One of my friend resently build a mono black deck with Contamination and cards with effect similar to Bitterblossom and would like arguments to convice him to drop Contamination.
EDIT: All other people in our group play fair decks for fun games not ultra competitive Magic
"Arguments" aren't likely to work. I suggest coming to talk to him as a friend and describing how you feel.
"Hey, <Friend>, you've put together a very powerful deck. Contamination + Bitterblossom is a powerful combo that does a great job of locking the rest of the board out of playing the game. Thing is, we like to play at a more casual level, where everyone gets a chance to participate in the games and players don't end up spinning their wheels for multiple turns in a row trying to find a way to play around cards like Contamination. We'd appreciate it if you could find some other cards to play in your deck instead. Have you considered Dictate of Erebos? It's also a strong card with repeated token generation and sac fodder, and it helps you control the game, but it doesn't completely shut down the other players in the process."
Most of our playgroup, when something becomes obnoxious or promotes a game state where others don't get to participate, will call for a group vote. Leave thinges to democracy. If it's a playgroup that's considtent, then let a vote decide if something is considered fair or unfair among the majority.
As far as cards like contamination goes, there ARE ways to deal with it, but if you're deadset against it, I'd just have all those who are opposed to it remaining in just point out that it creates worse games overall. When only one person is allowed to actually play their deck and others are locked out of the game, it makes people less willing to actually play. There is a place in the format for super-competitive play, but it doesn't sound like your group is that. If you all just ask him to remove the issue and point out that you'd all just like to be able to play as well, I'm fairly certain he'll understand. If not, other options could be to just knock them out first each game or stop playing with them, but group votes on banning or polite discussions have always worked for my group .
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Vorthos-player with way too much time on his hands and a love of thematic decks.
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
I have it my mono-black but rarely pay even the first upkeep on it - I use it as a way to either bait counters, prevent counters or prevent others from game-braking plays until my next turn. Combining it with bitterblossom or Bloodghast could happen - but I try to personally avoid that.
There is a difference from your friend playing a mean deck that your table doesn't like, and your friend evolving into a player that builds stronger decks. It is best for everyone to become better players instead of rejecting a friends strong deck because of a few card interactions.
To be honest contamination isn't all that bad in a multi-player format. Once everyone is aware that an opponent runs that sort of thing, most typically include answers to the threat, and it becomes very easy to politic the game into the contamination player being the ArchEnemy.
Perhaps it is time for your table to also build a few "mean" decks to compete with his mono-black thing. Keep what decks you all have, and build yourself a mean one to play with on occasions. Explain that to your friend so he can also build a deck that is comparable to everyones current decks, so he doesnt always play the mono-black one.
It's a powerful combo, but I usually pack some colorless answer in my deck, such as All is Dust and Oblivion Stone, him playing mono black would have trouble preventing you from casting/activating those spells.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
You could build a mono-black deck each and whenever he pulls out his deck with that combo, you guys play your mono-B so the combo doesn't lock you out, but could help you by making your Ghost Quarters tap for B
For me at the moment getting rid of Contamination isn't that much of an issue since my primary deck these day is Alesha. And I don't want to build mean decks like Alesha, Who Smiles at Death + Avalanche Riders or Alesha + Master of Cruelties because it's hard to convince other players around who only play casual to start a commander deck when those are around.
'Run more answers' and 'you need artifact mana' are terrible repsonses if you read the OP. This is about ONE person who is not playing at the same level. the answer to that should not always be 'get up to that level', Wildfire is dead on.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
I recently made a 5-color sliver deck - it's got 10 dual lands, 10 fetches, various other expensive lands, and every game against my buddy's mono-red deck went like this:
Turn 1-2: he laid lands, mana rocks, and maybe casted gamble.
Turn 3: he casts blood moon (which completely shuts down my $2000 mana base) or ruination.
Clearly the card blood moon was making it unfun for me so here is what I said:
You're a douche for playing blood moon over and over, but I'm really glad you did because it pointed out a weakness in my deck. (And then I put in signets, talismans, etc to speed up the deck and survive blood moon easier).
It sounds like what the OP is saying is that he and the other players have been given an opportunity to evolve as players and learn how to deal with a problem, but they prefer to play badly instead and make a houserule preventing people from playing fair cards.
If contamination shuts you down, the problem isn't contamination, it's you.
If you have a problem with the card or combo being played, you can express your displeasure in playing against it, and often that's enough to convince someone to play something different.
If he's really the one's looking for reasons to take it out, as the first post suggests, then the only argument ever needed is "does it ruin your own fun." A lot of times when someone has a deck with a lot of cards they want to play and a few win conditions, one of those win conditions will be so much more efficient or oppressive that having it in the deck actively stops the player from enjoying the rest of the deck the way they want to. If this person finds that Contamination lock isn't how he wants to win and is effectively ending games before he can do what he wants to, he should absolutely stop playing it.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
"Evolution" isn't always the answer, Getting "better" does not always make games more fun or more interesting. Eveyone playing at the same power level does.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
if the rest of the group doesn't want to make an EDH arms race, then teching your decks up with contamination-hate, better artifact mana and all of that stuff probably isn't the way you'd wanna go.
instead, like mr wildfire, i'd probably suggest just talking to your mate as a mate, and just explain to him that the rest of the group isn't able to compete at that kinda level, and it'd be brilliant if he'd take it out of his deck/replace it with something less 'hard-lock'-like/try building a different deck.
if the rest of the group doesn't want to make an EDH arms race, then teching your decks up with contamination-hate, better artifact mana and all of that stuff probably isn't the way you'd wanna go.
instead, like mr wildfire, i'd probably suggest just talking to your mate as a mate, and just explain to him that the rest of the group isn't able to compete at that kinda level, and it'd be brilliant if he'd take it out of his deck/replace it with something less 'hard-lock'-like/try building a different deck.
Is hating on contamination really starting an arms race though? "Hey guys, run some enchantment removal and maybe some mana rocks" doesn't seem like it's asking too much. It's really basic deck construction, to me. If I'm playing green, white or blue I'm playing both of those things anyhow. It's not really an arms race, IMO, as much as it is teaching people how to build decks and plan for what others may play.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
Is hating on contamination really starting an arms race though? "Hey guys, run some enchantment removal and maybe some mana rocks" doesn't seem like it's asking too much. If I'm playing green, white or blue I'm playing both of those things anyhow.
You're missing the greatest strength of contamination: it stops people from killing it. Unless you have enchantment removal AND mana rocks or instant enchantment removal in hand with mana available to cast it when Contamination is cast, your green and white and blue aren't going to do crap. Lands only make black mana, and black mana doesn't kill enchantments outside of high costed colorless answers. Its one of those cards like Possibility Storm where the effect isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world, but it's still really frustrating to kill because it shuts down anything you would aim at it.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
Our group would generally let him play it a couple times a night then ask him to switch to another deck. If you're friends this shouldn't be a problem.
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Is hating on contamination really starting an arms race though? "Hey guys, run some enchantment removal and maybe some mana rocks" doesn't seem like it's asking too much. If I'm playing green, white or blue I'm playing both of those things anyhow.
You're missing the greatest strength of contamination: it stops people from killing it. Unless you have enchantment removal AND mana rocks or instant enchantment removal in hand with mana available to cast it when Contamination is cast, your green and white and blue aren't going to do crap. Lands only make black mana, and black mana doesn't kill enchantments outside of high costed colorless answers. Its one of those cards like Possibility Storm where the effect isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world, but it's still really frustrating to kill because it shuts down anything you would aim at it.
Oh I know how it works. I run it. Others in my group do as well.
I also run a five color deck that had no basics. I got tired of blood moon, so I added three plains and two forests. I didn't consider it an arms race, just adapting to overcome weaknesses in my deck.
I also don't play my staxos deck every game. I get the cards annoying. But it is answerable if you plan accordingly and those answers are useful in every game so I don't see it as an arms race so much as teaching you better deck building skills.
Because conservative bias is a far, far worse thing. Liberal bias doesn't, statistically speaking, make people stupid. Conservative bias (or at least Fox's version of it) does.
Oh I know how it works. I run it. Others in my group do as well.
I also run a five color deck that had no basics. I got tired of blood moon, so I added three plains and two forests. I didn't consider it an arms race, just adapting to overcome weaknesses in my deck.
I also don't play my staxos deck every game. I get the cards annoying. But it is answerable if you plan accordingly and those answers are useful in every game so I don't see it as an arms race so much as teaching you better deck building skills.
I don't disagree that running answers to your group's biggest threat is fine and not an arms race. I'm just saying that "Hey guys, run some enchantment removal and maybe some mana rocks" is exaggerating downward what you have to do to answer Contamination.
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Zedruu: "This deck is not only able to go crazy - it also needs to do so."
I recently made a 5-color sliver deck - it's got 10 dual lands, 10 fetches, various other expensive lands, and every game against my buddy's mono-red deck went like this:
Turn 1-2: he laid lands, mana rocks, and maybe casted gamble.
Turn 3: he casts blood moon (which completely shuts down my $2000 mana base) or ruination.
Clearly the card blood moon was making it unfun for me so here is what I said:
You're a douche for playing blood moon over and over, but I'm really glad you did because it pointed out a weakness in my deck. (And then I put in signets, talismans, etc to speed up the deck and survive blood moon easier).
It sounds like what the OP is saying is that he and the other players have been given an opportunity to evolve as players and learn how to deal with a problem, but they prefer to play badly instead and make a houserule preventing people from playing fair cards.
If contamination shuts you down, the problem isn't contamination, it's you.
A single card shouldn't dictate how you build a deck for your playgroup. This is a terrible response.
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EDIT: All other people in our group play fair decks for fun games not ultra competitive Magic
"Hey, <Friend>, you've put together a very powerful deck. Contamination + Bitterblossom is a powerful combo that does a great job of locking the rest of the board out of playing the game. Thing is, we like to play at a more casual level, where everyone gets a chance to participate in the games and players don't end up spinning their wheels for multiple turns in a row trying to find a way to play around cards like Contamination. We'd appreciate it if you could find some other cards to play in your deck instead. Have you considered Dictate of Erebos? It's also a strong card with repeated token generation and sac fodder, and it helps you control the game, but it doesn't completely shut down the other players in the process."
Or something like that. If that doesn't work, just try playing around it. Mana rocks that make colored mana (signets, talismen, Coldsteel Heart, Darksteel Ingot, Coalition Relic, etc) can bypass the color-washing restriction, and colorless removal like Nevinyrral's Disk, Oblivion Stone, Perilous Vault, All is Dust, Karn Liberated, Spine of Ish Sah, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Scour from Existence, and others can remove Contamination from the board while locked down.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
As far as cards like contamination goes, there ARE ways to deal with it, but if you're deadset against it, I'd just have all those who are opposed to it remaining in just point out that it creates worse games overall. When only one person is allowed to actually play their deck and others are locked out of the game, it makes people less willing to actually play. There is a place in the format for super-competitive play, but it doesn't sound like your group is that. If you all just ask him to remove the issue and point out that you'd all just like to be able to play as well, I'm fairly certain he'll understand. If not, other options could be to just knock them out first each game or stop playing with them, but group votes on banning or polite discussions have always worked for my group .
EDH - Yes, Each One is Named After a Song. I love tying music to my decks.
B Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief B - Fear of the Dark
WG Sigarda, Heron's Grace WG - Strength in Numbers
RG Xenagos, God of Revels RG - Fullmoon (It's werewolves)
RW Archangel Avacyn // Avacyn, the Purifier RW - The End is Nigh
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RG Arlinn Kord's Howlpack
To be honest contamination isn't all that bad in a multi-player format. Once everyone is aware that an opponent runs that sort of thing, most typically include answers to the threat, and it becomes very easy to politic the game into the contamination player being the ArchEnemy.
Perhaps it is time for your table to also build a few "mean" decks to compete with his mono-black thing. Keep what decks you all have, and build yourself a mean one to play with on occasions. Explain that to your friend so he can also build a deck that is comparable to everyones current decks, so he doesnt always play the mono-black one.
Links to my most current deck lists;
Primary EDH; Rakka Mar Token Perfection, Crosis Mnemonic Betrayal, Cromat Villainous, Judith Gravestorm, Rakdos Empty Storm, Exava Artifacts, Bant Trash, & Fumiko Voltron!
EDH kept at home; Ruzzian Isset & Rakdos LoR!
EDH (nostalgic/pimp/retired) in storage;
Latulla Burns, Akroma Smash, Jeska Voltron, Rakdos Storm, Bladewing Darghans, Lyzolda Worldgorger, Xantcha Steals your Heart, Jori Storm, Wydwen Permission, Gwendlyn Paradox, Jeleva Warps, & Sigarda Brick!
Legacy Showanimator and High Tide!
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Play Kormus Bell + Linvala, Keeper of Silence.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
Drought works, too, especially with black's poor enchantment removal.
UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU's prison: blue is the new orange is the new black.
Mizzix Of The Izmagnus : wheels on fire... rolling down the road...
BSidisi, Undead VizierB: Bis zum Erbrechen
GTitiania, Protector Of ArgothG: Protecting Argoth, by blowing it up!
GYisan, The Wanderer BardG: Gradus Ad Elfball.
Duel EDH: Yisan & Titania.
In Progress: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV duel; Grenzo, Dungeon Warden Doomsday.
If the rest of the table is consistently folding to one card, it just seems like they are not preparing or adapting properly.
I know not everyone plays the same way, but having to figure out and adapt to a meta is part of the fun of Commander for me.
Turn 1-2: he laid lands, mana rocks, and maybe casted gamble.
Turn 3: he casts blood moon (which completely shuts down my $2000 mana base) or ruination.
Clearly the card blood moon was making it unfun for me so here is what I said:
You're a douche for playing blood moon over and over, but I'm really glad you did because it pointed out a weakness in my deck. (And then I put in signets, talismans, etc to speed up the deck and survive blood moon easier).
It sounds like what the OP is saying is that he and the other players have been given an opportunity to evolve as players and learn how to deal with a problem, but they prefer to play badly instead and make a houserule preventing people from playing fair cards.
If contamination shuts you down, the problem isn't contamination, it's you.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
If he's really the one's looking for reasons to take it out, as the first post suggests, then the only argument ever needed is "does it ruin your own fun." A lot of times when someone has a deck with a lot of cards they want to play and a few win conditions, one of those win conditions will be so much more efficient or oppressive that having it in the deck actively stops the player from enjoying the rest of the deck the way they want to. If this person finds that Contamination lock isn't how he wants to win and is effectively ending games before he can do what he wants to, he should absolutely stop playing it.
instead, like mr wildfire, i'd probably suggest just talking to your mate as a mate, and just explain to him that the rest of the group isn't able to compete at that kinda level, and it'd be brilliant if he'd take it out of his deck/replace it with something less 'hard-lock'-like/try building a different deck.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Is hating on contamination really starting an arms race though? "Hey guys, run some enchantment removal and maybe some mana rocks" doesn't seem like it's asking too much. It's really basic deck construction, to me. If I'm playing green, white or blue I'm playing both of those things anyhow. It's not really an arms race, IMO, as much as it is teaching people how to build decks and plan for what others may play.
You're missing the greatest strength of contamination: it stops people from killing it. Unless you have enchantment removal AND mana rocks or instant enchantment removal in hand with mana available to cast it when Contamination is cast, your green and white and blue aren't going to do crap. Lands only make black mana, and black mana doesn't kill enchantments outside of high costed colorless answers. Its one of those cards like Possibility Storm where the effect isn't necessarily the worst thing in the world, but it's still really frustrating to kill because it shuts down anything you would aim at it.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Oh I know how it works. I run it. Others in my group do as well.
I also run a five color deck that had no basics. I got tired of blood moon, so I added three plains and two forests. I didn't consider it an arms race, just adapting to overcome weaknesses in my deck.
I also don't play my staxos deck every game. I get the cards annoying. But it is answerable if you plan accordingly and those answers are useful in every game so I don't see it as an arms race so much as teaching you better deck building skills.
I don't disagree that running answers to your group's biggest threat is fine and not an arms race. I'm just saying that "Hey guys, run some enchantment removal and maybe some mana rocks" is exaggerating downward what you have to do to answer Contamination.
A single card shouldn't dictate how you build a deck for your playgroup. This is a terrible response.