The thing with voltron is that when you're banking your primary strategy around one creature getting in to the red zone, you want them to stick around. Bruna and even Gisela can be houses in playgroups that run little to no spot removal or counterspells, but eventually the group will adapt. Without built in protection, you have to pass priority to grant your general protection which leaves you vulnerable And can potentially set you back far enough that you can't win.
Personally, I like Uril the most out of the generals that have been mentioned. You don't need as much investment to start killing people, which lets you hold cards back in case he does get removed by a board wipe.
I just started putting an Uril deck together, at the prompting of the more constructive players who have posted here. Is there a way to run an infinite combo with Bear Umbra in Uril's colors, or am I just reaching?
Bear Umbra using Aggravated Assault gives you infinite combat steps if you can keep doing damage. Hellkite Chargeris also on color for you so he can combo with it as well, in case of Runed Halo on your general.
Bear Umbra triggers on attack, not on damage. You don't need to connect to untap your lands.
That's true, but infinite combat steps don't mean much if you can't damage an opponent
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Opal-eye, Konda's Yojimbo ~ Rayne, Academy Chancellor ~ Toshiro Umezawa ~ Jaya Ballard, Task Mage ~ Yeva, Nature's Herald
Teysa, Orzhov Scion ~ Tajic, Blade of the Legion ~ Selvala, Explorer Returned ~ Savra, Queen of the Golgari
Marchesa, the Black Rose ~ Sydri, Galvanic Genius ~ Alesha, Who Smiles at Death ~ Riku of Two Reflections ~ Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
blue black gets quite a bit of evasion lazav is hexproof and can steal value from other decks
i currently have scion the ur-dragon volron with a side of reanimator it 1 shots people most of the time
if i had Hellkite Charger i would have an additional method to do infinite combat phases in addition to bear umbra sword of feast and famine aggravated assault savage ventmaw
and yes bear umbra is a absolute auto include in uril
My friend had a Bruna deck that was quite good. She was a popular clone target though, and it was entertaining watching her auras bouncing between all the Brunas on the table.
She's good but still, she has no shroud or hexproof. There tended to be ample opportunity to remove her before she attacked. If you consistently win with her, it means your playgroup doesn't use enough removal. Which means they're noobs. And that's fine, but it gives you a false idea of how good bruna is.
In a meta of strong players I think you'll find that all too often, uril attacks, and bruna doesn't. Either one is awesome if left unchecked, but bruna will be the one spending the most time in the command zone.
I know i must be biased, I still don't see how any voltron general can 1 up Zur. You're not using your lands so your and can save mana for a Counterspell. You can tutor protection to make him invincible on t4 (I run mana rocks to get him out earlier). Follow that up with making yourself invincible and it's off to then races. The problem with most voltron generals is a strong offense and a weak defense.. Get the best the both worlds. You can literally think of the exact card you need and put it on the battlefield the moment you need it most.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I think people are missing something here, EDH is a mutiplayer format and if your going Voltron you will need someone that can take out many people at once. Someone said above about saying they take out one person then everyone teams up on them. Zurgo Helmsmasher+Worldslayer seems like a good way to kill everyone. Kinda hard to play with no lands. I have also seen some good Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer with mass LD. Of course these commanders suffer for not having too much mana ramp (no Green).
Also to add on to what others are saying about your play group not being able to deal with Bruna, Light of Alabaster, If no one is changing their deck to fit the meta your playing EDH wrong. The fun part about building a deck is that its always changing to fit the Meta needs. As new decks come along old decks change. You said that you played this deck about 10 times(and won each time in a Mutiplayer game), if your play group is not remedial they will change up the way their decks play. If they continue to do nothing they are doing it wrong.
I had a friend at my college who built a bruna deck. It could win very quickly after he cast it, but we learned pretty quickly to stop it before it goes off. It became a one trick pony, much like Maralen of the Mornsong. Bruna is a glass cannon. If she can't go off, you pretty much just lose. She can be fun, but she's easy to predict and prepare for. That same friend later built Sigurda, which was more annoying. It wasn't as explosive, but it was more resilient. If we didn't counter it, it would quickly get indestructible or regeneration and be a pain to deal with. I've lost more games to Sigurda than to Bruna.
Bruna is fine but hangs out near the bottom of my top 10 for voltron because she's viciously hard countered by clones. Dack's Duplicate scrubs the smile off her face real fast.
Not to say that she's bad, and she's definitely a pain if you're playing voltron against her. OP's playgroup clearly doesn't play enough spot removal, board wipes, counters, stealing, propagandas, fogs, or clones.
Other topics:
Zur can be a really good voltron commander since he's so efficient and therefore easy to protect. It may be difficult to avoid the temptation to turn him into a harder control deck, but that doesn't mean he isn't great for voltron.
While Skittles is good since in most groups you only have to get in for 10 he's the hardest to protect and the hardest to provide additional evasion to.
That's true, but infinite combat steps don't mean much if you can't damage an opponent
A 0/1 can stop Aggravated Assault + Sword of Feast and Famine from going off. It can't stop Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra.
It's not about whether or not you'll get the untap triggers from Bear Umbra or not, because you're right on that: you will. All those combats you push through mean nothing if your opponent doesn't take damage from Uril, though, so the Hellkite was mentioned as a backup Umbra carrier in the event that they name Uril for Runed Halo or something similar.
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Opal-eye, Konda's Yojimbo ~ Rayne, Academy Chancellor ~ Toshiro Umezawa ~ Jaya Ballard, Task Mage ~ Yeva, Nature's Herald
Teysa, Orzhov Scion ~ Tajic, Blade of the Legion ~ Selvala, Explorer Returned ~ Savra, Queen of the Golgari
Marchesa, the Black Rose ~ Sydri, Galvanic Genius ~ Alesha, Who Smiles at Death ~ Riku of Two Reflections ~ Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
That's true, but infinite combat steps don't mean much if you can't damage an opponent
A 0/1 can stop Aggravated Assault + Sword of Feast and Famine from going off. It can't stop Aggravated Assault + Bear Umbra.
It's not about whether or not you'll get the untap triggers from Bear Umbra or not, because you're right on that: you will. All those combats you push through mean nothing if your opponent doesn't take damage from Uril, though, so the Hellkite was mentioned as a backup Umbra carrier in the event that they name Uril for Runed Halo or something similar.
My umbridge was not with Hellkite Charger, it was with the final clause in the sentence "Bear Umbra using Aggravated Assault gives you infinite combat steps if you can keep doing damage." Bear Umbra does not require that damage occurs.
I've added Flickerform, Vanishing now to avoid getting cloned or have my hexproof and then Bruna destroyed in one step. All in all it's about $80 now.
Lots of tutors. My tutor progression is this - Hexproof , flickerform/vanishing , indestructibility , Assault Suit if there's a deck in the game that can force sac , lifelink , everything else. I don't pull her out anymore unless I have a form of haste ready to go due to a couple games where, as people have mentioned, she's essentially target #1 and has been spot wiped a few times.
Also, this deck isn't reliant on Bruna at all I've noticed. What tends to happen now more often is I'll just leave her in the command zone sometimes and use sovereigns of lost alara with daxos of meletis or medomai the ageless and tutor myself some things I need. Since people don't even pay attention to my deck until Bruna is out I can usually blow the game open with Worldslayer and Indestructibility and finish it off without even using her.
As an update - My playgroup has started to pull out their blue decks every time I play this deck. I've played 5 more games with her and nearly lost once when I was prevented from pulling bruna out until the very end due to a planeswalker (can't remember his name) one of my friends had whose up ability was stunning a permanent, which I knew he would've used as soon as I pulled her out and I had no haste in hand at the time. With a little politicking I got someone else to kill him, pulled her out and wiped the board :P.
With the changes to the tuck rule. I think skullbriar is definately a consideration as a top voltron. He has haste and benefits from the tutors and card draw in black and the draw and counter support from green. He comes down early, hits fast, and gets bigger all on his own in colors that help him continue to grow. Not to mention disciple of bolas is really dirty with him :D.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
I think Skullbriar is a fun choice but he's always going to lag a bit behind because he has no built in protection or evasion. Not to mention he's not white or blue so he misses out on lots of great auras and equipment tutors.
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Not to mention he's not white or blue so he misses out on lots of great auras and equipment tutors.
Academy Rector, Stonehewer Giant, Godo, Bandit Warlord, Tezzeret, the Seeker, and Stoneforge Mystic. Those are the only enchantment or equipment tutors I would miss in any black deck that wanted enchantments or equipment. And Stonehewer, Godo, and Tezzeret are slow compared to Skullbriar simply pumping himself. Drop Skullbriar T1 and start swinging for the fences before any opponent has a chance to even cast blockers. By the time the board gets clogged up, you can do things like give Skullbriar shadow, trample, or simply kill off the blockers. (Hell, you could even do T1 Hardened Scalesand T1 Skullbriar with two free sources of colored mana, like Lotus Petal+Elvish spirit Guide on top of your land drop.)
I clumped a bunch of stuff together here, not just tutors but good auras - Enlightened Tutor and Steelshaper's Gift on the equipment side. Vanishing, most (all?) lifelink, most evasion and unblockable enchantments on the blue/white side. Some or all of these tools are available to Sigarda, Uril, Bruna, and somewhat outside the box ideas like Zur.
There's nothing wrong with Skullbriar, per se, but he's either equipment based without some of the cheap equipment tutors or enchantment based without some of the best enchantments to resolve his deficits (evasion and primarily protection). Or I guess he's ultimately a mix of both and relying on black tutors.
He also takes 5 swings to kill the first player, even in your Hardened Scales example, assuming no chump blocking or removal. Although I'm sure by that point he should have some kid of equipment or additional pump from something.
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EDH playing competitive Magic cast away
Current Decks GTitania midrange RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
As for tutors, yes black doesn't have any enchantment/aura tutors per se. It still has probably the best tutor suite in the game that is limited only by deck space or $$$ (imperial seal, grim tutor being additions to demonic tutor and vampiric tutor).
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EDH:ShatterStax, Only The Strong Survive
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
I play Skullbriar using creatures, recurrable enchantments and global enchantments to provide protection/evasion. The tools are there Green can even tutor up Nylea directly into play for trample and pumps which is pretty sick. GSZ for 5 is a pretty common play for me. I've turn 3 killed with Unspeakable Symbol before.
Having haste and 2CMC and keeping your counters is functionally similar to evasion; the biggest threat to SkullB is theft, and thankfully a natural subtheme for the deck is sacrificing stuff. Fun example is saccing him and recurring him with Sheoldred every turn People love that. Yeah, I'll draw 9 cards, discard 3, and then bring him back next upkeep.
Anyway I concur that Skullbriar is not one of the strongest voltron generals, but he's got many tools. I see most people play Enchantment voltron in a really peculiar say that is built around hexproof generals, and it's totally doable without it if you're creative in your selection (use auras that protect themselves like Rancor or Fallen Ideal.
Note: Vigor provides both pump and pseudo-evasion, since no one wants to start blocking Skullbriar and doubling his counters or any such nonsense. Only token decks really have an out to that. Birthing Pod slime - vigor is a pretty common play for me.
As for tutors, yes black doesn't have any enchantment/aura tutors per se. It still has probably the best tutor suite in the game that is limited only by deck space or $$$ (imperial seal, grim tutor being additions to demonic tutor and vampiric tutor).
LOL @ Imperial Seal being 'one of the best'. Mostly because 1) it telegraphs my move next turn, and 2) just watch the reanimator player direct one of his mill spells my way. Vamp Tutor avoids the worst of that by being an instant, but in Portal World, there are no instants.
Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
The manabase and ramp package should explain why that deck is bad on their own without any explanation from me. No control elements, no way to draw cards. It's basically all-in on putting a bunch of pants on things and crossing your fingers.
I get that it's budget but it could still include more than a 10% chance of Bruna dropping before turn 6, and maybe some likelihood of hitting your land drops and colors. Practically no fixing at all.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Teysa, Orzhov Scion ~ Tajic, Blade of the Legion ~ Selvala, Explorer Returned ~ Savra, Queen of the Golgari
Marchesa, the Black Rose ~ Sydri, Galvanic Genius ~ Alesha, Who Smiles at Death ~ Riku of Two Reflections ~ Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
you get to run fun underplayed stuff like
trepanation blade
sword of body and mind
mask of riddles
helm of the ghastlord
whispering madness
sword of war and peace hilarious with whispering madness
hatred
blue black gets quite a bit of evasion lazav is hexproof and can steal value from other decks
i currently have scion the ur-dragon volron with a side of reanimator it 1 shots people most of the time
if i had Hellkite Charger i would have an additional method to do infinite combat phases in addition to
bear umbra
sword of feast and famine
aggravated assault
savage ventmaw
and yes bear umbra is a absolute auto include in uril
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
She's good but still, she has no shroud or hexproof. There tended to be ample opportunity to remove her before she attacked. If you consistently win with her, it means your playgroup doesn't use enough removal. Which means they're noobs. And that's fine, but it gives you a false idea of how good bruna is.
In a meta of strong players I think you'll find that all too often, uril attacks, and bruna doesn't. Either one is awesome if left unchecked, but bruna will be the one spending the most time in the command zone.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Also to add on to what others are saying about your play group not being able to deal with Bruna, Light of Alabaster, If no one is changing their deck to fit the meta your playing EDH wrong. The fun part about building a deck is that its always changing to fit the Meta needs. As new decks come along old decks change. You said that you played this deck about 10 times(and won each time in a Mutiplayer game), if your play group is not remedial they will change up the way their decks play. If they continue to do nothing they are doing it wrong.
My Saffi deck
Bruna is fine but hangs out near the bottom of my top 10 for voltron because she's viciously hard countered by clones. Dack's Duplicate scrubs the smile off her face real fast.
Not to say that she's bad, and she's definitely a pain if you're playing voltron against her. OP's playgroup clearly doesn't play enough spot removal, board wipes, counters, stealing, propagandas, fogs, or clones.
Other topics:
Zur can be a really good voltron commander since he's so efficient and therefore easy to protect. It may be difficult to avoid the temptation to turn him into a harder control deck, but that doesn't mean he isn't great for voltron.
While Skittles is good since in most groups you only have to get in for 10 he's the hardest to protect and the hardest to provide additional evasion to.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
It's not about whether or not you'll get the untap triggers from Bear Umbra or not, because you're right on that: you will. All those combats you push through mean nothing if your opponent doesn't take damage from Uril, though, so the Hellkite was mentioned as a backup Umbra carrier in the event that they name Uril for Runed Halo or something similar.
Teysa, Orzhov Scion ~ Tajic, Blade of the Legion ~ Selvala, Explorer Returned ~ Savra, Queen of the Golgari
Marchesa, the Black Rose ~ Sydri, Galvanic Genius ~ Alesha, Who Smiles at Death ~ Riku of Two Reflections ~ Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
Karona, False God | Sliver King | Horde of Notions | Marchesa, the Black Rose | Rhys the Redeemed | Selvala, Explorer Returned | Angus Mackenale
Vela the Night-Clad | Kaalia of the Vast | Merieke Ri Berit | Jhoira of the Ghitu | Ashling the Pilgrim | Arcum Dagsson
Ertai, Wizard Adept | Glissa, the Traitor | Oona, Queen of the Fae
Here it is - http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/30-04-15-bruna-voltron/
I've added Flickerform, Vanishing now to avoid getting cloned or have my hexproof and then Bruna destroyed in one step. All in all it's about $80 now.
Lots of tutors. My tutor progression is this - Hexproof , flickerform/vanishing , indestructibility , Assault Suit if there's a deck in the game that can force sac , lifelink , everything else. I don't pull her out anymore unless I have a form of haste ready to go due to a couple games where, as people have mentioned, she's essentially target #1 and has been spot wiped a few times.
Also, this deck isn't reliant on Bruna at all I've noticed. What tends to happen now more often is I'll just leave her in the command zone sometimes and use sovereigns of lost alara with daxos of meletis or medomai the ageless and tutor myself some things I need. Since people don't even pay attention to my deck until Bruna is out I can usually blow the game open with Worldslayer and Indestructibility and finish it off without even using her.
As an update - My playgroup has started to pull out their blue decks every time I play this deck. I've played 5 more games with her and nearly lost once when I was prevented from pulling bruna out until the very end due to a planeswalker (can't remember his name) one of my friends had whose up ability was stunning a permanent, which I knew he would've used as soon as I pulled her out and I had no haste in hand at the time. With a little politicking I got someone else to kill him, pulled her out and wiped the board :P.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
(Image by totallynotabrony)
There's nothing wrong with Skullbriar, per se, but he's either equipment based without some of the cheap equipment tutors or enchantment based without some of the best enchantments to resolve his deficits (evasion and primarily protection). Or I guess he's ultimately a mix of both and relying on black tutors.
He also takes 5 swings to kill the first player, even in your Hardened Scales example, assuming no chump blocking or removal. Although I'm sure by that point he should have some kid of equipment or additional pump from something.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
As for tutors, yes black doesn't have any enchantment/aura tutors per se. It still has probably the best tutor suite in the game that is limited only by deck space or $$$ (imperial seal, grim tutor being additions to demonic tutor and vampiric tutor).
Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Mono-U Control
Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
Sen Triplets
Mizzix of the Izmagnus
Derevi Stax
VolThrun
Marchesa, The Black Rose
Olivia Voldaren, Vampire Tribal
Modern: Fish, JUND/Junk
--------
RIP Twin
Having haste and 2CMC and keeping your counters is functionally similar to evasion; the biggest threat to SkullB is theft, and thankfully a natural subtheme for the deck is sacrificing stuff. Fun example is saccing him and recurring him with Sheoldred every turn People love that. Yeah, I'll draw 9 cards, discard 3, and then bring him back next upkeep.
Anyway I concur that Skullbriar is not one of the strongest voltron generals, but he's got many tools. I see most people play Enchantment voltron in a really peculiar say that is built around hexproof generals, and it's totally doable without it if you're creative in your selection (use auras that protect themselves like Rancor or Fallen Ideal.
Some examples of stuff I use:
Note: Vigor provides both pump and pseudo-evasion, since no one wants to start blocking Skullbriar and doubling his counters or any such nonsense. Only token decks really have an out to that. Birthing Pod slime - vigor is a pretty common play for me.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Agreed, I think he's perfectly good (and actually pleasantly different) but doesn't belong in the "best" category for me.
Current Decks
GTitania midrange
RGThromok tokens/goodstuff | UB Grimgrin zombie tribal
GW Sigarda enchantress | R Godo voltron
U Braids aggro | WR Kalemne punisher
RU Mizzix storm | BUG Mimeoplasm competitive reanimator | UG Ezuri infect
LOL @ Imperial Seal being 'one of the best'. Mostly because 1) it telegraphs my move next turn, and 2) just watch the reanimator player direct one of his mill spells my way. Vamp Tutor avoids the worst of that by being an instant, but in Portal World, there are no instants.
TBH, I'd probably pick Beseech the Queen first.
On phasing:
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I get a 404, link doesn't work.
Nah it's there. Or is that a joke on the decklist's behalf?
I get that it's budget but it could still include more than a 10% chance of Bruna dropping before turn 6, and maybe some likelihood of hitting your land drops and colors. Practically no fixing at all.
Meh.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall