Every time somebody tries to keep my ramping in check with MLD I just end up recovering faster than everyone else or I'm already ahead on big flying beatstick resources anyways. Sure it might work on greedy people that are bad at playing ramp who don't play enough rocks with the land search and don't know how much they need but to me ramp is actually the cure to getting my lands blown up.
Wanna destroy the lands to establish a checkmate? Good play! High five! Play it just to be cute? Please go find another table.
I am not a fan of MLD, i have no problem ganging p on people who do play it and I hold grudges and tend to gun for people who do play MLD in the next game.
That said I have also played MLD in my decks, though it was for a lock or for a win. Sliver Hivelord was a win con as I had indest slivers, i would Jokulhaups and then full swing. As for Arcum Dagsson, it was a lock (thoug mainly a win con), TheDisklock is evil, and i had no problem using it to win.
In fact my deck that I am currently working on, will use armageddon
Nothing against MLD and my decks are frequently well prepared to deal with it, but I'm going to play differently in a meta where it's acceptable than one where it's not. My current group is not a fan of it on the whole, so I go greedy more often than not and don't run any of it myself. The last time I had Hazezon together, I completely ran out of fetchable lands more than once. That said I've also used it as a win con and as a tempo play in decks in the past. Like a lot of things in this format, it's very group dependent.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I like playing games were mass destruction is a thing. I also like having some games where I don't have to worry about it.
I don't play any mass land destruction currently, though I do have a Winter Orb in my Merieke deck and a Hokori, Dust Drinker in my Asmira deck.
I've been wanting to make a deck that uses Wildfire for a while, but I can't think of one that works for me at the moment. (I'm too attached to my current decks to tear one apart for a deck using Wildfire.)
Notice the decks I gave examples to... NOT Gitrog because his deck intentionally kills lands. But Azusa, Mina and Den, and Omnath. Decks who's very purpose is fast ramp to play Eldrazi or mass tokens (for omnath).
The point still stands. You combat ramp decks by taxing their ramp. MLD may work a few times if it's a new strategy, but if your ramp playing friends are decent at magic they will adapt and you will find they recover faster at the cost of only a small slowdown in their gameplan.
Never understood all the hate for MLD spells. Like others have said, resource denial is part of the game. That's the whole purpose of some decks (I'm looking at you Stax). If your deck gets utterly destroyed by MLD spells, then I would say it's more of an issue with your deck than it is with the spell.
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"Be silent, thou accursed wolf;
Consume within thyself with thine own rage."
-Dante's Inferno (Canto VII)
I play armageddon in Cap Sisay, but mostly as a win condition with Titania out. I don't think Amrageddon effects are good versus Ramp decks, mostly because ramp decks (in my experience) play a lot of mana dorks. I play Yisan and Cap Sisay and in both decks, I play a lot of mana creatures, so mass land destruction isn't going to effect me very much and most likely the one casting Armageddon just put me in the Throne. I don't know of many Green X decks that don't play mana dorks, so I have to say I don't see the advantage of using armageddon to control ramp decks.
i hate to do this, but in my experience, that sounds like the exact kinda thing that people who've never tried/experienced it in real life would say.
Incorrect, I used to play it a lot. Never could outrace the ramper unless I was already WAY in front.
Think about MLD against ramp like this:...
Except its not doing a ton of thinning, they are usually playing land recursion, and they surely have more ramp coming. Maybe you can be even, but the hate you are going to draw wont exactly let you hand around.
Never understood all the hate for MLD spells. Like others have said, resource denial is part of the game. That's the whole purpose of some decks (I'm looking at you Stax). If your deck gets utterly destroyed by MLD spells, then I would say it's more of an issue with your deck than it is with the spell.
Its a lot more about starting over than losing. Being an hour in with resources and a gameplan, and now everyone is back to 0? Pass on that
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I like to play MLD in RW and RWB to keep my opponents from answering threats when I'm ahead. I found that cards like Winter Orb, Zo-zu the Punisher and Manabarbs are better at containing ramping players than MLD because they generally recover much faster from it as pointed out by others.
I like to play MLD in RW and RWB to keep my opponents from answering threats when I'm ahead. I found that cards like Winter Orb, Zo-zu the Punisher and Manabarbs are better at containing ramping players than MLD because they generally recover much faster from it as pointed out by others.
Agreed. Usually it's a temporary fix and the taxes are what really kill those decks. Zo-zu the Punisher and Manabarbs have done work in my Nekusar deck at shutting those strats down.
I like to play MLD in RW and RWB to keep my opponents from answering threats when I'm ahead. I found that cards like Winter Orb, Zo-zu the Punisher and Manabarbs are better at containing ramping players than MLD because they generally recover much faster from it as pointed out by others.
Agreed. Usually it's a temporary fix and the taxes are what really kill those decks. Zo-zu the Punisher and Manabarbs have done work in my Nekusar deck at shutting those strats down.
As someone who does have a Zo-Zu punisher deck (and a Mogis Punisher with Zo-Zu in it), the deck does run MLD. Alot. Since most of the deck is about 3-4 cost, I run on artifacts and MLD and let Zo-Zu do the work again. But MLD os still necessary for him to do his thing (turns out that R lacks many answers to dudes on boards)
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
MLD is how I deal with a lot of problems and seal the deal in my Grand Arbiter deck. Nothing is quite as nice as casting a 'geddon, then playing Tabernacle as my land for the turn.
MLD is a strategy that a lot of players just don't plan for, but could if they wanted to. Using alternate mana sources, Crucible of Worlds, and lands like Darksteel Citadel, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds and Flagstones of Trokair can mitigate or discourage MLD from having its intended effect.
One of the reasons I love EDH is that it allows people to employ strategies that have been discouraged or removed from Magic entirely in Magic's most common constructed formats. Erhnam-geddon used to be THE deck a long time ago and no one found it to be anti-social, they just had to accept its presence and figure out how to beat it. Though when people start maindecking Equinox, you may have gone too far.
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EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Short answer: The first rule of Commander is, nothing lasts forever. Why should lands be any different?
Long answer: The reality is, you need to diversify your mana sources. That means I should be able to hate out your mana rocks with Bane of Progress, your mana dorks with Pestilence, yourmanawalkers with Æther Snap...and your ramp spells with Armageddon. And you should be able to do the same with me. (And the usual kvetch about how Commander players really need to start looking at mana costs.)
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Short answer: The first rule of Commander is, nothing lasts forever. Why should lands be any different?
Long answer: The reality is, you need to diversify your mana sources. That means I should be able to hate out your mana rocks with Bane of Progress, your mana dorks with Pestilence, yourmanawalkers with Æther Snap...and your ramp spells with Armageddon. And you should be able to do the same with me. (And the usual kvetch about how Commander players really need to start looking at mana costs.)
This is how I've always seen it. I'm glad to see someone else who understands this.
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Currently Playing: R8whackR WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
MLD cadinal sin.
I have made my opinion on it clear in the past.
When you MLD you are preventing any player from casting spells not just the one that was ramping, now its all who draws lands form the top of thier deck for the rest of the game.
You are playing a nuke when a knife would do. Is the player ramping the problem? or is the fact anyone is playing spells that is the problem? Furthermore if its in your deck you will use it, and you will use it at the wrong time. In spite to stop someone from wining even if you have no path to victory its just going to perlong the game, a game no one wants to play any more.
I get that in the other thread I said that people just have to get used to playing against wrath of god but there is a diference between that and bane of progress, and Armageddon..... you can only play one land a turn. You can't just recover your lands in a couple of turns, you have to play land go back up to 6 mana before you can cast anything. And guess who will recover faster... thats right the ramp player.
MLD = no fun for anyone and I don't want to play against it. I don't normally play ramp either, my decks have low curves (2.5 ish) and the times it has been used against me, I have a high win rate. I still hate it.
if you're playing with people who's decks consist of nothing but 2 card infinites, protection/removal and ramp/draw/dig, by all means blow them out. If you're playing in a meta with no infinites and mostly casual themed decks, please GTFO.
A multiplayer victory has to exist beyond simply beating your opponent, there has to be a mutual enjoyment of everyone involved. If you win the game and everyone else is miserable then you've still lost. What gets played is irrelevant.
Two cents from my meta... you've got plenty of other formats to be hyper-competitive and be all about winning. EDH is about fun in our LGS and it is a fact that the funnest games come when everyone's decks are firing. EDH isn't just about my deck being better than yours or precisely tuned, it's about seeing everyone's crazy decks and some janky cards not seen elsewhere. Let negotiation keep the lead player in check. MLD just makes everyone unable to play, completely stupid, thanks for wasting my Thursday night. We don't ban anything, but play MLD and just try to sit at the main table again, everyone will get up and move to a different table. If you have a legitimate LD strategy, maybe everyone doesn't ostracize you.
No different than the rest of life, everyone can be an ********, but some people actually know it and some people actually care.
It can be rough to play against, but can be an easy win-condition for some generals.
If you can hard-cast something like decree of annihilation and have enough mana to cast your commander from the command zone, or if you have a threatening planeswalker still out, that is almost always gg. Narset decks usually win with their cataclysm/razia's purification.
What I don't like is the random Armageddon in a deck not equipped to actually use it effectively, and a salty opponent casts it because they are about to die. That is some obnoxious crap, and IMO is the main reason MLD has such a bad reputation.
It can be rough to play against, but can be an easy win-condition for some generals.
If you can hard-cast something like decree of annihilation and have enough mana to cast your commander from the command zone, or if you have a threatening planeswalker still out, that is almost always gg. Narset decks usually win with their cataclysm/razia's purification.
What I don't like is the random Armageddon in a deck not equipped to actually use it effectively, and a salty opponent casts it because they are about to die. That is some obnoxious crap, and IMO is the main reason MLD has such a bad reputation.
I had a scenario similar to this the other night.
I had been eliminated, so 3 players remained. 2 of the players had budget mana-based, basics and CIPT lands like Frontier Biouvac. Anyway, the player that eliminated me was playing Mardu goodstuff, and was the farthest ahead at that point.(turn 4 reanimated an Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Ashen Rider). Turn 9, he 'geddons, and proceeds to solitaire into a win. I told him he the other players should give him a swift kick in the nads, and he just laughed and said we were salty, and that he's great and blah, blah, blah. He had the game, no need for it. This happens far to often with players who run it. It kills causal games more often than not. So, yeah, I'm not a fan.
MLD is great if you can break the symmetry. I love playing Wildfire and Tectonic Break effects in Mina and Denn, especially with a Mana Flare effect out. Rebuilding twice as fast as everyone else is a great way to win the game two or so turns after blowing up the world.
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I can't say I'm pleased to see you and must warn you I may have to do something about it.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: URDelver
Modern: UGRDelver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
In my earlier EDH days I used to use mass LD a lot. But as I grew as a player and deckbuilder I learned the errors of my ways. These days I rely on Winter orb and Stasis locks.
You can always just ramp harder. Interactive, no, but people also play craps and cat's cradle.
And this, I feel like, is a major problem, when the game becomes "who can ramp harder" because then it is either Play G or spend bookoo money on artifact ramp.
And oddly, I rarely see get upset about creature tutors beside tooth and nail... but that is a whole different issue.
*beaucoup.
What artifact ramp is really all that expensive? mana crypt, sure, but past that I feel like most of it is fairly cheap.
I don't think mass LD is really comparable to creature wipes, simply because rebuilding lands is so much slower. Even "playing around" a land wipe by holding lands, you'll still almost certainly lose to a land wipe if someone does it with a big board, because they'll kill you before you have a chance to get enough mana out to do anything. It's definitely not a reasonable solution to ramp, since ramp will frequently have the biggest, scariest stuff on the table and thus make a land wipe inadvisable.
It's part of the game, just like all the other broken stuff that can happen in commander. Especially if I'm playing against competitive decks I expect that sort of thing to happen (and I've definitely been known to run some too - I even own a ravages of war). If it's a fairly casual game, though, I'd be annoyed at someone busting out mass LD, just like I'd be annoyed at someone busting out other high-powered stuff in a low-powered game. Like everything else, it's a matter of expectations.
If you want a solution to ramp, I'd say the preferable solution is just to deny their most dangerous threats with efficient removal. Decks that ramp a lot will have lower threat density to account for their ramp spells. Once the rest of the table is up to 6+ mana, their mana is less valuable and the ramp spells are fairly worthless. This is why commanders like MW annoy me the most, exhausting them of threats is almost impossible.
Like anything else, if played randomly or with zero intent of winning the game, it can ruin games.
Wanna destroy the lands to establish a checkmate? Good play! High five! Play it just to be cute? Please go find another table.
That said I have also played MLD in my decks, though it was for a lock or for a win. Sliver Hivelord was a win con as I had indest slivers, i would Jokulhaups and then full swing. As for Arcum Dagsson, it was a lock (thoug mainly a win con), The Disk lock is evil, and i had no problem using it to win.
In fact my deck that I am currently working on, will use armageddon
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
MLD used for the LOLs: You're an idiot, and I'm attacking you as soon as I can recover, and every subsequent game we play.
I don't play any mass land destruction currently, though I do have a Winter Orb in my Merieke deck and a Hokori, Dust Drinker in my Asmira deck.
I've been wanting to make a deck that uses Wildfire for a while, but I can't think of one that works for me at the moment. (I'm too attached to my current decks to tear one apart for a deck using Wildfire.)
I'll include a copy of Armageddon if I build Tymna the Weaver & Ravos, Soultender.
The point still stands. You combat ramp decks by taxing their ramp. MLD may work a few times if it's a new strategy, but if your ramp playing friends are decent at magic they will adapt and you will find they recover faster at the cost of only a small slowdown in their gameplan.
"Be silent, thou accursed wolf;
Consume within thyself with thine own rage."
-Dante's Inferno (Canto VII)
Its a lot more about starting over than losing. Being an hour in with resources and a gameplan, and now everyone is back to 0? Pass on that
I have two edh decks which include Armageddon strategies and I play them when I think they'll help me win
BRGWTana and TymnaBRGW
RTeneb, the EternalR
UBRNekusar, Mind RazerUBR
Rakdos, Lord of Riots
BGWGhave, Guru of SporesBGW
Aurelia, the Warleader
BDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefB
WBROros, the AvengerWBR
Agreed. Usually it's a temporary fix and the taxes are what really kill those decks. Zo-zu the Punisher and Manabarbs have done work in my Nekusar deck at shutting those strats down.
As someone who does have a Zo-Zu punisher deck (and a Mogis Punisher with Zo-Zu in it), the deck does run MLD. Alot. Since most of the deck is about 3-4 cost, I run on artifacts and MLD and let Zo-Zu do the work again. But MLD os still necessary for him to do his thing (turns out that R lacks many answers to dudes on boards)
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
MLD is a strategy that a lot of players just don't plan for, but could if they wanted to. Using alternate mana sources, Crucible of Worlds, and lands like Darksteel Citadel, Oboro, Palace in the Clouds and Flagstones of Trokair can mitigate or discourage MLD from having its intended effect.
One of the reasons I love EDH is that it allows people to employ strategies that have been discouraged or removed from Magic entirely in Magic's most common constructed formats. Erhnam-geddon used to be THE deck a long time ago and no one found it to be anti-social, they just had to accept its presence and figure out how to beat it. Though when people start maindecking Equinox, you may have gone too far.
EDH: Grand Arbiter $tax, Freyalise Stompy, Mimeoplasm Death From the Grave
Long answer: The reality is, you need to diversify your mana sources. That means I should be able to hate out your mana rocks with Bane of Progress, your mana dorks with Pestilence, your mana walkers with Æther Snap...and your ramp spells with Armageddon. And you should be able to do the same with me. (And the usual kvetch about how Commander players really need to start looking at mana costs.)
On phasing:
This is how I've always seen it. I'm glad to see someone else who understands this.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
I have made my opinion on it clear in the past.
When you MLD you are preventing any player from casting spells not just the one that was ramping, now its all who draws lands form the top of thier deck for the rest of the game.
You are playing a nuke when a knife would do. Is the player ramping the problem? or is the fact anyone is playing spells that is the problem? Furthermore if its in your deck you will use it, and you will use it at the wrong time. In spite to stop someone from wining even if you have no path to victory its just going to perlong the game, a game no one wants to play any more.
I get that in the other thread I said that people just have to get used to playing against wrath of god but there is a diference between that and bane of progress, and Armageddon..... you can only play one land a turn. You can't just recover your lands in a couple of turns, you have to play land go back up to 6 mana before you can cast anything. And guess who will recover faster... thats right the ramp player.
MLD = no fun for anyone and I don't want to play against it. I don't normally play ramp either, my decks have low curves (2.5 ish) and the times it has been used against me, I have a high win rate. I still hate it.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
if you're playing with people who's decks consist of nothing but 2 card infinites, protection/removal and ramp/draw/dig, by all means blow them out. If you're playing in a meta with no infinites and mostly casual themed decks, please GTFO.
Two cents from my meta... you've got plenty of other formats to be hyper-competitive and be all about winning. EDH is about fun in our LGS and it is a fact that the funnest games come when everyone's decks are firing. EDH isn't just about my deck being better than yours or precisely tuned, it's about seeing everyone's crazy decks and some janky cards not seen elsewhere. Let negotiation keep the lead player in check. MLD just makes everyone unable to play, completely stupid, thanks for wasting my Thursday night. We don't ban anything, but play MLD and just try to sit at the main table again, everyone will get up and move to a different table. If you have a legitimate LD strategy, maybe everyone doesn't ostracize you.
No different than the rest of life, everyone can be an ********, but some people actually know it and some people actually care.
If you can hard-cast something like decree of annihilation and have enough mana to cast your commander from the command zone, or if you have a threatening planeswalker still out, that is almost always gg. Narset decks usually win with their cataclysm/razia's purification.
What I don't like is the random Armageddon in a deck not equipped to actually use it effectively, and a salty opponent casts it because they are about to die. That is some obnoxious crap, and IMO is the main reason MLD has such a bad reputation.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
I had a scenario similar to this the other night.
I had been eliminated, so 3 players remained. 2 of the players had budget mana-based, basics and CIPT lands like Frontier Biouvac. Anyway, the player that eliminated me was playing Mardu goodstuff, and was the farthest ahead at that point.(turn 4 reanimated an Avacyn, Angel of Hope and Ashen Rider). Turn 9, he 'geddons, and proceeds to solitaire into a win. I told him he the other players should give him a swift kick in the nads, and he just laughed and said we were salty, and that he's great and blah, blah, blah. He had the game, no need for it. This happens far to often with players who run it. It kills causal games more often than not. So, yeah, I'm not a fan.
EDH: UGEdric
Pauper: UR Delver
Modern: UGR Delver
Draft my cube: Eric's 390 Unpowered
What artifact ramp is really all that expensive? mana crypt, sure, but past that I feel like most of it is fairly cheap.
I don't think mass LD is really comparable to creature wipes, simply because rebuilding lands is so much slower. Even "playing around" a land wipe by holding lands, you'll still almost certainly lose to a land wipe if someone does it with a big board, because they'll kill you before you have a chance to get enough mana out to do anything. It's definitely not a reasonable solution to ramp, since ramp will frequently have the biggest, scariest stuff on the table and thus make a land wipe inadvisable.
It's part of the game, just like all the other broken stuff that can happen in commander. Especially if I'm playing against competitive decks I expect that sort of thing to happen (and I've definitely been known to run some too - I even own a ravages of war). If it's a fairly casual game, though, I'd be annoyed at someone busting out mass LD, just like I'd be annoyed at someone busting out other high-powered stuff in a low-powered game. Like everything else, it's a matter of expectations.
If you want a solution to ramp, I'd say the preferable solution is just to deny their most dangerous threats with efficient removal. Decks that ramp a lot will have lower threat density to account for their ramp spells. Once the rest of the table is up to 6+ mana, their mana is less valuable and the ramp spells are fairly worthless. This is why commanders like MW annoy me the most, exhausting them of threats is almost impossible.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6