Boring is highly subjective. If I am bored of some style of deck, I might play some beatdown. Boros is there for me. And if I'm bored of beatdown, I will probably play something other than Boros. Those colors are there for me. If I am bored of playing beatdown as Boros, sounds like a first world problem.
The Izzet example, Kraum is decent for beatdown, but he's still behind what a real combat oriented guild like Boros would offer. But if you want to play beatdown as Izzet, the options were pretty bad up to the point of Shu Yun. You had to beat down with Niv-Mizzet. Same thing with Boros and generals that make some CA. If you want CA out of these colors, you have to play something like Depala, Munda, or Alesha. Yes, they are worse than Nin, the Pain Artist at CA. So is everything else. But that is Izzet, and this is Boros.
For no color combination other than Boros do people gripe this much that it doesn't do enough things outside its color identity.
I'm not asking (nor should anyone be asking) for boros to do things outside of its color identity. (Nor is Kraum - red totally gets large hasty flyers, and blue gets big flyers.) I'm not asking for nin to exist as boros - that WOULD be a break of the color pie. But there are tons of great, cool things that are totally in boros colors that AREN'T just beating down.
Whether or not beating down is boring is irrelevant to my point. Say we flipped this argument, and I was hoping for a "fun" golgari commander because I don't like, say, recursion (not true, recursion is de bezt). Well, guess what? There are a ton of really powerful commanders that do tons of other things in those colors. Sure, golgari is the king of recursion, and they should have plenty of recursion commanders regardless of whether people find it boring or not, just like boros and beatdown. But they should also have some selection for people who don't like recursion - and they absolutely do. Boros does not.
Calling Depala, Alesha, and Munda CA generals is just...embarrassing. Alesha isn't even boros. Munda isn't even CA. Depala is technically boros and technically CA, but she's so pidgeonholed into card types that are utterly unplayable in commander that no reasonable person could argue that she's a reasonable commander. If they were, she'd be fine. Great, even.
Comparing Depala being "bad boros CA" with Kraum being "bad izzet beatdown" is ridiculous. Kraum is arguably better as a voltron than almost any boros commander - frankly the only one I'd prefer is probably Aurelia - and that's ignoring the CA. Meanwhile comparing Depala to nin is like comparing a snail to a racehorse. And the snail's pre-race food is salt.
I'm not even asking for CA necessarily - just anything WITHIN RW's color pie that isn't "deal damage to player" and doesn't SUCK.
Except, sucking at EDH is part of the Boros color identity. Just like most of the time Golgari isn't recursion, it's +1/+1 counters. When Boros isn't about beating down, it's about sucking (read, really bad tribes and odd color bleeds like Brion Stoutarm).
Or, it's about stuff like Gisela and Avacyn 2.0, which are arguably not about beatdown and arguably don't suck.
As said aplenty, Boros just needs... well, something besides beating face. The two colors can do interesting things (a chunk of non-legendary RW cards are actually pretty interesting IMO), but the legendaries tend to be pretty 'blunt object brigade'.
Cards that have effects that I think would be interesting to have on a body as some kind of variant(activated ability, etb, even on attack, whatever):
Assemble the Legion (experience counters, or counters on the creature, kind of 'the longer this stays, the more danger you're in') Goblin Trenches (interestingly, Boros somehow does not have a token generator general either) Powerstone Minefield (making combat dangerous to everyone) Searing Meditation (pretty please?) Arrows of Justice (damage to attacking/blocking creatures is a thing they do, yes?) Balefire Liege (casting spells to Lightning Helix?) Boros Battleshaper/Master Warcraft (being the best at combat, aye?) Captain's Maneuver (redirecting damage? no?) Intimidation Bolt (defensive general could be nice too) Boros Reckoner (seriously, so many things you could do with damage that isn't just red zone) Moonhold (okay, let's be fair, they'd never do this on a stick) Thundersong Trumpeter (oddly enough, another pretty frequent RW ability that's not seen yet - deciding who can or can't attack or block)
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Give Bruce Tarl's flavor, I was amazingly disappointed they didn't give him a "target creature must attack this turn" type ability, to represent insulting enemy creatures into combat. Actually, that stapled to a propaganda effect would be an interesting combination of a red thing and a white thing.
Except, sucking at EDH is part of the Boros color identity. Just like most of the time Golgari isn't recursion, it's +1/+1 counters. When Boros isn't about beating down, it's about sucking (read, really bad tribes and odd color bleeds like Brion Stoutarm).
Or, it's about stuff like Gisela and Avacyn 2.0, which are arguably not about beatdown and arguably don't suck.
Your first part might actually be true, sadly.
Avacyn does suck. I mean, she's not tobias andrion bad or anything, but she's pretty awful even in 75% commander. 3 damage leaves a ton of stuff standing, both of her abilities are really easy to play around when they're in the command zone, her abilities are at odds with each other (indestructible trigger works best with a big team, damaging everything works best without one). She's pretty decent at beatdown...but that's not what we're interested in. That said, she's in that so-close-but-not-quite league where, if she scaled a little better for commander, she could have been great.
Gisela is beatdown AND sucks. Sure, she synergizes with noncombat damage, but that's not what she's doing 95% of the time. Considering she's a 7-drop in colors that suck at ramp (which, admittedly, is a personal reason why I dislike her and have no interest in playing her, and a not-personal reason why she sucks), you need to be getting benefit from her immediately the turn you play her. And the best way to do that? You guessed it, beating face.
I mean, you can pick out a lot of the beatdown commanders and find some side-synergy they've got - Aurelia and attack/damage triggers, ditto for the double strikers, Tajic and board wipes, Iroas with instant-speed damage wipes, etc etc - but realistically their primary function is going to be beating down. You can try to build to focus around that synergy, but it's going to suck, and probably turn into beatdown anyway.
Of course not all boros beatdown commanders are as vanilla as Anya, but they're all vanilla - maybe french vanilla, or vanilla bean, or vanilla with sprinkles, but they're all vanilla nonetheless.
My first tournament I played was when Ravnica was released and I played a RW control deck. I long for a Boros control deck, and would be all about a commander that had some implementation of Searing Meditation. That would be a fun deck to try and build.
Tbh, I get really tired of most Orzhov commanders being about tokens or sacrificing creatures. I think this year's Orzhov's commanders have showcased very well how you can stay within the color pie but be unique/different and still playable. Ive kicked around the idea of using both Orzhov partners as commanders for a different take on . I just wish Boros would get the same treatment.
Avacyn is OK because you can build it as monowhite. It's probably the best Boros commander because you don't have to play Boros.
...you don't have to play boros with any boros commander.
the point here is that we want to be playing both red and white spells, not just white, not just red, and at the same time we also want something that isn't entirely about attack attack attack attack attack attack lose to a board wipe
I think the problem isn't actually with the "power-level" of the commanders.
IMO, the problem lies within the format's rules. if the rules would change the starting life total to 30 for instance, control and combo would weaken (less cushion) and aggro would become stronger (and as such, boros)
That's why, more or less, boros will always be low-tier.
Disagree. Lowering the life total will make agro more potent, but it'll be green fat and blue evasion strategies that will benefit the most. Red, white, and especially boros will still be at the bottom end.
See, part of my issue is that other colors CAN do multiple things. Rakdos is arguably better than Boros at the aggro plan, but it can also play pseudo ramp (Rakdos Eldrazi), control (Rakdos Stax/Punisher), And combo. Simic can play as draw go (Rashmi), aggro (Ezuri/Edric), super voltron (Kaseto), or combo. Orzhov can be enchantress (Daxos), combo, control, voltron, aggro, or Midrange-y.Gruul can play combo (Thromok), aggro, control (Ruric Thar), ramp, ect...
The only 2 colors that are not very diverse is Dimir (sadly like 90% of the guild is about mill) and Izzet... and they get love for at least being good at the thing and not having much overlap. Spellslinging is a Izzet thing. No one else does it like Izzet. Mill is a Dimir thing. NO ONE can mill like Dimir. Everyone else CAN combat. Combat is not a Boros thing. It is not the pure domain of Boros....
So it would be nice to see SOMETHING different for Boros...
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
See, part of my issue is that other colors CAN do multiple things. Rakdos is arguably better than Boros at the aggro plan, but it can also play pseudo ramp (Rakdos Eldrazi), control (Rakdos Stax/Punisher), And combo. Simic can play as draw go (Rashmi), aggro (Ezuri/Edric), super voltron (Kaseto), or combo. Orzhov can be enchantress (Daxos), combo, control, voltron, aggro, or Midrange-y.Gruul can play combo (Thromok), aggro, control (Ruric Thar), ramp, ect...
The only 2 colors that are not very diverse is Dimir (sadly like 90% of the guild is about mill) and Izzet... and they get love for at least being good at the thing and not having much overlap. Spellslinging is a Izzet thing. No one else does it like Izzet. Mill is a Dimir thing. NO ONE can mill like Dimir. Everyone else CAN combat. Combat is not a Boros thing. It is not the pure domain of Boros....
So it would be nice to see SOMETHING different for Boros...
Where did this whole "dimir is all mill" thing come from? Only 4 dimir commanders (out of at least 24) are mill. Some have light synergy with mill? Plenty have no synergy with mill at all.
Ditto for UR spellslinging. A whopping total of 2 (of 12) incentivize instants and sorceries.
Comparing other colors being 1-dimensional in their commander selection, compared to boros, is crazy. No other 1-3 color combo is even CLOSE to as limited in their strategies when it comes to commanders.
As folks are posting their ideas of a different Boros commander, I'll piggyback off my comment on the first page and provide one, too.
1RW
<name>
Dwarf Warrior
Indestructible, First Strike
For each card that enters the graveyard from play, draw a card.
"Quote about finding treasures when mining."
2/1
Passive card advantage for playgroups full of fetches; build-around with your own land-sacrifing options; MLD=dangerous card draw. Can chump block for days and supports 2 lesser tribes.
Cheers!
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Tajic is a pretty fun "go wide and still try to win with commander damage" commander. It applies pressure both vertically and horizontally. Not competitive, but fun.
I think the problem isn't actually with the "power-level" of the commanders.
IMO, the problem lies within the format's rules. if the rules would change the starting life total to 30 for instance, control and combo would weaken (less cushion) and aggro would become stronger (and as such, boros)
That's why, more or less, boros will always be low-tier.
Banning some of the fast mana (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt) and fast tutors would probably also help.
Disagree. Lowering the life total will make agro more potent, but it'll be green fat and blue evasion strategies that will benefit the most. Red, white, and especially boros will still be at the bottom end.
I don't see how "blue and green evasion strategies" getting stronger would keep boros low tier.
What it does, is make the general idea of "doing damage" stronger. And whether that improves certain edric decks, at the same time it improves aggro variants, boros colors and more. It shifts the balance quite a bit out off the favor of control and combo, which are argueably the only archetypes that have a chance in EDH right now.
You know, a legendary Tamanoa in Boros colours would totally fit in their colour pie.
What I don't understand is how we can have all these ideas for Boros things that don't involve attacking or equipment (lifegain! stax! damage redirection!), but Wizards just phones in the same old design every time?
I'm also tired of hearing "drawing cards/CA is not in Boros colours". The Gitrog Monster is non-blue, yet it draws cards. Tymna the Weaver is non-blue and non-green, yet it draws cards. Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is green and draws cards. Grenzo, Dungeon Warden is non-blue, non-green and gives you CA.
Sometimes drawing cards is used as a "reward", right? It depends on what (colour-specific) hoops you need to jump through to earn that reward.
Boros is fine, if you don't expect it be like the other colours. I used Iroas until recently when I changed to new Avacyn as a form of combo protection rather than a general, although she is strong enough to allow some beats.
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Weiss Schwarz Sets
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Boros is fine, if you don't expect it be like the other colours. I used Iroas until recently when I changed to new Avacyn as a form of combo protection rather than a general, although she is strong enough to allow some beats.
The problem is that Boros COMMANDERS don't support any other strategy beyond attacking. Almost every other color has generals for multiple play styles. Boros either combat, equip combat, fling, or ignoring your general all together.
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This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
White and red suffer from early decisions made about the color pie and the way normal 1 v 1 works.
Because white has the most answers to problems, it has the worst CA and card selection.
Red's agression and damage dealing power simply aren't as effectively in a multiplayer format where people start at 40 life and it's also generally poor at CA.
In most formats this isn't a big deal as you can mix colors freely, but with color identity, mono white, mono white and Boros commanders suffer. And due to the average length of EDH games card advantage is MUCH more important.
WotC is aware of this and attempting to fix it, hence red's impulsive card draw which is a nice step. It seems they haven't found a CA ability as clean that feels "white" - it can draw cards based off playing small creatures but that is limited. Commanders like Depala are an attempt to give Boros much needed CA - may not be that strong now, but she'll only get better as more dwarves and vehicles are printed (possibly much stronger).
This does not explain the other oft-mentioned problem, the seeming sameness of most Boros commanders. This seems odd, as many people have listed quite a few red and white cards with interesting effects that could go on a legendary creature but they still mostly print the same attack focused commanders. I would suggest that the people who came up with these good ideas see if they can get them in front of Rosewater's eyes (as he is the most readily available route to the hivemind at R&D).
I am confused by much of WotC's behavior about legendary creatures (and other things) - they seem to want and try to listen (and have incentive to do so) but things like the werewolf legend and Ludevic baffle me. Rosewater's explanation for the werewolf being them misunderstanding and thinking the fans just wanted the cycle complete and not something for EDH seems ludicrous - he wasn't as involved with Ludevic and the explanation there makes somewhat more sense especially when you read creative's take on Ludevic. I know they have a lot of niche fan groups to appease but I would think they would be better (especially with EDH given its popularity).
They are trying to improve and experimenting, but unfortunately they work several years ahead so we may not see the results of their attempts to solve these problems for a long time. So any of your ideas they read now and like (hopefully they have people reading these forums) may take more than 2 years to materialize - but they may happen. I suspect it may take a while for white and red to get significantly better in EDH but I have more hope for more interesting Boros commanders in the near future.
I would like a Boros commander that generates mana based on creatures on the field. Red has long had short term,mana creation. Heck, if you're worried about shenanigans, make it a tap ability that is also tribal based (Maybe soldiers?)
Sacrificing things is also in red and white, so maybe sacking creatures for mana?
They could make a Boros commander that poops out equipment tokens
They could make a Boros commander that has defender and buffs defenders, as Boros has had a light defender subtheme for years now
They could make a Boros commander that turns lifegain into burn
They could make a Boros commander that turns non combat damage into lifegain
They could make a Boros commander that taps to do damage/gain life
They could make a Boros commander that has red's impulse draw effect
They could make a Boros commander that has a boardwipe stapled to it
They could make a Boros Commander that taxes attacks and blocks
There are options beyond simple beatdown
Of course, Gisela does a solid job helming a burn deck.
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Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
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You know, a legendary Tamanoa in Boros colours would totally fit in their colour pie.
What I don't understand is how we can have all these ideas for Boros things that don't involve attacking or equipment (lifegain! stax! damage redirection!), but Wizards just phones in the same old design every time?
Another one I can think of (and it fits with the existing Boros Aggro plan) is Exquisite Blood. (Of course, it's basically "All sources of damage you control have lifelink.", but still...)
I'm also tired of hearing "drawing cards/CA is not in Boros colours". The Gitrog Monster is non-blue, yet it draws cards. Tymna the Weaver is non-blue and non-green, yet it draws cards. Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is green and draws cards. Grenzo, Dungeon Warden is non-blue, non-green and gives you CA.
Sometimes drawing cards is used as a "reward", right? It depends on what (colour-specific) hoops you need to jump through to earn that reward.
It's not about "card draw is blue" anymore than the fact that green and white both destroy enchantments means black or red can. In simple terms, each color has how they're supposed to.
White, to be candid, white should be last in card draw, since it's the color of willful blindness. But it should have something, I guess; the difficulty is what white should do. It's sort of like how it was hard to figure out green and blue removal, or green evasion.
Note that red and white can get card advantage in other ways (boardwipes, mass token generation, removal that targets more than one permanent). Hell, red has its own Living Death.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
Whether or not beating down is boring is irrelevant to my point. Say we flipped this argument, and I was hoping for a "fun" golgari commander because I don't like, say, recursion (not true, recursion is de bezt). Well, guess what? There are a ton of really powerful commanders that do tons of other things in those colors. Sure, golgari is the king of recursion, and they should have plenty of recursion commanders regardless of whether people find it boring or not, just like boros and beatdown. But they should also have some selection for people who don't like recursion - and they absolutely do. Boros does not.
Calling Depala, Alesha, and Munda CA generals is just...embarrassing. Alesha isn't even boros. Munda isn't even CA. Depala is technically boros and technically CA, but she's so pidgeonholed into card types that are utterly unplayable in commander that no reasonable person could argue that she's a reasonable commander. If they were, she'd be fine. Great, even.
Comparing Depala being "bad boros CA" with Kraum being "bad izzet beatdown" is ridiculous. Kraum is arguably better as a voltron than almost any boros commander - frankly the only one I'd prefer is probably Aurelia - and that's ignoring the CA. Meanwhile comparing Depala to nin is like comparing a snail to a racehorse. And the snail's pre-race food is salt.
I'm not even asking for CA necessarily - just anything WITHIN RW's color pie that isn't "deal damage to player" and doesn't SUCK.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Or, it's about stuff like Gisela and Avacyn 2.0, which are arguably not about beatdown and arguably don't suck.
Cards that have effects that I think would be interesting to have on a body as some kind of variant(activated ability, etb, even on attack, whatever):
Assemble the Legion (experience counters, or counters on the creature, kind of 'the longer this stays, the more danger you're in')
Goblin Trenches (interestingly, Boros somehow does not have a token generator general either)
Powerstone Minefield (making combat dangerous to everyone)
Searing Meditation (pretty please?)
Arrows of Justice (damage to attacking/blocking creatures is a thing they do, yes?)
Balefire Liege (casting spells to Lightning Helix?)
Boros Battleshaper/Master Warcraft (being the best at combat, aye?)
Captain's Maneuver (redirecting damage? no?)
Intimidation Bolt (defensive general could be nice too)
Boros Reckoner (seriously, so many things you could do with damage that isn't just red zone)
Moonhold (okay, let's be fair, they'd never do this on a stick)
Thundersong Trumpeter (oddly enough, another pretty frequent RW ability that's not seen yet - deciding who can or can't attack or block)
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Avacyn does suck. I mean, she's not tobias andrion bad or anything, but she's pretty awful even in 75% commander. 3 damage leaves a ton of stuff standing, both of her abilities are really easy to play around when they're in the command zone, her abilities are at odds with each other (indestructible trigger works best with a big team, damaging everything works best without one). She's pretty decent at beatdown...but that's not what we're interested in. That said, she's in that so-close-but-not-quite league where, if she scaled a little better for commander, she could have been great.
Gisela is beatdown AND sucks. Sure, she synergizes with noncombat damage, but that's not what she's doing 95% of the time. Considering she's a 7-drop in colors that suck at ramp (which, admittedly, is a personal reason why I dislike her and have no interest in playing her, and a not-personal reason why she sucks), you need to be getting benefit from her immediately the turn you play her. And the best way to do that? You guessed it, beating face.
I mean, you can pick out a lot of the beatdown commanders and find some side-synergy they've got - Aurelia and attack/damage triggers, ditto for the double strikers, Tajic and board wipes, Iroas with instant-speed damage wipes, etc etc - but realistically their primary function is going to be beating down. You can try to build to focus around that synergy, but it's going to suck, and probably turn into beatdown anyway.
Of course not all boros beatdown commanders are as vanilla as Anya, but they're all vanilla - maybe french vanilla, or vanilla bean, or vanilla with sprinkles, but they're all vanilla nonetheless.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
My first tournament I played was when Ravnica was released and I played a RW control deck. I long for a Boros control deck, and would be all about a commander that had some implementation of Searing Meditation. That would be a fun deck to try and build.
Tbh, I get really tired of most Orzhov commanders being about tokens or sacrificing creatures. I think this year's Orzhov's commanders have showcased very well how you can stay within the color pie but be unique/different and still playable. Ive kicked around the idea of using both Orzhov partners as commanders for a different take on . I just wish Boros would get the same treatment.
The Mimeoplasm || Karador, Ghost Chieftain
Prossh, Skyraider of Kher || Vial Smasher/Tymna Group Slug
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief || Talrand, Sky Summoner
Yidris - Unblockable Saboteurs || Kiki-Jiki, ETB breaker
Kess, Dissident Mage
...you don't have to play boros with any boros commander.
the point here is that we want to be playing both red and white spells, not just white, not just red, and at the same time we also want something that isn't entirely about attack attack attack attack attack attack lose to a board wipe
Disagree. Lowering the life total will make agro more potent, but it'll be green fat and blue evasion strategies that will benefit the most. Red, white, and especially boros will still be at the bottom end.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
The only 2 colors that are not very diverse is Dimir (sadly like 90% of the guild is about mill) and Izzet... and they get love for at least being good at the thing and not having much overlap. Spellslinging is a Izzet thing. No one else does it like Izzet. Mill is a Dimir thing. NO ONE can mill like Dimir. Everyone else CAN combat. Combat is not a Boros thing. It is not the pure domain of Boros....
So it would be nice to see SOMETHING different for Boros...
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Ditto for UR spellslinging. A whopping total of 2 (of 12) incentivize instants and sorceries.
Comparing other colors being 1-dimensional in their commander selection, compared to boros, is crazy. No other 1-3 color combo is even CLOSE to as limited in their strategies when it comes to commanders.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
1RW
<name>
Dwarf Warrior
Indestructible, First Strike
For each card that enters the graveyard from play, draw a card.
"Quote about finding treasures when mining."
2/1
Passive card advantage for playgroups full of fetches; build-around with your own land-sacrifing options; MLD=dangerous card draw. Can chump block for days and supports 2 lesser tribes.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
Banning some of the fast mana (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt) and fast tutors would probably also help.
I don't see how "blue and green evasion strategies" getting stronger would keep boros low tier.
What it does, is make the general idea of "doing damage" stronger. And whether that improves certain edric decks, at the same time it improves aggro variants, boros colors and more. It shifts the balance quite a bit out off the favor of control and combo, which are argueably the only archetypes that have a chance in EDH right now.
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
What I don't understand is how we can have all these ideas for Boros things that don't involve attacking or equipment (lifegain! stax! damage redirection!), but Wizards just phones in the same old design every time?
I'm also tired of hearing "drawing cards/CA is not in Boros colours".
The Gitrog Monster is non-blue, yet it draws cards. Tymna the Weaver is non-blue and non-green, yet it draws cards. Selvala, Heart of the Wilds is green and draws cards. Grenzo, Dungeon Warden is non-blue, non-green and gives you CA.
Sometimes drawing cards is used as a "reward", right? It depends on what (colour-specific) hoops you need to jump through to earn that reward.
Retired: WUEphara, God of the PolisWU blink | WGerrard CapashenW lifegain | WUB Ertai, the CorruptedWUB combo | WAvacyn, Angel of HopeW
mono-white controlangel tribalPauper: UBDimirKittyUB | RBG Deathcycle RBG
Modern: GWUEnchantressGWU | GWUTurbofogGWU
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
If you want to win with Boros just go combo, you have more pieces of Kiki Twin than blue (Midnight Guard, Restoration Angel, Village Bell-Ringer), good enchantment searching and you will always be the underdog so focused less. This won't stop Helm of Obedience/Rest in Peace being used either, which you have good access to comparatively or a combo I like, Hero of Bladehold/Hanweir Garrison and Breath of Fury.
Main Decks
Diaochan, Iroas, God of Victory, Kaalia, Marton, Ulasht, Volrath,
Kaervek, Prossh, Titania
Amusing or Themed
Progenitus
Pauper Guildmages
Azorius Boros Dimir Golgari Gruul Izzet Korozda
Orzhov Rakdos Rix Maadi Selesyna Simic Skarrg Zameck
I also play Weiss Schwarz, Chaos, Vanguard and Wixoss.
Accel World, Angel Beats, Familiar of Zero, Gargantia on the Verdurous Planet, Guilty Crown, Kill La Kill, Robotics;Notes, Sword Art Online.
Chaos Partners
Arpeggio of Blue Steel: Iona, Kirishima, Kongou.
Dangan Ronpa: Asahina, Togami.
Freezing: Vibration: Chiffon, Satelizer.
Vanguard Clans Favoured
Angel Feather, Dark Irregulars, Genesis, Neonecter, Pale Moon, Shadow Paladins, Tachikaze.
Wixoss - Just trial decks for now!
The problem is that Boros COMMANDERS don't support any other strategy beyond attacking. Almost every other color has generals for multiple play styles. Boros either combat, equip combat, fling, or ignoring your general all together.
This aint your girlfriends meta! This is a man's meta! TURBO META.
Because white has the most answers to problems, it has the worst CA and card selection.
Red's agression and damage dealing power simply aren't as effectively in a multiplayer format where people start at 40 life and it's also generally poor at CA.
In most formats this isn't a big deal as you can mix colors freely, but with color identity, mono white, mono white and Boros commanders suffer. And due to the average length of EDH games card advantage is MUCH more important.
WotC is aware of this and attempting to fix it, hence red's impulsive card draw which is a nice step. It seems they haven't found a CA ability as clean that feels "white" - it can draw cards based off playing small creatures but that is limited. Commanders like Depala are an attempt to give Boros much needed CA - may not be that strong now, but she'll only get better as more dwarves and vehicles are printed (possibly much stronger).
This does not explain the other oft-mentioned problem, the seeming sameness of most Boros commanders. This seems odd, as many people have listed quite a few red and white cards with interesting effects that could go on a legendary creature but they still mostly print the same attack focused commanders. I would suggest that the people who came up with these good ideas see if they can get them in front of Rosewater's eyes (as he is the most readily available route to the hivemind at R&D).
I am confused by much of WotC's behavior about legendary creatures (and other things) - they seem to want and try to listen (and have incentive to do so) but things like the werewolf legend and Ludevic baffle me. Rosewater's explanation for the werewolf being them misunderstanding and thinking the fans just wanted the cycle complete and not something for EDH seems ludicrous - he wasn't as involved with Ludevic and the explanation there makes somewhat more sense especially when you read creative's take on Ludevic. I know they have a lot of niche fan groups to appease but I would think they would be better (especially with EDH given its popularity).
They are trying to improve and experimenting, but unfortunately they work several years ahead so we may not see the results of their attempts to solve these problems for a long time. So any of your ideas they read now and like (hopefully they have people reading these forums) may take more than 2 years to materialize - but they may happen. I suspect it may take a while for white and red to get significantly better in EDH but I have more hope for more interesting Boros commanders in the near future.
Sacrificing things is also in red and white, so maybe sacking creatures for mana?
Club Flamingo Wins: 1!
They could make a Boros commander
They could make a Boros commander that poops out equipment tokens
They could make a Boros commander that has defender and buffs defenders, as Boros has had a light defender subtheme for years now
They could make a Boros commander that turns lifegain into burn
They could make a Boros commander that turns non combat damage into lifegain
They could make a Boros commander that taps to do damage/gain life
They could make a Boros commander that has red's impulse draw effect
They could make a Boros commander that has a boardwipe stapled to it
They could make a Boros Commander that taxes attacks and blocks
There are options beyond simple beatdown
Of course, Gisela does a solid job helming a burn deck.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Another one I can think of (and it fits with the existing Boros Aggro plan) is Exquisite Blood. (Of course, it's basically "All sources of damage you control have lifelink.", but still...)
It's not about "card draw is blue" anymore than the fact that green and white both destroy enchantments means black or red can. In simple terms, each color has how they're supposed to.
Green's card draw is supposed to deal with enchantments, creatures, lands, and other things green likes (e.g., Viridian Revel works because green hates artifacts). It gets complicated, because (e.g.) Azami, Lady of Scrolls can be colorshifted to green, while Collective Unconscious can be colorshifted to blue. So, there's your Selvala, card advantage related to creatures.
Black's card draw is about trading resources, or benefiting when something dies. (Coincidentally, The Gitrog Monster is both those colors.)
Red gets some card draw too, of course. But it's impulse drawing. (Red can also do temporary reanimator and temporary clones.) or the "discard then draw" variety. Red even gets sui generis cards like Aggressive Mining and Humble Defector.
White, to be candid, white should be last in card draw, since it's the color of willful blindness. But it should have something, I guess; the difficulty is what white should do. It's sort of like how it was hard to figure out green and blue removal, or green evasion.
Note that red and white can get card advantage in other ways (boardwipes, mass token generation, removal that targets more than one permanent). Hell, red has its own Living Death.
On phasing:
http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/152838478118/is-rd-aware-of-how-badboring-boros-commanders
Now we just have to wait 2-3 years for the sweet boros commanders to come rolling in!
Also, this is the first time Maro has answered my question, so double score.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6