Hello. What is the most competitive list you've ever seen? To clarify my question, I'm not asking for the most competitive commander. I'm asking for the most competitive list itself. For instance, it's difficult to argue that Jedit Ojanen is more powerful than Brago, King Eternal, however, it's possible that a Jedit's list is a more powerful one. Furthermore, I'm not asking for a particular strategy. I'm asking for a particular list which should consist of the whole 100 cards (including the commander itself.) In other words, even if Hermit Druid combo is the most powerful strategy in the format, it is very debatable which commander is the best choice etc.
I'm aware that a lot of choices are circumstantial. Nevertheless, I'm asking you as an individual who has experiences of encountering many lists. Your evaluation can (and most likely be bias) but that is alright.
Nope, it is consistent, but a decent control deck can handle it.
Best list I have seen is a Jin-Gitaxias list or Nin, the Pain Artist list. Both are control variants, win nearly immediately.
Jin is really good due to the control aspect of it. If you can guarantee his resolution and protection, you win through free counterspells and crushing card advantage. Extra turn effects mean that you will often win when your opponent has 0 cards in hand and you have taken 5 turns in a row (drawing 8 per turn is legit). Also, having flash you have the option to drop him at your opponents' end step. At that point, you will almost always or always have a counter in hand and they will have only 1 spell to cast, two if the commander is a factor. Keeping two counterspells in mono blue control is pretty simple, so it is easy to win from there.
Nin is similar, but you have access to a sick draw engine and a combo piece in your general. Basically, control, remove, generate infinite mana, give your opponent a creature if they don't have one (Orchard and stuff), make them draw their deck. Early in the game, you have the option to drop Nin, protect her, at your opponent's end step, tap out to draw however many you want, she is back in the command zone, ready to go again.
These lists are built for 1v1, for multiplayer there are so many variables. No deck has a 100% win ratio, and you have a 3 player game, one deck may be better, same goes for 4 player, etc. Also, depending on what your opponents are playing, different decks have different things they can do, so some decks are worse. If you are trying to run Hermit Druid with 2 other control decks, you will almost never win. It is too linear, and they can remove the wincon and then you have to dig for Pull from Eternity. It isn't a bad deck, but can be answered well enough.
My favorite build of mine has to be my Zurgo deck. Has won turn 3 numerous times, often causes opponents to scoop turn 4. It is incredibly efficient, draws plenty, blows up everything the turn after Zurgo hits, and has several other threats in case something happens to Zurgo. Completely full of removal as well, usually it can neuter other threats quickly. Has beat Azami and other good decks and does so with some consistency. A 3 turn clock that has haste is pretty silly, and I love it.
Thank you. That's plausibly true, but I should clarify myself a little bit further. I'm not asking for a particular strategy. I'm asking for a particular list which should consist of the whole 100 cards (including the commander itself.) In other words, even if Hermit Druid combo is the most powerful strategy in the format, it is very debatable which commander is the best choice etc.
I'm aware that a lot of choices are circumstantial. Nevertheless, I'm asking you as an individual who has experiences of encountering many lists. Your evaluation can (and most likely be bias) but that is alright.
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I'm sorry this post is so long, I didn't have time to make it shorter.
i think Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir Control can be quite broken! If you manage to get him out to stick around for your turn, drop Knowledge Pool and you got the game on lockdown. And not only that, it's mono blue.
Never seen anyone using him as a general tho, maybe i shouyld be the one to play him in our group O_O...
My arcum dagsson and captain sisay decks in my sig are the best decks I've seen. As broken as arcum is, my friends tell me that sisay is my best deck. I haven't played against a hermit druid deck so I can't speak to how good that is. I've played against a handful of sharuum decks and wasn't impressed - I'm assuming they weren't fully optimized. Even my daretti deck took care of the last sharuum deck I played against with ease.
I don't have a list, but I know there's a Grixis Storm deck that's quite something in the Multiplayer lists. Also, there was a Narset list posted a few weeks ago that looked sick. I'll try to link them.
My arcum dagsson and captain sisay decks in my sig are the best decks I've seen. As broken as arcum is, my friends tell me that sisay is my best deck. I haven't played against a hermit druid deck so I can't speak to how good that is. I've played against a handful of sharuum decks and wasn't impressed - I'm assuming they weren't fully optimized. Even my daretti deck took care of the last sharuum deck I played against with ease.
Play it sometime on MTGO or Cockatice. Title the room competitive. There are plenty of decks in my meta, none are too amazing/competitive, so I can play the lists that are good for them. However, you take that to a place where other people have good and broken decks, you can quickly tell. Not saying your lists aren't good, haven't looked over them enough, but in order to know how competitive/good your deck is, you must test them against other good/competitive decks.
I would say, tier 1, best generals are (bearing in mind, 1v1, nonfrench):
Jin-Gitaxias, Core-Augur
Nin, the Pain Artist
Zur, the Enchanter
Derevi, Empyrial Tactitian
I know you aren't asking for best generals, but these are the ones where the best lists follow. If you have a good list in their colors, you can have a better list with them at the helm. Also, all of these are the ones that I have seen that have lists to follow. Don't have lists for all of them, but these decks can win very consistently.
THe most competitive I've ever seen...
Well there is a fellow at m LGS who collects and has been collecting for a long long time - and has some pretty pimped out stuff (multiple play sets of dredge skeleton misprints and charlie brown medallions type of collection).
He built like 95% of a dead win Karn list. He could get turn 2 wins very consistently - and sadly the list was a few thousand dollars worth of cards
Well there is a fellow at m LGS who collects and has been collecting for a long long time - and has some pretty pimped out stuff (multiple play sets of dredge skeleton misprints and charlie brown medallions type of collection).
He built like 95% of a dead win Karn list. He could get turn 2 wins very consistently - and sadly the list was a few thousand dollars worth of cards
If someone has a blue dual land in their binder, its probably worth twice as much as all of those misprints combined.
If someone wins on turn 2 consistently with karn, it has nothing to do with how much the deck is worth and everything to do with people not cutting his deck beforehand.
Well there is a fellow at m LGS who collects and has been collecting for a long long time - and has some pretty pimped out stuff (multiple play sets of dredge skeleton misprints and charlie brown medallions type of collection).
He built like 95% of a dead win Karn list. He could get turn 2 wins very consistently - and sadly the list was a few thousand dollars worth of cards
If someone has a blue dual land in their binder, its probably worth twice as much as all of those misprints combined.
If someone wins on turn 2 consistently with karn, it has nothing to do with how much the deck is worth and everything to do with people not cutting his deck beforehand.
Ok first of all let me direct you to the colorless deck list section of this forum. Read the karn decks that are highly competitive. You can drop your entire hand turn one two or three and just flat out proceed to win. and yes they are expensive.
And his misprints are fairly pricey, as well as his full collection of beta duals, B/U power nine, and some other things... sorry I didn't specify for you.
The core list is in the French section by emether. The version on the source in find to be better the general is almost completely irrelevant. It's the best deck because it's enabler is 1 card and the mana barrier to win is 2 so you can just play a tutor filled control shell top your curve at 3 and attempt to win turn 2-4 every game and if you can't protect it you almost always have a way to attempt to win again the very next turn. No
Other combo deck in the format can remain consistent playing that many duress / counterspell slot cards and still win that fast. In fact you can run no control elements at all with the next most efficient combos and still struggle to get the same turn 2-3 win % as Druid. The only drawback to the deck is that it's so good once identified you will be 3:1ed until the critical turn game ends.
I'm a lttle lazy to post a list at the moment, but my friend Rico's Azusa deck is nuts. Uses Bazaar of Baghdad, all the extra land effects, that crazy Satyr from Legends that control magics Legends, Hall of Gemstone, it has easily gone off turn 3-4 with all the mana in play.
Billy's Edric deck was quite good too, he had ALL the time warp effects that cost 5-6, including Capture of Xingzhou (sp?), Temporal Manipulation and the zodiac weenies just cos, more cards.
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The "Crazy One", playing casual magic and occasionally dipping his toes into regular play since 1994.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
Of the decks I've actually played against, there's an Oona deck in my meta that is far and away the most competitive. It consists of three or four infinite mana combos (Oona exiles everyone's library) generally jumping off broken mana rocks, two infinite draw combos plus Enter the Infinite (Laboratory Maniac wins the game), Blightsteel one-shots people, Ulamog and Kozilek beat people down, a few counterspells, and tutors. That's basically the entire deck. Broken/infinite mana, counters, tutors, and a small handful of combos/strong wincons.
The deck is capable of winning T5 or earlier most games, and I've seen it win T2. I've only beaten the deck once, and that was thanks to Child of Alara blowing up his broken mana rocks and Volrath's Stronghold keeping me alive despite having an empty deck... plus a particularly unlucky and poorly-timed Demonic Consultation on his part. (I also managed to stall him out once using Gaddock Teeg hatebears, topdecking answer after answer to his win the turn before he was going to use it. He eventually managed Laboratory Maniac -> Necropotence -> Kozilek for the win, but it took him a long time to get there.)
Pre-ban, I had an Erayo, Soratami Ascendant deck that won every game I played it in (though, I only brought it out when people literally asked me to, because it was pretty antisocial). There was a Vendilion Clique control deck that came close to winning a couple of times, but I'm not sure the owner of that deck had the same depth of card pool I did.
Hermit Druid combo, usually with a 5 color commander (Child of Alara is probably the best), but Sultai BUG and Bant WUG decks can easily utilize the Hermit Druid as win con. I still feel graveyard based combos are really stupidly easy to prepare against and negate.
Oona/Prime Speaker Zegana are two drastically different commanders, but allow you to win the game once you have access to Deadeye+Palinchron.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking + Crucible of Worlds + Strip Mine is brutality against 50% or more of the decks out there. The added benefit with this combo is that its really easy to put these cards in your deck, just because they are all independently good.
Nin, the Pain Artist / Azami, Lady of ScrollsU MONO BLUE CONTROL U essentially any mono blue control deck that focuses on the "Draw-Go" strategy of the good old days. Vendillion Clique, Venser, Shaper Savant, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, even all the way up to big dady Jin Gitaxias, Core Augur. The commander itself for mono blue is less important than the list's ability to "Draw-Go". I include Nin in this selection because the addition of red gives a handful of utility cards to shore up defenses (Chaos Warp, Blasphemous Act, Vandal Blast).
The three best lists I'm aware of for no-holds-barred competitive groups are Scion Hermit Druid, Imperial Animar, and Maralen ANT. All of them reliably win the game by turn 3 and are resilient to disruption.
The three best lists I'm aware of for no-holds-barred competitive groups are Scion Hermit Druid, Imperial Animar, and Maralen ANT. All of them reliably win the game by turn 3 and are resilient to disruption.
Doh! I totally forgot about Imperial Recruiter and Animar! Just recently acquired a goblin settler myself. So Brutal
The three best lists I'm aware of for no-holds-barred competitive groups are Scion Hermit Druid, Imperial Animar, and Maralen ANT. All of them reliably win the game by turn 3 and are resilient to disruption.
I don't get why people list Maralen as the commander for ANT/doomday combo decklists. Surely if anyone has the slightest clue what's going on, they'll tutor for either removal for maralen or a counterspell for whatever you tutor for? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to use XHD? At least he provides some actual utility.
To the OP, I think it's kind of hard to say. Combo decks get brought up a lot because it's easy to compare the reliability of a turn X combo win, but some of my most reliable decks instead focused on playing the table and shunning the spotlight. I don't think it's easy to say what competitive means in multiplayer, it's dependent on a lot of factors.
The three best lists I'm aware of for no-holds-barred competitive groups are Scion Hermit Druid, Imperial Animar, and Maralen ANT. All of them reliably win the game by turn 3 and are resilient to disruption.
I don't get why people list Maralen as the commander for ANT/doomday combo decklists. Surely if anyone has the slightest clue what's going on, they'll tutor for either removal for maralen or a counterspell for whatever you tutor for? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to use XHD? At least he provides some actual utility.
To the OP, I think it's kind of hard to say. Combo decks get brought up a lot because it's easy to compare the reliability of a turn X combo win, but some of my most reliable decks instead focused on playing the table and shunning the spotlight. I don't think it's easy to say what competitive means in multiplayer, it's dependent on a lot of factors.
I agree with your XhD over maralen statement so much. A pretty good xhd storm list was posted here about a month back for reference if anyone wants. The thing with mono black storm though is how all in it normally is for this sort of deck. They (storm decks) reallllly want blue for cantrips, draw, counters and a few other broken cards. You don't need blue to storm 40, but it sure is noticeable when constructing something 'broken'.
My storm decks are 'casual' but if I wanted to take one to something more competitive I'd take moxnix list in a heartbeat. Decent defense and so many paths to quick kills; def more competitive then anything I have sleeved. ... And he says above in this thread he thinks hermit druid is better? Guess that gets my vote too.
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I'm aware that a lot of choices are circumstantial. Nevertheless, I'm asking you as an individual who has experiences of encountering many lists. Your evaluation can (and most likely be bias) but that is alright.
Of course, you could post more than one list.
This deck has been featured in Gathering Magic by Carlos Gutierrez
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Nope, it is consistent, but a decent control deck can handle it.
Best list I have seen is a Jin-Gitaxias list or Nin, the Pain Artist list. Both are control variants, win nearly immediately.
Jin is really good due to the control aspect of it. If you can guarantee his resolution and protection, you win through free counterspells and crushing card advantage. Extra turn effects mean that you will often win when your opponent has 0 cards in hand and you have taken 5 turns in a row (drawing 8 per turn is legit). Also, having flash you have the option to drop him at your opponents' end step. At that point, you will almost always or always have a counter in hand and they will have only 1 spell to cast, two if the commander is a factor. Keeping two counterspells in mono blue control is pretty simple, so it is easy to win from there.
Nin is similar, but you have access to a sick draw engine and a combo piece in your general. Basically, control, remove, generate infinite mana, give your opponent a creature if they don't have one (Orchard and stuff), make them draw their deck. Early in the game, you have the option to drop Nin, protect her, at your opponent's end step, tap out to draw however many you want, she is back in the command zone, ready to go again.
These lists are built for 1v1, for multiplayer there are so many variables. No deck has a 100% win ratio, and you have a 3 player game, one deck may be better, same goes for 4 player, etc. Also, depending on what your opponents are playing, different decks have different things they can do, so some decks are worse. If you are trying to run Hermit Druid with 2 other control decks, you will almost never win. It is too linear, and they can remove the wincon and then you have to dig for Pull from Eternity. It isn't a bad deck, but can be answered well enough.
My favorite build of mine has to be my Zurgo deck. Has won turn 3 numerous times, often causes opponents to scoop turn 4. It is incredibly efficient, draws plenty, blows up everything the turn after Zurgo hits, and has several other threats in case something happens to Zurgo. Completely full of removal as well, usually it can neuter other threats quickly. Has beat Azami and other good decks and does so with some consistency. A 3 turn clock that has haste is pretty silly, and I love it.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Thank you. That's plausibly true, but I should clarify myself a little bit further. I'm not asking for a particular strategy. I'm asking for a particular list which should consist of the whole 100 cards (including the commander itself.) In other words, even if Hermit Druid combo is the most powerful strategy in the format, it is very debatable which commander is the best choice etc.
I'm aware that a lot of choices are circumstantial. Nevertheless, I'm asking you as an individual who has experiences of encountering many lists. Your evaluation can (and most likely be bias) but that is alright.
This deck has been featured in Gathering Magic by Carlos Gutierrez
Never seen anyone using him as a general tho, maybe i shouyld be the one to play him in our group O_O...
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Edit: Moxnix's Grixis Storm deck - http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/multiplayer-commander-decklists/572535-jeleva-grixis-storm
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
Play it sometime on MTGO or Cockatice. Title the room competitive. There are plenty of decks in my meta, none are too amazing/competitive, so I can play the lists that are good for them. However, you take that to a place where other people have good and broken decks, you can quickly tell. Not saying your lists aren't good, haven't looked over them enough, but in order to know how competitive/good your deck is, you must test them against other good/competitive decks.
I would say, tier 1, best generals are (bearing in mind, 1v1, nonfrench):
Jin-Gitaxias, Core-Augur
Nin, the Pain Artist
Zur, the Enchanter
Derevi, Empyrial Tactitian
I know you aren't asking for best generals, but these are the ones where the best lists follow. If you have a good list in their colors, you can have a better list with them at the helm. Also, all of these are the ones that I have seen that have lists to follow. Don't have lists for all of them, but these decks can win very consistently.
MTGS egos at their finest.
Thoughts on proxies:
Well there is a fellow at m LGS who collects and has been collecting for a long long time - and has some pretty pimped out stuff (multiple play sets of dredge skeleton misprints and charlie brown medallions type of collection).
He built like 95% of a dead win Karn list. He could get turn 2 wins very consistently - and sadly the list was a few thousand dollars worth of cards
If someone wins on turn 2 consistently with karn, it has nothing to do with how much the deck is worth and everything to do with people not cutting his deck beforehand.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
Ok first of all let me direct you to the colorless deck list section of this forum. Read the karn decks that are highly competitive. You can drop your entire hand turn one two or three and just flat out proceed to win. and yes they are expensive.
And his misprints are fairly pricey, as well as his full collection of beta duals, B/U power nine, and some other things... sorry I didn't specify for you.
Other combo deck in the format can remain consistent playing that many duress / counterspell slot cards and still win that fast. In fact you can run no control elements at all with the next most efficient combos and still struggle to get the same turn 2-3 win % as Druid. The only drawback to the deck is that it's so good once identified you will be 3:1ed until the critical turn game ends.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Billy's Edric deck was quite good too, he had ALL the time warp effects that cost 5-6, including Capture of Xingzhou (sp?), Temporal Manipulation and the zodiac weenies just cos, more cards.
Currently focusing on Pre-Modern (Mono-Black Discard Control) and Modern (Azorious Control, Temur Rhinos).
Find me at the Wizard's Tower in Ottawa every second Saturday afternoons.
The deck is capable of winning T5 or earlier most games, and I've seen it win T2. I've only beaten the deck once, and that was thanks to Child of Alara blowing up his broken mana rocks and Volrath's Stronghold keeping me alive despite having an empty deck... plus a particularly unlucky and poorly-timed Demonic Consultation on his part. (I also managed to stall him out once using Gaddock Teeg hatebears, topdecking answer after answer to his win the turn before he was going to use it. He eventually managed Laboratory Maniac -> Necropotence -> Kozilek for the win, but it took him a long time to get there.)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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I'm told there are some crazy Edric, Spymaster of Trest decks out there.
http://www.commandercast.com/category/articles/generally-speaking
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Ad Nauseum + Tendrils of Agony in either a mono black (I've seen Maralen of the Mornsong as a good ANT commander) or blue/black (Usually Oona, Queen of the Fae because you can use her as a back up plan when you get infinite, sometimes Sygg, River Cutthroat).
Hermit Druid combo, usually with a 5 color commander (Child of Alara is probably the best), but Sultai BUG and Bant WUG decks can easily utilize the Hermit Druid as win con. I still feel graveyard based combos are really stupidly easy to prepare against and negate.
Oona/Prime Speaker Zegana are two drastically different commanders, but allow you to win the game once you have access to Deadeye+Palinchron.
Azusa, Lost but Seeking + Crucible of Worlds + Strip Mine is brutality against 50% or more of the decks out there. The added benefit with this combo is that its really easy to put these cards in your deck, just because they are all independently good.
Nin, the Pain Artist / Azami, Lady of Scrolls U MONO BLUE CONTROL U essentially any mono blue control deck that focuses on the "Draw-Go" strategy of the good old days. Vendillion Clique, Venser, Shaper Savant, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir, even all the way up to big dady Jin Gitaxias, Core Augur. The commander itself for mono blue is less important than the list's ability to "Draw-Go". I include Nin in this selection because the addition of red gives a handful of utility cards to shore up defenses (Chaos Warp, Blasphemous Act, Vandal Blast).
But the tightest, most anti-social deck list I've seen has got to be Zur, the Enchanter, in particular Brian Weissman's list that focuses on Rest in Peace + Helm of Obedience as the kill.
[Semi-Competitive] GWUB "NO" GWUB 89%
Thrasios and Tymna aggro-control voltron-combo
"No machinations, no puppet strings, no plots. Just pure, sweeping death."
—Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Edric | Skithiryx | Merieke | Talrand
--------------------------
Well except for pauper EDH
Garruk's Packleader | Inkfathom Witch | Gelectrode | Sigil Captain | Glider Barin | Sludge Strider | Paragon of the Ameshsa
Doh! I totally forgot about Imperial Recruiter and Animar! Just recently acquired a goblin settler myself. So Brutal
[Semi-Competitive] GWUB "NO" GWUB 89%
Thrasios and Tymna aggro-control voltron-combo
"No machinations, no puppet strings, no plots. Just pure, sweeping death."
—Tasigur, the Golden Fang
To the OP, I think it's kind of hard to say. Combo decks get brought up a lot because it's easy to compare the reliability of a turn X combo win, but some of my most reliable decks instead focused on playing the table and shunning the spotlight. I don't think it's easy to say what competitive means in multiplayer, it's dependent on a lot of factors.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I agree with your XhD over maralen statement so much. A pretty good xhd storm list was posted here about a month back for reference if anyone wants. The thing with mono black storm though is how all in it normally is for this sort of deck. They (storm decks) reallllly want blue for cantrips, draw, counters and a few other broken cards. You don't need blue to storm 40, but it sure is noticeable when constructing something 'broken'.
My storm decks are 'casual' but if I wanted to take one to something more competitive I'd take moxnix list in a heartbeat. Decent defense and so many paths to quick kills; def more competitive then anything I have sleeved. ... And he says above in this thread he thinks hermit druid is better? Guess that gets my vote too.
Gitrog Lands
Merieke Ri Berit Flicker
Ramos, Dragon Engine Storm