a nice new interesting game plan for the player. It alters the tempo of the game, but not nearly so dramatically as a land wipe does.
Two things.
1) Taking this rationale to its logical end (i.e., that MLD is bad because it alters the one-land-per-turn tempo) demands that any effect that accelerates acquisition of land must be considered bad. For the same reason. So if you soft-ban MLD for this rationale, then you must soft-ban Boundless Realms as well.
2) If we view post-MLD as a new beginning, then what is the fundamental difference between that scenario and someone's winning that turn through a massive burn spell? What makes "start building from zero resources" fun on the one hand and craptastic on the other? I honestly can't even begin to empathize, because I can't at any level see how Devastation Tide+Sunder is phenomenologically worse than Krenko, Mob Boss->a billionty damages.
This is getting a bit silly. Really? No lands = Too many lands?
What "massive burn spell" wins with 4-mana? I mean, come on now, you can't seriously believe anything you just typed.
Lands are restricted to one per turn to limit the tempo of the game. Resetting the tempo back to zero without a clear victory in sight is to reset the entire game. Nobody can execute a game plan, it's not interesting or fun. One beginning is enough for most games.
Wiping out creatures, artifacts, enchantments, or a graveyard is different, people still have resources and can restore their board state or increase their resources as fast as they are able to. A single good topdeck could produce a nice new interesting game plan for the player. It alters the tempo of the game, but not nearly so dramatically as a land wipe does.
Two things.
1) Taking this rationale to its logical end (i.e., that MLD is bad because it alters the one-land-per-turn tempo) demands that any effect that accelerates acquisition of land must be considered bad. For the same reason. So if you soft-ban MLD for this rationale, then you must soft-ban Boundless Realms as well.
2) If we view post-MLD as a new beginning, then what is the fundamental difference between that scenario and someone's winning that turn through a massive burn spell? What makes "start building from zero resources" fun on the one hand and craptastic on the other? I honestly can't even begin to empathize, because I can't at any level see how Devastation Tide+Sunder is phenomenologically worse than Krenko, Mob Boss->a billionty damages.
This is getting a bit silly. Really? No lands = Too many lands?
What "massive burn spell" wins with 4-mana? I mean, come on now, you can't seriously believe anything you just typed.
Are you incapable of parsing a syllogism?
His argument:
1) if x significantly alters the land-per-turn tempo, then x is bad.
This is his assumed premise. It is controversial and not agreed upon, so to show it false I presume it true and derive an absurdity.
1) if x significantly alters the land-per-turn tempo, then x is bad.
2) Boundless Realms significantly alters the land-per-turn tempo
3) Boundless Realms is bad
We know (3) is absurd, so we must reject (1)
Note that I am not arguing in favor of MLD, merely showing that his was a poor argument against it.
As for there being a four mana burn spell that ends the game, the mana cost of the MLD was not previously at issue, so why should we be concerned with the cost of the burn spell?
Lands are restricted to one per turn to limit the tempo of the game. Resetting the tempo back to zero without a clear victory in sight is to reset the entire game. Nobody can execute a game plan, it's not interesting or fun. One beginning is enough for most games.
Wiping out creatures, artifacts, enchantments, or a graveyard is different, people still have resources and can restore their board state or increase their resources as fast as they are able to. A single good topdeck could produce a nice new interesting game plan for the player. It alters the tempo of the game, but not nearly so dramatically as a land wipe does.
Two things.
1) Taking this rationale to its logical end (i.e., that MLD is bad because it alters the one-land-per-turn tempo) demands that any effect that accelerates acquisition of land must be considered bad. For the same reason. So if you soft-ban MLD for this rationale, then you must soft-ban Boundless Realms as well.
2) If we view post-MLD as a new beginning, then what is the fundamental difference between that scenario and someone's winning that turn through a massive burn spell? What makes "start building from zero resources" fun on the one hand and craptastic on the other? I honestly can't even begin to empathize, because I can't at any level see how Devastation Tide+Sunder is phenomenologically worse than Krenko, Mob Boss->a billionty damages.
This is getting a bit silly. Really? No lands = Too many lands?
What "massive burn spell" wins with 4-mana? I mean, come on now, you can't seriously believe anything you just typed.
Are you incapable of parsing a syllogism?
His argument:
1) if x significantly alters the land-per-turn tempo, then x is bad.
This is his assumed premise. It is controversial and not agreed upon, so to show it false I presume it true and derive an absurdity.
1) if x significantly alters the land-per-turn tempo, then x is bad.
2) Boundless Realms significantly alters the land-per-turn tempo
3) Boundless Realms is bad
We know (3) is absurd, so we must reject (1)
Note that I am not arguing in favor of MLD, merely showing that his was a poor argument against it.
As for there being a four mana burn spell that ends the game, the mana cost of the MLD was not previously at issue, so why should we be concerned with the cost of the burn spell?
Well, in all fairness, I guess when I'm late to a party, I don't usually ask what went on prior to my arrival, either.
In my experience, I've never seen anyone use MLD and win, the exception of one person I play with that has an elves/token deck. A couple of says ago a person kept throwing down MLDs even though i had a Crucible of Worlds and an Oracle of Mul Daya in play. That's always been the generally story, they wipe the lands without any real sort of back up, often times ignoring what's already in play and even going as far as to miss their own land drops, and never recovering from their own card. So while in theory I'm all for MLD, in practice I'd rather not have the game bd extended for another hour just to watch that person lose miserably.
In my experience, I've never seen anyone use MLD and win, the exception of one person I play with that has an elves/token deck. A couple of says ago a person kept throwing down MLDs even though i had a Crucible of Worlds and an Oracle of Mul Daya in play. That's always been the generally story, they wipe the lands without any real sort of back up, often times ignoring what's already in play and even going as far as to miss their own land drops, and never recovering from their own card. So while in theory I'm all for MLD, in practice I'd rather not have the game bd extended for another hour just to watch that person lose miserably.
Then your problem isn't with mld, its with bad players. Its the same idea with aggro. Some people hate it because everyone they know that plays aggro does nothing but overextend and single in on one person, or doesn't know how to diversify their threats or pack answers, so they end up knocking one guy out then folding to Wrath. Aggro, of course, doesn't have to play like that, but that's how bad players play it (although, sometimes its right to focus on one person if they are the person who can stop you, but that's a separate discussion). Its not different than the guy who runs 27counters.dek that doesn't know when and what he should counter, so he counters your fatty and lets the other guy's combo piece resolve. Its not different from the guy that Persecutes or Mind Twists the wrong guy at the table.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Then your problem isn't with mld, its with bad players. Its the same idea with aggro. Some people hate it because everyone they know that plays aggro does nothing but overextend and single in on one person, or doesn't know how to diversify their threats or pack answers, so they end up knocking one guy out then folding to Wrath. Aggro, of course, doesn't have to play like that, but that's how bad players play it (although, sometimes its right to focus on one person if they are the person who can stop you, but that's a separate discussion). Its not different than the guy who runs 27counters.dek that doesn't know when and what he should counter, so he counters your fatty and lets the other guy's combo piece resolve. Its not different from the guy that Persecutes or Mind Twists the wrong guy at the table.
Yeh, that's why I said I was fine with it in theory. That said, my playgroup also includes those kind of aggro and control players :(.
Speaking of, I'm not sure I understand the logic of pre-emptively using MLD against ramp decks. I mean even if they blew out a high amount of lands early but it's still early enough in the game where a MLD activation would hinder them, wouldn't it just slow down the game to a crawl because I wrecked -everyone's- lands and now we all have to recovery? Seems like a pretty bad play in general unless you're either far ahead or closing out the game.
Then your problem isn't with mld, its with bad players. Its the same idea with aggro. Some people hate it because everyone they know that plays aggro does nothing but overextend and single in on one person, or doesn't know how to diversify their threats or pack answers, so they end up knocking one guy out then folding to Wrath. Aggro, of course, doesn't have to play like that, but that's how bad players play it (although, sometimes its right to focus on one person if they are the person who can stop you, but that's a separate discussion). Its not different than the guy who runs 27counters.dek that doesn't know when and what he should counter, so he counters your fatty and lets the other guy's combo piece resolve. Its not different from the guy that Persecutes or Mind Twists the wrong guy at the table.
Yeh, that's why I said I was fine with it in theory. That said, my playgroup also includes those kind of aggro and control players :(.
Speaking of, I'm not sure I understand the logic of pre-emptively using MLD against ramp decks. I mean even if they blew out a high amount of lands early but it's still early enough in the game where a MLD activation would hinder them, wouldn't it just slow down the game to a crawl because I wrecked -everyone's- lands and now we all have to recovery? Seems like a pretty bad play in general unless you're either far ahead or closing out the game.
That's because MLD doesn't counter ramp with the exception of a few cards and people that push that agenda have no clue what they are talking about. You counter ramp with lockdown elements. The thing is, in stax decks lockdown and MLD are used together, so it confuses people. The MLD that hurts ramp is along the lines of Natural Balance, Keldon Firebombers, and Pox. All of those take out more of the ramp player's lands and still leave you with some resources to do things in a lower-curve deck. On the other side of things, ramp decks love playing cards like Wildfire, Tectonic Break, and Death Cloud because they have more lands to start with and can recover those lands as well.
Other than that, what stops ramp is something like Winter Orb or Storm Cauldron. All of a sudden your Explosive Vegetation isn't very helpful if you can't untap those extra lands (along with the lands you spent on the spell) or you have to return 4 lands to cast it.
MLD is used to seal a win. A large board with a Ghostway + Jokulhaups or a Cataclysm + Titania, Protector of Argoth will win you the game. The key to this is playing around disruption. You need to play it in the same way you'd play a combo; you don't just rush it out there and hope you push through the disruption. But, also just like combo, MLD is frowned upon so people tend to be bad at playing it effectively. It's kind of a vicious cycle.
Realistically, if your group banned MLD and combo what you are saying is ramp and gravepact decks are all you want to see, since your W/R aggro cannot compete with that Prime Speaker Zegana/Maelstrom Wanderer/Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck once they get their expensive threats out there.
Personally I wouldnt mind if more people played it once in a while but every game would get boring as hell. The other meta consideration is the spite play. I've been in a game where a player dropped Armageddon then scooped because they were stuck on 4 lands and were bored of our company.
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EDH BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern: RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
MLD is extremely powerful, but needs the right timing to get advantage, and actually if people play it out, drawing into lands and the player who casts it doesn't, then the game can turn out badly for them. MLD is high-risk and high-reward. Don't just assume it automatically wins the game, and pay heed to the number of times a player will be holding onto the card without an opportunity to really cast it to win.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith
I play online as well, and I'm probably one of those players. Most action takes place in the "Just for Fun" queue, so if your idea of "fun" is to drag out a game like that, I'll just concede and move onto the next one. Its obviously different circumstances IRL, but I'm not about to spend ~50 minutes durdling when I can easily find another game.
And no, Wrath of God does not equal Armegeddon. If you get blown out by a creature sweeper, that's your fault, don't over extend. Armageddon punishes all players, even the ones fairly building their mana-base one turn at a time. This is EDH, you know. You always have access to at least one creature...
I'd say it depends on when it hits. If its turn 10 and they geddon, they are probably going to win. MLD that isn't NBL hate best serves to either lock in board state advantage and lets the caster win, or allows the caster to win because they broke symmetry. If the caster is playing correctly, you aren't going to durdle for 50 minutes. Of course, if you feel like quitting, your probably right to, as if you had a chance after the mld spell resolved you probably wouldn't feel like quitting.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I'll go out on a limb and guess they ran Zurgo Helmsmasher? Probably with a Worldslayer in the deck?
That sort of deck falls in with the MLD = victory enabling, which IMO isn't the problem. If the player had some ego/attitude that their deck was "better" than everyones due to the MLD, then that is the problem. Like if someone had bounced his Avacyn in response to the Armageddon, his reaction would have told you volumes about the quality of person/player he was.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Oh, that's evil. I'm assuming you thwart a lot of people that way when you deprive them of their mana? My mind's just gushing with possibilities.
(And that's not even with cards like Seedborn Muse that break it into a million little pieces.)
My personal favorite is combining Parallax Tide with Faith Healer.
@Buffsam89: You know, there are ways around Armageddon. Crucible of Worlds or just plain Darksteel Ingot and friends. (Like, seriously, why do people not diversify their mana bases?)
And of course, there are whole decks built around Land Tax and Scroll Rack.
On phasing:
Hey, thanks, not like I wasn't aware of that or anything.
Maybe read the post? I didn't have to deal with it, the remaining players who were clearly ill-equipped to handle it were. Guess they need to invest $60 to save themselves from it. (Like, really, did you even read?)
Honestly, MLD has no place at casual tables. It's just a total fun-suck. Tap down and lockouts are a bit different, a well timed Disenchant can bring the the table back to normal, not the case after a 'Geddon. As I said above, 9 times out of 10 it affects the wrong players in the worst possible way. If your group is competetive(closed), fire away! It's an expectation that you are readily prepared to deal with or live with. Not the case for the games I primarily play.
Wow, a whole $60 on cards that are good anyway.
I can see being annoyed with MLD that's improperly used, just like someone who slings counterspells with no threat assessment or shutting down the guy that isn't the threat. But whining about mld on principal? That's like whining that someone won with a combo, or that someone countered your combo.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I agree with you here. The main reason for this is that a lot of people are bad at using MLD. You need a reasonably skilled set of players to turn MLD into game-winning plays rather than "oops, now the game just sucks" button. There is certainly some interesting mental fun to be had when you are trying to maneuver yourself into a game-winning boardstate while making sure your opponents can't catch up before you blow up the world. Basically, you use MLD to wrap up the game when you have a good chance at winning, not to equalize things as I often see novice players doing.
It's not really the MLD's fault, it's the way it is used. Think of it as a combo that wins when you have the proper boardstate rather than cards X, Y, and Z.
I enjoy Keldon Firebombers as well.
Yeah, some players collections consist of cards totaling $60.
But hey, I'm not getting near this one. All I'm going to say, is, I'd never suggest spending additional money to, in essence, have fun.
Go play chess then. This is fundamentally a money-for-fun game. Hence why good cards cost $$$.
If you're looking to play EDH for only one day, be my guest. Otherwise I recommend anyone to shelf these cards aside.
"Choosing not to" is different from "adapting your plays". It takes courage, and is a challenge to refrain from cheap wins.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Lands are restricted to one per turn to limit the tempo of the game. Resetting the tempo back to zero without a clear victory in sight is to reset the entire game. Nobody can execute a game plan, it's not interesting or fun. One beginning is enough for most games.
Wiping out creatures, artifacts, enchantments, or a graveyard is different, people still have resources and can restore their board state or increase their resources as fast as they are able to. A single good topdeck could produce a nice new interesting game plan for the player. It alters the tempo of the game, but not nearly so dramatically as a land wipe does.
Without resources there is no game plan, no choices to be made. Prison decks and strategies that intend to starve your opponents of resources may be interesting to the callous player employing them but the way in which it locks other players out of making any choices they were hoping to be able to make in the game, while keeping them in said game, is extremely frustrating. I can only imagine that this is why this stuff doesn't get printed anymore (a clue!). This is why so many players don't like it. I have successfully lobbied for votes ejecting such players (mass LD or stasis/winter orb land hate decks) on MTGO in 4 player commander games, after which I block them and good riddance.
The only mass land removal spell I don't mind playing or seeing played currently is The Great Aurora.
Two things.
1) Taking this rationale to its logical end (i.e., that MLD is bad because it alters the one-land-per-turn tempo) demands that any effect that accelerates acquisition of land must be considered bad. For the same reason. So if you soft-ban MLD for this rationale, then you must soft-ban Boundless Realms as well.
2) If we view post-MLD as a new beginning, then what is the fundamental difference between that scenario and someone's winning that turn through a massive burn spell? What makes "start building from zero resources" fun on the one hand and craptastic on the other? I honestly can't even begin to empathize, because I can't at any level see how Devastation Tide+Sunder is phenomenologically worse than Krenko, Mob Boss->a billionty damages.
This is getting a bit silly. Really? No lands = Too many lands?
What "massive burn spell" wins with 4-mana? I mean, come on now, you can't seriously believe anything you just typed.
Are you incapable of parsing a syllogism?
His argument:
1) if x significantly alters the land-per-turn tempo, then x is bad.
This is his assumed premise. It is controversial and not agreed upon, so to show it false I presume it true and derive an absurdity.
1) if x significantly alters the land-per-turn tempo, then x is bad.
2) Boundless Realms significantly alters the land-per-turn tempo
3) Boundless Realms is bad
We know (3) is absurd, so we must reject (1)
Note that I am not arguing in favor of MLD, merely showing that his was a poor argument against it.
As for there being a four mana burn spell that ends the game, the mana cost of the MLD was not previously at issue, so why should we be concerned with the cost of the burn spell?
Well, in all fairness, I guess when I'm late to a party, I don't usually ask what went on prior to my arrival, either.
Then your problem isn't with mld, its with bad players. Its the same idea with aggro. Some people hate it because everyone they know that plays aggro does nothing but overextend and single in on one person, or doesn't know how to diversify their threats or pack answers, so they end up knocking one guy out then folding to Wrath. Aggro, of course, doesn't have to play like that, but that's how bad players play it (although, sometimes its right to focus on one person if they are the person who can stop you, but that's a separate discussion). Its not different than the guy who runs 27counters.dek that doesn't know when and what he should counter, so he counters your fatty and lets the other guy's combo piece resolve. Its not different from the guy that Persecutes or Mind Twists the wrong guy at the table.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Yeh, that's why I said I was fine with it in theory. That said, my playgroup also includes those kind of aggro and control players :(.
Speaking of, I'm not sure I understand the logic of pre-emptively using MLD against ramp decks. I mean even if they blew out a high amount of lands early but it's still early enough in the game where a MLD activation would hinder them, wouldn't it just slow down the game to a crawl because I wrecked -everyone's- lands and now we all have to recovery? Seems like a pretty bad play in general unless you're either far ahead or closing out the game.
That's because MLD doesn't counter ramp with the exception of a few cards and people that push that agenda have no clue what they are talking about. You counter ramp with lockdown elements. The thing is, in stax decks lockdown and MLD are used together, so it confuses people. The MLD that hurts ramp is along the lines of Natural Balance, Keldon Firebombers, and Pox. All of those take out more of the ramp player's lands and still leave you with some resources to do things in a lower-curve deck. On the other side of things, ramp decks love playing cards like Wildfire, Tectonic Break, and Death Cloud because they have more lands to start with and can recover those lands as well.
Other than that, what stops ramp is something like Winter Orb or Storm Cauldron. All of a sudden your Explosive Vegetation isn't very helpful if you can't untap those extra lands (along with the lands you spent on the spell) or you have to return 4 lands to cast it.
MLD is used to seal a win. A large board with a Ghostway + Jokulhaups or a Cataclysm + Titania, Protector of Argoth will win you the game. The key to this is playing around disruption. You need to play it in the same way you'd play a combo; you don't just rush it out there and hope you push through the disruption. But, also just like combo, MLD is frowned upon so people tend to be bad at playing it effectively. It's kind of a vicious cycle.
Realistically, if your group banned MLD and combo what you are saying is ramp and gravepact decks are all you want to see, since your W/R aggro cannot compete with that Prime Speaker Zegana/Maelstrom Wanderer/Meren of Clan Nel Toth deck once they get their expensive threats out there.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.