An easy design for at least one of the Commanders is to "reprint" the original Nephilim, but update their names, and some abilities to flesh out the other colors more, maybe even change creature types, and of course, make the legendary. It would kinda fill the reprint Commander slot that the decks have, and allow people who built decks off of the original Nephilim to run the new guys in their place.
On the subject of having some of them designed similarly to Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, I'm fine with designs like those, but only if we get legitimately 4 colored commanders as well, and if they also at least require 3 colors to use them effectively.
Creating a 4-color legendary creature in non-story-related pre-con seems very sudden. Without some backing story or mythos from our primary arch, we don't really know why these creatures are ignoring a specific color of mana.
If I weren't broke, I'd bet money that one of the legends in each deck will be a new version of each of the Nephilim. (So you've have Ink-Treader Nephilim as a non-legendary creature, and then "Ink Treader Nephilim 2.0" as a legendary creature in the deck.)
Iirc only two of them are "alive." Niv offed two Rakdos killed another in the original Ravnica story.
I don't think they would resurrect a story side-creature. They did a great reference with Feldon since (i believe) he was never reported dead. Freyalise sac'ed herself, but was a pre-mending planeswalker, so god knows what's up with her sustainability. But these guys were nearly-mindless entities without much backstory, and a non-dragonlord and crazy demon were able to kill them.
If all five of these guys are resurrected then I would most likely just have more emo-grumps over them making Daretti over Slobad (a "dead" planeswalker).
The Commander decks don't take place within the "current" storyline time frame. C14 showed us that clear as day. Maro has also said before that the Nephilim should have been printed as legendary creatures, but there were so many legends in Ravnica already, and the legend-heavy Kamigawa did poorly in part because of so many legends, the Nephilim got pushed out. If they were to ever correct the mistake with the Nephilim, it would be in C16.
To be fair, all of the C14 Planeswalker commanders (excluding Daretti) were meant to be references to those character's past powers. Same with new legends that weren't Gisa and Geralf. That's why Teferi was still a planeswalker, Freyalise and Jazal weren't dead, Ob Nixilis wasn't (physically) a demon, etc.
The more I think about it, the more I believe it's going to be a twist on the Transform mechanic. An example would be a WU creature on one side and a RG creature on the other, with abilities appropriate to each colour combo (possibly complementing each other) and a way to transform the card.
It gives you enough space on the card to let each colour combo do its own thing. The Theros update to the Legend Rule and the singleton nature of the format means it is far less likely your commander will die to Legend Rule state-based effects.
Actually, I wouldn't mind seeing the new phyrexia praetors being printed here. They are all warped due to their respective mana "sun," and were already prone to alliances. Being exposed to intense mana from neighboring suns would make for a pretty neat theme for each praetor to build around. Sheoldred and Urabrask had their regions wrecked so it is very likely that they (and everyone on the fake plane) would continue to migrate and evolve.
That is interesting. I can't help but feel the 4-color legends are going to be more like Tazri or Alesha than any of the nephilim.
As others point out, landbases are likely to be rough without lots of hybrid... one or more decks featuring Price of Progress would be hysterical, though unlikely.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
I'm going to save final judgment til the cards are spoiled but will say there are a ton of ally color legends already. I'd much rather see this. Anyone who wants to just use a bunch of colors for good stuff already has 5 color legends for thst. This isn't enabling anything that people can't already do and has potential for some really cool cards that could have a focused theme if done right.
Also, 4 or 5 colors is not all gravy either. There are legit disadvantages to needing that mUchiha colored mana, not to mention cards like bloodmoon.
I am cautiously optimistic about this. Much like many others, the ally colors were the expected move... it's nice to be thrown a curveball every now and then.
Many different ways for a card to have a four-color identity, let's hope they utilize many of them
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
X Hope of Ghirapur Swordpile W Ghosty Blinky Anafenza U Nezahal- Big, Blue and HERE! B Gonti Can Afford It R Etali, Primal 'Whatjusthappened?' G Polukranos Wants More Mana WU The Exalted Vizier Temmet WB Home, Athreos WR Basandra, Recursive Aggression WG Karametra, Momma of Lands UB Wrexial Eats Your Brains UR Arjun, the Mad Flame UG The Fable of Prime Speaker BR Hellbent, Malfegor Style BG Jarad, Death is Served RG Running Thromok WUB Varina and ALL the Zombies WUBYennett, the Odd Pain-Train WUR Zedruu the Furyhearted WUG Arcades' Strategy, Shmategy, Sausage and Spam WBR A Case of Mathas' Persistent F*ckery WBRLicia's League of Legendary Lifegain Layabouts WBG The Karador Advantage PackageWRG Gahiji Rattlesnake Collection UBR Jeleva... does... things UBG Damia's Just Deserts URG Yasova's Has More Power Than Sense BRG Wasitora, Bad Kitty WUBRBreya, Eggs, Breya'd Eggs WUBG Tymna and Kydele, Extended Borrowing WURG Kynaios and Tiro, Landfall Impersonations WBRG Saskia Pet Card EnchantressUBRG Yidris of the Chi-Ting Corporation WUBRG Tazri's Amazing Allies
It'll be cool if they do this right. They could conceivably do an enemy pair, friendly pair, a shard, a wedge, and 4 colors on one commander using something like (R/W)(G/U)2 or (R/W)(2/G)(2/U). What can I say, I like flexibility.
Not going to lie. I'm really not looking forward to these. Odd are this will be the one of the very few, if not only, time they do 4-color legends. If they suck, then they'll suck for a very long time. I'd rather them not make these than risk them messing it up and us still not having a good option for 4-color decks.
I like the idea of 4-color, but I feel that the design really needs to show that it's lacking that 5th color. However, I just don't feel this to be possible really. I think it would require a bit too much text to properly show that lack of a 5th color.
I'm incredibly psyched about this announcement! Four-color commanders are a novelty we've never truly had access to as commanders before. If Wizards pulls off this difficult stunt (which I trust they will) then EDH should be all the richer for it.
My one wish for this product is that at least one cycle of four-color legends legitimately costs all four colors of mana. It would be a total cop out for Wizards to print these commanders in the same vein as Tasigur, the Golden Fang or as some goofy four-color transform creature that coincidentally happens to be four colors. If Wizards is going to print four-color legends, please give me authentic ones; not one, two, or three color legends that are just riding the color identity rule into four-colordom!
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WUBRGMr. Bones' Wild RideGRBUW Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
Not going to lie. I'm really not looking forward to these. Odd are this will be the one of the very few, if not only, time they do 4-color legends. If they suck, then they'll suck for a very long time. I'd rather them not make these than risk them messing it up and us still not having a good option for 4-color decks.
I like the idea of 4-color, but I feel that the design really needs to show that it's lacking that 5th color. However, I just don't feel this to be possible really. I think it would require a bit too much text to properly show that lack of a 5th color.
So, you want them to not make them, because we don't have any and if they make these and they're bad we won't have any for a long time? With that logic they should never mKe them and we'd never have any 4 color options, lol.
They have to make them some time. And having AN option is better than no option.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
This is very much a checklist decision. People have been asking for 4C commanders, so now there will be some, despite the fact that four colors don't really have a ton of unique design space.
That being said, I'm sure they wouldn't do it if they didn't have some good ideas for it, and I look forward to seeing what they've come up with.
I want updated legendary nephilim as one of the new commanders for each deck. it was a crime they weren't legendary the first time around. I am confident they can come up with better second drafts of these things. haters gonna hate, but nephilim were the original eldrazi (they were from a time before the existence of the guildpact, worshipped as 'old gods', and they were trapped underground until they got awoken by disturbances at the surface, sound familiar?) and they deserve your respect.
I can see this working very well, and bombing horribly.
10 to one says they reprint the nephlims
Also betting that the commanders will not be 4 color mana cost, but instea similar to the khans cards. mon colored general with 3 differnt abilities in teh text box.
This is very much a checklist decision. People have been asking for 4C commanders, so now there will be some, despite the fact that four colors don't really have a ton of unique design space.
That being said, I'm sure they wouldn't do it if they didn't have some good ideas for it, and I look forward to seeing what they've come up with.
Chances are they are going to be very mana heavy spells, but do a lot. Think the Commands, but instead of chooing two they do all 4.
I see spell like this appearing
XWUBR
Instant
-But X 1/1 White soldier tokens into play
-Counter target spell with CMC of X or less
-Destroy target creature with converted mana cost of X or less
-Deal X damage to target creature or Player.
Throw flavor out the window and make it work. this why i feel it will bomb.
Yeah, I'm definitely predicting that, however they do it, we are not going to see the headline commanders for the decks actually be single faced cards with four different mana symbols in their casting cost. I think it would be really neat if they made it so the generals actually had mono-color casting costs and then a mix of abilities expanding their identity.
Like, say a general that cost 2G and then had two activated abilities, one that cost RB(or even R/B hybrid) and one that cost RW (or R/W hybrid). This would help solve the manabase problems by allowing the deck to be primarily Green, with Red as a second colour and then White and Black splashes. It also makes it A LOT easier to make the creature feel on-flavour colour wise. It's a green creature so it gets Trample or something and then each of its abilities just needs to be appropriate to the colour pair in its cost with a bit of a green twist.
The other option that seems likely is them printing double-faced cards that you can cast from either side (and that may or may not have a transform mechanic). This would be a super weird rules nightmare in a Standard legal set, but they could do it here. I'm not a big fan of DFC in general, but I could be happy with them in this context as generals specifically.
I'm also predicting that we get exact functional reprints of the 5 nephilim with the only changes being new names, Legendary supertype, and possibly different creature types for flavour reasons. It would be very weird after all this time to finally make these decks and not include the nephilim in them. At the same time, it would be a slap in the face to just reprint the non-legendary nephilim in the 99. And I really don't see them taking this opportunity to errata the Legendary supertype on to the existing nephilim. So Legendary functional reprints seems like the only good road forward.
Yeah, I'm definitely predicting that, however they do it, we are not going to see the headline commanders for the decks actually be single faced cards with four different mana symbols in their casting cost. I think it would be really neat if they made it so the generals actually had mono-color casting costs and then a mix of abilities expanding their identity.
Like, say a general that cost 2G and then had two activated abilities, one that cost RB(or even R/B hybrid) and one that cost RW (or R/W hybrid). This would help solve the manabase problems by allowing the deck to be primarily Green, with Red as a second colour and then White and Black splashes. It also makes it A LOT easier to make the creature feel on-flavour colour wise. It's a green creature so it gets Trample or something and then each of its abilities just needs to be appropriate to the colour pair in its cost with a bit of a green twist.
The other option that seems likely is them printing double-faced cards that you can cast from either side (and that may or may not have a transform mechanic). This would be a super weird rules nightmare in a Standard legal set, but they could do it here. I'm not a big fan of DFC in general, but I could be happy with them in this context as generals specifically.
I'm also predicting that we get exact functional reprints of the 5 nephilim with the only changes being new names, Legendary supertype, and possibly different creature types for flavour reasons. It would be very weird after all this time to finally make these decks and not include the nephilim in them. At the same time, it would be a slap in the face to just reprint the non-legendary nephilim in the 99. And I really don't see them taking this opportunity to errata the Legendary supertype on to the existing nephilim. So Legendary functional reprints seems like the only good road forward.
plus only 2 of the 5 nephlims are viable, and none of the feel like they belong to the color pie, (one color feels completely out of place if not two or three.
for example.
Dune-brood, Black and red feel out of place
Giant-Eye, Green and Red feel out of place
Ink-Treader, Green and white feel out of place
Witch-maw, Blue feels out of place (and black sort of does, it feels more like a red ability)
Yore-Tiller, Red needs to be green in this one, it is the only one that feels right, which is why it is my favorite.
As fro double faced, i like that a lot actually. Makes t easier to cast and allows you to switch it up. UB, draw card when it ETB. GW Pump creatures with an activated ability. Cover your weaknesses, fuel and then pump with the fuel.
The errata to the rules for Table-top and eternal formats will be mentally traumatizing but it will work.
And I really don't see them taking this opportunity to errata the Legendary supertype on to the existing nephilim.
Why not? Seems like the obvious way to do it to me.
There will be a lot more players picking up the commander printing than players who had ever seen or heard of the nephilim cycle before.
I guess mostly because if they wanted to errata Legendary onto the nephilim they could have done so at any time and there was no good reason to wait until now. Although I can see that it might be more palatable to do so when they are also taking the opportunity to print versions of the cards that actually say "Legendary" on the cardboard.
On the subject of having some of them designed similarly to Alesha, Who Smiles at Death, I'm fine with designs like those, but only if we get legitimately 4 colored commanders as well, and if they also at least require 3 colors to use them effectively.
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I don't think they would resurrect a story side-creature. They did a great reference with Feldon since (i believe) he was never reported dead. Freyalise sac'ed herself, but was a pre-mending planeswalker, so god knows what's up with her sustainability. But these guys were nearly-mindless entities without much backstory, and a non-dragonlord and crazy demon were able to kill them.
If all five of these guys are resurrected then I would most likely just have more emo-grumps over them making Daretti over Slobad (a "dead" planeswalker).
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It gives you enough space on the card to let each colour combo do its own thing. The Theros update to the Legend Rule and the singleton nature of the format means it is far less likely your commander will die to Legend Rule state-based effects.
Still skeptical.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
My first thought was "Like Alesha with trample and/or hexproof". Four colors easily represented.
Edit: someone above mentioned flip cards that represent two colors on each side. I can actually see that working really well.
