[Official]
The Dream Multiplayer Ban List and the State of the Format (2015 ed)
Poll: Infect should be...
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Infect should be... - Single Choice
- 10 points 54.9%
- 15 points 22.8%
- 20 points 20.3%
- banned 2%
Ended Dec 31, 2015
Poll: Should the Banned as a Commander list be reinstated?
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Should the Banned as a Commander list be reinstated? - Single Choice
- Yes 69%
- No 31%
Ended Dec 31, 2015
Poll: What do you think about the tuck rule change?
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What do you think about the tuck rule change? - Single Choice
- I like it, keep the rule. 42.1%
- I dislike it, bring back tuck. 34.6%
- I don't care one way or the other. 23.3%
Ended Dec 31, 2015
Poll: Do you think the "wish board" (sideboard) should be reinstated?
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Do you think the "wish board" (sideboard) should be reinstated? - Single Choice
- Yes 23.3%
- No 45.6%
- Yes, but as an optional rule only 31.1%
Ended Dec 31, 2015
Poll: What cards should be on the multiplayer ban list?
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What cards should be on the multiplayer ban list? - Multiple Choice
- == BANNED IN VINTAGE == (Don't vote for this) 2% of Users - 6 votes
- Chaos Orb 70.1% of Users - 211 votes
- Falling Star 68.1% of Users - 205 votes
- Shahrazad 74.1% of Users - 223 votes
- == OTHERWISE BANNED IN COMMANDER == (Don't vote for this) 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Ancestral Recall 77.4% of Users - 233 votes
- Balance 67.4% of Users - 203 votes
- Biorhythm 73.4% of Users - 221 votes
- Black Lotus 81.4% of Users - 245 votes
- Braids, Cabal Minion 27.6% of Users - 83 votes
- Coalition Victory 60.5% of Users - 182 votes
- Emrakul, the Aeons Torn 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Erayo, Soratami Ascendant 56.5% of Users - 170 votes
- Fastbond 71.4% of Users - 215 votes
- Gifts Ungiven 41.9% of Users - 126 votes
- Griselbrand 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Karakas 74.1% of Users - 223 votes
- Library of Alexandria 55.8% of Users - 168 votes
- Limited Resources 72.4% of Users - 218 votes
- Mox Pearl, Sapphire, Jet, Ruby, and Emerald 80.4% of Users - 242 votes
- Painter's Servant 32.9% of Users - 99 votes
- Panoptic Mirror 56.5% of Users - 170 votes
- Primeval Titan 53.5% of Users - 161 votes
- Protean Hulk 57.5% of Users - 173 votes
- Recurring Nightmare 46.2% of Users - 139 votes
- Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary 44.2% of Users - 133 votes
- Sundering Titan 55.5% of Users - 167 votes
- Sway of the Stars 66.4% of Users - 200 votes
- Sylvan Primodial 53.8% of Users - 162 votes
- Time Vault 82.1% of Users - 247 votes
- Time Walk 81.4% of Users - 245 votes
- Tinker 69.4% of Users - 209 votes
- Tolarian Academy 64.8% of Users - 195 votes
- Trade Secrets 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Upheaval 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Worldfire 62.5% of Users - 188 votes
- Yawgmoth's Bargain 67.1% of Users - 202 votes
- == CARDS NOT CURRENTLY ON THE BAN LIST == (Don't vote for this) 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Ad Nauseam 18.6% of Users - 56 votes
- Bazaar of Baghdad 14.6% of Users - 44 votes
- Blightsteel Colossus 6.6% of Users - 20 votes
- Bribery 6.3% of Users - 19 votes
- Buried Alive 2% of Users - 6 votes
- Consecrated Sphinx 18.6% of Users - 56 votes
- Contamination 9.6% of Users - 29 votes
- Corpse Dance 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Craterhoof Behemoth 5.6% of Users - 17 votes
- Cyclonic Rift 9.6% of Users - 29 votes
- Deadeye Navigator 23.3% of Users - 70 votes
- Demonic Tutor 13.3% of Users - 40 votes
- Derevi, Empyrial Tactician 18.9% of Users - 57 votes
- Doomsday 10.6% of Users - 32 votes
- Doubling Season 1.7% of Users - 5 votes
- Enlightened Tutor 6% of Users - 18 votes
- Enter the Infinite 9% of Users - 27 votes
- Food Chain 11% of Users - 33 votes
- Force of Will 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Gaea's Cradle 14.3% of Users - 43 votes
- Gray Merchant of Asphodel 1.7% of Users - 5 votes
- Grim Monolith 10.6% of Users - 32 votes
- Grim Tutor 9% of Users - 27 votes
- Grindstone 6% of Users - 18 votes
- Hermit Druid 29.2% of Users - 88 votes
- Hokori, Dust Drinker 2.3% of Users - 7 votes
- Humility 8% of Users - 24 votes
- Imperial Seal 18.3% of Users - 55 votes
- Insurrection 2% of Users - 6 votes
- Intuition 4% of Users - 12 votes
- Invoke Prejudice 3.7% of Users - 11 votes
- Iona, Shield of Emeria 38.2% of Users - 115 votes
- Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur 6.6% of Users - 20 votes
- Kokusho, the Evening Star 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Maelstrom Wanderer 4% of Users - 12 votes
- Magister Sphinx 6.3% of Users - 19 votes
- Mana Crypt 39.9% of Users - 120 votes
- Mana Drain 15% of Users - 45 votes
- Mana Vault 22.6% of Users - 68 votes
- Mind Over Matter 6.6% of Users - 20 votes
- Mindslaver 7.3% of Users - 22 votes
- Mishra's Workshop 15.9% of Users - 48 votes
- Mystical Tutor 7.3% of Users - 22 votes
- Narset, Enlightened Master 12% of Users - 36 votes
- Necropotence 14.6% of Users - 44 votes
- Nether Void 5% of Users - 15 votes
- Oath of Druids 8% of Users - 24 votes
- Oloro, Ageless Ascetic 6.3% of Users - 19 votes
- Omniscience 12.6% of Users - 38 votes
- Palinchron 14.6% of Users - 44 votes
- Prophet of Kruphix 22.9% of Users - 69 votes
- Purphoros, God of the Forge 3.7% of Users - 11 votes
- Serra Ascendant 13.3% of Users - 40 votes
- Sol Ring 28.2% of Users - 85 votes
- Sorin Markov 7.6% of Users - 23 votes
- Survival of the Fittest 13% of Users - 39 votes
- Sylvan Library 2.7% of Users - 8 votes
- The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale 18.3% of Users - 55 votes
- Tendrils of Agony 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Time Stretch 8% of Users - 24 votes
- Tooth and Nail 18.3% of Users - 55 votes
- Triumph of the Hordes 1.3% of Users - 4 votes
- Vampiric Tutor 12.6% of Users - 38 votes
- Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger 5.3% of Users - 16 votes
- Winter Orb 7.3% of Users - 22 votes
- Yawgmoth's Will 7.6% of Users - 23 votes
- Zur the Enchanter 7.6% of Users - 23 votes
- == CATEGORIES OF CARDS == (Don't vote for this) 1% of Users - 3 votes
- Annihilator cards (i.e. the Eldrazi) 4.3% of Users - 13 votes
- Extra turns (e.g. Time Warp) 10% of Users - 30 votes
- Mass Land Destruction cards (e.g. Armageddon, Sunder) 10.3% of Users - 31 votes
- Planeswalker Commanders (e.g. Nahiri, the Lithomancer) 3.3% of Users - 10 votes
- "You win the game" effects (e.g. Test of Endurance) 9.3% of Users - 28 votes
Ended Dec 31, 2015
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I don't mean any offense by it but I think you might be a bit of an outlier of a player. I still appreciate your feedback on this sort of thing but I also don't take what you play or how you play to be the norm across the format.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Three of those are too slow (Buried Alive, Corpse Dance, Kokusho), one is less good than Mana Drain (Force of Will) and Hokori is an easily-removed Winter Orb. The only one that sees any remote play at our tables is Force of Will, once in a blue moon. If we're going to combo off we'll just Duress/Thoughtseize the blue player first, and if he Forces that then we combo off. Thalia, Ethersworn Canonist, Grand Arbiter Augustin etc. are all much bigger problems for the combo decks in our meta.
Buried Alive does not see play because people play either Oath of Druids, which dumps 40+ cards in grave, or Sidisi, which gives you a zombie, or Entomb, which gets you your silver bullet. Kokusho isn't very good, gaining +15 life when you could end the game on the spot, it is durdling to be honest.
The "You win the game" cards are all pretty slow so more power if you can pull them off.
I did not vote for Sol Ring as it's standard Commander fare, it's in the pre-cons so that ship has sailed. I voted for Mana Crypt though, it has the high barrier to entry nailed down and is ubiquitous and so on.
Voted for the tutors as well (Demonic, Mystical).
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks
Iona is "fine". Generally someone at the table can deal with her. It's really distressing for the mono-colour player but we tend to have their back. When I was on Krenko I'd run Brittle Effigy to get around it.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
On whether there is a stigma to Legacy that the RC is trying to avoid, I'm not really sure how that could be the case where the current baseline is Vintage, as the RC has stated before in a couple places, and there is even more of a stigma toward Vintage. It's not as if a ban update would be accompanied by a firm endorsement of the Legacy format, or even mention Legacy. They woulc just ban X, Y and Z, holding to whatever criteria they wanted to at the time.
And I don't think that would automatically indicate to the player base that it's time to start terrorizing people with their lean builds. To the parade of horrors listed - running a sideboard, playing spot removal, predicting the metagame - the alternative is and always be to just lose instead. As we said elsewhere, you can always play what you like and if this is really a casual format, you won't mind losing so much. The question of "Do I want to stop what's beating me?" is answered by each player outside of the game. If it's answered "no" more often, since it's a casual format, that doesn't really relate to the card pool. The question that is really being raised by a functional ban list is "If I want to stop what's beating me, can I?".
And even for people who might not want to explore the limits of competitive balance in the card pool, I'd assert that it's still important that this question be answered in the affirmative. MaRo wrote in his popular piece "10 things every game needs" that one of the essential elements of a game is "Strategy". If a player can learn with their experiences over time and gradually become better at the game, that creates a continuity of experience that allows a player to measure and appreciate the sum of their experiences with the game. If the strategy of the format is finding an exploit, such as the fact that not enough cheap answers exist to stop fast tutoring and fast mana, then there's not enough strategic element to connect with beyond simply finding those exploits. Even for players who won't play with/against certain things as a rule, you have to create sort of a willful suspension of disbelief to connect with a game that you know is full of exploits. And now, you're just connecting with a version of the game that you're trying really hard to believe exists, not the one that actually does exist. Take the example of a game like Connect Four or Tic-Tac-Toe, both solved games, versus a game like Checkers. There is just no ideal of improvement to strive toward in those solved games. It doesn't matter that most human players will not be able to memorize the routine to win every Connect Four game they play, Connect Four isn't approached this way in the first place.
Deliberately leaving the game exploitable in order to prevent this kind of continuity of experience with EDH might seem like a good idea to avoid a tournament-like community, but I don't think that's ultimately what accomplishes this for this format, and I don't think those people with this approach really understand how damaging these unfixed exploits are to the average player's connection to EDH.
Current Unban leaders
1) Painter's Servant - 28.8% (44/153 votes)
2) Braids, Cabal Minion - 29.4% (45/153 votes)
3) Gifts Ungiven - 44.4% (68/153 votes)
4) Recurring Nightmare - 51.0% (78/153 votes)
5) Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary - 52.3% (80/153 votes)
6) Sylvan Primordial - 58.2% (89/153 votes)
7) Primeval Titan - 59.5% (91/153 votes)
T8) Panoptic Mirror - 60.1% (92/153 votes)
T8) Library of Alexandria - 60.1% (92/152 votes)
10) Sundering Titan - 62.1% (95/153 votes)
Protean Hulk has fallen out of the Top 10 by just a single vote, but Painter's Servant has taken the top spot rom Braids as being the most called for to be unbanned. Recurring Nightmare and Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary are nudging down close to 50%, but the only clear winners here are the calls for unbanning Painter's Servant and Braids, Cabal Minion.
Current Ban Leaders
1) Mana Crypt - 49.7% (76/153 votes)
2) Iona, Shield of Emeria - 46.4% (71/153 votes)
3) Sol Ring - 36.6% (56/153 votes)
4) Hermit Druid - 32.0% (49/153 votes)
5) Mana Vault - 29.4% (45/153 votes)
6) Ad Nauseam - 22.9% (35/153 votes)
7) Imperial Seal - 21.6% (33/153 votes)
8) Tooth and Nail - 20.9% (32/153 votes)
T9) Deadeye Navigator - 20.3% (31/153)
T9) Derevi, Empyrial Tactician - 20.3% (31/153 votes)
Some newcomers to the Top 10, but still nothing surprising me more than Iona holding firmly at the #2 spot. PoK, Vamp Tutor, Workshop, and Bazaar have al fallen out of the Top 10. The call the ban Mana Crypt is also much lower than earlier, slipping from 57% to a shade under 50%.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
This is again the sort of biased viewpoint of internet traffic for commander so our participants will likely be those able to play on the same level easier. Still, its sort of fun to see how few votes she is getting.
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[Modern] Allies
Given that, I still think that votes of 30%+ to ban something that has always, always been legal is a pretty big amount. That means that sitting down at your next 4-player game, about 1 of the 3 players other than yourself, on average, wants that card banned. I mean, put yourself in the shoes of someone who plays a format where a commonly played card is one they want to see banned. With responses over 30% on cards like Sol Ring, that's something that affects just about every single game of EDH currently played.
If people are voting "ban card X because I can't afford it", I wonder how many people voted for Mana Crypt that wouldn't have if they were cheap.
Its because there are not many in circulation vs how many players would want them.
Look at the poll, all the Vintage restricts are BAN ME NOW leading. Its not because of how good they are individualy in commander.
Most people here have never owned or played with such cards, and have no idea their effect on a multiplayer game.
A single mox jet in a Random black commander deck doesn't bother me, but everyone having one in a black deck would make the collectors scream bloody murder and cry as their $1500 investment went to $2.66.
Now add all the Power 9 together in a 5 color deck, makes the game pretty much Vintage and not EDH.
Magic(Commander) becomes more a Battle of the Wallets and not the Wits, not to say it doesn't already. The RC are trying(poorly)to keep a level playing field for all to enjoy as a BASELINE. This "banlist" has never been set in stone. People just react like the RC's decisions are the word of god and unchangeable. Dont like em, change em. Voice your ideas and see if the LGS/Playgroup can agree on changing things.
I for one voted against all the Tutors, to me they ruin the highlander format/fun completely.
wat?
EDH is singleton Vintage, imo.
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I agree wholeheartedly on the 30% thing. If a third of your playgroup is opposed to something, surely the problem has to be solved, amirite. Translate it to a soccer team, baseball or hockey team. Heck, it doesn't have to be a team. It could be any group or category. A third of them that thinks otherwise isn't good at all.
UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Thought that might be what he meant. How bout dat reserved list doe...
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Meanwhile the Vintage restricted list generally has some "ban me now" trends in this poll, and more and more people are realizing that Mana Crypt and Sol Ring are Vintage restricted mana rocks. However, Vampiric Tutor is Vintage restricted, and that's sitting at an unimpressive 16%. I don't think we can generalize based on Vintage power.
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
For mana rocks, Sol Ring and Mana Crypt are in a class way beyond all other forms of ramp that are legal in this format. They're more in line with Moxen and Black Lotus than they are with other typical ramp like Thran Dynamo or Skyshroud Claim. A turn 1 or turn 2 Sol Ring often ends the game before it really begins, if not technically, at least effectively. I remember a recent game where I had my Vampiric Tutor in my opening hand and was thinking "I don't want to get Sol Ring because I would prefer to have a longer and more interactive game." I pass the turn, player 2 drops Sol Ring. He passes the turn, player 3 drops Sol Ring. At this point I basically have to get my Sol Ring just to stay in the game and not be overwhelmed. Player 4 doesn't have a Sol Ring and essentially doesn't get to play. This is the type of game that I hate and it's caused mainly by Sol Ring and the 1 mana unconditional tutors being legal in this format.
GUB [Retired Primer] The Mimeoplasm BUG
Modern: UR Storm RU
Cube: WUBRG Pauper Cube GRBUW
Credit for the banner goes to DarkNightCavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios
I mean, how does a playgroup generally react when someone slaps down Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar, Imperial Seal, Imperial Recruiter, etc? My impression is that people would feel like they had to catch up. The days of opening packs, being surprised at cards you didn't know about, and raw dog shuffling are gone. The days of Reddit decklists and E-bay are now here. Players of all formats don't take to the idea very well that there's an objectively superior configuration to their deck out there, they just can't afford the cardboard. How a ton of them deal with it is through proxies. I think at the majority of public card shop games I've gone to over the past 2 years or so, at least one of my opponents was playing proxies. Now I haven't seen people printing off Imperial Seal, Workshop, or any others, but I have seen a bunch of Imperial Recruiter because of how good he is in some decks like Animar. I don't want to open a proxy discussion, but as we all could imagine, that's something that carries along with it very strong opinions, and some people will feel that they shouldn't have to play against an image of Imperial Recruiter digitally generated at Kinkos. On the other hand, not all people interested in playing Imperial Animar will kick out $300 on the open market. The deck is out there though, and that's their only other option for playing the deck.
For me, it is better for my enjoyment of the game if I just forget these cards exist. A casual format should not need them, and it doesn't do anything for the format to have cards in it that cost as much as my XBox One. It's a lose-lose. Those who don't have them don't like playing against them, and those that do have them could have spent their budget on something else. That investment alone puts at risk a player's ability to approach the format casually.
I don't understand though how 50% of people can still want Rofellos banned when 70% think that BaaC should be brought back. I guess there is the gray area where they want him banned as a commander and are voting for maintaining the ban under the premise that BaaC won't be brought back. Frankly, I think he is fine and has always been fine as one of the 99 and really want to see him off the list. I have a friend who won't let me play him in Omnath because, "banlist," and that is literally the only reason. It is incredibly frustrating to deal with especially when I'd made probably 1 good play with him in the 3 years I have had the deck together.
EDH:
G[cEDH] Selvala, Heart of the StormG
URW[cEDH] Narset, the Last AirmericanURW
GWUSt. Jenara, the ArchangelGWU
UBGrimgrin, Chaos MarineUB
GOmnath, Mana BaronG
URWNarset, Justice League AmericaURW
GWUBAtraxa, Countess of CountersGWUB
GWUEstrid, Enbantress PrimeGWU
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
I think it was a timing question. You didn't do it close after a ban/restricted announcement.
Doing it midseason gives the RC plenty of time do discuss it during their cabal meetings.
That they most certainly don't do
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg