So I hear a lot of hate for MLD and, on these forums, the "reasonable moderate" position seems to be that MLD is okay, but only if you have an immediate way to win afterwards. I disagree.
I was playing a game last night where my Hanna, Ship's Navigator deck was down to a 1v1 versus a Xenagos, God of Revels deck, and was getting stomped. I was at 3 life and 7 land while my opponent had 42 life and 13 land. My decks do not have any MLD in them. However, I had a nevinyrral's disk out ready to go off and could have used that to buy myself a turn or two.
Looking at the boardstate though, I decided not to just pop it. Instead, I first played Enchanted Evening so that it would blow up all permanents, and then I burned the world down. At this time, I had no immediate way to win, but what I did know was that:
1. I was almost certainly going to lose within a couple of turns if I didn't do something drastic.
2. I had six cards in my hand (no lands, though), while he only had two.
3. I had more of my lands left in my deck than he did.
So I blew up everything with no plan, but knowing that I was in a better position to recover than he was. Seven very quick turns later, I had an Elspeth, Knight Errant out and, since he had not drawn many lands or any cheap answers, she quickly took over the game and I was able to bring him down from 42 life with a swarm of indestructible soldiers.
It was a very interesting game and a fantastic comeback that would never have happened if our group didn't allow MLD. It makes me wonder why MLD is held to this "you must win immediately thereafter" standard when almost any other play is allowed even when it gives only an incremental advantage. I think I am going to start including MLD (or mass permanent destruction) in more of my decks, because it is such an effective way to either lock up a slightly superior position, or reset an inferior position.
Yeah see, in your situation, it was your only way out. But imagine a game like this.
We're at Turn 4. Player A has 4 land and a Sol Ring. Player B has 5 land due to some prior small ramp. Player C has 3 land and 2 Signets. Player D's turn, he plays his 4th land...and follows up with Armageddon. Was there any reason for that? Most likely not. Now players A and C have a nice advantage, while Player B is left with nothing and a card (ramp card) down. This is the kind of situation that make people frown at MLD.
If you have a good plan behind it, or use it to win the game, be my guest. Sadly, most people don't. There are more Jokers than Ra's Al Ghuls at EDH.
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My Commander decks:
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
In this scenario i see nothing wrong with your play. I personally don't like it when people blow everything up just for the sake of doing it. If your about to die I see nothing wrong with wrecking the table.
Yeah, an example of MLD being a good strategic move in a 1v1 game doesn't really have any bearing on the claim "Mass land destruction is always okay."
The problem with MLD is when it turns players into spectators, particularly in a multiplayer EDH game, where they're going to be sitting around not playing Magic for a significant amount of time. If you're building a deck with the goal of playing some enjoyable multiplayer games, including mass land destruction, especially cheap, easy-to-assemble mass land destruction, is simply a mistake.
Personally I am the only one who likes to play mass land destruction in my playgroup but my group has started to accept my views on it as I use it as a balancing effect as we are playing a game of resource management. Lands like your library, life, and everything else are resources that need to be managed. it like if you drop all 30 creatures from your deck and then get board-wiped, that wont be frowned upon and my view is the kid who boundless realms all his lands out when he complains about getting all his lands nuked out that you should know I could play MLD and plan for it.
The problem with MLD is when it turns players into spectators, particularly in a multiplayer EDH game, where they're going to be sitting around not playing Magic for a significant amount of time. If you're building a deck with the goal of playing some enjoyable multiplayer games, including mass land destruction, especially cheap, easy-to-assemble mass land destruction, is simply a mistake.
More opinions stated as facts. Players who overextend turn themselves into spectators. Furthermore, "enjoyable" -- much like the ever contentious "casual" -- is subjective. I play games with other adults who enjoy a challenge. Would that more Magic players treated the game like any other. I never hear complaints like these about other multiplayer games.
Personally I am the only one who likes to play mass land destruction in my playgroup but my group has started to accept my views on it as I use it as a balancing effect as we are playing a game of resource management. Lands like your library, life, and everything else are resources that need to be managed. it like if you drop all 30 creatures from your deck and then get board-wiped, that wont be frowned upon and my view is the kid who boundless realms all his lands out when he complains about getting all his lands nuked out that you should know I could play MLD and plan for it.
This. EVERYTHING about this.
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There are no divisions: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. -Galatians 3:28
evry time i have played against MLD it has been some troll who was losing the whole game and we left him alone so that he could get back into the game and interract and then when he did he destroyed all lands. makes for a very angry table when we try to do him a solid and he screws us like that. and it turns a fun game into an everlasting starefest where we all draw a card and pass for 7 turns until someone starts drawing land again. its like playing solitaire with people watching and expecting excitement. honestly though, your play was brilliant. i have done some things that i would normally be against as a viable strategy but only in the context you described...backed up in a corner and the opportunity presented itself. i never plan for MLD. having lands is what makes EDH interactive and allows all to enjoy the game, even after a board wipe. those with lands and a hand to recover will not complain. but a land wipe will cause a whole lot of disgruntled players. my play group even kicked a guy out for MLD (it was against the stores tournament rules. so even though it was not a tournament at the time, we asked him to leave rather than saying it was ok to do that "just this once") MLD is no fun for anyone. and if youre a competitive player saying that its ok or even applauded, thats pretty sad. you should be able to win without bringing down the value of the games for others. i play competitively and have never used MLD. its just foul play.
WE had a game where a Zurgo player missed a couple of landdrops, got hit 2 times and got frustrated. So he played an Armageddon. We were ok with it since everybody had to play it out. BUT he left after the next player started his turn, he just scooped up his deck and left.
We kinda said **** that ***** and brought back our lands. Then he came back and said, "hey you're breaking the rules, i casted the armageddon, your lands should be in the graveyard!"
It was one of the doucheiest moves i've seen lol, and this was paper magic! Not MTGO.
I've destroyed someones manabase with my Karn deck after o pooped out i hand and was at 20 ish or lower lifetotal since someone was about to cast Merciless Eviction, that person did not like it. But i killed him 2 turns later.
But then there's the dude that had Daxos in play equiped with a Darksteel Plate and a Worldslayer. We played it out.
There are certain time its ok, and there's times were it's just stupid.
Armageddon as a win-con after you've set up a winning board state? Cool.
Armageddon in a deck that can use stuff to make it one-sided (Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds)? Sure.
Armageddon as a counter to mass land ramp decks? Go for it.
Armageddon as a "I'm not winning so I'm going to make it so no one else gets to play either" move? Go to hell. Stay there.
One shop I frequent has players with long memories. If you pull that move, they will ensure you never enjoy a game of EDH there ever again.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
When I sit down at a table, I want to have a shot to play a few games in an evening. If someone plays a staxxy or MLD deck, I'll first look to play with another group in the shop I'm in - because dreadfully long games are my least favorite aspect of the game. And that's it - I don't hate the strategy or feel it's unfair. I just don't want to play against a strategy that attacks my (personally) most valuable resource - my free time.
Most of the people who do have decks like this in my regular playgroups typically inspire all opponents (usually 3 to 5) to band together and immediately target them and counter/aggro/hate them out of every single game for the rest of the evening - largely because it's increasingly hilarious to see how worked up they get. Usually after 2 or 3 more games of being the first player to get knocked out they'll get all huffy puffy and storm off. This is a great example of a self-regulating metagame, I reckon.
I'll happily play Heartbeat of Spring, Mana Flare and Howling Mine effects because it speeds the game up, even if I don't win.
MLD is fine in most cases, IMO. I think that casting it "just because" instead of any sort of tactical reason is pretty infuriating, but that has more to do with how I look at the game, rather than it being MLD. I think countering Crystal Ball with Annul "just because" is pretty ******* silly too.
I'm perfectly fine with MLD in just about every situation. It's just that when people use it as a death by durdle excuse or a "for the lulz" moment I feel that they're using it wrong. And, when I mean death by durdle I don't mean that they're grinding out their win - I mean that they don't really have their win condition set up and its just resetting the board into a state that is just about impossible for everyone to cover from.
MLD with your win condition on the board? Awesome
MLD when you know that that green deck just ate every basic land in their deck? Awesome
MLD to shut down that x=absurd Exsanguinate before it starts? Sure
MLD because you don't have anything better to do? Why?
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I had the pleasure of knowing a playgroup that banned all land destruction and it degenerated into nothing but mass ramp decks with boseiju and x-spells. It sucked.
When I sit down at a table, I want to have a shot to play a few games in an evening. If someone plays a staxxy or MLD deck, I'll first look to play with another group in the shop I'm in - because dreadfully long games are my least favorite aspect of the game. And that's it - I don't hate the strategy or feel it's unfair. I just don't want to play against a strategy that attacks my (personally) most valuable resource - my free time.
In all fairness, a properly used MLD will give you more overall games because it secures their win.
Even if the author is silenced, the performance is stopped, the story will not end.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
We are playing magic not "sit around and wait to draw land"
We don't ban MLD as such we just have a soft ban as there are game states we are not ok with. the sit around and do nothing until we draw 4 lands to continue the game is not a game state we want to happen very often.
Even though in the rare times it has happend, caused by card interactions normally, I have won (Avatar of Woe.. reminded as to why its in my deck)
If the players only goal is to win sure play it all you like, but we'd like to have fun whille playing the game at some point.
We are playing magic not "sit around and wait to draw land"
This is the part I don't get. How long are you taking to draw a card, maybe play a land, and pass your turn? In this most recent game I'm talking about, it took us no more than 5 minutes total to do 7 turns each and get back up to 4 land. A single person's turn can easily take that long when everyone has 15 mana.
It is not absoulte time it is I am not doing anything, when someone is taking time in thier turn I am planning my next move... when my next move requires me to draw 5 lands then I have little hope of getting to play again.
Then one person, gets lucky gets those lands and plays a random dork and starts the 1 damage beat down. whoo yeah so much fun... and no one can stop that guy from killing us all because we just didn't draw a land. maybe they get lucky and have an actual threat ok... well we can wait form him to slowly kill us all 6 damage at time whille we hope to draw a land for our remove. we are now playing "watch this guy attack whille we hope for a land". inveterably you just wont draw a land for 5 turns whille you still need another 5 to play anything in your hand.
Someone wraths you can play a token maker or recur/reanimate, someone mind twists you, you can top deck a draw spell. You get MLD you can't play more than 1 land a turn you are stuck waiting for one to appear before you get to play. Completely at the mercy of the top of your deck before you get to play again.
When everyone has 15 mana, which is honestly not that common not sure why people think that is the norm. then everyone is 1 spell from killing everyone and we are waiting for who moves first to set of the cascade of question and answer, it is exciting and interactive. MLD and no one can stop anyone else from doing anything because WE CAN"T DO ANYTHING.
Armageddon as a win-con after you've set up a winning board state? Cool.
Armageddon in a deck that can use stuff to make it one-sided (Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds)? Sure.
Armageddon as a counter to mass land ramp decks? Go for it.
Armageddon as a "I'm not winning so I'm going to make it so no one else gets to play either" move? Go to hell. Stay there.
This, personally, is where I stand on the whole thing. It's not so much that it happens, but that what happens afterward may stop anyone from playing much magic. And it's NOT just people who overextend. If you don't have any lands in hand, and don't draw any for several turns, you're SCREWED unless you have a lot of alternate sources of mana. I know that's slim, but it happens quite often when I see MLD. The other deal I see is when the game has already gone on VERY long and blowing up the world just makes it longer. I have seen this too, so while it may not happen all the time, it can happen. And those are pretty much the two reasons I hate the idea. But once again, it all comes down to playgroup. Some groups like challenge, some just want to see something silly. For some it works, for some, now so much. Balance is key.
I hate MLD, many players do, and in EDH MLD can slow the game down drastically (I was playing a game a few nights ago that went over three hours. If an obliterate had been played, we would have gone on for another 2 maybe three hours just getting back to where we were)
Now that does not mean MLD is bad, but generally it is frowned upon. I did play a game about two months ago where a guy play Jakulhaups twice in a single game. Granted I did ramp fairly quickly and managed to recover well after the first. The second one slowed me down and a game that i was sure to win, I lost. But no after EVERYONE ganged up on the guy who played Jaukhaups. Once was okay we were able to recover as turn 3 is stupid to play it. When you play it a second time by casting Snapcaster and playing it again, well that's when people hate you. (He played it as I was coming after him. To stop my token army. Didn't realize you piss off everyone when you play MLD multiple times a game. (You piss everyone off the first time, you have no right to play it multiple times.
Of coarse, If I do build narset, chances are I will run MLD (Maybe Armageddon as I will no longer need lands if narset is running properly. Maybe find a way to make her indest and then use jakaulhaps.
Armageddon as a win-con after you've set up a winning board state? Cool.
Armageddon in a deck that can use stuff to make it one-sided (Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds)? Sure.
Armageddon as a counter to mass land ramp decks? Go for it.
Armageddon as a "I'm not winning so I'm going to make it so no one else gets to play either" move? Go to hell. Stay there.
One shop I frequent has players with long memories. If you pull that move, they will ensure you never enjoy a game of EDH there ever again.
Sounds like a scrub-fest. MLD as a panic button is totally legit. Hell, if I have a mana rock and 2 lands in my hand I will definitely turn-4 Armageddon as a value play. I probably just 12-for-1ed (or more) the table. If they want me, come and get me. I know enough to pack a ton of answers and sweepers in my deck. Anyhow, my point is that if you limit yourself strategically, it's just poor play. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of optimization. If you want to purposely limit yourself with rules not included in the game itself, it's just scrubdom. Also, I'm soooo glad that I don't play at your store.
Armageddon as a win-con after you've set up a winning board state? Cool.
Armageddon in a deck that can use stuff to make it one-sided (Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds)? Sure.
Armageddon as a counter to mass land ramp decks? Go for it.
Armageddon as a "I'm not winning so I'm going to make it so no one else gets to play either" move? Go to hell. Stay there.
One shop I frequent has players with long memories. If you pull that move, they will ensure you never enjoy a game of EDH there ever again.
Sounds like a scrub-fest. MLD as a panic button is totally legit. Hell, if I have a mana rock and 2 lands in my hand I will definitely turn-4 Armageddon as a value play. I probably just 12-for-1ed (or more) the table. If they want me, come and get me. I know enough to pack a ton of answers and sweepers in my deck. Anyhow, my point is that if you limit yourself strategically, it's just poor play. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of optimization. If you want to purposely limit yourself with rules not included in the game itself, it's just scrubdom. Also, I'm soooo glad that I don't play at your store.
My thoughts exactly. With it being Multiplayer this means I need to keep my advantage typically at any cost. And typically with my playgroup I don't nuke it until I have Sun titan or life from the loam in my hand but I often wait until at least turn 6. With my playgroup I have explained it several times and they seem to understand that I don't like battlecrusier magic just like they don't like MLD. Magic is wanting to win typically and my group has come to that understanding. We play it like a resource management game rather than the Timmy game that a lot of stores seem to like it. That's not to say that we don't enjoy the smashface with big creatures and spells at times but we prefer to keep things unpredictable thus we have come to terms with unexpected things will happen and we may spike it up for a game or two but we have an agreement that if someone does something we don't like you must adjust rather than whine and focus them for it in a later game.
I think it's important to pick your spot. Just throwing about Armageddons is kinda douchey. However as a means to an actual end I see it as fine. Example: Several Bearer of the Heavens float around my meta. My friend Ray's Mayael, my Rakdos, Lord of Riots. So the other day I was against my friend's Mayael and another friend playing Rakdos. I was playing my Zurgo tokens deck. Rakdos gets a bearer into play and Mayael is starting to play haymakers every turn. I have a bunch random stuff, Zurgo and Heliod. There's a Doom Blade in my hand. I see my path to victoy. So I doom blade the bearer, blow up the world... Except Zurgo and Heliod. So now I'm free to kill them with Zurgo, right? Well I attack Mayael for lethal. Pass to Rakdos who proceeds to rip land number three and unleash the Anger of the Gods (much to Ray's dismay). I however fail to draw land number four to cast the Warleader's helix in my hand. Moral of the story? Pick your spot, don't be a dick and never give up.
I'm fine with land destruction, but it's not fair to say that to not overextend means you won't have a problem. My more competitive decks handle Mass land destruction fine, but my casual ones don't. Most people's more casual decks I would bet don't have as tight a curve and are probably a bit slower than a tuned list. It's just something that many people aren't prepared for. To better prepare for it will usually mean making the deck better, and not everyone wants their decks to be tuned. I can understand when people say they feel helpless after a wipe. It sucks having your lands wiped and then waiting for a while to do anything relevant. That's why I like being able to win fairly shortly after I wipe people's lands. As long as the mass LD has a purpose it's fine, but nobody likes a troll.
The problem is if its in your deck, you will use it whenever it suits you then try to justify it afterwards, just like the original poster.
Yeah I get it we are all noobs with bad decks, sure whatever, but we aren't winning a tournament we are just trying to have fun. The post MLD game state is just not a fun game state.
I know the ramp into exsanguinate or TnN or whatever late game power card is also annoying if it happens enough times if you can do it fast, constantly and can easily get past our interaction, you manage to survive after we start archenemying you after you have won three games in a row etc. then your deck is not right for our meta and you should build a new one or find people that will play against that kind of deck
So MLD is not ok if the people you are playing against aren't ok with it, if their decks aren't built to deal with and if you aren't prepared to be run out of town for doing it.
MLD feels cheap. It feels like a "You can't build a better deck than me or with more synergy so you shove a bunch of land destruction in to slow me down enough for your *****ty deck to do its thing."
I really really feel like LD is a cheap way to win. I'd much rather someone go infinite and win in one turn than have to play out ten to fifteen gruesome turns where only one player can play. That's not the nature of what's supposed to be a fun game mode.
I hate Daretti so much.
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My modern Decks: GBRJundGBR URWJeskai NahiriURW My Legacy Deck: URBGrixis DelverURB My EDH Decks: GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB GRhys, The RedeemedW RWArchangel AvacynRW UWDragonlord OjutaiUW
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I was playing a game last night where my Hanna, Ship's Navigator deck was down to a 1v1 versus a Xenagos, God of Revels deck, and was getting stomped. I was at 3 life and 7 land while my opponent had 42 life and 13 land. My decks do not have any MLD in them. However, I had a nevinyrral's disk out ready to go off and could have used that to buy myself a turn or two.
Looking at the boardstate though, I decided not to just pop it. Instead, I first played Enchanted Evening so that it would blow up all permanents, and then I burned the world down. At this time, I had no immediate way to win, but what I did know was that:
1. I was almost certainly going to lose within a couple of turns if I didn't do something drastic.
2. I had six cards in my hand (no lands, though), while he only had two.
3. I had more of my lands left in my deck than he did.
So I blew up everything with no plan, but knowing that I was in a better position to recover than he was. Seven very quick turns later, I had an Elspeth, Knight Errant out and, since he had not drawn many lands or any cheap answers, she quickly took over the game and I was able to bring him down from 42 life with a swarm of indestructible soldiers.
It was a very interesting game and a fantastic comeback that would never have happened if our group didn't allow MLD. It makes me wonder why MLD is held to this "you must win immediately thereafter" standard when almost any other play is allowed even when it gives only an incremental advantage. I think I am going to start including MLD (or mass permanent destruction) in more of my decks, because it is such an effective way to either lock up a slightly superior position, or reset an inferior position.
We're at Turn 4. Player A has 4 land and a Sol Ring. Player B has 5 land due to some prior small ramp. Player C has 3 land and 2 Signets. Player D's turn, he plays his 4th land...and follows up with Armageddon. Was there any reason for that? Most likely not. Now players A and C have a nice advantage, while Player B is left with nothing and a card (ramp card) down. This is the kind of situation that make people frown at MLD.
If you have a good plan behind it, or use it to win the game, be my guest. Sadly, most people don't. There are more Jokers than Ra's Al Ghuls at EDH.
Chandra, Torch of Defiance - Oops! All Chandras.
Prime Speaker Zegana - Draw for Power.
Pir & Toothy - Counterpalooza.
Arcades, the Strategist - Another Brick in the Wall.
Zacama, Primal Calamity - Calamity of Double Mana.
Edgar Markov - Vampires Don't Die.
Child of Alara - Dreamcrusher.
The problem with MLD is when it turns players into spectators, particularly in a multiplayer EDH game, where they're going to be sitting around not playing Magic for a significant amount of time. If you're building a deck with the goal of playing some enjoyable multiplayer games, including mass land destruction, especially cheap, easy-to-assemble mass land destruction, is simply a mistake.
This. EVERYTHING about this.
Give Zaliki a CardI must have all the cats!
We kinda said **** that ***** and brought back our lands. Then he came back and said, "hey you're breaking the rules, i casted the armageddon, your lands should be in the graveyard!"
It was one of the doucheiest moves i've seen lol, and this was paper magic! Not MTGO.
I've destroyed someones manabase with my Karn deck after o pooped out i hand and was at 20 ish or lower lifetotal since someone was about to cast Merciless Eviction, that person did not like it. But i killed him 2 turns later.
But then there's the dude that had Daxos in play equiped with a Darksteel Plate and a Worldslayer. We played it out.
There are certain time its ok, and there's times were it's just stupid.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Armageddon in a deck that can use stuff to make it one-sided (Life from the Loam, Crucible of Worlds)? Sure.
Armageddon as a counter to mass land ramp decks? Go for it.
Armageddon as a "I'm not winning so I'm going to make it so no one else gets to play either" move? Go to hell. Stay there.
One shop I frequent has players with long memories. If you pull that move, they will ensure you never enjoy a game of EDH there ever again.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
Most of the people who do have decks like this in my regular playgroups typically inspire all opponents (usually 3 to 5) to band together and immediately target them and counter/aggro/hate them out of every single game for the rest of the evening - largely because it's increasingly hilarious to see how worked up they get. Usually after 2 or 3 more games of being the first player to get knocked out they'll get all huffy puffy and storm off. This is a great example of a self-regulating metagame, I reckon.
I'll happily play Heartbeat of Spring, Mana Flare and Howling Mine effects because it speeds the game up, even if I don't win.
UAzami, Locus of All KnowledgeU
BMarrow-Gnawer, Crime Lord of ComboB
WBRTariel, Hellraiser StaxWBR
Annul is really good in EDH
MLD with your win condition on the board? Awesome
MLD when you know that that green deck just ate every basic land in their deck? Awesome
MLD to shut down that x=absurd Exsanguinate before it starts? Sure
MLD because you don't have anything better to do? Why?
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I had the pleasure of knowing a playgroup that banned all land destruction and it degenerated into nothing but mass ramp decks with boseiju and x-spells. It sucked.
In all fairness, a properly used MLD will give you more overall games because it secures their win.
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
We are playing magic not "sit around and wait to draw land"
We don't ban MLD as such we just have a soft ban as there are game states we are not ok with. the sit around and do nothing until we draw 4 lands to continue the game is not a game state we want to happen very often.
Even though in the rare times it has happend, caused by card interactions normally, I have won (Avatar of Woe.. reminded as to why its in my deck)
If the players only goal is to win sure play it all you like, but we'd like to have fun whille playing the game at some point.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
This is the part I don't get. How long are you taking to draw a card, maybe play a land, and pass your turn? In this most recent game I'm talking about, it took us no more than 5 minutes total to do 7 turns each and get back up to 4 land. A single person's turn can easily take that long when everyone has 15 mana.
Then one person, gets lucky gets those lands and plays a random dork and starts the 1 damage beat down. whoo yeah so much fun... and no one can stop that guy from killing us all because we just didn't draw a land. maybe they get lucky and have an actual threat ok... well we can wait form him to slowly kill us all 6 damage at time whille we hope to draw a land for our remove. we are now playing "watch this guy attack whille we hope for a land". inveterably you just wont draw a land for 5 turns whille you still need another 5 to play anything in your hand.
Someone wraths you can play a token maker or recur/reanimate, someone mind twists you, you can top deck a draw spell. You get MLD you can't play more than 1 land a turn you are stuck waiting for one to appear before you get to play. Completely at the mercy of the top of your deck before you get to play again.
When everyone has 15 mana, which is honestly not that common not sure why people think that is the norm. then everyone is 1 spell from killing everyone and we are waiting for who moves first to set of the cascade of question and answer, it is exciting and interactive. MLD and no one can stop anyone else from doing anything because WE CAN"T DO ANYTHING.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
This, personally, is where I stand on the whole thing. It's not so much that it happens, but that what happens afterward may stop anyone from playing much magic. And it's NOT just people who overextend. If you don't have any lands in hand, and don't draw any for several turns, you're SCREWED unless you have a lot of alternate sources of mana. I know that's slim, but it happens quite often when I see MLD. The other deal I see is when the game has already gone on VERY long and blowing up the world just makes it longer. I have seen this too, so while it may not happen all the time, it can happen. And those are pretty much the two reasons I hate the idea. But once again, it all comes down to playgroup. Some groups like challenge, some just want to see something silly. For some it works, for some, now so much. Balance is key.
Now that does not mean MLD is bad, but generally it is frowned upon. I did play a game about two months ago where a guy play Jakulhaups twice in a single game. Granted I did ramp fairly quickly and managed to recover well after the first. The second one slowed me down and a game that i was sure to win, I lost. But no after EVERYONE ganged up on the guy who played Jaukhaups. Once was okay we were able to recover as turn 3 is stupid to play it. When you play it a second time by casting Snapcaster and playing it again, well that's when people hate you. (He played it as I was coming after him. To stop my token army. Didn't realize you piss off everyone when you play MLD multiple times a game. (You piss everyone off the first time, you have no right to play it multiple times.
Of coarse, If I do build narset, chances are I will run MLD (Maybe Armageddon as I will no longer need lands if narset is running properly. Maybe find a way to make her indest and then use jakaulhaps.
UB Vela the Night-Clad BUDecklist
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Sounds like a scrub-fest. MLD as a panic button is totally legit. Hell, if I have a mana rock and 2 lands in my hand I will definitely turn-4 Armageddon as a value play. I probably just 12-for-1ed (or more) the table. If they want me, come and get me. I know enough to pack a ton of answers and sweepers in my deck. Anyhow, my point is that if you limit yourself strategically, it's just poor play. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of optimization. If you want to purposely limit yourself with rules not included in the game itself, it's just scrubdom. Also, I'm soooo glad that I don't play at your store.
My thoughts exactly. With it being Multiplayer this means I need to keep my advantage typically at any cost. And typically with my playgroup I don't nuke it until I have Sun titan or life from the loam in my hand but I often wait until at least turn 6. With my playgroup I have explained it several times and they seem to understand that I don't like battlecrusier magic just like they don't like MLD. Magic is wanting to win typically and my group has come to that understanding. We play it like a resource management game rather than the Timmy game that a lot of stores seem to like it. That's not to say that we don't enjoy the smashface with big creatures and spells at times but we prefer to keep things unpredictable thus we have come to terms with unexpected things will happen and we may spike it up for a game or two but we have an agreement that if someone does something we don't like you must adjust rather than whine and focus them for it in a later game.
My Saffi deck
Yeah I get it we are all noobs with bad decks, sure whatever, but we aren't winning a tournament we are just trying to have fun. The post MLD game state is just not a fun game state.
I know the ramp into exsanguinate or TnN or whatever late game power card is also annoying if it happens enough times if you can do it fast, constantly and can easily get past our interaction, you manage to survive after we start archenemying you after you have won three games in a row etc. then your deck is not right for our meta and you should build a new one or find people that will play against that kind of deck
So MLD is not ok if the people you are playing against aren't ok with it, if their decks aren't built to deal with and if you aren't prepared to be run out of town for doing it.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
I really really feel like LD is a cheap way to win. I'd much rather someone go infinite and win in one turn than have to play out ten to fifteen gruesome turns where only one player can play. That's not the nature of what's supposed to be a fun game mode.
I hate Daretti so much.
GBRJundGBR
URWJeskai NahiriURW
My Legacy Deck:
URBGrixis DelverURB
My EDH Decks:
GJarad, Golgari Lich LordB
GRhys, The RedeemedW
RWArchangel AvacynRW
UWDragonlord OjutaiUW