I'm going to save final judgment til the cards are spoiled but will say there are a ton of ally color legends already. I'd much rather see this. Anyone who wants to just use a bunch of colors for good stuff already has 5 color legends for thst. This isn't enabling anything that people can't already do and has potential for some really cool cards that could have a focused theme if done right.
Also, 4 or 5 colors is not all gravy either. There are legit disadvantages to needing that mUchiha colored mana, not to mention cards like bloodmoon.
Many different ways for a card to have a four-color identity, let's hope they utilize many of them
I like the idea of 4-color, but I feel that the design really needs to show that it's lacking that 5th color. However, I just don't feel this to be possible really. I think it would require a bit too much text to properly show that lack of a 5th color.
WBG Karador, Ghost Chieftain
B Toshiro Umezawa
BG Pharika, God of Affliction - Necromancy and Politics
WWW The Church of Heliod
WBR Zurgo, Helmsmasher
RG Wort, the Raidmother
UBR Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
UG Vorel of the Hull Clade
My one wish for this product is that at least one cycle of four-color legends legitimately costs all four colors of mana. It would be a total cop out for Wizards to print these commanders in the same vein as Tasigur, the Golden Fang or as some goofy four-color transform creature that coincidentally happens to be four colors. If Wizards is going to print four-color legends, please give me authentic ones; not one, two, or three color legends that are just riding the color identity rule into four-colordom!
Trap your friends in an endless game with this 23-card combo!
So, you want them to not make them, because we don't have any and if they make these and they're bad we won't have any for a long time? With that logic they should never mKe them and we'd never have any 4 color options, lol.
They have to make them some time. And having AN option is better than no option.
That being said, I'm sure they wouldn't do it if they didn't have some good ideas for it, and I look forward to seeing what they've come up with.
10 to one says they reprint the nephlims
Also betting that the commanders will not be 4 color mana cost, but instea similar to the khans cards. mon colored general with 3 differnt abilities in teh text box.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Chances are they are going to be very mana heavy spells, but do a lot. Think the Commands, but instead of chooing two they do all 4.
I see spell like this appearing
XWUBR
Instant
-But X 1/1 White soldier tokens into play
-Counter target spell with CMC of X or less
-Destroy target creature with converted mana cost of X or less
-Deal X damage to target creature or Player.
Throw flavor out the window and make it work. this why i feel it will bomb.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
Like, say a general that cost 2G and then had two activated abilities, one that cost RB(or even R/B hybrid) and one that cost RW (or R/W hybrid). This would help solve the manabase problems by allowing the deck to be primarily Green, with Red as a second colour and then White and Black splashes. It also makes it A LOT easier to make the creature feel on-flavour colour wise. It's a green creature so it gets Trample or something and then each of its abilities just needs to be appropriate to the colour pair in its cost with a bit of a green twist.
The other option that seems likely is them printing double-faced cards that you can cast from either side (and that may or may not have a transform mechanic). This would be a super weird rules nightmare in a Standard legal set, but they could do it here. I'm not a big fan of DFC in general, but I could be happy with them in this context as generals specifically.
I'm also predicting that we get exact functional reprints of the 5 nephilim with the only changes being new names, Legendary supertype, and possibly different creature types for flavour reasons. It would be very weird after all this time to finally make these decks and not include the nephilim in them. At the same time, it would be a slap in the face to just reprint the non-legendary nephilim in the 99. And I really don't see them taking this opportunity to errata the Legendary supertype on to the existing nephilim. So Legendary functional reprints seems like the only good road forward.
Why not? Seems like the obvious way to do it to me.
There will be a lot more players picking up the commander printing than players who had ever seen or heard of the nephilim cycle before.
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plus only 2 of the 5 nephlims are viable, and none of the feel like they belong to the color pie, (one color feels completely out of place if not two or three.
for example.
Dune-brood, Black and red feel out of place
Giant-Eye, Green and Red feel out of place
Ink-Treader, Green and white feel out of place
Witch-maw, Blue feels out of place (and black sort of does, it feels more like a red ability)
Yore-Tiller, Red needs to be green in this one, it is the only one that feels right, which is why it is my favorite.
As fro double faced, i like that a lot actually. Makes t easier to cast and allows you to switch it up. UB, draw card when it ETB. GW Pump creatures with an activated ability. Cover your weaknesses, fuel and then pump with the fuel.
The errata to the rules for Table-top and eternal formats will be mentally traumatizing but it will work.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I guess mostly because if they wanted to errata Legendary onto the nephilim they could have done so at any time and there was no good reason to wait until now. Although I can see that it might be more palatable to do so when they are also taking the opportunity to print versions of the cards that actually say "Legendary" on the cardboard.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist