Down with playing against Ali, but I'd still like to be asked before the game starts. I'll echo the rest of the thread and say that you should have a backup in case you run into someone who isn't cool with it.
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We're allowing our friend to play Elbrus, the Binding Blade as his commander for a mono-black deck. Just another reason having a fun, understanding group of regulars is better than playing with strangers every time . . . at least in my opinion.
I would be fine with it but I know my group would not be. There are also other non legends I would allow. Like the nephilims.
There are also some other cards I would allow as a general but be more incline to say no to.
For all non legen LD generals though I treat them as such. Cards that effect legends effect them. Cards that do not effect legends do not effect them and if there is more than 1 under your contro . Legend rule.
What? An exception to the rules in a casual format based on Vorthosian flavor and nostalgia?
I'd even allow it if Ali was half of a degenerate combo which he certainly is not.
Could there have been two men named Ali in Cairo? Could one person have two uncles named Istvan? Sure these things are possible. It's also possible that two powerful commanders run into each other and don't try to bash one another with flaming swords and spells that rip flesh off but we don't play that game, these are some of magic's earliest legends from a flavor perspective. Who is Tobias Andrion? Idk, but I know I've been disappointed to see him in my booster, and I know I've never seen him across the table. Just because they call certain creatures legendary doesn't make them epic to me, and just because they don't call them legend doesn't mean you can't build a flavorful deck for them and have a blast with friends.
The one I'd build if I could is Tamanoa.
There's only one Tamanoa, it came to exist after a planeswalker did a thing. Akroma is a legend and wasn't even created by a planeswalker. So what's up with that?
I'd also accept any similar named creatures pre legend rule, flip creatures who become legendary( because they probably became legendary after commanding a long time),
creatures there are only one of in the lore/unique like all of the nephilim (there is only one of each), Keeper of Tresserhorn was all by himself forever, etc
Some goofy stuff too like Avatar of Me or Personal Incarnation.
I would not except Elbrus unless you could explain to me how a knife is leading a military force.
Also, how many Secrets were delved for that produced an insect hybrid thing?
So, Konda's dog has enough notoriety to lead a commander deck, but not say Teeka's Dragon if we're doing pets, or Laquatus's Champion (even though every other pit fighter champion is a legend, even several never mentioned in the books)?
Old-school cool points for anyone wanting to play Ali as a general. I'd give the idea a thumbs-up for sure. These days it seems the only red generals I ever see anyone but me play are Feldon, Daretti, Kiki-Jiki and Purphoros, so I'd be absolutely overjoyed for someone to want to play Ali.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I would not except Elbrus unless you could explain to me how a knife is leading a military force.
Something in the vein of the One Ring, Elbrus exerts Withengar's sinister influence upon people and events so that it/his desires may come to pass, usually in the form of freeing himself. Maybe the army knows why the hold the blade precious. Maybe they do not. All they truly know is that they do. That's how I'd angle it at least.
EDIT: Now I'm going to build this because why not?
I would not except Elbrus unless you could explain to me how a knife is leading a military force.
Something in the vein of the One Ring, Elbrus exerts Withengar's sinister influence upon people and events so that it/his desires may come to pass, usually in the form of freeing himself. Maybe the army knows why the hold the blade precious. Maybe they do not. All they truly know is that they do. That's how I'd angle it at least.
EDIT: Now I'm going to build this because why not?
That's more or less how I've seen people build Elbrus. Put in a lot of creatures with fear/intimidate so you can get damage in, then flip the sword.
I've also seen it in demon tribal decks, which tend to suck for lack of playable, low-cost demons.
I pretty much approve of the same guidelines many others here have stated:
1) Always ask the group you are playing with first.
2) Prepare a backup Commander (that fits the actual guidelines) that can operate in place of the intended Commander.
3) I also think it would be wise to state why you're playing the card as your Commander, with that "It was my first card" reasoning, it might convince some people who usually don't approve of "Alternate Commanders" to let this pass.
Just as a direct answer, I personally have no problem with Ali from Cairo in particular, as long as it's a casual game (I have stricter standards if there were prizes involved, because flavor/reasons can be created almost for anything).
When I had a Grixis deck with Thraximundar back then, Unscythe, Killer of Kings was the "Alternate Commander", although I think people just approved because they didn't want to keep seeing Thraximundar.
Yeah, I can't imagine anyone reasonable objecting outside of a structured tournament with official rules and prized. It's not like you're asking to make Sol Ring your commander.
And to further echo everyone else, the only thing that would ever annoy me about it would be if you just sat down and expected to be able to play it without getting the okay of the table. Asking, and saying that you have an alternate commander in the 99 (Jaya Ballard, Task Mage is a great pick), would put me right at ease and would also provide an out for when you run into the odd unreasonable stickler.
If someone sat down to play against me with ali as general, that would be awesome.
I had a recurring nightmare/survival of the fittest deck that had ali (and worship) in it, and most games involved me quickly going down to 1 life and staying there. Nothing's funner than playing magic when you have 1 life.
Just as a direct answer, I personally have no problem with Ali from Cairo in particular, as long as it's a casual game (I have stricter standards if there were prizes involved, because flavor/reasons can be created almost for anything).
If prices were involved you wouldn't have problems with Ali from Cairo being a Commander. If prices were high enough you would encourage people to play him by giving free copies away! (I love hyperboles!)
Just as a direct answer, I personally have no problem with Ali from Cairo in particular, as long as it's a casual game (I have stricter standards if there were prizes involved, because flavor/reasons can be created almost for anything).
If prices were involved you wouldn't have problems with Ali from Cairo being a Commander. If prices were high enough you would encourage people to play him by giving free copies away! (I love hyperboles!)
I'm not sure if I phrased it wrongly or not, but I simply meant that if there are prizes involved (which means that game is most likely organized by a store), I won't approve of Ali from Cairo as a Commander, hence the stricter standards when it comes to "prizes-involved" - There's no hyperbole here, nothing wrong with following the letter of the law when it comes to games with prizes involved and being more accepting of house-ruling for casual games (and just to clarify, I don't classify any game with Prizes involved to be casual).
not to start a disagreement, but your comment on archangel really isn't the same thing as my point about Ali.
Ali is a named character. for nearly all of Magic as a game, named characters have been legendary, more often than not to solve the issue of more than one being on the battlefield at once on your side of the battlefield (or on both, before the rules change).
maelstrom archangel is just a broadly generic kind of angel, probably from a "maelstrom". there could be many of them. she doesn't have a name, and isn't a distinctive singular person in the lore of magic.
so yeah... i mean. it definitely fits with the lore/flavour/spirit of EDH, so i don't think anyone could complain on those grounds to Ali as a commander, but if you were to rules-lawyer on a technicality then yes, technically he's not a legal choice.
there may be other named characters from magic's past... i'm thinking Uncle Istvan is one of them, that need to be credited or erratad to be legendary.
but the question still stands - would it actually bother you in any way shape or form if I pulled Ali out of my deckbox? i'm guessing not, but i'd like to gauge the community on this matter because I could be on the wrong side of the fence and people could be more rules-y than i'd previously thought.
i'd like to make it clear that I don't think it's in the spirit of the format to run Banned cards. They are banned for a reason. the format and its clear choices on restricted/banned cards are all in place to maximise fun - but as far as I can see, Ali seems to fall outside of this scenario and isn't a problem card.
I'd like to be asked first, but yes, I'd allow it. I get the argument for why Ali from Cairo is more deserving of legendary status than Maelstrom Archangel, but have been in groups that allowed Archangel on the basis that she feels close enough to legendary that they're willing to allow her as a general (And I have 5 different 5 color commanders if they refuse).
I was more just saying I feel similarly about a few cards, and others do too (People have mentioned the Nephilim, Chromanticore, Genju of the realms, and Elbrus).
not to start a disagreement, but your comment on archangel really isn't the same thing as my point about Ali.
Ali is a named character. for nearly all of Magic as a game, named characters have been legendary, more often than not to solve the issue of more than one being on the battlefield at once on your side of the battlefield (or on both, before the rules change).
maelstrom archangel is just a broadly generic kind of angel, probably from a "maelstrom". there could be many of them. she doesn't have a name, and isn't a distinctive singular person in the lore of magic.
so yeah... i mean. it definitely fits with the lore/flavour/spirit of EDH, so i don't think anyone could complain on those grounds to Ali as a commander, but if you were to rules-lawyer on a technicality then yes, technically he's not a legal choice.
there may be other named characters from magic's past... i'm thinking Uncle Istvan is one of them, that need to be credited or erratad to be legendary.
but the question still stands - would it actually bother you in any way shape or form if I pulled Ali out of my deckbox? i'm guessing not, but i'd like to gauge the community on this matter because I could be on the wrong side of the fence and people could be more rules-y than i'd previously thought.
i'd like to make it clear that I don't think it's in the spirit of the format to run Banned cards. They are banned for a reason. the format and its clear choices on restricted/banned cards are all in place to maximise fun - but as far as I can see, Ali seems to fall outside of this scenario and isn't a problem card.
I'd like to be asked first, but yes, I'd allow it. I get the argument for why Ali from Cairo is more deserving of legendary status than Maelstrom Archangel, but have been in groups that allowed Archangel on the basis that she feels close enough to legendary that they're willing to allow her as a general (And I have 5 different 5 color commanders if they refuse).
I was more just saying I feel similarly about a few cards, and others do too (People have mentioned the Nephilim, Chromanticore, Genju of the realms, and Elbrus).
Yeah elbrus should definitely be allowed. Such flavour!
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I'm really on the fence. On the one hand, you have a legitimate argument with pre-legendary creature cards. On the other hand, it'd probably lead to a long debate about specifically which non legendary cards get to be used as commanders, and which legendary non creatures get to be used. I'd like to see 4 color commanders, so you know who has my vote. Same with some of the creatures that flip into legendaries.
Having a "pre legendary era" exception list would be great as it opens up who you could use, not that the 800 or so we have now isn't enough.
Just as a direct answer, I personally have no problem with Ali from Cairo in particular, as long as it's a casual game (I have stricter standards if there were prizes involved, because flavor/reasons can be created almost for anything).
If prices were involved you wouldn't have problems with Ali from Cairo being a Commander. If prices were high enough you would encourage people to play him by giving free copies away! (I love hyperboles!)
I'm not sure if I phrased it wrongly or not, but I simply meant that if there are prizes involved (which means that game is most likely organized by a store), I won't approve of Ali from Cairo as a Commander, hence the stricter standards when it comes to "prizes-involved" - There's no hyperbole here, nothing wrong with following the letter of the law when it comes to games with prizes involved and being more accepting of house-ruling for casual games (and just to clarify, I don't classify any game with Prizes involved to be casual).
You phrased it absolutely right. I simply meant that if prices were involved you would probably be thankful for seeing Ali from Cairo rather than Daretti, Scrap Savant. I then made a hyperbole myself (which I love to do) that you should encourage this behaviour by giving free copies of Ali away, which is, of course, absurd given his price tag. God, a joke is not funny if you have to explain it. I'm sorry...
I think most people would be fine with ali as your general. that being said, it is probably a good idea for you to bring a stand-in general like Squee or something on the off-chance people in your playgroup kicked up a fuss. make sure you ask them before starting the game though!
i doubt anyone playing EDH would actually mind, since it is definitely within the 'flavour' of the card that ali should probably be legendary. Then again, no idea why uncle istvan isnt legendary either.
You phrased it absolutely right. I simply meant that if prices were involved you would probably be thankful for seeing Ali from Cairo rather than Daretti, Scrap Savant. I then made a hyperbole myself (which I love to do) that you should encourage this behaviour by giving free copies of Ali away, which is, of course, absurd given his price tag. God, a joke is not funny if you have to explain it. I'm sorry...
Sorry about that, jokes/sarcasm usually don't translate very well on the internet and I didn't quite catch it this time, because the direction of your hyperbole was different from mine (I wasn't thinking of more Ali of Cairo decks appearing, I was thinking the next few opponents showing up with Metalworkers and saying "I have the same reasons as the guy playing Ali from Cairo, so this deck is permitted" instead). So while I was mentally imagining a hyperbole in the power-scale level using the same story, I didn't quite grasp the direction you were going with yours.
("he got to play ali from cairo so why can't I run my nephilim -> he get to play nephilim so why can't i use my Havengul Lich deck -> that guy used Havengul Lich so why can't i run goblin welder as my general , it's practically the same thing)
This is people who have no sense of falvor, and care about winning, not having fun. Hardly the place to take a flavor queue from.
and after some time we've got a table full of legacy grade creatures as generals the flavor is nonexistant and meta is imbalanced.
No harm would come from such house rules if people didn't care about winning at all, this is never the case imho.
This just backs up my previous position. People can like to win, while still preserving flavor. Ali won't create some 'Legacy table' like you propose to the vast majority of groups, they would care about other's fun and recognize Ali as neither OP and psuedo-legendary.
My opinion may be biased though as all my playgroups are cutthroat arms race (and we like it that way) and we run strong 75% decks.
How is it an arms race AND 75%? That makes zero sense.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Question in somewhat the same vein. I've a friend I play with who wants to play Dark Depths as his commander in a mono brown deck. My play group is split in allowing it, but I don't see an issue. What do you guys and gals think of it?
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There are also some other cards I would allow as a general but be more incline to say no to.
For all non legen LD generals though I treat them as such. Cards that effect legends effect them. Cards that do not effect legends do not effect them and if there is more than 1 under your contro . Legend rule.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
I'd even allow it if Ali was half of a degenerate combo which he certainly is not.
Could there have been two men named Ali in Cairo? Could one person have two uncles named Istvan? Sure these things are possible. It's also possible that two powerful commanders run into each other and don't try to bash one another with flaming swords and spells that rip flesh off but we don't play that game, these are some of magic's earliest legends from a flavor perspective. Who is Tobias Andrion? Idk, but I know I've been disappointed to see him in my booster, and I know I've never seen him across the table. Just because they call certain creatures legendary doesn't make them epic to me, and just because they don't call them legend doesn't mean you can't build a flavorful deck for them and have a blast with friends.
The one I'd build if I could is Tamanoa.
There's only one Tamanoa, it came to exist after a planeswalker did a thing. Akroma is a legend and wasn't even created by a planeswalker. So what's up with that?
I'd also accept any similar named creatures pre legend rule, flip creatures who become legendary( because they probably became legendary after commanding a long time),
creatures there are only one of in the lore/unique like all of the nephilim (there is only one of each), Keeper of Tresserhorn was all by himself forever, etc
Some goofy stuff too like Avatar of Me or Personal Incarnation.
I would not except Elbrus unless you could explain to me how a knife is leading a military force.
Also, how many Secrets were delved for that produced an insect hybrid thing?
So, Konda's dog has enough notoriety to lead a commander deck, but not say Teeka's Dragon if we're doing pets, or Laquatus's Champion (even though every other pit fighter champion is a legend, even several never mentioned in the books)?
To the OP: Yea, I would not have an issue with it.
Something in the vein of the One Ring, Elbrus exerts Withengar's sinister influence upon people and events so that it/his desires may come to pass, usually in the form of freeing himself. Maybe the army knows why the hold the blade precious. Maybe they do not. All they truly know is that they do. That's how I'd angle it at least.
EDIT: Now I'm going to build this because why not?
That's more or less how I've seen people build Elbrus. Put in a lot of creatures with fear/intimidate so you can get damage in, then flip the sword.
I've also seen it in demon tribal decks, which tend to suck for lack of playable, low-cost demons.
1) Always ask the group you are playing with first.
2) Prepare a backup Commander (that fits the actual guidelines) that can operate in place of the intended Commander.
3) I also think it would be wise to state why you're playing the card as your Commander, with that "It was my first card" reasoning, it might convince some people who usually don't approve of "Alternate Commanders" to let this pass.
Just as a direct answer, I personally have no problem with Ali from Cairo in particular, as long as it's a casual game (I have stricter standards if there were prizes involved, because flavor/reasons can be created almost for anything).
When I had a Grixis deck with Thraximundar back then, Unscythe, Killer of Kings was the "Alternate Commander", although I think people just approved because they didn't want to keep seeing Thraximundar.
And to further echo everyone else, the only thing that would ever annoy me about it would be if you just sat down and expected to be able to play it without getting the okay of the table. Asking, and saying that you have an alternate commander in the 99 (Jaya Ballard, Task Mage is a great pick), would put me right at ease and would also provide an out for when you run into the odd unreasonable stickler.
I'd be excited to play against the deck, really.
I had a recurring nightmare/survival of the fittest deck that had ali (and worship) in it, and most games involved me quickly going down to 1 life and staying there. Nothing's funner than playing magic when you have 1 life.
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My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
If prices were involved you wouldn't have problems with Ali from Cairo being a Commander. If prices were high enough you would encourage people to play him by giving free copies away! (I love hyperboles!)
I'm not sure if I phrased it wrongly or not, but I simply meant that if there are prizes involved (which means that game is most likely organized by a store), I won't approve of Ali from Cairo as a Commander, hence the stricter standards when it comes to "prizes-involved" - There's no hyperbole here, nothing wrong with following the letter of the law when it comes to games with prizes involved and being more accepting of house-ruling for casual games (and just to clarify, I don't classify any game with Prizes involved to be casual).
I'd like to be asked first, but yes, I'd allow it. I get the argument for why Ali from Cairo is more deserving of legendary status than Maelstrom Archangel, but have been in groups that allowed Archangel on the basis that she feels close enough to legendary that they're willing to allow her as a general (And I have 5 different 5 color commanders if they refuse).
I was more just saying I feel similarly about a few cards, and others do too (People have mentioned the Nephilim, Chromanticore, Genju of the realms, and Elbrus).
Yeah elbrus should definitely be allowed. Such flavour!
Having a "pre legendary era" exception list would be great as it opens up who you could use, not that the 800 or so we have now isn't enough.
WUBRGReaper King - Superfriends
WUBRGChild of Alara - The Nauseating Aurora
WUBSharuum the Hegemon - Christmas In Prison
WUBZur the Enchanter - Ow My Face
WRJor Kadeen, the Prevailer - Snow Goats
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You phrased it absolutely right. I simply meant that if prices were involved you would probably be thankful for seeing Ali from Cairo rather than Daretti, Scrap Savant. I then made a hyperbole myself (which I love to do) that you should encourage this behaviour by giving free copies of Ali away, which is, of course, absurd given his price tag. God, a joke is not funny if you have to explain it. I'm sorry...
i doubt anyone playing EDH would actually mind, since it is definitely within the 'flavour' of the card that ali should probably be legendary. Then again, no idea why uncle istvan isnt legendary either.
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Sorry about that, jokes/sarcasm usually don't translate very well on the internet and I didn't quite catch it this time, because the direction of your hyperbole was different from mine (I wasn't thinking of more Ali of Cairo decks appearing, I was thinking the next few opponents showing up with Metalworkers and saying "I have the same reasons as the guy playing Ali from Cairo, so this deck is permitted" instead). So while I was mentally imagining a hyperbole in the power-scale level using the same story, I didn't quite grasp the direction you were going with yours.
This just backs up my previous position. People can like to win, while still preserving flavor. Ali won't create some 'Legacy table' like you propose to the vast majority of groups, they would care about other's fun and recognize Ali as neither OP and psuedo-legendary.
How is it an arms race AND 75%? That makes zero sense.
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