So I've heard that Zur the Enchanter is one of the most powerful and oppressive generals in EDH.
I've never seen one in action, so I don't know from my own experience. I also hear a lot of negatives about esper in general so its possible I'm mixing him up, but the name rings a bell as a very groan-inducing commander.
I currently have an Esper deck with Dakkon Blackblade as the general. It's all about creatures who give me resources when they hit, are evasive, or are hexproof, combined with equipment and auras that give the other effects. The deck is ok but the general is trash, ran just because I love the art.
I recently acquired an oversized Zur alongside some other oversized cards, which I've been cutting down to normal size and painting up to get full art creatures and planeswalkers. As I did so I suddenly clued on that Zur would be a perfect general for the deck. He's a cheap body that can have equipment, and he gives resources when he attacks - pretty much the definition of my theme. But I'm wondering, would I become target #1 as soon as he hit the board? Would the deck make people groan that its just another Zur deck as soon as they see it? Or is he alright, am I mixing his reputation up with some other Esper legend?
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Zur is easily the most powerful esper general and close to the most powerful general in commander. Tutorable necropotence, rest in peace, vanishing, grasp of fate, necromancy and plenty of other great cards for free.
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Hey guys so I've actually moved on from commander on to 60 card decks so I don't have any commander decks.
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Yeah I thought it would be something like that. Only tutor targets for him in the deck are Phyrexian Arena and Underworld Connections... he'd be so perfect even just for that but don't know if its worth doing if I'll have to give some monologue about him at the start of each game
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Zur the enchanter is a great commander. He's most definitely tier 1 (amongst 10-15 other generals) and arguably top 3 in the format when built in the best possible way. So as far as powerful? He's definitely got that box checked.
As far as oppressive? Probably not tier 1 in regards to oppression. When comparing him to things like Derevi, empyrial tactician or leovold, emissary of trest, zur's level of opression pales in comparison, despite being esper (but thats mainly due to the deck styles of derevi and leovold being lockdown/prison style decks and zur being a swiss army knife with less of a focus on oppression).
Overall, Zur is a 10/10 general, however, myself personally I could never invest in making a zur deck; simply because I find it too linear. Yes, yes, some of you will say "how can a tutoring general be linear?" Its simple in that because you're always either tutoring to answer or tutoring the best wincons for the moment, getting said cards becomes a lot more stale quicker.
On a side note when VSing Zur: Zur suffers from the same weakness several of the tier 1 generals suffer in that he his susceptible to spot removal timed perfectly. 90%+ of spot removal can handle him (especially with boseiju, who shelters all ) and the time to do so is when he first lands. If you managed to mess up and let him resolve and start going (he equips vanishing and then you're usually screwed after that) a simple wipe away normally does the trick.
All this being said, do what most of us are doing right now who are thinking of making/changing our deck; wait 4 weeks for the new commander set to come out. Maybe the BUWR or BUWG generals will be amazing?
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
over powered imo. He's fine for a competitive meta, but in the casual setting, he crushes 1v1 and is a very real threat 1vMany. If Zur swings, you have a 3 turn clock to boardwipe or your out of the game. 3 turns to set up + (3 turns x # of players) = game length for Zur
We're not talking about a tuned Zur deck, but a deck deliberately 'untuned' to minimise his impact.
I essentially read his ability as draw on an attack, the tutor aspect is a very distant second consideration. Given this deck is "evasive creatures that draw when they hit", he's perfect for it. But it looks like there are hurdles in percieved power to overcome. So how would you guys go about de-emphasizing Zur's power and impact on the deck?
I've got no issue with self-limiting as a means to control his power. For example, instead of tutoring for anything, he might tutor for the closest target to the top of the deck, adding a degree of randomness that helps nullify his tutor nature. Alternatively I could just not improve his existing tutor targets - pretty much all he can get at the moment is Phyrexian Arena and Aura of Silence. Could even remove the Aura, would be an acceptible cost to help negate the perception of tutoring for a lockdown.
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EDH RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
The deck's actual power level isn't the issue, it is the perceived power level.
Do you play at your LGS with strangers and random people all the time? Then Zur will draw a lot of hate.
Do you play casually with friends? Then he might be fine, if your friends are aware of Zur's reputation then they will probably also target him first, at least for a few games until they see more of how the deck plays.
I think that aside from the generic gear up and kill you version of the deck, a lot of people tend to overestimate his value in multiplayer. When you aren't trying to ride him to victory, he's just an efficient value engine that is easily answered. At one time he was the scourge of the format, but the increase in volume and power of legendary creatures in recent printings has left him a bit outclassed. His real power lies in the fact that once active you can advance your boardstate/answer threats while still leaving mana open for more answers, and recently there have been a lot of generals that give you free value. If you are going to search for the same thing everytime to make him impossible to kill and hit for a lot of damage, then expect people to target you. If you're just swinging for one and getting a few value cards, then people won't pay him much mind. He is a bit notorious so people who aren't wise to your deck will generally have an expectation of broken things. I like to switch between him and Dromar, the Banisher for my esper deck depending on the matchups. If you do play him, I highly suggest playing Bitterblossom and a Solitary Confinement to go along with the Phyrexian Arena. If you just want evasive beats, then I'd suggest going for Dromar, the Banisher as he'll draw less hate, has a powerful effect, and is a four turn clock on his own.
I think that aside from the generic gear up and kill you version of the deck, a lot of people tend to overestimate his value in multiplayer. When you aren't trying to ride him to victory, he's just an efficient value engine that is easily answered. At one time he was the scourge of the format, but the increase in volume and power of legendary creatures in recent printings has left him a bit outclassed. His real power lies in the fact that once active you can advance your boardstate/answer threats while still leaving mana open for more answers, and recently there have been a lot of generals that give you free value. If you are going to search for the same thing everytime to make him impossible to kill and hit for a lot of damage, then expect people to target you. If you're just swinging for one and getting a few value cards, then people won't pay him much mind. He is a bit notorious so people who aren't wise to your deck will generally have an expectation of broken things. I like to switch between him and Dromar, the Banisher for my esper deck depending on the matchups. If you do play him, I highly suggest playing Bitterblossom and a Solitary Confinement to go along with the Phyrexian Arena. If you just want evasive beats, then I'd suggest going for Dromar, the Banisher as he'll draw less hate, has a powerful effect, and is a four turn clock on his own.
I can't agree with this at all. As someone who plays highly competitive EDH Zur is the absolute most terrifying general to be sitting across from. Nine times out of ten the deck will only actually have 3-5 targets to get with Zur. His true power relies in how consistent he makes your deck via tutoring. Most of the time Zur just reads as a Necropotence in your command zone. Once you have necro in play you draw up a huge portion of your library and win via some combo with counter backup.
If you're playing Zur and your intention is just to get incremental value out of him then you're playing a very fair version of Zur and not a tuned list. These types of players tend to be the 75% type. Zur should win you the game after you get your first swing in.
All that said if your intention is to play a depowered version of Zur I wouldn't advise it. His perceived power level is, rightly, astronomical. Most people see Zur at a table and they will do everything in their power to make sure you don't get to swing with him. I'm sorry but if you're not playing cEDH or at the very least a 75% version of Zur you should just play something else.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
Yeah he is strong. I hate Gaddock Teeg more, but Zur is undoubtedly a bastard. I guess if there is a gentleman's agreement whereby the player of Zur doesn't allow things to get too degenerate he can be ok, but either way, even playing an 'untuned' Zur can be tough. He puts you on a short clock as a voltron, can lock down the board ridiculously quickly, and comes out super early in the game. I still see him as a challenge, and I could probably give my wife's Zur a run for his money, but he is tough.
What gets me most is the downtime. I feel like 'come on, we all know you're picking Gift Of Immortality first, hurry it up' is probably a fairly common utterance. I pick up a deck to play, not to see someone else rifle through their cards every turn.
He had to get dismantled and retired from our play group, he was just so linear and hard to stop if got going.
I've made a deck where all the content are commons except for him being rare. It can actually be competitive against anything goes decks. He is just that strong.
I'd say my "Alpha" deck, the one I'd pick if asked to bring my most competitive would be my reanimation Zur the Enchanter deck. Narset is my strong second, Nin the Pain Artist, coming in a good third.
I've never seen one in action, so I don't know from my own experience. I also hear a lot of negatives about esper in general so its possible I'm mixing him up, but the name rings a bell as a very groan-inducing commander.
I currently have an Esper deck with Dakkon Blackblade as the general. It's all about creatures who give me resources when they hit, are evasive, or are hexproof, combined with equipment and auras that give the other effects. The deck is ok but the general is trash, ran just because I love the art.
I recently acquired an oversized Zur alongside some other oversized cards, which I've been cutting down to normal size and painting up to get full art creatures and planeswalkers. As I did so I suddenly clued on that Zur would be a perfect general for the deck. He's a cheap body that can have equipment, and he gives resources when he attacks - pretty much the definition of my theme. But I'm wondering, would I become target #1 as soon as he hit the board? Would the deck make people groan that its just another Zur deck as soon as they see it? Or is he alright, am I mixing his reputation up with some other Esper legend?
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Anyway I've started my own gameplay channel in which I play games (Magic also)
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/dies_to_doom_blade
Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/UpsidedownHandshake
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
As far as oppressive? Probably not tier 1 in regards to oppression. When comparing him to things like Derevi, empyrial tactician or leovold, emissary of trest, zur's level of opression pales in comparison, despite being esper (but thats mainly due to the deck styles of derevi and leovold being lockdown/prison style decks and zur being a swiss army knife with less of a focus on oppression).
Overall, Zur is a 10/10 general, however, myself personally I could never invest in making a zur deck; simply because I find it too linear. Yes, yes, some of you will say "how can a tutoring general be linear?" Its simple in that because you're always either tutoring to answer or tutoring the best wincons for the moment, getting said cards becomes a lot more stale quicker.
On a side note when VSing Zur: Zur suffers from the same weakness several of the tier 1 generals suffer in that he his susceptible to spot removal timed perfectly. 90%+ of spot removal can handle him (especially with boseiju, who shelters all ) and the time to do so is when he first lands. If you managed to mess up and let him resolve and start going (he equips vanishing and then you're usually screwed after that) a simple wipe away normally does the trick.
All this being said, do what most of us are doing right now who are thinking of making/changing our deck; wait 4 weeks for the new commander set to come out. Maybe the BUWR or BUWG generals will be amazing?
If you guys play often like 2-3 times a week it can get boring real fast. Because Zur tutors the same junk all the time that it's predictable.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
And now with Gift of Immortality available to him, he's even more annoying.
| B Erebos, God of VampiresB | GYeva SmashG | RBosh ArtifactsR | GURAnimar +1 BeatsGUR | RBVial's Secret Hot SauceRB | UBRNekusar, Draw if you DareUBR | RGBDarigaaz'z DragonsRGB | GBSlimeFEETGB | UBOn-Hit LazavUB | URBrudiclad's Artificer InventionsUR | GUBMuldrotha's ElementalsGUB | WUGKestia's EnchantmentsWUG | GUTatyova - Draw, Land, Go!GU | WGArahbo's EquipmentWG | BUWVarina's ZOMBIE HORDESBUW | WLyra's Angelic SalvationW | WBChurch of TeysaWB | UAzami...WizardsU
I essentially read his ability as draw on an attack, the tutor aspect is a very distant second consideration. Given this deck is "evasive creatures that draw when they hit", he's perfect for it. But it looks like there are hurdles in percieved power to overcome. So how would you guys go about de-emphasizing Zur's power and impact on the deck?
I've got no issue with self-limiting as a means to control his power. For example, instead of tutoring for anything, he might tutor for the closest target to the top of the deck, adding a degree of randomness that helps nullify his tutor nature. Alternatively I could just not improve his existing tutor targets - pretty much all he can get at the moment is Phyrexian Arena and Aura of Silence. Could even remove the Aura, would be an acceptible cost to help negate the perception of tutoring for a lockdown.
RRGrenzo plays your deck, GGYeva's mono green control, WW9-tails trys desperately for monowhite not to suck
RWBUTymna and Kraum's saboteur tribal, UWG Kestia's Enchantress Aggro, RUB Jeleva casts big dumb spells, RGB Vaevictis' big critters can kill your critters hard
Arena Standard
UUUU Tempo, since before it was cool
Various Wx decks running Fountain of Renewal and Day of Glory
Anything I can cram Chaos Wand in to
Do you play at your LGS with strangers and random people all the time? Then Zur will draw a lot of hate.
Do you play casually with friends? Then he might be fine, if your friends are aware of Zur's reputation then they will probably also target him first, at least for a few games until they see more of how the deck plays.
In search of a foil french Dromar, the Banisher, pm me if you have one you want to part with, also foil Stratadon's.
I can't agree with this at all. As someone who plays highly competitive EDH Zur is the absolute most terrifying general to be sitting across from. Nine times out of ten the deck will only actually have 3-5 targets to get with Zur. His true power relies in how consistent he makes your deck via tutoring. Most of the time Zur just reads as a Necropotence in your command zone. Once you have necro in play you draw up a huge portion of your library and win via some combo with counter backup.
If you're playing Zur and your intention is just to get incremental value out of him then you're playing a very fair version of Zur and not a tuned list. These types of players tend to be the 75% type. Zur should win you the game after you get your first swing in.
All that said if your intention is to play a depowered version of Zur I wouldn't advise it. His perceived power level is, rightly, astronomical. Most people see Zur at a table and they will do everything in their power to make sure you don't get to swing with him. I'm sorry but if you're not playing cEDH or at the very least a 75% version of Zur you should just play something else.
What gets me most is the downtime. I feel like 'come on, we all know you're picking Gift Of Immortality first, hurry it up' is probably a fairly common utterance. I pick up a deck to play, not to see someone else rifle through their cards every turn.
I've made a deck where all the content are commons except for him being rare. It can actually be competitive against anything goes decks. He is just that strong.
I'd say my "Alpha" deck, the one I'd pick if asked to bring my most competitive would be my reanimation Zur the Enchanter deck. Narset is my strong second, Nin the Pain Artist, coming in a good third.
Niv-Mizzet Reborn
Feather, the Redeemed
Estrid, the Masked
Teshar
Tymna/Ravos
Najeela, Blade-Blossom
Firesong & Sunspeaker
Zur the Enchanter
Lazav, the Multifarious
Ishai+Reyhan
Click images for decks->
-Prime Speaker Vannifar
---------------------Will & Rowan Kenrith