MaRo's views on the color identity rulings in EDH aside for a moment, I can see why, (and personally agree with), people who argue Extort makes a card both black and white in color identity due to Extort being shorthand for a rule's text that explicitly states both a white and black mana symbol in said rules text. Crypt Ghast should not be allowed in a mono-black list.
The idea that hybrid cards however, should be allowed in any deck with the ability to hard cast them is an interesting concept. It makes you wonder what if the color identity restriction rule was removed altogether, but lands were still only able to produce mana of your commander's color color identity, or colorless.
What all would change in the format? A few hybrid cards are suddenly able to be played in a color they were designed to be able to cast in anyway? Is that so bad? You would still be unable to make use of cards like Volrath Stronghold in a nonblack list, even tho the rules would no longer restrict you from playing it.
Some additional food for thought. I see a few people bring up not wanting to see lists that are supposed to be mono-colored have assess to say, a dual colored hybrid creature because it somehow creates confusion when a mono green deck suddenly has a blue-green creature. To that I say, do you find it confusing when a nongreen list runs Acorn Catapult? Or any non-five color list running Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII?
I find it interesting that Mark Rosewater has this opinion, and yet in his podcast "Lessons Learned 4" (Starting near the 28 minute mark), he talks about how Hybrid cards are not just mono-color, and that was a big problem with his designs in Shadowmoor/Eventide. There is a mono-color aspect, but there's just as much multi-color aspect to them.
Some additional food for thought. I see a few people bring up not wanting to see lists that are supposed to be mono-colored have assess to say, a dual colored hybrid creature because it somehow creates confusion when a mono green deck suddenly has a blue-green creature. To that I say, do you find it confusing when a nongreen list runs Acorn Catapult? Or any non-five color list running Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII?
For me, yes. I tend to make my decklists even more restrictive than even the color identity might suggest. I have a mono-white equipment deck, and I cannot bring myself to include Living Weapons, because they make Black Tokens.
Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII I don't have as much of a problem with because if I'm playing it, I'm very blatantly picking the token in my color. The option makes it easier for me to swallow.
MaRo's views on the color identity rulings in EDH aside for a moment, I can see why, (and personally agree with), people who argue Extort makes a card both black and white in color identity due to Extort being shorthand for a rule's text that explicitly states both a white and black mana symbol in said rules text. Crypt Ghast should not be allowed in a mono-black list.
Agreed. Extort is an Orzhov mechanic and Wizards failed that flavor by not giving it a w/b color identity. I'll also put Blind Obedience into any white deck that can support it, because the card is that good. Which leads to...
The idea that hybrid cards however, should be allowed in any deck with the ability to hard cast them is an interesting concept. It makes you wonder what if the color identity restriction rule was removed altogether, but lands were still only able to produce mana of your commander's color color identity, or colorless.
What all would change in the format? A few hybrid cards are suddenly able to be played in a color they were designed to be able to cast in anyway? Is that so bad? You would still be unable to make use of cards like Volrath Stronghold in a nonblack list, even tho the rules would no longer restrict you from playing it.
Some additional food for thought. I see a few people bring up not wanting to see lists that are supposed to be mono-colored have assess to say, a dual colored hybrid creature because it somehow creates confusion when a mono green deck suddenly has a blue-green creature. To that I say, do you find it confusing when a nongreen list runs Acorn Catapult? Or any non-five color list running Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII?
We've already painted a picture for you. If color identity isn't a thing and the rules rely on not being able to produce mana outside the CI of your general, lots of things can happen. (By the way, did you intentionally only restrict lands, or did you also mean to include mana producing artifacts?) Common examples of homogenization include Birthing Pod, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Gitaxian Probe. Lesser examples include generals like Karador or Mimeoplasm, who don't care about casting and will simply reanimate.
This could easily have been solved by making the extort cost match the color of the card: B, W, or . It's not like it's unprecedented, even within that set. Look at overload cards, Electrickery is mono-red with a mono-red overload instead of something like overload costing .
The only thing that I really don't agree with is color symbols that have nothing to do with you playing and using the card. I recall this coming up once or twice in my memory, but the only example that comes to mind now is Quenchable Fire having a RU CI, and that card isn't exactly playable.
The only thing that I really don't agree with is color symbols that have nothing to do with you playing and using the card. I recall this coming up once or twice in my memory, but the only example that comes to mind now is Quenchable Fire having a RU CI, and that card isn't exactly playable.
Quotes like this are what is wrong with EDH players right now. Whining on and on about others, blaming others for the continuous collapse of the format, being unable to empathize with how other people want to play, making claims about a history of the format that they most likely weren't even playing.
Commander is for playing, not *****ing about.
i emphatize with them by letting them playing other formats. i emphatize with competitive players by letting them play legacy, modern, and whatever, instead of saying "wizard should cancel every format except EDH because it's just a waste of resources, EDH is the only right format!"
at the same time, they don't emphatize with me because they want to take away rules that make the format i play unique just for their personal desire (i want to run boros reckoner in white decks! boo-ooh!)
there is only one format with color identity... why take it away? it's a unique thing in magic, why the need to remove it and make EDH more similar to other formats? if you don't enjoy EDH deckbuilding, just play something else
Commander is for playing, not for stripping its rule and identity a little piece at time. it's already too similar to poor man vintage, please stop
PS: you don't know when i started playing commander, so don't judge things you don't know. i expected better from you jiv, you used to have class
No one is taking anything away from you. Victim complexes are pretty pathetic, even moreso when they have absolutely zero justification.
Telling someone to go play another format isn't empathizing with them. Empathizing would be to understand where they are coming from with their beliefs, even if you don't agree with them.
Telling someone to go play another format isn't empathizing with them. Empathizing would be to understand where they are coming from with their beliefs, even if you don't agree with them.
Empathy is hard. Judging is easy. That's why we see so much of the second and none of the first.
i emphatize with them by letting them playing other formats. i emphatize with competitive players by letting them play legacy, modern, and whatever, instead of saying "wizard should cancel every format except EDH because it's just a waste of resources, EDH is the only right format!"
at the same time, they don't emphatize with me because they want to take away rules that make the format i play unique just for their personal desire (i want to run boros reckoner in white decks! boo-ooh!)
there is only one format with color identity... why take it away? it's a unique thing in magic, why the need to remove it and make EDH more similar to other formats? if you don't enjoy EDH deckbuilding, just play something else
Commander is for playing, not for stripping its rule and identity a little piece at time. it's already too similar to poor man vintage, please stop
PS: you don't know when i started playing commander, so don't judge things you don't know. i expected better from you jiv, you used to have class
Isn't being set in your ways so stubbornly trying to protect YOUR own desires though?
Everyone wants what they believe is best for the format. The thing is, none of us are necessarily correct, even you. There's nothing wrong with trying to argue for a change that you believe is better, even if it is unlikely to be changed.
That doesn't mean they want to play another format. the fact that they're here obviously means they care to some degree.
Disagreeing with people like me is fine, but at least attempt to see where we're coming from, instead of saying, "Go play something else and leave me alone!" I could easily say something similar in regards to your unwillingness to consider a change, but that would make this discussion pointless, as you wouldn't get to have a debate with the other side of the argument, which is the point of this thread.
so...
"i like EDH the way it is (and it was made by other people, not by my own desires), that's why i'm playing it" it's equal to "i don't like EDH because i can't play boros reckoner in my white deck, or my phyrexian metamorph in my green deck, booh oooh, change the rules of the format to reduce its variety!" are the same.
i see where they are coming from, that's why i can't understand why they can't just use house rules for hybrids or change format. EDH is the only format eith color identity, if you don't like that, maybe you are more suited to other formats, or to "99 hundred card + a legendary" highlander.
it's like wanting to play water polo but hating swimming... just play another sport
You're seriously misguided. As one of the people arguing in favor of legalizing hybrid cards, I'm not doing it as some secret agenda to turn EDH into the other formats or strip it of its color identity. I refuse to play extort cards as is and probably won't play hybrid in many decks if it were allowed.
I love EDH, and I am always looking for ways to make it better, that's why I joined this conversation in the first place. If R&D or design believed and intended monocolored mages to cast hybrid spells from a flavor standpoint, I believe we should find a way to make it work. But we don't know that, so there's really no right or wrong answer at this point unless they come out and say something about the flavor intention. EDH is governed by greater laws than 60 card, which is wonderful. Those laws are the flavor, and we try to enforce the flavor through rules as best we can. Obviously, it can't be perfect. A monocolored mage isn't looking at a card and seeing white symbols on it, he is casting a spell in his colors because he wants to defeat his enemy. Maybe the rules should allow it, just like maybe the rules should disallow off-color fetches or City of Brass. Like I said, without an official stance from Wizards on flavor, we have no reason to change the rule. But if they did, we might have to seriously consider it.
The only thing that I really don't agree with is color symbols that have nothing to do with you playing and using the card. I recall this coming up once or twice in my memory, but the only example that comes to mind now is Quenchable Fire having a RU CI, and that card isn't exactly playable.
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Telling someone to go play another format isn't empathizing with them. Empathizing would be to understand where they are coming from with their beliefs, even if you don't agree with them.
Empathy is hard. Judging is easy. That's why we see so much of the second and none of the first.
I must say, after reading many of your posts I feel like you may not realize yourself as one of perpetrators. You are a strong willed an intelligent person, but your flexibility in viewing someones viewpoint form their own position feels lacking. It seems you tell, tell, tell... fight, fight, fight while forgetting about listening and reflecting.
I feel that if some of the effort of your posts were put into making the other person not feel like they are being attacked, you could be an extremely strong influencer. Instead, I think the impression people get of your posts is abrasive. Nothing you say after someone feels that will make much of an impact.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
EDH Decks:
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
The idea that hybrid cards however, should be allowed in any deck with the ability to hard cast them is an interesting concept. It makes you wonder what if the color identity restriction rule was removed altogether, but lands were still only able to produce mana of your commander's color color identity, or colorless.
What all would change in the format? A few hybrid cards are suddenly able to be played in a color they were designed to be able to cast in anyway? Is that so bad? You would still be unable to make use of cards like Volrath Stronghold in a nonblack list, even tho the rules would no longer restrict you from playing it.
Some additional food for thought. I see a few people bring up not wanting to see lists that are supposed to be mono-colored have assess to say, a dual colored hybrid creature because it somehow creates confusion when a mono green deck suddenly has a blue-green creature. To that I say, do you find it confusing when a nongreen list runs Acorn Catapult? Or any non-five color list running Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII?
For me, yes. I tend to make my decklists even more restrictive than even the color identity might suggest. I have a mono-white equipment deck, and I cannot bring myself to include Living Weapons, because they make Black Tokens.
Sarpadian Empires, Vol. VII I don't have as much of a problem with because if I'm playing it, I'm very blatantly picking the token in my color. The option makes it easier for me to swallow.
Agreed. Extort is an Orzhov mechanic and Wizards failed that flavor by not giving it a w/b color identity. I'll also put Blind Obedience into any white deck that can support it, because the card is that good. Which leads to...
We've already painted a picture for you. If color identity isn't a thing and the rules rely on not being able to produce mana outside the CI of your general, lots of things can happen. (By the way, did you intentionally only restrict lands, or did you also mean to include mana producing artifacts?) Common examples of homogenization include Birthing Pod, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Gitaxian Probe. Lesser examples include generals like Karador or Mimeoplasm, who don't care about casting and will simply reanimate.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
The only thing that I really don't agree with is color symbols that have nothing to do with you playing and using the card. I recall this coming up once or twice in my memory, but the only example that comes to mind now is Quenchable Fire having a RU CI, and that card isn't exactly playable.
There's also Thelon's Curse and Mtenda Lion.
No one is taking anything away from you. Victim complexes are pretty pathetic, even moreso when they have absolutely zero justification.
PS: I never had class when dealing with whiners.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Empathy is hard. Judging is easy. That's why we see so much of the second and none of the first.
When you're deeply invested in something it can be hard to understand where someone is coming from when their stance is opposed to yours.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
Follow me on Twitter! @cryogen_mtg
Everyone wants what they believe is best for the format. The thing is, none of us are necessarily correct, even you. There's nothing wrong with trying to argue for a change that you believe is better, even if it is unlikely to be changed.
That doesn't mean they want to play another format. the fact that they're here obviously means they care to some degree.
Disagreeing with people like me is fine, but at least attempt to see where we're coming from, instead of saying, "Go play something else and leave me alone!" I could easily say something similar in regards to your unwillingness to consider a change, but that would make this discussion pointless, as you wouldn't get to have a debate with the other side of the argument, which is the point of this thread.
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So that means I can play Pearl Shard in my Arcum deck then, right?
I love EDH, and I am always looking for ways to make it better, that's why I joined this conversation in the first place. If R&D or design believed and intended monocolored mages to cast hybrid spells from a flavor standpoint, I believe we should find a way to make it work. But we don't know that, so there's really no right or wrong answer at this point unless they come out and say something about the flavor intention. EDH is governed by greater laws than 60 card, which is wonderful. Those laws are the flavor, and we try to enforce the flavor through rules as best we can. Obviously, it can't be perfect. A monocolored mage isn't looking at a card and seeing white symbols on it, he is casting a spell in his colors because he wants to defeat his enemy. Maybe the rules should allow it, just like maybe the rules should disallow off-color fetches or City of Brass. Like I said, without an official stance from Wizards on flavor, we have no reason to change the rule. But if they did, we might have to seriously consider it.
cEDH: [G(U/R) Animar] - [(U/B)(G/W) Redless Wheels] - [(G/U)(W/B) Redless Pod] - [(B/G)W Ghave Metapod]
And it's always blue that can be played. Dastardly color, screwing up everyone else's day.
I must say, after reading many of your posts I feel like you may not realize yourself as one of perpetrators. You are a strong willed an intelligent person, but your flexibility in viewing someones viewpoint form their own position feels lacking. It seems you tell, tell, tell... fight, fight, fight while forgetting about listening and reflecting.
I feel that if some of the effort of your posts were put into making the other person not feel like they are being attacked, you could be an extremely strong influencer. Instead, I think the impression people get of your posts is abrasive. Nothing you say after someone feels that will make much of an impact.
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG