Terrors + Cantrips + Counters is pretty much my brother's Sygg deck in a nutshell, so I've seen quite a few good pieces of single target removal.
Vendetta: 1-Mana and nulls regeneration, and the life payment is far less impactful at 40 than it is at 20. Snuff Out: Nearly always a strictly better Vendetta, and sometimes you can get away with just paying the mana instead. Tragic Slip: If it can target the creature, it's almost guaranteed to kill it. With all the combat, removal, and sac outlets around, you almost always have morbid. Slaughter Pact: 2B Isn't the worst to pay, especially if it lets you tap out the turn prior and still have played it. Shriekmaw: Terror on a stick is useful, especially when the stick in question has evasion and multiple modes.
As we all know, black loves to kill stuff. What are some of your favourite black removals for EDH and why?
To give a greater focus to the question, I'm building a monoblack deck and needs to narrow down my list of targeted and mass removals.
Is this going to be a reanimator deck, or a spell deck? My choices would be drastically different between a Chainer deck and a Toshiro deck.
In Chainer, everything is on a body. It doesn't get any better than Fleshbag Marauder and Kagemaro, First to Suffer. Check out the list in my sig for some good creature based removal.
I am a big fan of Grave Pact and Dark Impostor.
Grave Pact lets you manipulate a lot of situations based on how you set your board and Dark Impostor lets you respond to large threats and is particularly powerful when played just after a wipe.
I am a big fan of Grave Pact and Dark Impostor.
Grave Pact lets you manipulate a lot of situations based on how you set your board and Dark Impostor lets you respond to large threats and is particularly powerful when played just after a wipe.
In terms of Gravepact, Dictate of Erebos has flash for 1 more, making it an especially nasty surprise. It's also easier to manage in non-mono decks (though that shouldn't be an issue for you).
Even in mono black, I strive to keep my spells either as low costed as possible, or unconditional. One of the two.
Single target: Hero's Downfall: Although I try to keep it 2CMC or less, it's ability to hit anything and planeswalkers makes it hard to ignore. Dismember: Kills most and can cost 1 colorless if need be. Tragic Slip: Easy enough to get morbid. Snuff Out: Free is good. Vendetta: The life lost isn't really an issue. Slaughter Pact: 2B isn't terrible for a doomblade, considering you can always cast it. Ashes to Ashes: It's 3CMC again, but EXILES two targets. it's nonartifact which is normally a bit better than nonblack as well. It sucks you have to have two targets, but hey. The lifeloss doesn't really matter in black. Sever the Bloodline: Saved me more than once. Unconditional exile for 3B and stops tokens and clone shenanigans. Flashback only adds value. Shame it's a sorcery. Murder: If you're trying to keep your removal as unconditional as possible, this is still a good option. Sudden Death: Because sometimes you absolutely, positively, need that thing dead, no exceptions. Cabal Pit: Very underestimated and often forgotten. Extinction: Untargeted spot removal.
Board clears: Damnation: Arguably the best. Toxic Deluge: Great value, controllable to situation. Doesn't cripple surviving creatures like BSZ Black Sun's Zenith: Self recurrable, controllable to situation. Leaves a mark on bigger creatures that lived. Kagemaro, First to Suffer: Recurrable body, instant speed, but weak in presence of hand destruction.
I am a big fan of Grave Pact and Dark Impostor.
Grave Pact lets you manipulate a lot of situations based on how you set your board and Dark Impostor lets you respond to large threats and is particularly powerful when played just after a wipe.
In terms of Gravepact, Dictate of Erebos has flash for 1 more, making it an especially nasty surprise. It's also easier to manage in non-mono decks (though that shouldn't be an issue for you).
I have not had a chance to test Dictate of Erebos yet, but I do expect it to be quite powerful. Butcher of Malakir is pretty expensive but being a creature can be an advantage sometimes. I tend not to play him because 5BB can get a lot of other good effects.
Profane Command is removal that tends to be forgotten about. You remove a creature or a weak player while reanimating something.
A few people have mentioned Go For the Throat but I personally think Victim of Night is even better when it comes to spot removal. I can't say I've seen more than one vampire or werewolf in EDH, and only a handful of zombies.
A few people have mentioned Go For the Throat but I personally think Victim of Night is even better when it comes to spot removal. I can't see I've seen more than one vampire or werewolf in EDH, and only a handful of zombies.
There are enough people with artifact decks or relevant tribal decks (especially zombie tribal), and several vampires and zombies that I often do want to be rid of, that I've started simply going for 3-mana on my "basic" black removal with Murder and hero's Downfall.
As we all know, black loves to kill stuff. What are some of your favourite black removals for EDH and why?
To give a greater focus to the question, I'm building a monoblack deck and needs to narrow down my list of targeted and mass removals.
Is this going to be a reanimator deck, or a spell deck? My choices would be drastically different between a Chainer deck and a Toshiro deck.
In Chainer, everything is on a body. It doesn't get any better than Fleshbag Marauder and Kagemaro, First to Suffer. Check out the list in my sig for some good creature based removal.
It's a Chainer deck. I have the standard removal-on-legs package but I'm looking at spells just in case my GY gets removed or I need to remove at instant speeds or some dude got a torpor orb out etc.
In my Erebos build, I've worked for a few years on it (prior to erebos becoming general) to get the removal suite right. Below is a pretty good balance for me:
When taking into account the neverending spot removal versus mass removal debate, there are essentially two things I look for in Spot Removal: 1) Instant Speed, preferably with mana cost 1 or less, and 2) ability to kill what mass removal won't, e.g. indestructible, regenerating, etc. So, there's a short set of cards that I will run in non-White, non-Blue and I have never needed or wanted to play any other candidates. In order of strength:
A few appropriate candidates picked from among the above should be good enough for just about everywhere. Along with Maze of Ith and things of that nature, their role is to deter or temporarily stop that guy who's learned how to voltron up a dude with haste and swing for the fences. If you have a Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon or The Mimeoplasm copying a Black creature in your area, obviously take out the ones with the non-Black clause. And Zurgo Helmsmasher obviously gets treated the same way.
Otherwise, if you have some sort of counterspell slinging opponent like Rafiq, Zur, Thada Adel, etc, then you will want to think about Sudden Death, Sudden Spoiling and so on. Narset is also going around, and Black mages are remembering their Edicts and Withering Boon. It's just hard to hold up mana, and so I wouldn't run these 2-3 cc cards unless you really need them.
The key is to use spot removal sparingly. There should only come around 1 or 2 situations where you need to use it in a game. If it's just because you are behind on board, then of course you use it rather than dying if that's your only answer, but mass removal is what you want to be using to control the pace of the game. If you can't slow it down, maybe someone else will. That's also why Instant speed is, in my opinion, the only spot removal worth running too, because it lets the other players act and attacks be declared without you having to take the onus on yourself to do something.
A favorite of mine, which was relatively unknown until Commander 2014, is Dregs of Sorrow. It's a late game bomb that can refuel your hand, and allows your to be selective.
A favorite of mine, which was relatively unknown until Commander 2014, is Dregs of Sorrow. It's a late game bomb that can refuels your hand, and allows your to be selective.
I don't think Dregs was so much forgotten, but rather, it's pretty much been outclassed by Overwhelming Forces and Decree of Pain, cards which, while not selective, generate much more value for less mana. I mean, Decree is eight mana, and you can't get any value out of Dregs unless you pay six mana to start.
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"When does a man die? When he is hit by a bullet? No! When he suffers a disease? No! When he ate a soup made out of a poisonous mushroom? No! A man dies when he is forgotten!" Currently Piloting: EDH BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer) WBRKaalia of The Vast URGRiku of Two Reflections WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius UBRamirez DePietro GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
A favorite of mine, which was relatively unknown until Commander 2014, is Dregs of Sorrow. It's a late game bomb that can refuels your hand, and allows your to be selective.
I don't think Dregs was so much forgotten, but rather, it's pretty much been outclassed by Overwhelming Forces and Decree of Pain, cards which, while not selective, generate much more value for less mana. I mean, Decree is eight mana, and you can't get any value out of Dregs unless you pay six mana to start.
Good old B4X, but yeah, I agree with your assessment.
At 8 mana, you get so much more value with Decree and at 9 mana, you might as well go with plague wind.
A couple more old skool options that have not been mentioned:
Oubliette -> bonus devotion, a bit less good for generals, but still exiles them Cannibalize -> a recent cut for me, but can be pretty strong for the cost ritual of the machine -> the non-black clause hurts this a lot, but great to have a way of stealing problematic generals in black when you can tutor for it Shade's Form -> a bit more roundabout way of stealing a creature that needs an additional kill spell, but not colour limited and doubles as a decent pump spell for your general
Also I like the new unstable obelisk for mono-black, ramp that doubles as much needed artifact/enchantment removal but can hit anything.
My favorites, that have already been mentioned are:
... ritual of the machine -> the non-black clause hurts this a lot, but great to have a way of stealing problematic generals in black when you can tutor for it
...
To give a greater focus to the question, I'm building a monoblack deck and needs to narrow down my list of targeted and mass removals.
Shriekmaw - I have evoked it and reanimated it in the same turn many times.
Murderous Cut - Black Path to Exile, almost.
Go for the Throat - hits most things
Dismember - can be cast for 1, and it kills indestructible dudes
Avatar of Woe / Royal Assassin - reusable removal is very good
Mass removal... Black Sun's Zenith, Toxic Deluge and Mutilate are the best in my opinion. Kill everything (almost).
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers
Vendetta: 1-Mana and nulls regeneration, and the life payment is far less impactful at 40 than it is at 20.
Snuff Out: Nearly always a strictly better Vendetta, and sometimes you can get away with just paying the mana instead.
Tragic Slip: If it can target the creature, it's almost guaranteed to kill it. With all the combat, removal, and sac outlets around, you almost always have morbid.
Slaughter Pact: 2B Isn't the worst to pay, especially if it lets you tap out the turn prior and still have played it.
Shriekmaw: Terror on a stick is useful, especially when the stick in question has evasion and multiple modes.
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks
Is this going to be a reanimator deck, or a spell deck? My choices would be drastically different between a Chainer deck and a Toshiro deck.
In Chainer, everything is on a body. It doesn't get any better than Fleshbag Marauder and Kagemaro, First to Suffer. Check out the list in my sig for some good creature based removal.
If I were looking at spells, I like Tragic Slip, Murder, the planeswalker+ murder, Go for the Throat, the strive exile thing for 4, the new Com14 double doomblade, Sudden Death, Dismember and Mutilate. And Decree of Pain.
Snuff out and Slaughter pact have been mentioned, but don't get nearly enough love.
If you run artifact recursion, Executioner's Capsule is great.
Sudden Spoiling isn't technically removal... but it can get the job done, and is so useful in so many other ways.
If you want a bit more damning of spells, Pox, Smallpox, Undercity Plague, and Death cloud have a bad rap, but are excruciatingly effective.
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
Grave Pact lets you manipulate a lot of situations based on how you set your board and Dark Impostor lets you respond to large threats and is particularly powerful when played just after a wipe.
In terms of Gravepact, Dictate of Erebos has flash for 1 more, making it an especially nasty surprise. It's also easier to manage in non-mono decks (though that shouldn't be an issue for you).
Retired EDH - Tibor and Lumia | [PR]Nemata |Ramirez dePietro | [C]Edric | Riku | Jenara | Lazav | Heliod | Daxos | Roon | Kozilek
As for mass removal, Death Cloud is most likely my favorite magic card of all time.
Modern: Kiki ChordWBRG
TokensWB
EDH: Kuon, Ogre AscendantBBB
#FreeContractfromBelow
Single target:
Hero's Downfall: Although I try to keep it 2CMC or less, it's ability to hit anything and planeswalkers makes it hard to ignore.
Dismember: Kills most and can cost 1 colorless if need be.
Tragic Slip: Easy enough to get morbid.
Snuff Out: Free is good.
Vendetta: The life lost isn't really an issue.
Slaughter Pact: 2B isn't terrible for a doomblade, considering you can always cast it.
Ashes to Ashes: It's 3CMC again, but EXILES two targets. it's nonartifact which is normally a bit better than nonblack as well. It sucks you have to have two targets, but hey. The lifeloss doesn't really matter in black.
Sever the Bloodline: Saved me more than once. Unconditional exile for 3B and stops tokens and clone shenanigans. Flashback only adds value. Shame it's a sorcery.
Murder: If you're trying to keep your removal as unconditional as possible, this is still a good option.
Sudden Death: Because sometimes you absolutely, positively, need that thing dead, no exceptions.
Cabal Pit: Very underestimated and often forgotten.
Extinction: Untargeted spot removal.
Sacrifice:
Consuming Vapors: Useful for life gain, especially with massive creatures like Consuming Abberation. The rebound often goes forgotten as well.
Tribute to Hunger: Sometimes you need instant vapors.
Innocent Blood: 1Mana everyone sacs.
Fleshbag Marauder: Needs no introduction. Each other player sacs basically.
Barter in Blood: All sac 2.
Board clears:
Damnation: Arguably the best.
Toxic Deluge: Great value, controllable to situation. Doesn't cripple surviving creatures like BSZ
Black Sun's Zenith: Self recurrable, controllable to situation. Leaves a mark on bigger creatures that lived.
Kagemaro, First to Suffer: Recurrable body, instant speed, but weak in presence of hand destruction.
UBRSedris, the Necromancer KingUBR
Or any of the cantripy kill cards, like annihilate.
I have not had a chance to test Dictate of Erebos yet, but I do expect it to be quite powerful. Butcher of Malakir is pretty expensive but being a creature can be an advantage sometimes. I tend not to play him because 5BB can get a lot of other good effects.
Profane Command is removal that tends to be forgotten about. You remove a creature or a weak player while reanimating something.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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It's a Chainer deck. I have the standard removal-on-legs package but I'm looking at spells just in case my GY gets removed or I need to remove at instant speeds or some dude got a torpor orb out etc.
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Don't forget Syphon Flesh!
Enchantments:
Spot Removal:
Sweepers:
1) Dismember
2) Tragic Slip
3) Snuff Out
4) Vendetta
5) Slaughter Pact
6) Ghastly Demise
7) Diabolic Edict
8) Geth's Verdict
A few appropriate candidates picked from among the above should be good enough for just about everywhere. Along with Maze of Ith and things of that nature, their role is to deter or temporarily stop that guy who's learned how to voltron up a dude with haste and swing for the fences. If you have a Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon or The Mimeoplasm copying a Black creature in your area, obviously take out the ones with the non-Black clause. And Zurgo Helmsmasher obviously gets treated the same way.
Otherwise, if you have some sort of counterspell slinging opponent like Rafiq, Zur, Thada Adel, etc, then you will want to think about Sudden Death, Sudden Spoiling and so on. Narset is also going around, and Black mages are remembering their Edicts and Withering Boon. It's just hard to hold up mana, and so I wouldn't run these 2-3 cc cards unless you really need them.
The key is to use spot removal sparingly. There should only come around 1 or 2 situations where you need to use it in a game. If it's just because you are behind on board, then of course you use it rather than dying if that's your only answer, but mass removal is what you want to be using to control the pace of the game. If you can't slow it down, maybe someone else will. That's also why Instant speed is, in my opinion, the only spot removal worth running too, because it lets the other players act and attacks be declared without you having to take the onus on yourself to do something.
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I have a deep love for Hellfire, and Damnation for mass destruction.
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Follow me on Twitter: @generalspeak
Currently Piloting:
EDH
BGGlissa, The Traitor - Recursion (Primer)
WBRKaalia of The Vast
URGRiku of Two Reflections
WUBSydri, Galvanic Genius
UBRamirez DePietro
GWKrond, The Dawn-Clad
GWUDerevi, Empyrial Tactician
RGOmnath, Locus of Rage
Modern
UG Infect
Good old B4X, but yeah, I agree with your assessment.
At 8 mana, you get so much more value with Decree and at 9 mana, you might as well go with plague wind.
Oubliette -> bonus devotion, a bit less good for generals, but still exiles them
Cannibalize -> a recent cut for me, but can be pretty strong for the cost
ritual of the machine -> the non-black clause hurts this a lot, but great to have a way of stealing problematic generals in black when you can tutor for it
Shade's Form -> a bit more roundabout way of stealing a creature that needs an additional kill spell, but not colour limited and doubles as a decent pump spell for your general
Also I like the new unstable obelisk for mono-black, ramp that doubles as much needed artifact/enchantment removal but can hit anything.
My favorites, that have already been mentioned are:
snuff out
ashes to ashes
silence the believers
fleshbag marauder
Innocent blood
hellfire
toxic deluge
oblivion stone
UGUPrime Speaker Seamonster RampUGU
WUGDerevi Does NothingWUG
RRRFeldon's Lovely LadiesRRR
Isn't Helm of Possession a better option for theft?