It's been three years since those things released and I still see people take the tempting offer. Stop it. It's never a good play. The worst offender is Tempt with Discovery. Literally today I was playing against Gitrog Monster and Surrak Dragonclaw, and Gitrog played Tempt, getting a Cabal Coffers (Urborg already on the field). I decline...Surrak takes it...and fetches Game Trail while Gitrog grabs Vesuva.
The Surrak player could not understand why that was a bad play. "I needed the mana!"
You never get more out of the offer than the player who cast it. Embrace that. Let them play their slightly overcosted Tempting cards and do not make them exceptionally good by copying them.
Rather than saying experienced players would ALWAYS decline the offer, I'd say an experienced player would 'weigh' the offer more carefully. The opponent who offers would always get extra benefit, but you still have cards in hand/grave/library that may turn the table despite their advantage.
The same could be said about Tempt with Immortality, which REQUIRES its caster to put a creature (or more) into play from graveyard, Containment Priest suddenly becomes a political tool where you could encourage everyone else on the table to bring back a harmless creature just so you could exile that many more creatures from the Tempter's arsenal.
Many of the decks I build, whether they're powerful or not, are combo decks at heart. Because of that, there are a lot of games where I'm only 1 or 2 mana away from just winning the game myself. If I don't think that the player casting Tempt with Discovery can win on the spot or get something to stop me then I usually accept that tempt. The other tempts don't really come up that often for me. Tempt with Vengeance kind of scares me with something like Vicious Shadows or Purphoros, God of the Forge I guess
This mindset would ***** on a set of fun political cards for a fun political format.
Take the damn tempts or don't take them. But anyone just refusing them on principle is someone I'd rather see at a different game table than my own.
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Agree 100%, thank you for posting this. I can't prove it, but I have a feeling that the people that keep accepting the tempting offer are the same people who won't slow down a turn to pay the 1 for Rhystic Study.
Depends who casts it. Not every player is that evil. Sure cabal coffers, Urborg and vesuva may be painful but it is far form the worst option. Besides you can get use to certain decks and know just what they have in store. My brother plays Tempt with Discoery, he only plays forests.
My Baru deck almost always gets just a Blighted Woodland and some forests when ever I use Tempt with Discovery, though with Baru, Fist of Krosa and a couple of other green creatures, that can make enough forests hitting the field to do some damage. I do need to get a Collective Voyage for the deck though, as Baru triggers from anyone having a forest hit play.
Agree 100%, thank you for posting this. I can't prove it, but I have a feeling that the people that keep accepting the tempting offer are the same people who won't slow down a turn to pay the 1 for Rhystic Study.
Depends who casts it. Not every player is that evil. Sure cabal coffers, Urborg and vesuva may be painful but it is far form the worst option. Besides you can get use to certain decks and know just what they have in store. My brother plays Tempt with Discoery, he only plays forests.
Even if we assume everyone is playing basics, your brother still comes out way ahead. While I am also sure you can win against some players who draw half their deck off Rhystic Study, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to feed cards to the blue player.
What it usually comes down to is people's general inability to delay gratification. When it comes at the expense of everyone else, a lot of people (myself included) find it pretty annoying.
Another example: someone casts Maralen of the Mornsong. Player A fetches Sol Ring instead of a kill spell. Player B fetches a Lightning Greaves instead of a kill spell. Player C doesn't want to fall behind (or in my case, wants everyone to learn a lesson), so he fetches a Vandalblast instead of a kill spell. Maralen player gets Stranglehold and everyone loses. If Player A would just kill the Maralen then there would be no issue, but that "tempting offer"...
It's been three years since those things released and I still see people take the tempting offer. Stop it. It's never a good play. The worst offender is Tempt with Discovery. Literally today I was playing against Gitrog Monster and Surrak Dragonclaw, and Gitrog played Tempt, getting a Cabal Coffers (Urborg already on the field). I decline...Surrak takes it...and fetches Game Trail while Gitrog grabs Vesuva.
The Surrak player could not understand why that was a bad play. "I needed the mana!"
You never get more out of the offer than the player who cast it. Embrace that. Let them play their slightly overcosted Tempting cards and do not make them exceptionally good by copying them.
Not going to lie, I abuse the crap out of ToD due to the noob logic of ramping
Agree 100%, thank you for posting this. I can't prove it, but I have a feeling that the people that keep accepting the tempting offer are the same people who won't slow down a turn to pay the 1 for Rhystic Study.
Depends who casts it. Not every player is that evil. Sure cabal coffers, Urborg and vesuva may be painful but it is far form the worst option. Besides you can get use to certain decks and know just what they have in store. My brother plays Tempt with Discoery, he only plays forests.
Even if we assume everyone is playing basics, your brother still comes out way ahead. While I am also sure you can win against some players who draw half their deck off Rhystic Study, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to feed cards to the blue player.
What it usually comes down to is people's general inability to delay gratification. When it comes at the expense of everyone else, a lot of people (myself included) find it pretty annoying.
Another example: someone casts Maralen of the Mornsong. Player A fetches Sol Ring instead of a kill spell. Player B fetches a Lightning Greaves instead of a kill spell. Player C doesn't want to fall behind (or in my case, wants everyone to learn a lesson), so he fetches a Vandalblast instead of a kill spell. Maralen player gets Stranglehold and everyone loses. If Player A would just kill the Maralen then there would be no issue, but that "tempting offer"...
He already comes out way ahead with the amount of ramp he plays. In fact those extra lands from ToD is better for us so we ca find lands we need as he is already going to have 15 lands in play.
Wether it's rhystic study or tempt I'm with allanon. I frequently can win a game off of a single free land if I assess that accepting a tempting offer increases my odds of winning I will take it I don't care if it lowers the odds of the other 2 players to win or if it increases the odds of the person who cast it winning I only care how it impacts my odds. Similarly whe rhystic study is often in multiplayer not strictly worse than a one sided sphere effect for the controller since I have a choice it's strictly worse when I'm making that decision. If I decide the my best odds of winning are to try and combo off into the study I'm going to do it. If a rhystic study player is tapped out and I think the odds of him staring into a free counter spell are worse than my odds of winning if I dint push all In
Now I'll take those odds. If I wiff or fail to go off will he win? Most likely but I don't really care I weighed the odds and found if I did not I would have a higher chance of losing anyway. While I'm sure many players make the wrong decision taking the position of always paying for study or never accepting and offer is a poor one. Just like any other choice in magic you weigh the pros and the cons of each action try and read the players etc. I think tempt is actually a very interesting card strip mines been mentioned but people forget they can target anyone the scariest tempting offer to me is one that reads " hey let's strip mine/ wasteland all of moxnix' lands" on the flip side to that argument if I was to cast this spell and reveal a cradle with 7 bodies out is it worth stripping the cradle if it means I get to untap it with a deserted temple in response and combo kill you? I love how many ways cards like this can play out. Just like any other decision tree you just have to weigh your odds and make your play and while I'm sure this SCD was targeting at many players making the wrong decision it's simply a poor point of view to ALWAYS choose one way. These effects really do shine in multiplayer where traditionally cards like browbeat and vexing devil etc have been seen as poor due to your opponent choosing a card like rhystic study is not only amplified by the number of players but the setting and greed of ones own chances of winning will often pay huge dividends to those who play them. Magic is a complex game everything matters I personally hate simple answers to questions like "how many lands should I run" then with no other information at all people give answers like "37 lands seems good"
I remember a game I played on mtgo vs meal storm wanderer I doubted he played free counters and cast brainstorm and other cantrips into his consecrated Sphinx to build his hand for my windfall I let him draw almost his entire deck off that windfall but he had no force of will and I killed the table. Not everything is as simple as it seems
I love it when people accept my tempting offers. Just this past week, I played 5 color superfriends and cast Tempt with Discovery twice in a five player game - and everyone took the offers both times. Let's just say I won that game.
As for accepting other people's offers, I usually only will if I need a Bojuka Bog to shut down the reanimator deck or just one more land to win. Other than that, it's just not worth it.
My most memorable moments with Tempt With Discovery have been when I've had newer and inexperienced players at the table, and explaining to them why you never take the deal. Sometimes this has influenced the table into not taking the offer, and other times they take it. Once, I was the one casting it and explaining why it was a bad deal, then proceeded to say "I told you so" after they took the deal and I won the following turn.
I have the opposite problem with this card. The only guy who runs it has no good lands to get, so he's getting his Canopy Vista and I'll grab a Volrath's Stronghold.
Let's not forget the scenario where someone is way ahead and another player casts a tempt spell. The rest of the table who is behind might all prefer a boost even if one player (who wasn't already ahead) gets an advantage. Particularly if they have good reason to believe the tempt caster will go after the player who was previously ahead.
Had a game yesterday with my Titania deck where I cast Tempt with Discovery on turn 3 after a bit of ramp (T1 Green Sun's Zenith IIRC). With a Lotus Cobra in play. And, yep, all three accepted it. It sorta made sense for one player, as he had gone with a one land hand after having to mulligan to 6 and hadn't hit another, but still, letting me get 4 lands with the Cobra in play is never gonna end well. By the end of the turn, I had my general, 4 elementals and 7 lands. Oh, and a Marit Lage.
Had a game yesterday with my Titania deck where I cast Tempt with Discovery on turn 3 after a bit of ramp (T1 Green Sun's Zenith IIRC). With a Lotus Cobra in play. And, yep, all three accepted it. It sorta made sense for one player, as he had gone with a one land hand after having to mulligan to 6 and hadn't hit another, but still, letting me get 4 lands with the Cobra in play is never gonna end well. By the end of the turn, I had my general, 4 elementals and 7 lands. Oh, and a Marit Lage.
Don't accept the offer.
This sounds familiar, from the edh event/tourney thing at The Games Shop yesterday?
Haha, indeed it was
I wish people would accept my tempts when I play them in Titania, but took it out as no one ever did and there were lower cmc cards for fetching my cradle and/or nykthos, my favourite being Realms Uncharted, especially if my next play that turn is tilling treefolk.
I still like Tempt without people accepting (and Reap and Sow) as they get any land into play (and it's even untapped). AFAIK, the only lower CMC option that does that is Crop Rotation. Half the time I find myself grabbing a fetchland with them rather than the really explosive stuff - if I've gone something like T1 land, T2 land, Nature's Lore, T3 land without any of said lands being a fetch, then Tempting for one guarantees me a T4 Titania with something to recurr in the yard (so more ramp and an elemental). Which is not bad start, even if it's not quite as explosive as when people take you up on the offer.
Keep thinking Tempt is 4 cmc for some reason, there are a couple of options at <3CMC though, 1 being crop rotation as you mentioned and the other being Sylvan Scrying at 1G. It doesn't put it straight into play, but is still a cheap option for fetching it.
Planning to stick tempt back in either way as apparently one of the people I often play with is taking them now (Arcum, who you played vs in round 3 which I assume is the round you mentioned previously?).
Also, have you got a deck list to hand? Meant to ask again after round 3 but it slipped my mind.
Yeah, Sylvan Scrying can get any land to hand, but I've found I'm happy to pay a couple extra mana to put it into play, particularly in the earlier part of the game when ramp is key (as an aside, part of me really wishes I could try PrimeTime in this deck...).
It was actually the second round they accepted the tempt. Can't remember if I cast it in the last one (it was a pretty long game with plenty of last minutes counter/removal from everyone), but if I did, they didn't take any extras. The advantage of getting land into play with these spells really shone in that game though - I didn't have any of my extra land drop stuff in play, but I did have Reap and Sow in hand when I drew my Dark Depths. which meant I could get my 20/20 indestructible flyer out that turn (which promptly got fed into a Greater Good, drawing me into a Concordant Crossroads, I had a land sac card and a Gaea's Cradle in play, and Hoofy in hand, so...).
I'm at work now, but I'll try to remember to get my decklist put up somewhere this evening.
When I cast Tempt for Vengeance in my Wort deck there are 100% times you should take it and 100% times you should not, often however you do not know which situation you are sitting in.
If for example I set X to a number that if everyone takes the tempt the total number of creatures is over the number of cards in my library then I can't cast The Great Aurora without killing myself.
A tempt is sometimes that a tempt at how good is my hand beyond the tempt
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The draw with these cards is that they get better as your opponents get worse. And you usually do not KNOW you are one of the problem players. If you think that accepting a Tempting Offer is good value because you get something for nothing, then you are fooling yourself. Now if you can look at your opponents field, their hand, their deck, and your own situation and can gauge the risk of giving the caster more value, then maybe it's worth it.
The risk with these cards is that the opponent's deck is usually designed to abuse the resources that the Tempting Offer provides, while your deck may not be. One land for you may be good, but a land synergy of 2-4 high quality lands is probably much better for your opponent.
Rule of Thumb - Don't accept the Offer. (exclusions apply)
When the Tempting Offer cards first came out, Sylvan Primordial was still legal. I was talking with my playgroup and said (edited to make it more PG):
"Tempt with Reflections on Sylvan Primordial goes as follows: 'I get to have the best [day] of my life, and I get to punch each of you in the face. In return, you each may have the best [day] of your life, and punch each of your opponents in the face. But, for each of you who does, I get to have the best [day] of my life again, and punch each of you in the face again.'"
I think the problem is basically what is called tragedy of the commons. Basically, it is (often) in peoples interest to take the offer, since it is often the case that you can get just as much out of it as the player playing it. Hence, it is in your personal interest to take it but also that none else does. In some sense, everybody should take it, because of the following reason: if you are the last to pick, you should take it if it helps you more than the player playing it. Similarly, the second last should take it, since the last will anyway, and you will get more out of it when the difference for the player playin it. And so on. Thus everybody takes the offer, assuming it was locally an advantage, and they are better off than changing it, even knowing how everybody else picked.
That said, I personly do not take these kinds of offers.
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"Hail to the speaker, hail to the knower; joy to he who has understood, delight to they who have listened." - Odin
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Rather than saying experienced players would ALWAYS decline the offer, I'd say an experienced player would 'weigh' the offer more carefully. The opponent who offers would always get extra benefit, but you still have cards in hand/grave/library that may turn the table despite their advantage.
For example, why refuse a Tempt with Vengeance when you know you could Cyclonic Rift their entire board during combat?
The same could be said about Tempt with Immortality, which REQUIRES its caster to put a creature (or more) into play from graveyard, Containment Priest suddenly becomes a political tool where you could encourage everyone else on the table to bring back a harmless creature just so you could exile that many more creatures from the Tempter's arsenal.
And this.
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Take the damn tempts or don't take them. But anyone just refusing them on principle is someone I'd rather see at a different game table than my own.
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Ho ho, I beg to differ, my good chum.
Taking the offer of a Tempt with Discovery from the group hug player got me a Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle, which subsequently let me win the game after a Collective Voyage for sixteen Mountains (flashing in Dictate of the Twin Gods made each player extra dead). It was beautiful.
Depends who casts it. Not every player is that evil. Sure cabal coffers, Urborg and vesuva may be painful but it is far form the worst option. Besides you can get use to certain decks and know just what they have in store. My brother plays Tempt with Discoery, he only plays forests.
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What it usually comes down to is people's general inability to delay gratification. When it comes at the expense of everyone else, a lot of people (myself included) find it pretty annoying.
Another example: someone casts Maralen of the Mornsong. Player A fetches Sol Ring instead of a kill spell. Player B fetches a Lightning Greaves instead of a kill spell. Player C doesn't want to fall behind (or in my case, wants everyone to learn a lesson), so he fetches a Vandalblast instead of a kill spell. Maralen player gets Stranglehold and everyone loses. If Player A would just kill the Maralen then there would be no issue, but that "tempting offer"...
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Now I'll take those odds. If I wiff or fail to go off will he win? Most likely but I don't really care I weighed the odds and found if I did not I would have a higher chance of losing anyway. While I'm sure many players make the wrong decision taking the position of always paying for study or never accepting and offer is a poor one. Just like any other choice in magic you weigh the pros and the cons of each action try and read the players etc. I think tempt is actually a very interesting card strip mines been mentioned but people forget they can target anyone the scariest tempting offer to me is one that reads " hey let's strip mine/ wasteland all of moxnix' lands" on the flip side to that argument if I was to cast this spell and reveal a cradle with 7 bodies out is it worth stripping the cradle if it means I get to untap it with a deserted temple in response and combo kill you? I love how many ways cards like this can play out. Just like any other decision tree you just have to weigh your odds and make your play and while I'm sure this SCD was targeting at many players making the wrong decision it's simply a poor point of view to ALWAYS choose one way. These effects really do shine in multiplayer where traditionally cards like browbeat and vexing devil etc have been seen as poor due to your opponent choosing a card like rhystic study is not only amplified by the number of players but the setting and greed of ones own chances of winning will often pay huge dividends to those who play them. Magic is a complex game everything matters I personally hate simple answers to questions like "how many lands should I run" then with no other information at all people give answers like "37 lands seems good"
I remember a game I played on mtgo vs meal storm wanderer I doubted he played free counters and cast brainstorm and other cantrips into his consecrated Sphinx to build his hand for my windfall I let him draw almost his entire deck off that windfall but he had no force of will and I killed the table. Not everything is as simple as it seems
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As for accepting other people's offers, I usually only will if I need a Bojuka Bog to shut down the reanimator deck or just one more land to win. Other than that, it's just not worth it.
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Don't accept the offer.
Haha, indeed it was
I still like Tempt without people accepting (and Reap and Sow) as they get any land into play (and it's even untapped). AFAIK, the only lower CMC option that does that is Crop Rotation. Half the time I find myself grabbing a fetchland with them rather than the really explosive stuff - if I've gone something like T1 land, T2 land, Nature's Lore, T3 land without any of said lands being a fetch, then Tempting for one guarantees me a T4 Titania with something to recurr in the yard (so more ramp and an elemental). Which is not bad start, even if it's not quite as explosive as when people take you up on the offer.
Yeah, Sylvan Scrying can get any land to hand, but I've found I'm happy to pay a couple extra mana to put it into play, particularly in the earlier part of the game when ramp is key (as an aside, part of me really wishes I could try PrimeTime in this deck...).
It was actually the second round they accepted the tempt. Can't remember if I cast it in the last one (it was a pretty long game with plenty of last minutes counter/removal from everyone), but if I did, they didn't take any extras. The advantage of getting land into play with these spells really shone in that game though - I didn't have any of my extra land drop stuff in play, but I did have Reap and Sow in hand when I drew my Dark Depths. which meant I could get my 20/20 indestructible flyer out that turn (which promptly got fed into a Greater Good, drawing me into a Concordant Crossroads, I had a land sac card and a Gaea's Cradle in play, and Hoofy in hand, so...).
I'm at work now, but I'll try to remember to get my decklist put up somewhere this evening.
When I cast Tempt for Vengeance in my Wort deck there are 100% times you should take it and 100% times you should not, often however you do not know which situation you are sitting in.
If for example I set X to a number that if everyone takes the tempt the total number of creatures is over the number of cards in my library then I can't cast The Great Aurora without killing myself.
A tempt is sometimes that a tempt at how good is my hand beyond the tempt
The draw with these cards is that they get better as your opponents get worse. And you usually do not KNOW you are one of the problem players. If you think that accepting a Tempting Offer is good value because you get something for nothing, then you are fooling yourself. Now if you can look at your opponents field, their hand, their deck, and your own situation and can gauge the risk of giving the caster more value, then maybe it's worth it.
The risk with these cards is that the opponent's deck is usually designed to abuse the resources that the Tempting Offer provides, while your deck may not be. One land for you may be good, but a land synergy of 2-4 high quality lands is probably much better for your opponent.
Rule of Thumb - Don't accept the Offer. (exclusions apply)
"Tempt with Reflections on Sylvan Primordial goes as follows: 'I get to have the best [day] of my life, and I get to punch each of you in the face. In return, you each may have the best [day] of your life, and punch each of your opponents in the face. But, for each of you who does, I get to have the best [day] of my life again, and punch each of you in the face again.'"
Tempting Offer is not worth accepting.
That said, I personly do not take these kinds of offers.
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Take the offer, get Wasteland, Relic of Progenitus the land away?
Accept Tempt, with one more land than I should have proceed to win the game on my turn?