This question is for multiplayer Commander players.
I have Knowledge Exploitation. Assuming I am hard casting this for 7 mana (i.e. I have no other alternative means of casting or playing this for less mana or for free), is there any instant or sorcery that costs 6 mana or more that might be worth stealing from an opponent's deck? To me, it feels "inefficient" to cast this to steal a lower CMC instant or sorcery spell. For example, if I wanted to steal a removal spell, I might be better off putting a removal spell in my Commander's color identity into my deck instead of Knowledge Exploitation.
Sometimes you really need that removal spell. Spending 7 for a Wrath of God or even Path to Exile is more efficient than dying.
If you always use it to get removal, then sure, replace it with removal. But if you're using it for Wrath effects sometimes, spot removal sometimes, and other times casting something like Insurrection, then the versatility may be worth spending the extra mana.
I used to play this in a casual version of my Edric deck (since he is a rogue). Really powerful, for 4 mana you get everything.
I disagree with you when you say that it is inefficient to cast a 1-5 cmc spell with this. Demonic Tutor makes you cast any card from your deck but you end up paying 2 more and that's worth it because you can get any card. It's a little bit the same with this, you get the versatility of playing cards outside your colors and whatever you want. That can be a game ender or just something to stay alive a few more turns. You get to see your opponent's library too (useful if they have Bribery, you can then look at the creatures too).
It's a really fun card but it's definitely better at 4 mana.
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
It's a lot to pay for that ability without being able to Prowl it. How well do you know your group's deck? Insurrection, an Ultimatum, a premium wrath, or even Bribery work.
You don't always want a removal spell. Options are good. That's why Praetor's Grasp is one of my favorite cards--I never have to pack Sorin because my opponents have one for me.
I think this is exactly the type of card you play more for the novelty/variety than for power. You are rarely going to get a spell bigger than the seven mana you spend for this (assuming you can't consistently trigger the Prowl), so the real reason to play it is the fun of picking through an opponent's stuff and the fact that it will have a different effect (almost) every time you cast it.
Also, it's good to be able to punish your opponents for running broken spells in their deck.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
To me, it feels "inefficient" to cast this to steal a lower CMC instant or sorcery spell.
You're looking at it wrong. You're not casting an instant/sorcery for 7; you're tutoring for an instant or sorcery then casting it for 7, potentially outside your color identity, and without having to prepare for needing that particular spell beforehand. It's like asking "Why run Cunning Wish instead of using that slot for my wish target?" You're giving yourself flexibility.
You don't doubt the effectiveness of Bribery, do you? Why doubt the instant/sorcery version of the same?
(FWIW, though, I strongly recommend having either a critical mass of Rogues, or a commander who is a Rogue. That prowl discount makes a big difference.)
Storm Herd and Decree of Pain are two that haven't been mentioned yet that get some amount of play. I recall a game where I played a few ramp spells into this, and got to use someone else's Herd on turn five, which caught the table off guard. Anecdotal evidence, of course, but this card enables some fun plays for sure.
I do agree that it's more like a tutor + free spell rolled into one. Just beware of your opponent being able to fish that spell out of their grave. A self-exiling spell (like Time Spiral or Temporal Mastery) can be a good target for this reason.
There are plenty of spells that I'd gladly pay a couple more mana for. Bribery, for example.
I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention the "infinite" combo with Eye of the Storm.
It's a lot to pay for that ability without being able to Prowl it. How well do you know your group's deck? Insurrection, an Ultimatum, a premium wrath, or even Bribery work.
You don't always want a removal spell. Options are good. That's why Praetor's Grasp is one of my favorite cards--I never have to pack Sorin because my opponents have one for me.
I think this is exactly the type of card you play more for the novelty/variety than for power. You are rarely going to get a spell bigger than the seven mana you spend for this (assuming you can't consistently trigger the Prowl), so the real reason to play it is the fun of picking through an opponent's stuff and the fact that it will have a different effect (almost) every time you cast it.
Also, it's good to be able to punish your opponents for running broken spells in their deck.
My group is casual, mostly family and friends. Their decks are either precons or "junk" decks, for the most part, cobbled together from spare cards. Ironically, the only deck in this group worth stealing from is another "steal and copy" deck that has Bribery, Acquire, and Insurrection that I helped make.
Knowledge Exploitation is in my semi-casual deck that mostly does stealing and copying, but otherwise has no rogue creatures in it. I'm mostly playing it as a novelty, but since I usually steal junk spells, I was wondering what I could potentially steal if the opponents' decks were more competitive.
This card is great. I use it in many decks and I have never paid the prowl cost. It is a common card in my blue decks even at 7 mana because of the utility. I'm not sure this was mentioned, but it allows you to play the most powerful spelles in your opponent's deck that are OUTSIDE your color identity. That is reason enough for me. You can play a BUG deck and still nab that Cruel Ultimatum or austere command.
Don't forget to tutor your opponents deck cost 3 in black: Praetor's Grasp, which isn't the best, but to not have to pay the mana cost easily makes it the better card, even if you have to pay more up front. Even if you take a loss in mana and get a Bribery, or a Chaos Warp or Vindicate, its still solid because you got what you needed when you needed it, and you got to tutor for it, so its worth the cost all day in my book. Plus if you don't see a spell you like in a blue players deck (or a creature) just grab the Bribery and target a different player.
This chain of events has happened more than once in my play group (usually by one particular player):
I have always called it my 7 mana Austere Command in blue. I am never disappointed to have Austere Command so paying one more mana for it in blue still seems just fine.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
My group is casual, mostly family and friends. Their decks are either precons or "junk" decks, for the most part, cobbled together from spare cards. Ironically, the only deck in this group worth stealing from is another "steal and copy" deck that has Bribery, Acquire, and Insurrection that I helped make.
Even the 15 precons have some pretty blowout spells in them.
My group is casual, mostly family and friends. Their decks are either precons or "junk" decks, for the most part, cobbled together from spare cards. Ironically, the only deck in this group worth stealing from is another "steal and copy" deck that has Bribery, Acquire, and Insurrection that I helped make.
Even the 15 precons have some pretty blowout spells in them.
I have always called it my 7 mana Austere Command in blue. I am never disappointed to have Austere Command so paying one more mana for it in blue still seems just fine.
Well, I had an interesting game yesterday. I had to use Knowledge Exploitation to steal Decree of Annihilation to reset the board to save me from losing the next turn. It took a while after that reset, but I won the game.
so when you get to play a spell this way, even with something like spelltwine, you don't have to pay the kicker? OR you're saying you have the option?
Any effect that lets you cast a spell allows you to use that spell's "on-cast" abilities. For example, you can use Sunforger to cast Orim's Chant and pay the kicker, because you cast the spell. The same cannot be said about a copied spell, because it wasn't cast.
I'm glad you posted this. given the influx of Narset, Enlightened Master decks, I'd say this card is worth running. Also, the number of ridiculously expensive but solid sorceries as finishers at the top of the curve in green and black decks seems to increasing in my play group.
so when you get to play a spell this way, even with something like spelltwine, you don't have to pay the kicker? OR you're saying you have the option?
Any effect that lets you cast a spell allows you to use that spell's "on-cast" abilities. For example, you can use Sunforger to cast Orim's Chant and pay the kicker, because you cast the spell. The same cannot be said about a copied spell, because it wasn't cast.
More specifically, any time you cast a spell, you use either the mana cost or exactly one available alternate cost, you may pay any optional additional costs, and you must pay any mandatory additional costs.
Knowledge Exploitation gives you permission to cast a spell using the alternate cost of "nothing". Kicker is an optional additional cost, which you may pay (but KE won't do it for you).
I have Knowledge Exploitation. Assuming I am hard casting this for 7 mana (i.e. I have no other alternative means of casting or playing this for less mana or for free), is there any instant or sorcery that costs 6 mana or more that might be worth stealing from an opponent's deck? To me, it feels "inefficient" to cast this to steal a lower CMC instant or sorcery spell. For example, if I wanted to steal a removal spell, I might be better off putting a removal spell in my Commander's color identity into my deck instead of Knowledge Exploitation.
Thank you for your answers.
If you always use it to get removal, then sure, replace it with removal. But if you're using it for Wrath effects sometimes, spot removal sometimes, and other times casting something like Insurrection, then the versatility may be worth spending the extra mana.
I disagree with you when you say that it is inefficient to cast a 1-5 cmc spell with this. Demonic Tutor makes you cast any card from your deck but you end up paying 2 more and that's worth it because you can get any card. It's a little bit the same with this, you get the versatility of playing cards outside your colors and whatever you want. That can be a game ender or just something to stay alive a few more turns. You get to see your opponent's library too (useful if they have Bribery, you can then look at the creatures too).
It's a really fun card but it's definitely better at 4 mana.
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Pauper decks:
My own rules when building a Commander deck:
1) Underrated general that I can build around but the deck must work without him/her too.
2) Every card must be legal in both banlists.
3) No infinite combo that could win (and ruin) instantly a multiplayer game.
4) Synergy at all costs; stay on theme, avoid goodstuff.
You don't always want a removal spell. Options are good. That's why Praetor's Grasp is one of my favorite cards--I never have to pack Sorin because my opponents have one for me.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Also, it's good to be able to punish your opponents for running broken spells in their deck.
Need I go on?
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Also, many players run some really blowout spells, like Time Stretch or Insurrection.
You don't doubt the effectiveness of Bribery, do you? Why doubt the instant/sorcery version of the same?
(FWIW, though, I strongly recommend having either a critical mass of Rogues, or a commander who is a Rogue. That prowl discount makes a big difference.)
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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I do agree that it's more like a tutor + free spell rolled into one. Just beware of your opponent being able to fish that spell out of their grave. A self-exiling spell (like Time Spiral or Temporal Mastery) can be a good target for this reason.
There are plenty of spells that I'd gladly pay a couple more mana for. Bribery, for example.
I'd also be remiss if I didn't mention the "infinite" combo with Eye of the Storm.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
My group is casual, mostly family and friends. Their decks are either precons or "junk" decks, for the most part, cobbled together from spare cards. Ironically, the only deck in this group worth stealing from is another "steal and copy" deck that has Bribery, Acquire, and Insurrection that I helped make.
Knowledge Exploitation is in my semi-casual deck that mostly does stealing and copying, but otherwise has no rogue creatures in it. I'm mostly playing it as a novelty, but since I usually steal junk spells, I was wondering what I could potentially steal if the opponents' decks were more competitive.
But, thanks for card suggestions, everybody!
Don't forget to tutor your opponents deck cost 3 in black: Praetor's Grasp, which isn't the best, but to not have to pay the mana cost easily makes it the better card, even if you have to pay more up front. Even if you take a loss in mana and get a Bribery, or a Chaos Warp or Vindicate, its still solid because you got what you needed when you needed it, and you got to tutor for it, so its worth the cost all day in my book. Plus if you don't see a spell you like in a blue players deck (or a creature) just grab the Bribery and target a different player.
This chain of events has happened more than once in my play group (usually by one particular player):
Cast Knowledge Exploitation cast your (my) Knowledge Exploitation, cast your (my) Bribery, grab your (mine, if present) Chancellor of the Spires (or Diluvian Primordial) copy your (my) Bribery, grab all your (my) clones to make that many Bribery copies, grab your (my) Consecrated Sphinx. Pass Turn
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Yes. I'd be quite alright paying seven to cast an AEther Snap or a Necromantic Selection from someone else's deck.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
Came here to say this.
Playtesting | Karador, Ghost Chieftain | Narset, Enlightened Master | Ephara, God of the Polis
Established | Gahiji, Honored One | Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker | Opal-Eye, Konda's Yojimbo | Rubinia Soulsinger
Retired | Medomai the Ageless | Diaochan, Artful Beauty
Those are some pretty nice spells to steal. I will keep my Knowledge Exploitation in my deck.
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so when you get to play a spell this way, even with something like spelltwine, you don't have to pay the kicker? OR you're saying you have the option?
Any effect that lets you cast a spell allows you to use that spell's "on-cast" abilities. For example, you can use Sunforger to cast Orim's Chant and pay the kicker, because you cast the spell. The same cannot be said about a copied spell, because it wasn't cast.
Sydri's Magical Castle WUB
Chainer, Dementia Master: "Bring out your dead!" BBB
Riku Because Copying Decimate URG
Xira Arien, Jund StaxBRG
The Sylvan-Primordial-PlasmBUG
Trostani ComboGW
Vizkopa Guildmage - Peasant VariantBW
Knowledge Exploitation gives you permission to cast a spell using the alternate cost of "nothing". Kicker is an optional additional cost, which you may pay (but KE won't do it for you).
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