Let's make one thing clear here: EDH is a social format, so first and foremost the primary concern is if all participating members of a particular playgroup are enjoying the metagame. If everybody enjoys and prefers hour-long battlecruiser games with no instant-win combos or "counter or lose" cards, that's fine. If everybody enjoys cutthroat turn-four "counter or lose" combos and the expectation that everyone at the table should have counters and removal available at all times, that's also fine. One side of the spectrum is not more wrong or more right than the other; it's more about making sure everybody involved are playing the flavor of EDH they enjoy.
With that said, what has been shown to be a problem for EDH in the past (if you use the banlist as a guide) is when cards and strategies cause group harmony issues because they look like they should fit in the former category but in practice belong in the latter category. For the most part infect isn't too much of a problem with that in mind, though there are a few "oops I ruined the game" situations like the aforementioned Xenagos/Phyrexian Hydra combo.
Doing 10 infect to each player is pretty arduous when you consider that, typically, nothing is helping you get there except yourself. You are on your own if you are going to kill a player. Infect creatures, generally, are pretty bad. There are very few good infect cards, really. All in all, I don't see it being that big of a threat or all that common at 10 damage. It would be seldom seen, if ever, at 15. At 20, you're better off trying to make a good Boros deck because of how pointless that would be.
It's a minor archetype that is difficult to win with in practice. Blightsteel does a job of it, but at that point wouldn't OG Kozilek? or OG Ulamog?
I don't see it as being an "easy" win by any means, especially when most of the cards are underpowered because of how strong the mechanic is.
I also don't think a rule for it is worth anything. People that want it at 20 don't actually think it's reasonable. Even 15 to some degree. They just don't want to ever have to worry about the possibility of dying to infect ever again. You don't want that worry? You set it at 20, because it is impossible to do, even halfway reliably.
I run Triumph of the Hordes in my Omnath list. It can occasionally be a blowout, but it is a one shot overrun and if I don't kill someone with infect, I have no real way to capitalize at whatever amount of poison counters they happen to be at, at that point.
Sure, it can be annoying like Annihilator is, but so can stax, hard control, MLD, etc. I don't see a compelling reason to change the rule or anything of that nature just because a strategy can be "annoying". If anything, you either learn to declare blockers more carefully or you tell them you don't ever want to face their infect again, which I imagine these individuals are more than capable of doing.
I don't have a problem with infect, and I occasionally like being able to win with it. I do have a problem with changing rules when the individuals that have problems with it can solve it themselves. It's the same issue with cards like Serra Ascendant activating over 30 life. Or Felidar Sovereign winning at 40 or more life. Not every card was made with EDH in mind (in fact, most weren't). I think the quirky interactions you get because of EDH's different rules are a feature, not a bug.
Infect is "quadruple strike?" So it will give me four sword triggers or 8 counters on Jitte? Yeah, though so... What a ridiculous thing to say. When infect gets exaggerated, it actually does scare new and/or impressionable players.
Infect is just an aggro strategy. Games are better when people play different kinds of decks. Infect is not even close to being overpowered in EDH. It's quite difficult to win a table if infect is your only trick.
1. Infect creatures suck. Someone mentioned quadruple strike.....but did he that infect creatures are small and overcosted and completely lacking card advantage abilities or triggers.
2. An opponent maybe at 1, you still have to deal 10. No one helps you, and for some reason players already hate your guts because, well, you're the dirty "infect" player. Due to poor threat assessment, Everyone will get a free pass even though they are bigger threats.
3. Are we really complaining about pump spell + berserk or even tainted strike? You cannot be mad at an opponent playing pump spells on edh. Take a step back and reflect. Since, That's like complaining about life gain being overpowered in competitive to tournament magic. At that point, I just feel like you're a bad player who just complains rather than wanting to play and have fun.
I want to thank all of you for posting your opinions and thoughts on the subject. I shared with my groups about the different view other players had on Infect as a whole, and are now willing to give it some leeway. Thanks again for the feed back and ideas of other combos to use and watch out for
Infect is a fairly weak strategy in EDH, and I say this as someone who currently runs two infect decks, and who ran infect as my very first EDH deck.
It's a weak strategy because it is essentially an aggro strategy, and we all know the obstacles dedicated aggro faces in a format in which board wipes are played only slightly less often than draw effects and ramp. It's also weak because, point for point, the power level of infect creatures is below the curve compared to other creatures of the same CMC (Skittles is an obvious exception to that general observation). And then there's the fact that if you are trying to win with infect, you can't win on the back of damage dealt by any of the other players, as others have already noted.
For these reasons, the amount of infect damage needed to win should stay at 10. Raising the bar means that there is no reason to design a deck that intends to win via infect damage over one that intends to win with commander damage, and in fact makes it a much worse option than commander damage in most decks, save perhaps the occasional oddball like The Mimeoplasm, since there are a lot of commanders which can rack up 21 points of damage pretty quickly.
For the record, my first EDH deck was a Rafiq infect deck. I quickly changed it to a more standard Rafiq deck because it wasn't much fun, as it usually took someone out quickly, then accomplished nothing until such time as I again got to take somewhere out of nowhere by drawing into an effect that made something unblockable. More often, I took someone out, then was eliminated from the game by the other players. The two infect decks I currently play are a Jor Kadeen metalcraft/infect deck, which can be reasonably effective, mostly because of the substantial synergy between metalcraft, the bonuses Jor provides and the infect mechanic, and a Xenagos infect deck which is probably my worst deck, and which I will probably retire soon. You might wonder, if I am arguing that infect isn't very good, why do I keep playing it? The answer is mostly because I appreciate the challenge of alternate win conditions, and because I like variety. I currently have 50 active EDH decks, and in order to keep things fresh and interesting, I build with a lot of different themes, archetypes and strategies.
It's a weak strategy because it is essentially an aggro strategy
i think that wizard failed at developing infect properly. They focused too much on the aggro side and not very much on the control side. Imo infect would be more fun if it focused on slowly putting poison counters with effects like inexorable tide and mortarpod+infect creatures
One can do that, but it's even harder to get a win with infect that way than it is by sticking with the aggro stuff, due to there being relatively few infect cards to support a non-aggro strategy. I have tried to design a deck like that on a couple occasions, including a sort of crazy Riku infect deck, but each time I have ended up concluding that it was easier to do almost literally anything else than to try to make non-aggro infect work well enough to accomplish more than pointless durdling.
But yeah, I agree, I think they missed an opportunity to do some more interesting things with infect. Maybe some of that will happen some day if we ever get new infect cards. I have to admit, one of the few things that interests me about the upcoming four-color commanders is that a couple of the color combinations do offer some possibilities for atypical infect decks. My hope is that at least one of the generals in those color combos has some synergy with that possibility.
It's an aggro strategy that draws a lot of attention but also doesn't feel like it has that "combo-like" potential needed to take out multiple players in a very short time span. I see it as explosive but not actually explosive enough to race or overcome a table.
I believe resource development cannot be ignored even in aggro decks, and if you can both do damage and develop your resources at the same time then that is even better.
It may be a biased opinion, but I value resilience far more than most of the players in my group even for decks that seemingly should forego such a property.
Also yeah infect lacks both critical mass and versatility in its best cards. All of the cards almost all do the same thing and generally require help to actually go lethal in a short timeframe.
i think in general, infect as a strategy is centred around skittles, Grafted Exoskeleton, blightsteel colossus, triumph of the hordes and tainted strike. pretty much all the other infect cards (that i can think of) are sub-par/not effective enough in a multiplayer environment. between those cards, i'd say that its just skittles himself that doesn't play out like a 'combo' - and i generally mean you hold it in your hand until the right moment, play it, kill the table/a player. i don't really see what the big deal is compared to say someone pulling some other combo in my face, be it storm or infinite 1/1s.
the way how i see it, the colossus itself is a mistake - i dont think any healthy edh group could have someone run the blightsteel for any length of time without the group starting to descend into the spiralling abyss (purely speculation on my part), but all of the other infect cards are basically combo enablers/combos themselves.
also, triumph of the hordes could quite often be swapped out for some other 'red-zone-based-combo' card like overrun, titanic ultimatum and the end result would most likely be the same. i have no stats for this statement, but by the time a player has a board that is wide enough/tall enough to kill at least a player, giving all the creatures an extra 3 boost from an overrun per creature in the mid to late game sounds like its just as effective as a 1 boost with 'quadruple-face' strike.
i have nothing against combos, but i can understand that i'm a minority, as it feels like that player 'stole' a win out of nowhere, based on a neutral/weak boardstate. and besides, even if poison is changed to 15 or 20, its not like thats going to stop people who are trying to infect the table from one-shot infecting the table; it'd just take a bit more time to set up.
basically the goal is to have as many creatures with infect in his deck as possible, as many proliferates as possible, as many extra turns as possible, cards that give him extra and infinite mana, tutor cards, cards that give his creatures as many +1/+1 as possible, any cards he can find that prevent him from losing the game, and bounce lands to ramp up his mana as high as possible as well as delves to get out the largest creatures and spells, cards he can play from his grave yard, cards that give him rebound.
Its a pain in the butt to play against him, he usually mulligans himself down until he ends up with the best playable hand which can take time during tournament play waiting for him to shuffle, hes usually able to play his extra turn spells during the first few turns thanks to scry and peer through time type spells.
TLDR
He usually opens with temporal trespass or or temporal mastery if hes lucky enough. He plays a land then bounces it and bounces it again thanks to the many "play an extra land each turn" cards available, thanks to voltaic key and sol ring he can often play mirari's wake immediately on turn one or two by turn 3 he usually has 2-4 bounce lands on the field giving him access to 8+ mana he uses to play his extra turns which ramps things up quickly, usually by turn 3 he has Atraxa out on the field with infect attached to it sometimes this occurs during turn two, at this point he plays his extra combat phases and takes out 2 opponents if he doesn't have any enlarge spells or double strike, if hes in trouble he will sacrifice artifacts and tap time seive most of the artifacts usually being treasure tokens as Ixilan has given his deck a new breath of annoyance.
all in all getting his opponents to 10 damage comes quickly usually happening by turn 3, in worst cases he has only killed one opponent by turn 3 and he plays gideon of the trials, followed by a platinum angel or exquisite archangel, everyone plays heavy spells to remove these cards or attacks said cards although by then hes filled the board with enough infect and proliferate that he makes quick work of any remaining players, the only decks he seems to struggle against are other infect decks but I haven't seen anyone with the funds to build anything as unique as the deck he runs.
To date he continues to win all EDH tournaments in our small town and remains unopposed as the quickest turn 2 or 3 win deck in the area.
I know there are a lot of quick win decks out there but I have yet to see one come close to trifling his, he either infects you, or plays vraska early with doubling season and oath of gideon, or drops gideon of T early.
honestly I would love to see the infect become 15 or 20 within commander because he continues to suck all of the fun out of EDH by constantly playing and improving this deck to deal poison death quickly and in spite we have gone from 12 to 18 person commander pods to 8 at the most and most of the players have adapted his poison/take extra turns strategy to the point that after 1 year of playing we still have sucky 8 person commander pods where everyone is either playing kikijiki or infect with any and all tutoring cards attached leaving the commander venue as non-unique as possible and yet being the only tournament style gameplay offered in our 200 mile radius.
Going to be completely honest, I think your friend's deck is a gigantic pile that can't function without completely abusable mulligan rules.
I own a deck that has a possible variant that is infect. Nuking a player with 10 infect is a fair bit of effort. I don't play that variant because I would simply be able to kill one player and die. Playing archenemy, even with very good decks, is a very uphill battle and especially so for any deck that relies upon the combat step. If you play archenemy in a game that is bigger than 3 players, the amount of removal that would get thrown at you alone would cause you to lose.
I've also played against actual decks that can potentially win on turn 2 and 3, have once built one myself, and can confidently say that none of them play 5-7 mana cards that don't do anything except play defense (and poorly at that). If you want to play cutthroat multiplayer, go talk to one of the players here who have built those decks.
So yeah, gonna say that I don't quite believe a word of what you said because my experiences and proven multiplayer theory do not match up with anything that you claim.
On topic, the best infect cards imo are the cards that grant infect to other creatures rather than any of the infect creatures themselves. Triumph of the Hordes is far and away the best one.
Going to be completely honest, I think your friend's deck is a gigantic pile that can't function without completely abusable mulligan rules.
I own a deck that has a possible variant that is infect. Nuking a player with 10 infect is a fair bit of effort. I don't play that variant because I would simply be able to kill one player and die. Playing archenemy, even with very good decks, is a very uphill battle and especially so for any deck that relies upon the combat step. If you play archenemy in a game that is bigger than 3 players, the amount of removal that would get thrown at you alone would cause you to lose.
I've also played against actual decks that can potentially win on turn 2 and 3, have once built one myself, and can confidently say that none of them play 5-7 mana cards that don't do anything except play defense (and poorly at that). If you want to play cutthroat multiplayer, go talk to one of the players here who have built those decks.
So yeah, gonna say that I don't quite believe a word of what you said because my experiences and proven multiplayer theory do not match up with anything that you claim.
On topic, the best infect cards imo are the cards that grant infect to other creatures rather than any of the infect creatures themselves. Triumph of the Hordes is far and away the best one.
To add to that, I generally think that infect often works best in decks that don't use it as its primary attack strategy. Thinking of the decks I usually see win a 4-Player game w/ infect, they usually win because it's a sudden burst of infect damage via cards like Triumph of the Hordes or Tainted Strike. This is because the attack is on an entirely different axis from the rest of the game. Primarily focusing on infect means that it often single you out as the biggest early threat.
Finally Erenoth2002, if you don't mind me asking. What is your current deck(s) of choice? I wouldn't have a problem, and many others here probably, with helping you find cards to better play against your meta.
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And while we're at it: What kind of mulligan rules do you use? Just mull until you get a playable hand? Cause that can't be abused AT ALL....
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The list is somewhat more of a rough estimate from what I've seen him play, it seems like he is always reformatting it for our weekly tournaments, I've tried to play a Narset super friends, Tishana control, Mono white Thalia, and a Freyalise green elf agaist him but somehow he always manages to get Atraxa out with some kind of infect attachment and indestructible by turn 3, either that or he plays a hex proof unblockable creature with infect.
We allow the first mulligan for free and he often drops down 4 cards and scrys 1 plays vampiric tutor and enlightened tutor pulls sol ring and voltaic key unless he already has them and drops miroris wake early, with one land hes played sol ring and voltaic key already turn 2 he drops a bounce land and plays miroris wake turn 3 he moves to play a creature with infect or an infect attachment atraxa or skittles with a growth spell any blockers are usually countered by slip through space.
by the end of his 3rd turn he always has at least someone with 9 poison counters occasionally its 8 but thats rare and in his end step the first player is out, by turn four he always seems to be able to cast an extra turn usually with time sieve or time warp occasionally he will pull a cascade spell and fill his graveyard with enough cards to play temporal trespass via delve backed by counter spells, turn 4 see's another opponent out and if his time spell was successful he often hits 2 opponents with 8 or 9 poison and proliferates at least once when it hits past 5 turns he starts playing his "cant lose the game" spells and starts dropping ghostly prison, propaganda and sometimes adds artifacts enchantments or creatures to the board that allow him to play spells cheaper, at least one of the thalia's come into play at which point if you have survived him you have to pay 2 or more mana to attack him or your spells come into play tapped meaning he can slam you with infect relatively easily if not play his -7 vraska usually sacrificing her for 3 assassins, if you manage to block any of the assassins he seems to have a trample spell handy in each of those occasions, if the board becomes tipped out of his favor hes all to happy to play Nevinyrral's Disk which usually results in triggering his time sieve he plays atraxa in the wake, infect, growth spell, and someone gains at least 8 damage unless he drops his thrumming bird and hits for 5 infect proliferates to 6 and finishes you off with skittles or atraxa via poison in the next 2 turns.
Im not entirely sure of everything that he runs as hes very secretive with his build but more often than not he plays a creature that cant be blocked with infect within turn 2 or 3 and manages to infect me with at least 8 every single time as if he's shuffled his deck in such a way that it always produces or simply mulligans, but I find it particularly unnerving that he will always mulligan draw 7, mulligan draw 6, mulligan draw 5, mulligan draw 4 until he draws his preferred combos and drops at least 1 player from the game usually being the most threatening to his deck but to make us sit for up to 30 minutes as he redraws shuffles redraws shuffles before starting the game irritates me to wanting to punch him a good one.
I suspect that he may be playing a land heavy deck with his fetch spells, infect, extra turns, and a few creatures so he drops down to 4 cards scrys and burys it if it doesnt help him draws to 5 for his first turn and plays one of the many tutor cards available unless he's happened to draw one of his combos out of mulligans.
Ive probably overstated, but I haven't managed to find a way to win against him and neither have I seen any others successfully win against him, it always seems to play out where I build some kind of board out of my decks and he swings so I attempt to block "hes unblockable" or I play a removal spell of some kind "hexproof" and I end up with 8 poison turn 2 or 3 becoming 9 poison with proliferate and in the next turn its "hes unblockable" "hexproof".. game over. The few times I've managed to block I still take trample damage 4 poison becoming 5, turn three 5 poison becomes 9 proliferate once or twice and Im out again, the next player runs a similar go and he mops up with an extra combat phase or takes an extra turn leaving the 2 remaining players with high poison counts, finishing them off soon after.
Perhaps the issue is that our limited card stock and group are all focused on combo decks which are very vulnerable to fast poison attacks and if hes not in tournaments with his friends who back him up by refusing to target him until it becomes 1 v 1 hes up against those of us still learning to build decks.
Sorry, I just have one more question before I give any answers. What’s his removal suite generally consist of?? Because it sounds like the deck is very all in. Also, what’s your budget for cards. I don’t think we should recommending you cards out of your budget.
I’m just going to say if he’s aggressively mulling, he’s probably incredibly susceptible to effects with discard, or counterspells.
Like, I really don’t want to be the guy that says run Leeches or Solemnity to counter infect.
Also, does this person have another deck? I’m asking because I’ve definitely invested heavily into a deck, and only had one deck together for that before.
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This person is not only playing an all-in deck, but is playing one where there are only situational synergy pieces.
Like, if he mulls to 4 and uses a topdeck tutor, he essentially mulled to 3 and set up his top card.
If he draws fast mana, loyalty doubler, infect creature, he loses.
If he draws a planeswalker and a indestructible enabler, he loses. There are so many pieces that only have synergy with a few other cards, rather than the whole deck.
This deck is so unstable that the only way he can be remotely consistent is by cheating.
Even if he was, one piece of 1 mana spot removal played at the right time causes him to lose because if he mulls a lot, then he has effectively lost 3-4 cards compared to 0-1 of everyone else. He loses.
You can't have the fast mana, the lands, and two different and correctly matching synergy pieces every game. If this person is, this person is cheating,
Bouncelands in a 4-color mana base with fast colorless rocks? Not sold on the stability of the mana either.
Everyone saying that poison should stay at 10 for helping infect aggro decks is lying.
I love being called a liar for stating things that are simply truth in a lot of metas. My LGS, even at 10 infect is barely worth it. We get the occasional Triumph of the Hordes - usually an Overrun would've done just as well. Someone has a Skithiryx deck but since that deck telegraphs what it's doing it's not hard to deal with and if you lose to it, your fault for not, well, dealing with it. Then there is a Nekussar deck around that has a Tainted Strike in there somewhere but that one's rarely seen cause the owner doesn't like playing that deck too often. (It's either "Oh lol I win" or "Guess I'll do nothing this game", nothing in between)
Infect is far from domineering in most metas. Its just another viable tactic. Calling people who have those experiences liars is a very poor way of going about the discussion.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
This person is not only playing an all-in deck, but is playing one where there are only situational synergy pieces.
Like, if he mulls to 4 and uses a topdeck tutor, he essentially mulled to 3 and set up his top card.
If he draws fast mana, loyalty doubler, infect creature, he loses.
If he draws a planeswalker and a indestructible enabler, he loses. There are so many pieces that only have synergy with a few other cards, rather than the whole deck.
This deck is so unstable that the only way he can be remotely consistent is by cheating.
Even if he was, one piece of 1 mana spot removal played at the right time causes him to lose because if he mulls a lot, then he has effectively lost 3-4 cards compared to 0-1 of everyone else. He loses.
You can't have the fast mana, the lands, and two different and correctly matching synergy pieces every game. If this person is, this person is cheating,
Bouncelands in a 4-color mana base with fast colorless rocks? Not sold on the stability of the mana either.
Something tells me that he is cheating.... his openings seem to either involve a blighted agent with enlarge or might of oaks, or Atraxa with Triumph of the Hordes or Tainted Strike with a one or 2 mana +4/+4 and a spell to counter blockers, now that I think on it those are consistently always his openings a 1/1 that becomes an 8/8 or a 4/4 that becomes an 8/8, two opponents have 8 or 9 poison suddenly and he almost always opens with Mirari's Wake
I think I'm going to set up my phone as a life counter and secretly record a few sessions with him and a couple others in the group and send it to wizards or a judge, I began playing in Australia and I've never seen so many people end up pulling the same opening hands in commander formats but in this case without us having a judge I believe 3 or 4 of our regulars are playing with stacked decks or padding their decks with 2 or 3 of the same cards.
In the 6 or 8 months I have frequented the small establishment I can recall seeing 3 or 4 players himself included who consistently pull literally the same exact cards out of their asses during the first 3 turns. One of them plays infect and always manages to put out thrumming bird, blighted agent or drops Atraxa, another plays a dragon deck an I have never seen any more than 10 of the exact same cards consistently in play, in a similar vein he also plays feline ferocity and I haven't seen him play any more than his commander ending up with a roulette of the same 4-5 equipment or mirri duelist, the third player is an antagonist of my own since I caught him cheating, he plays Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca with a fleet swallower which always seems to be in his hand along with fraying sanity and/or traumatize
I had not put much thought into it, however the win ratio whenever I play without said players is far more randomized and they always seems to group themselves together with at least one of them winning a tournament whilst in tournament play they never directly attack each other.
I recall one tournament where "said antagonist" started screaming about someone taking a +500 dollar deck he left sitting out while playing, however when one of the owners offered to review the security footage he adamantly declined and couldn't leave the store fast enough despite everyone in the store offering to open their packs for searching.
mind you all of this is pure speculation and could very well be me pulling conspiracy theories out of my arse however I cant help thinking again of how I have never seen any more the 10 cards of each of their 1 or 2 commander decks they have built they're very secretive and quickly return their decks to a fancy cube quickly between matches and never want to share with the group on what exactly they run in their decks.
One thing remains, I have never felt more uncomfortable and more unwelcome in matches or casual play then when I am around those same 4 players and I would certainly give up my right leg to find another shop within reasonable distance or simply move to another area.
Calling people who have those experiences liars is a very poor way of going about the discussion.
But it's a lie. Even at 10 poison straight, 100% infect aggro decks have no chance. Simple as that. Look at the creatures with infect, things like blackcleave goblin, blightwidow, contagious nim, flensermite have a chance in EDH even with only 10 poison? Even more pushed infect creatures like chained throatseeker, phyrexian swarmlord and phyrexian vatmother are mediocre.
Put together an aggro deck with only infect creatures at it will still struggle with the 10 poison rule. It is simple not viable. Telling that such a deck can become viable is like telling that a Starfish tribal deck is viable. Meanwhile, cheesy combo and interactions will flourish thanks to that rule.
10 poison is actually probably a completely reasonable number in any format unfortunately I'm growing more certain that I am playing against stacked decks.
The few times I've played against someone with an infect deck, they ended up as archenemy, and were killed off very early on. The remaining players then played the rest of the game normally, while the infect player waited hours for the next game. Didn't seem worth it to me.
Moral of the story, play infect if that's really what you want to play; however, don't expect to have fun, or make any friends.
These people act like they're trying to hide something. This more often than not means they actually are hiding something.
Today I had to bust my ass to win on turn 7. I had a really solid opening hand (but not a busted fast mana one) and my deck has basically complete synergy and I killed the table.... on turn 7.. with some amount of disruption thrown my way too. I had to generate 20 mana and draw 16 cards to get where I needed to go, and I did so with cards that all had insane synergy with each other.
They cannot realistically win often with decks that are significantly less stable than that deck against everyone on turn 4. It is like making a claim on the deck's performance but upon reading the paper I find that there is a number that is higher than the maximum theoretical limit. If I see something like that I will rightfully throw that paper back into that person's face and tell them to rewrite it. If they have multiple copies of cards in a deck and this has been going on for months, I would not be surprised if they got outright banned from the store. Complete dishonesty to that degree is not something that anyone wants in their store.
Most EDH I played were multiplayer, it's difficult to get an Infect board without people ganging up on killing every phyrexian filth they see.
In 1-on-1, I've seen many variation of the deck type, though they weren't any worse than dealing with a voltron deck where over 21 commander damage is common.
Infect is definitely not broken at 10, it's just like any other strategy and it's certainly not as good as consistent non-combat combo decks and stax. Does losing to a surprise tainted strike or triumph suck? Yeah. So does losing to food chain. I think Saskia the Unyielding and Ezuri, Claw of Progress are the two most successful infect decks I have seen so far, and it's partially because if the infect gameplan doesn't work, they have a backup plan. Aggressive infect is a great way to take out individual players and generally bad at table kills. This makes it scarier for those people playing slow-rolling combo decks (or control decks that just don't see their spot removal).
I feel like the people complaining about 10 infect are generally people that don't have to deal with a lot of strong combo decks and/or generally play in a slower/more-casual meta and aren't normally pressed into running disruption like spot removal in any real quantity.
Infect is definitely not broken at 10, it's just like any other strategy and it's certainly not as good as consistent non-combat combo decks and stax. Does losing to a surprise tainted strike or triumph suck? Yeah. So does losing to food chain. I think Saskia the Unyielding and Ezuri, Claw of Progress are the two most successful infect decks I have seen so far, and it's partially because if the infect gameplan doesn't work, they have a backup plan. Aggressive infect is a great way to take out individual players and generally bad at table kills. This makes it scarier for those people playing slow-rolling combo decks (or control decks that just don't see their spot removal).
I feel like the people complaining about 10 infect are generally people that don't have to deal with a lot of strong combo decks and/or generally play in a slower/more-casual meta and aren't normally pressed into running disruption like spot removal in any real quantity.
maybe they are good infect focused decks. I have played both rafiq and mimeoplasm decks that ran infect as a win con (but not the only win con) and both were very successful.
With that said, what has been shown to be a problem for EDH in the past (if you use the banlist as a guide) is when cards and strategies cause group harmony issues because they look like they should fit in the former category but in practice belong in the latter category. For the most part infect isn't too much of a problem with that in mind, though there are a few "oops I ruined the game" situations like the aforementioned Xenagos/Phyrexian Hydra combo.
It's a minor archetype that is difficult to win with in practice. Blightsteel does a job of it, but at that point wouldn't OG Kozilek? or OG Ulamog?
I don't see it as being an "easy" win by any means, especially when most of the cards are underpowered because of how strong the mechanic is.
I also don't think a rule for it is worth anything. People that want it at 20 don't actually think it's reasonable. Even 15 to some degree. They just don't want to ever have to worry about the possibility of dying to infect ever again. You don't want that worry? You set it at 20, because it is impossible to do, even halfway reliably.
I run Triumph of the Hordes in my Omnath list. It can occasionally be a blowout, but it is a one shot overrun and if I don't kill someone with infect, I have no real way to capitalize at whatever amount of poison counters they happen to be at, at that point.
Sure, it can be annoying like Annihilator is, but so can stax, hard control, MLD, etc. I don't see a compelling reason to change the rule or anything of that nature just because a strategy can be "annoying". If anything, you either learn to declare blockers more carefully or you tell them you don't ever want to face their infect again, which I imagine these individuals are more than capable of doing.
I don't have a problem with infect, and I occasionally like being able to win with it. I do have a problem with changing rules when the individuals that have problems with it can solve it themselves. It's the same issue with cards like Serra Ascendant activating over 30 life. Or Felidar Sovereign winning at 40 or more life. Not every card was made with EDH in mind (in fact, most weren't). I think the quirky interactions you get because of EDH's different rules are a feature, not a bug.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Infect is just an aggro strategy. Games are better when people play different kinds of decks. Infect is not even close to being overpowered in EDH. It's quite difficult to win a table if infect is your only trick.
1. Infect creatures suck. Someone mentioned quadruple strike.....but did he that infect creatures are small and overcosted and completely lacking card advantage abilities or triggers.
2. An opponent maybe at 1, you still have to deal 10. No one helps you, and for some reason players already hate your guts because, well, you're the dirty "infect" player. Due to poor threat assessment, Everyone will get a free pass even though they are bigger threats.
3. Are we really complaining about pump spell + berserk or even tainted strike? You cannot be mad at an opponent playing pump spells on edh. Take a step back and reflect. Since, That's like complaining about life gain being overpowered in competitive to tournament magic. At that point, I just feel like you're a bad player who just complains rather than wanting to play and have fun.
It's a weak strategy because it is essentially an aggro strategy, and we all know the obstacles dedicated aggro faces in a format in which board wipes are played only slightly less often than draw effects and ramp. It's also weak because, point for point, the power level of infect creatures is below the curve compared to other creatures of the same CMC (Skittles is an obvious exception to that general observation). And then there's the fact that if you are trying to win with infect, you can't win on the back of damage dealt by any of the other players, as others have already noted.
For these reasons, the amount of infect damage needed to win should stay at 10. Raising the bar means that there is no reason to design a deck that intends to win via infect damage over one that intends to win with commander damage, and in fact makes it a much worse option than commander damage in most decks, save perhaps the occasional oddball like The Mimeoplasm, since there are a lot of commanders which can rack up 21 points of damage pretty quickly.
For the record, my first EDH deck was a Rafiq infect deck. I quickly changed it to a more standard Rafiq deck because it wasn't much fun, as it usually took someone out quickly, then accomplished nothing until such time as I again got to take somewhere out of nowhere by drawing into an effect that made something unblockable. More often, I took someone out, then was eliminated from the game by the other players. The two infect decks I currently play are a Jor Kadeen metalcraft/infect deck, which can be reasonably effective, mostly because of the substantial synergy between metalcraft, the bonuses Jor provides and the infect mechanic, and a Xenagos infect deck which is probably my worst deck, and which I will probably retire soon. You might wonder, if I am arguing that infect isn't very good, why do I keep playing it? The answer is mostly because I appreciate the challenge of alternate win conditions, and because I like variety. I currently have 50 active EDH decks, and in order to keep things fresh and interesting, I build with a lot of different themes, archetypes and strategies.
One can do that, but it's even harder to get a win with infect that way than it is by sticking with the aggro stuff, due to there being relatively few infect cards to support a non-aggro strategy. I have tried to design a deck like that on a couple occasions, including a sort of crazy Riku infect deck, but each time I have ended up concluding that it was easier to do almost literally anything else than to try to make non-aggro infect work well enough to accomplish more than pointless durdling.
But yeah, I agree, I think they missed an opportunity to do some more interesting things with infect. Maybe some of that will happen some day if we ever get new infect cards. I have to admit, one of the few things that interests me about the upcoming four-color commanders is that a couple of the color combinations do offer some possibilities for atypical infect decks. My hope is that at least one of the generals in those color combos has some synergy with that possibility.
I believe resource development cannot be ignored even in aggro decks, and if you can both do damage and develop your resources at the same time then that is even better.
It may be a biased opinion, but I value resilience far more than most of the players in my group even for decks that seemingly should forego such a property.
Also yeah infect lacks both critical mass and versatility in its best cards. All of the cards almost all do the same thing and generally require help to actually go lethal in a short timeframe.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
the way how i see it, the colossus itself is a mistake - i dont think any healthy edh group could have someone run the blightsteel for any length of time without the group starting to descend into the spiralling abyss (purely speculation on my part), but all of the other infect cards are basically combo enablers/combos themselves.
also, triumph of the hordes could quite often be swapped out for some other 'red-zone-based-combo' card like overrun, titanic ultimatum and the end result would most likely be the same. i have no stats for this statement, but by the time a player has a board that is wide enough/tall enough to kill at least a player, giving all the creatures an extra 3 boost from an overrun per creature in the mid to late game sounds like its just as effective as a 1 boost with 'quadruple-face' strike.
i have nothing against combos, but i can understand that i'm a minority, as it feels like that player 'stole' a win out of nowhere, based on a neutral/weak boardstate. and besides, even if poison is changed to 15 or 20, its not like thats going to stop people who are trying to infect the table from one-shot infecting the table; it'd just take a bit more time to set up.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
beacon of tomorrows
Part the Waterveil
walk the aeons
temporal mastery
time stretch
temporal trespass
time sieve
marionette master
time warp
serum visions
strionic resonator
demonic tutor
enlightened tutor
ring of three wishes
voltaic key
grafted exoskeleton
triumph of the hordes
tainted strike
thalia, heretic cathar
thalia, guardian of thraben
contagion engine
inexorable tide
rishkar, peema renegade
ghave, guru of spores
read the bones
swarm intelligence
dictate of erebos
Mirari's Wake
platinum angel
exquisite archangel
vraska the unseen
spirit of the hearth
basically the goal is to have as many creatures with infect in his deck as possible, as many proliferates as possible, as many extra turns as possible, cards that give him extra and infinite mana, tutor cards, cards that give his creatures as many +1/+1 as possible, any cards he can find that prevent him from losing the game, and bounce lands to ramp up his mana as high as possible as well as delves to get out the largest creatures and spells, cards he can play from his grave yard, cards that give him rebound.
Its a pain in the butt to play against him, he usually mulligans himself down until he ends up with the best playable hand which can take time during tournament play waiting for him to shuffle, hes usually able to play his extra turn spells during the first few turns thanks to scry and peer through time type spells.
TLDR
He usually opens with temporal trespass or or temporal mastery if hes lucky enough. He plays a land then bounces it and bounces it again thanks to the many "play an extra land each turn" cards available, thanks to voltaic key and sol ring he can often play mirari's wake immediately on turn one or two by turn 3 he usually has 2-4 bounce lands on the field giving him access to 8+ mana he uses to play his extra turns which ramps things up quickly, usually by turn 3 he has Atraxa out on the field with infect attached to it sometimes this occurs during turn two, at this point he plays his extra combat phases and takes out 2 opponents if he doesn't have any enlarge spells or double strike, if hes in trouble he will sacrifice artifacts and tap time seive most of the artifacts usually being treasure tokens as Ixilan has given his deck a new breath of annoyance.
all in all getting his opponents to 10 damage comes quickly usually happening by turn 3, in worst cases he has only killed one opponent by turn 3 and he plays gideon of the trials, followed by a platinum angel or exquisite archangel, everyone plays heavy spells to remove these cards or attacks said cards although by then hes filled the board with enough infect and proliferate that he makes quick work of any remaining players, the only decks he seems to struggle against are other infect decks but I haven't seen anyone with the funds to build anything as unique as the deck he runs.
To date he continues to win all EDH tournaments in our small town and remains unopposed as the quickest turn 2 or 3 win deck in the area.
I know there are a lot of quick win decks out there but I have yet to see one come close to trifling his, he either infects you, or plays vraska early with doubling season and oath of gideon, or drops gideon of T early.
honestly I would love to see the infect become 15 or 20 within commander because he continues to suck all of the fun out of EDH by constantly playing and improving this deck to deal poison death quickly and in spite we have gone from 12 to 18 person commander pods to 8 at the most and most of the players have adapted his poison/take extra turns strategy to the point that after 1 year of playing we still have sucky 8 person commander pods where everyone is either playing kikijiki or infect with any and all tutoring cards attached leaving the commander venue as non-unique as possible and yet being the only tournament style gameplay offered in our 200 mile radius.
I own a deck that has a possible variant that is infect. Nuking a player with 10 infect is a fair bit of effort. I don't play that variant because I would simply be able to kill one player and die. Playing archenemy, even with very good decks, is a very uphill battle and especially so for any deck that relies upon the combat step. If you play archenemy in a game that is bigger than 3 players, the amount of removal that would get thrown at you alone would cause you to lose.
I've also played against actual decks that can potentially win on turn 2 and 3, have once built one myself, and can confidently say that none of them play 5-7 mana cards that don't do anything except play defense (and poorly at that). If you want to play cutthroat multiplayer, go talk to one of the players here who have built those decks.
So yeah, gonna say that I don't quite believe a word of what you said because my experiences and proven multiplayer theory do not match up with anything that you claim.
On topic, the best infect cards imo are the cards that grant infect to other creatures rather than any of the infect creatures themselves. Triumph of the Hordes is far and away the best one.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
To add to that, I generally think that infect often works best in decks that don't use it as its primary attack strategy. Thinking of the decks I usually see win a 4-Player game w/ infect, they usually win because it's a sudden burst of infect damage via cards like Triumph of the Hordes or Tainted Strike. This is because the attack is on an entirely different axis from the rest of the game. Primarily focusing on infect means that it often single you out as the biggest early threat.
Finally Erenoth2002, if you don't mind me asking. What is your current deck(s) of choice? I wouldn't have a problem, and many others here probably, with helping you find cards to better play against your meta.
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
We allow the first mulligan for free and he often drops down 4 cards and scrys 1 plays vampiric tutor and enlightened tutor pulls sol ring and voltaic key unless he already has them and drops miroris wake early, with one land hes played sol ring and voltaic key already turn 2 he drops a bounce land and plays miroris wake turn 3 he moves to play a creature with infect or an infect attachment atraxa or skittles with a growth spell any blockers are usually countered by slip through space.
by the end of his 3rd turn he always has at least someone with 9 poison counters occasionally its 8 but thats rare and in his end step the first player is out, by turn four he always seems to be able to cast an extra turn usually with time sieve or time warp occasionally he will pull a cascade spell and fill his graveyard with enough cards to play temporal trespass via delve backed by counter spells, turn 4 see's another opponent out and if his time spell was successful he often hits 2 opponents with 8 or 9 poison and proliferates at least once when it hits past 5 turns he starts playing his "cant lose the game" spells and starts dropping ghostly prison, propaganda and sometimes adds artifacts enchantments or creatures to the board that allow him to play spells cheaper, at least one of the thalia's come into play at which point if you have survived him you have to pay 2 or more mana to attack him or your spells come into play tapped meaning he can slam you with infect relatively easily if not play his -7 vraska usually sacrificing her for 3 assassins, if you manage to block any of the assassins he seems to have a trample spell handy in each of those occasions, if the board becomes tipped out of his favor hes all to happy to play Nevinyrral's Disk which usually results in triggering his time sieve he plays atraxa in the wake, infect, growth spell, and someone gains at least 8 damage unless he drops his thrumming bird and hits for 5 infect proliferates to 6 and finishes you off with skittles or atraxa via poison in the next 2 turns.
Im not entirely sure of everything that he runs as hes very secretive with his build but more often than not he plays a creature that cant be blocked with infect within turn 2 or 3 and manages to infect me with at least 8 every single time as if he's shuffled his deck in such a way that it always produces or simply mulligans, but I find it particularly unnerving that he will always mulligan draw 7, mulligan draw 6, mulligan draw 5, mulligan draw 4 until he draws his preferred combos and drops at least 1 player from the game usually being the most threatening to his deck but to make us sit for up to 30 minutes as he redraws shuffles redraws shuffles before starting the game irritates me to wanting to punch him a good one.
I suspect that he may be playing a land heavy deck with his fetch spells, infect, extra turns, and a few creatures so he drops down to 4 cards scrys and burys it if it doesnt help him draws to 5 for his first turn and plays one of the many tutor cards available unless he's happened to draw one of his combos out of mulligans.
Ive probably overstated, but I haven't managed to find a way to win against him and neither have I seen any others successfully win against him, it always seems to play out where I build some kind of board out of my decks and he swings so I attempt to block "hes unblockable" or I play a removal spell of some kind "hexproof" and I end up with 8 poison turn 2 or 3 becoming 9 poison with proliferate and in the next turn its "hes unblockable" "hexproof".. game over. The few times I've managed to block I still take trample damage 4 poison becoming 5, turn three 5 poison becomes 9 proliferate once or twice and Im out again, the next player runs a similar go and he mops up with an extra combat phase or takes an extra turn leaving the 2 remaining players with high poison counts, finishing them off soon after.
Perhaps the issue is that our limited card stock and group are all focused on combo decks which are very vulnerable to fast poison attacks and if hes not in tournaments with his friends who back him up by refusing to target him until it becomes 1 v 1 hes up against those of us still learning to build decks.
I’m just going to say if he’s aggressively mulling, he’s probably incredibly susceptible to effects with discard, or counterspells.
Like, I really don’t want to be the guy that says run Leeches or Solemnity to counter infect.
Also, does this person have another deck? I’m asking because I’ve definitely invested heavily into a deck, and only had one deck together for that before.
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
Like, if he mulls to 4 and uses a topdeck tutor, he essentially mulled to 3 and set up his top card.
If he draws fast mana, loyalty doubler, infect creature, he loses.
If he draws a planeswalker and a indestructible enabler, he loses. There are so many pieces that only have synergy with a few other cards, rather than the whole deck.
This deck is so unstable that the only way he can be remotely consistent is by cheating.
Even if he was, one piece of 1 mana spot removal played at the right time causes him to lose because if he mulls a lot, then he has effectively lost 3-4 cards compared to 0-1 of everyone else. He loses.
You can't have the fast mana, the lands, and two different and correctly matching synergy pieces every game. If this person is, this person is cheating,
Bouncelands in a 4-color mana base with fast colorless rocks? Not sold on the stability of the mana either.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
I love being called a liar for stating things that are simply truth in a lot of metas. My LGS, even at 10 infect is barely worth it. We get the occasional Triumph of the Hordes - usually an Overrun would've done just as well. Someone has a Skithiryx deck but since that deck telegraphs what it's doing it's not hard to deal with and if you lose to it, your fault for not, well, dealing with it. Then there is a Nekussar deck around that has a Tainted Strike in there somewhere but that one's rarely seen cause the owner doesn't like playing that deck too often. (It's either "Oh lol I win" or "Guess I'll do nothing this game", nothing in between)
Infect is far from domineering in most metas. Its just another viable tactic. Calling people who have those experiences liars is a very poor way of going about the discussion.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
Something tells me that he is cheating.... his openings seem to either involve a blighted agent with enlarge or might of oaks, or Atraxa with Triumph of the Hordes or Tainted Strike with a one or 2 mana +4/+4 and a spell to counter blockers, now that I think on it those are consistently always his openings a 1/1 that becomes an 8/8 or a 4/4 that becomes an 8/8, two opponents have 8 or 9 poison suddenly and he almost always opens with Mirari's Wake
I think I'm going to set up my phone as a life counter and secretly record a few sessions with him and a couple others in the group and send it to wizards or a judge, I began playing in Australia and I've never seen so many people end up pulling the same opening hands in commander formats but in this case without us having a judge I believe 3 or 4 of our regulars are playing with stacked decks or padding their decks with 2 or 3 of the same cards.
In the 6 or 8 months I have frequented the small establishment I can recall seeing 3 or 4 players himself included who consistently pull literally the same exact cards out of their asses during the first 3 turns. One of them plays infect and always manages to put out thrumming bird, blighted agent or drops Atraxa, another plays a dragon deck an I have never seen any more than 10 of the exact same cards consistently in play, in a similar vein he also plays feline ferocity and I haven't seen him play any more than his commander ending up with a roulette of the same 4-5 equipment or mirri duelist, the third player is an antagonist of my own since I caught him cheating, he plays Kumena, Tyrant of Orazca with a fleet swallower which always seems to be in his hand along with fraying sanity and/or traumatize
I had not put much thought into it, however the win ratio whenever I play without said players is far more randomized and they always seems to group themselves together with at least one of them winning a tournament whilst in tournament play they never directly attack each other.
I recall one tournament where "said antagonist" started screaming about someone taking a +500 dollar deck he left sitting out while playing, however when one of the owners offered to review the security footage he adamantly declined and couldn't leave the store fast enough despite everyone in the store offering to open their packs for searching.
mind you all of this is pure speculation and could very well be me pulling conspiracy theories out of my arse however I cant help thinking again of how I have never seen any more the 10 cards of each of their 1 or 2 commander decks they have built they're very secretive and quickly return their decks to a fancy cube quickly between matches and never want to share with the group on what exactly they run in their decks.
One thing remains, I have never felt more uncomfortable and more unwelcome in matches or casual play then when I am around those same 4 players and I would certainly give up my right leg to find another shop within reasonable distance or simply move to another area.
10 poison is actually probably a completely reasonable number in any format unfortunately I'm growing more certain that I am playing against stacked decks.
I've never been in a playgroup that routinely allows infect, even an out of nowhere Blightsteel Colossus or Triumph of the Hordes kill is heavily frowned upon.
The few times I've played against someone with an infect deck, they ended up as archenemy, and were killed off very early on. The remaining players then played the rest of the game normally, while the infect player waited hours for the next game. Didn't seem worth it to me.
Moral of the story, play infect if that's really what you want to play; however, don't expect to have fun, or make any friends.
Today I had to bust my ass to win on turn 7. I had a really solid opening hand (but not a busted fast mana one) and my deck has basically complete synergy and I killed the table.... on turn 7.. with some amount of disruption thrown my way too. I had to generate 20 mana and draw 16 cards to get where I needed to go, and I did so with cards that all had insane synergy with each other.
They cannot realistically win often with decks that are significantly less stable than that deck against everyone on turn 4. It is like making a claim on the deck's performance but upon reading the paper I find that there is a number that is higher than the maximum theoretical limit. If I see something like that I will rightfully throw that paper back into that person's face and tell them to rewrite it. If they have multiple copies of cards in a deck and this has been going on for months, I would not be surprised if they got outright banned from the store. Complete dishonesty to that degree is not something that anyone wants in their store.
The Unidentified Fantastic Flying Girl.
EDH
Xenagos, the God of Stompy
The Gitrog Monster: Oppressive Value.
Marchesa, Marionette Master - Undying Robots
Yuriko, the Hydra Omnivore
I make dolls as a hobby.
In 1-on-1, I've seen many variation of the deck type, though they weren't any worse than dealing with a voltron deck where over 21 commander damage is common.
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
I feel like the people complaining about 10 infect are generally people that don't have to deal with a lot of strong combo decks and/or generally play in a slower/more-casual meta and aren't normally pressed into running disruption like spot removal in any real quantity.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist