Honestly, most of the cards that are in the list aren't played much at all currently. I don't really feel like there would be some sort of a large concern about them being played if the rules changed. If I have a bant deck, how much do I really care if I can play Vexing Shusher?????? Most of these cards would be build dependent or meta dependent cards to be honest.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
Flame Javelin seems like it has a red colour identity rather than a red-slash-colourless one despite being playable in other decks in every other format. If hybrid mana really is designed to make cards that could be printed in both colours I feel like some cards miss the mark. Din of the Fireherd for example, doesn't seem very mono-colored to me, but I might be wrong.
Anyway, I don't really care and I'd be willing to try it out.
I think you guys are forgetting something here as well. The rules serve the players not confine them. If the players feel that something should change, it is up to the RC to change the rules to reflect it. Yes the current rules do not allow for hybrid mana but saying that the world would fall apart if it were to happen seems a little excessive. The rules serve the players and it happens to have been an early rule that was established which disalows playing them. It could just as easily have had a rule that allowed them but that is not how the early rules were established.
The format has grown and had time to mature. It should be a reasonable manner to examine the rules and make sure that they are serving the players and the format to still be in effect. I think it is a bit extreme to yell and holler that it is against the spirit of the format when the rules reflect whatever the RC and playerbase wants them to reflect.
I think it would be wrong to assume that a majority of the players want to change the ruling on hybrid cards, however I agree that it is worth discussing.
I said earlier that I don't think hybrid cards themselves would cause too many problems for the format, I just personally think they make more sense as is and don't think changing the rules to allow hybrid cards is necessary.
I do however, think that phyrexian mana cards would be very problematic for reasons beaten completely to death.
@ISB: The impact really would be minimal for the most part (for hybrid cards at least, some Phyrexian spells could probably become as ubiquitous as Solemn Simulacrum). For me, it really just becomes a matter of rules and aesthetics oddities that would feel off to me in run-of-the-mill gameplay. I don't want to see Figure of Destiny staring back at me in my GW deck, or having it held off by an Akroma's Memorial when all my other creatures have no issue swinging through.
These are little interactions that won't occur 98% of the time, but the few times they do, they'll irk me in the same inexplicable way that counters do compared to other removal, and those scenarios are just as often a result of Magic's rules as they are Commander's. That said, I'll still let someone play a card if they're dead set on it and it doesn't become stupid oppressive .
EDIT: Deathrite Shaman seems like he'd show up far more often than he does currently, now that I think about it, but he's one of Hybrids few exceptions...
Double-Edit: Need to stop thinking about cards without looking at them... (who am I kidding, I'll never stop that V_V ).
I agree with you that I don't want to assume anything one way or another. I actually suspect that the majority of users likely don't want a change to the rules but we should approach this sort of thing rationally. The RC can change the rules if the users have an overwhelming wish for it to change. Kokusho in my mind was one of those overwhelming request that did end up happening due to users requests.
I also agree that overall, its unlikely that hybrids would make much impact. It is far more likely that we would be looking at perhaps 2-3 at most that would possibly see some regular play if we made the change and many of them would be roleplayers in the right deck.
I also agree with you on the phyrexian stuff... I don't know if anyone is fighting for them though as I think most of us acknowledge that they would be bad for the format.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I'm sure there would be a way to word it so that you can run the card so long as it shares at least one color with your commander's color identity, and that you must be able to pay the mana for any abilities the card in question has.
Okay but hybrid cards are still both colors. Regardless of being able to be cast for just one of those colors, it is still both. The entire point in color identity is to restrict the deck to just the commanders colors. Why should a blue deck be able to cast a spell that is also green just because it is also blue. Once you stray from that there's no point in identity at all. Maro should stop trying to undermine this fundamental concept. Someone brought up how hybrids aren't a restriction in other formats, but otherfomats do hvcolor identity so it's a moot point.
That, is about all the more I see myself doing offhand if the rule would change. I personally play a lot of mono colored stuff so it actually matters a lot more to me due to the usual restrictions on what I can play. I see these cards which are intended to be able to play in the mono color that I like playing but I am restricted from playing them because of a rule in the format I don't agree with.
EDIT: Deathrite Shaman seems like he'd show up far more often than he does currently, now that I think about it, but he's one of Hybrids few exceptions...
He would still be green and black as his identity due to the abilities themselves having distinct both mana symbols and not hybird to activate. He would not have an exception based on a change that came from this.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
ISB, I play a lot of mono colored decks as well (if we're using that as a qualifier) and I like the rules how they are. Although I understand where you are coming from, I don't want to be able to run white or green spells in my deck just because I am able to pay for them. One of the main points is that other formats don't have color restrictions like EDH. The color identity restrictions in commander appeal to me and add diversity and flavor.
This has been a good discussion and I think we are at a point where we should agree to disagree.
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It's facinating how some people still struggle to understand really basic things... Hybrids = multicolor "gold" cards. Color-wise there's no difference between Divinity of Pride and Teysa, Orzhov Scion. Logic dictates that then you should allow both if you are for the hybrids, unless you add some jargon about being able to hard-cast spells into the rules...
You can understand the rule and still disagree with them.
Perhaps it's be be because I've only been playing for a couple of years, but I don't see the change as a major thing. It opens up a lot of options for mono colored decks, which would be nice. Of course, if it's something that would be majorly opposed by most EDH players (which MTGS is not), then that's that.
I dont really care about what MaRo thinks about the color identity rule in general, but he is absolutely right when it comes to extort.
That is not run-of-the-mill reminder text. It is fundamentally different than the trinisphere reminder text. It's an activated ability and an associated cost, printed right there on the card. It is not there to show an example or illustrate a hypothetical like trinisphere reminder text. I don't understand why people don't appreciate that.
Its fine as it is and it would be fine either way honestly. Being allowed to have anything in your deck would be okay if you kept the rule that you can only produce mana in your colors. I miss the days when you could put Bojuka Bog in any commander deck on MTGO.
I think you guys are forgetting something here as well. The rules serve the players not confine them. If the players feel that something should change, it is up to the RC to change the rules to reflect it. Yes the current rules do not allow for hybrid mana but saying that the world would fall apart if it were to happen seems a little excessive. The rules serve the players and it happens to have been an early rule that was established which disalows playing them. It could just as easily have had a rule that allowed them but that is not how the early rules were established.
The format has grown and had time to mature. It should be a reasonable manner to examine the rules and make sure that they are serving the players and the format to still be in effect. I think it is a bit extreme to yell and holler that it is against the spirit of the format when the rules reflect whatever the RC and playerbase wants them to reflect.
I think it would be wrong to assume that a majority of the players want to change the ruling on hybrid cards, however I agree that it is worth discussing.
I said earlier that I don't think hybrid cards themselves would cause too many problems for the format, I just personally think they make more sense as is and don't think changing the rules to allow hybrid cards is necessary.
I do however, think that phyrexian mana cards would be very problematic for reasons beaten completely to death.
And what are those reasons?
What in This list would be so problematic if every deck had access to it?
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
What in This list would be so problematic if every deck had access to it?
I believe we have polled it a few times and it generally is towards not changing the rules to allow hybrid spells. I dont know if phyrexian mana spells were figured into that poll though... I would have to dig offhand to find that old poll. We could also put up a new poll and test again to see how people think about it.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
The people who want to allow hybrids and other such "awkward" color-identified cards are looking at it from a mechanical standpoint when the rule in question seems to be made for reasons of flavor, not mechanics. The color restrictions are part of the flavor and appeal to the format (they were for me, at least). I don't think enough is gained by taking away an integral part of the identity of the format. Yes the format has grown and changed, but I'm not sure giving in to what the audience wants is necessarily a good thing. We occasionally complain, but we still play. I don't think anyone is leaving the format because of hybrid rules (except MaRo), so it's not something that needs to be addressed. If you start tearing down these walls, however, the things that make this format great start to whittle away. I don't think the sky will fall or anything like that, but for a format driven by flavor I should think redefining said flavor needs to come out of place bigger than "I want to run Kitchen Finks in my mono-white build, who's it hurting?"
This has been a good discussion and I think we are at a point where we should agree to disagree.
While this is true, it unfortunately won't happen. The people who want the change won't get it if the argument simply stops, so this discussion will continue to pop up over and over again with the same arguments being made until more hybrid or other similar corner-case cards are printed that change the discussion.
I personally think hybrids are definitely considered both colors no matter what the situation is (unless that situation involves Painter's Servant, I suppose). They're even multicolor-intended by design, since cards like Batwing Brume are just better if you have both colors and the only sets they've ever been printed in have been multicolor-themed sets. I'm not sure why Maro says that hybrid is intended for play with only one of its colors, then turns around and sees hybrid cards designed for multicolor uses and sets. I think, if he wanted to emphasize monocoloredness, there would be a few hybrid cards printed outside sets like Ravnica or even hybrid cards printed in the new mono-color Commander pre-cons.
Does someone really need to explain why giving ALL DECKS access to the best clone in the format would be a problem?
I believe the discussion of hybrid mana and phyrexian mana are a separate discussion in this case. The rules would have to be changed to allow hybrid spells at this time and while I dont have an idea of the wording that would allow one and not the other at this time I am sure it would be an option.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
there is a possibility that wizards (and mark rosewater) could do even more to force a rules change, either by printing more extort-like abilities or just strongarming the commander rules like they are doing with precon generals.
I'm not sure why the Phyrexian cards are even being viewed as hybrid cards. Seems to me they were for the most part clearly intended to be of a certain color, or you pay life. I think it would make things all kinds of awkward and maybe unbalanced if a mono-white deck, for example, could use all those Phyrexian cards.
The actual hybrid color cards of two colors, however, those are a different animal.
Perhaps the real thing to ask is, if this were allowed for both kinds of 'hybrid' cards in EDH, would we be giving colors that normally don't have much access to certain capabilities on the color pie too much access to pie-breaking effects?
He says that he told the design team to make it so that Extort could only be played in BW decks, then he goes on to say that Hybrid cards should be allowed in mono colored decks. According to him, even if Extort wasn't a keyword, you should still be able to use it in a mono black deck because it's hybrid.
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I suppose I should clarify a bit then;
What loop/Pod could a Mono-R deck make that wouldn't be the same exact thing in an R/G deck?
Anyway, I don't really care and I'd be willing to try it out.
I think it would be wrong to assume that a majority of the players want to change the ruling on hybrid cards, however I agree that it is worth discussing.
I said earlier that I don't think hybrid cards themselves would cause too many problems for the format, I just personally think they make more sense as is and don't think changing the rules to allow hybrid cards is necessary.
I do however, think that phyrexian mana cards would be very problematic for reasons beaten completely to death.
These are little interactions that won't occur 98% of the time, but the few times they do, they'll irk me in the same inexplicable way that counters do compared to other removal, and those scenarios are just as often a result of Magic's rules as they are Commander's. That said, I'll still let someone play a card if they're dead set on it and it doesn't become stupid oppressive .
EDIT: Deathrite Shaman seems like he'd show up far more often than he does currently, now that I think about it, but he's one of Hybrids few exceptions...
Double-Edit: Need to stop thinking about cards without looking at them... (who am I kidding, I'll never stop that V_V ).
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I also agree that overall, its unlikely that hybrids would make much impact. It is far more likely that we would be looking at perhaps 2-3 at most that would possibly see some regular play if we made the change and many of them would be roleplayers in the right deck.
I also agree with you on the phyrexian stuff... I don't know if anyone is fighting for them though as I think most of us acknowledge that they would be bad for the format.
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Of course, it would need to be worded better, but for example wording it so that I could run Vexing Shusher or Sapling of Colfenor but not Deathrite Shaman or Beseech the Queen in Sachi.
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Pit Fight in mono green. I used to have a Thrun, the Last Troll deck and I would have loved to have had access to it.
That, is about all the more I see myself doing offhand if the rule would change. I personally play a lot of mono colored stuff so it actually matters a lot more to me due to the usual restrictions on what I can play. I see these cards which are intended to be able to play in the mono color that I like playing but I am restricted from playing them because of a rule in the format I don't agree with.
He would still be green and black as his identity due to the abilities themselves having distinct both mana symbols and not hybird to activate. He would not have an exception based on a change that came from this.
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This has been a good discussion and I think we are at a point where we should agree to disagree.
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You can understand the rule and still disagree with them.
Perhaps it's be be because I've only been playing for a couple of years, but I don't see the change as a major thing. It opens up a lot of options for mono colored decks, which would be nice. Of course, if it's something that would be majorly opposed by most EDH players (which MTGS is not), then that's that.
Otherwise, it can't hurt to discuss the matter.
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That is not run-of-the-mill reminder text. It is fundamentally different than the trinisphere reminder text. It's an activated ability and an associated cost, printed right there on the card. It is not there to show an example or illustrate a hypothetical like trinisphere reminder text. I don't understand why people don't appreciate that.
UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
And what are those reasons?
What in This list would be so problematic if every deck had access to it?
I believe we have polled it a few times and it generally is towards not changing the rules to allow hybrid spells. I dont know if phyrexian mana spells were figured into that poll though... I would have to dig offhand to find that old poll. We could also put up a new poll and test again to see how people think about it.
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Does someone really need to explain why giving ALL DECKS access to the best clone in the format would be a problem?
I personally think hybrids are definitely considered both colors no matter what the situation is (unless that situation involves Painter's Servant, I suppose). They're even multicolor-intended by design, since cards like Batwing Brume are just better if you have both colors and the only sets they've ever been printed in have been multicolor-themed sets. I'm not sure why Maro says that hybrid is intended for play with only one of its colors, then turns around and sees hybrid cards designed for multicolor uses and sets. I think, if he wanted to emphasize monocoloredness, there would be a few hybrid cards printed outside sets like Ravnica or even hybrid cards printed in the new mono-color Commander pre-cons.
I believe the discussion of hybrid mana and phyrexian mana are a separate discussion in this case. The rules would have to be changed to allow hybrid spells at this time and while I dont have an idea of the wording that would allow one and not the other at this time I am sure it would be an option.
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UBRThe MindrazerRBU
UUUSpymaster of TrestGGG
GGGThe South TreeGGG
RRRHuman AscendantRRR
The actual hybrid color cards of two colors, however, those are a different animal.
Perhaps the real thing to ask is, if this were allowed for both kinds of 'hybrid' cards in EDH, would we be giving colors that normally don't have much access to certain capabilities on the color pie too much access to pie-breaking effects?
He says that he told the design team to make it so that Extort could only be played in BW decks, then he goes on to say that Hybrid cards should be allowed in mono colored decks. According to him, even if Extort wasn't a keyword, you should still be able to use it in a mono black deck because it's hybrid.
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU