Quick fact, crypt ghast shouldn't be allowed to be used in mono black EDH decks, though the majority of people think otherwise. Here is a fun dicussion on it's gatherer page -
Extort is a dual ability that appears equally in both black and white, like first strike is dual colored ability that appears equally in both white and red. (see boros recruit, Tundra Wolves, Striking Sliver) In fact there's no reason at all it should say "pay w/b", since only white and black cards have the cost... It should have just been printed as "pay an extra 1,..." Except for one reason:
Mark Rosewater specifically requested the design team to make Extort have the hybrid w/b cost in it so that extort cards could only be used in white AND black EDH decks, not one or the other.
Or, more accurately, he designed it so that the people in charge of the EDH format would remove the ridiculous (in his mind) rule that hybrid cards can't be played in mono colored EDH decks. In Magic Design, Hybrids are cards that can fit into either of the colors it is (for example, Merfolk of the Depths is a card that could be printed at 4GG OR 4UU, without changing or editing anything besides perhaps it's creature types in any way. Gold Cards on the other hand, are cards that give abilities that exist solely because the card is that color (Skyward Eye Prophets gets vigilance because it's white, card draw because it's blue, and land accel, however bad, because it's green. With any one of those colors lacking, they would not have printed skyward eye the way it was).
It's interesting to note that the people who run Elder Dragon Highlander changed the entire rule on color identity just to spite the entire design philosophy behind hybrid costs, while still allowing this card to be run in mono black EDH decks. (the exact kind of deck that ALREADY has too much of this ability)
That's really quite genius on Mark's part. He had a card that begged to be played in mono black EDH, but threw the white cost in there as well to try and force a rules change.
And page 2:
Incorrect, this cards color identity is black-white. Mark Rosewater weighed in on this himself, quoted below:
A keyword is just a stand-in for written out rules for the sake of space efficiency; since the black-white hybrid mana is effectively a part of the rules for extort, it is treated as a part of this card's rules text. The reminder text quotes the rules for extort verbatim since it's an unfamiliar mechanic.
We'll be waiting on a ruling on this. Maybe the commander guys will make an explicit exception for extort, but I'm personally hoping for a total rework of the color identity rules (which are awful).
tl;dr: Yes, the hybrid mana symbol is in the reminder text, but it's also in the extort rules, making Crypt Ghast illegal in non-white-and-black commander decks.
Edit: And a ruling from papa_funk from the commander rules committee on if crypt ghast is legal in mono block, page 4 of this thread:
Since you're here and many eyes are on this, could you make a ruling on if crypt ghast is allowed in a mono colored black deck? It seems like many people are confused, and the statements made by a few and the ruling on the mtgcommander site seem to disagree with what you're saying. This makes things a bit confusing:
Crypt Ghast is fine in mono-black. Color Identity looks at the symbols on the card (ignoring reminder text). It doesn't look through into the CR to do text replacement or anything odd like that.
Kaalia's Army of AnnhilationRWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain MattersWB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator ToolboxBG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to DieRBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and TapGWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to BleedWBG
This Crypt Ghast instance isn't even unique. Has he expressed similar opinions of off color fetchlands, and cards like Murmuring Bosk? To be honest I prefer the status quo where these rules are concerned.
Still it is nice of him to admit he has allowed personal agendas concerning rules he finds objectionable, in a format which at the time had two separate banlists and is still prone to all manner of extralegal deck construction restrictions and house rules, to influence his design philosophy. The transparency is appreciated.
I agree with MaRo in this case. I feel like as it stands this is a huge hindrance to hybrid mana cards which should be a really cool thing for commander it instead makes them really undesirable as they are limited in where they can be run where in every other format of the game they are more versatile and fit more colors.
The hardest part in my mind is making hybrid mana cards legal in a way that does not turn all phyrexian mana cards into essentially artifacts. I really don't want to see Birthing Pod and Phyrexian Metamorph become colorless as I would take that as a negative but I cant think of any hybrid mana cards that I would dislike seeing the ability to play as they are intended to be able to be played.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
I don't see what the problem is with the current rules regarding hybrids. If allowed in mono-white, would Divinity of Pride be considered a non-black creature all of the sudden? I just don't think Maro likes/understands commander.
I don't see what the problem is with the current rules regarding hybrids. If allowed in mono-white, would Divinity of Pride be considered a non-black creature all of the sudden? I just don't think Maro likes/understands commander.
It would still be both. The argument mostly stems from the standpoint that you could run a deck with all Plains as its landbase and cast Divinity of Pride with no black sources in a deck. These cards were intended to be playable in either color. If they were intended to need both types of mana to be played they would have made it both colors but the intention of the design of hybrid mana was to be playable in either type of deck.
It is due to the rules of commander that they are not playable as intended and as played in ALL other magic formats.
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Quick fact, crypt ghast is not allowed to be used in mono black EDH decks, though the majority of people think otherwise.
Except
Quote from mtgcommander.com deck construction rules »
Reminder text is not included in the colour identity of a card.
Which was always the case because otherwise Trinisphere would be limited to black decks and Charmed Pendant would be limited to black/blue decks.
I feel Extort is different than those cases though because if it weren't keyworded, Extort cards would have the reminder text as their actual rules text. And then they would clearly have a WB color identity.
I agree with MaRo in this case. I feel like as it stands this is a huge hindrance to hybrid mana cards which should be a really cool thing for commander it instead makes them really undesirable as they are limited in where they can be run where in every other format of the game they are more versatile and fit more colors.
The hardest part in my mind is making hybrid mana cards legal in a way that does not turn all phyrexian mana cards into essentially artifacts. I really don't want to see Birthing Pod and Phyrexian Metamorph become colorless as I would take that as a negative but I cant think of any hybrid mana cards that I would dislike seeing the ability to play as they are intended to be able to be played.
I think the real question is, what is the most broken things you could do with such in decks not of that color?
Or rather, what is the worst that could happen if BP or PM were allowed in off color decks?
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
It would still be both.
(text)
It is due to the rules of commander that they are not playable as intended and as played in ALL other magic formats.
A unique part of commander that adds diversity to the format is the restriction on colors based on your commander, which separates it from "All other magic formats".
Color identity is more important in commander than any other format, mono-white decks are not supposed to be able to cast black cards. Now, if the card had an ability or something called hybrid - you may cast this card as a white spell using white mana or a black spell using black mana maybe I could see something there, but that's not the case.
I think the real question is, what is the most broken things you could do with such in decks not of that color?
Or rather, what is the worst that could happen if BP or PM were allowed in off color decks?
Those cards would become auto includes in a huge number of lists. Birthing Pod in particular would probably show up in anything running more than twenty creatures. I know the RC doesn't ban cards for power level concerns, but there's a case to be made the phyrexian mana cards in particular could become format warping because of their use frequency.
Somewhat tangential: How would we interpret the identity of cards like Beseech the Queen under such a rules chance.
It's nice that EDH gets considered in design decisions. I just wish Rosewater would stop trying to force the format into what HE thinks it should be, especially since he's admitted that he doesn't play it.
I would agree that the reminder text for extort is part of the rules of the card. Trinisphere is completely different because the reminder text was just a ruling example and is not equated with any keyword/ability/whatever you want to call them.
Not that I want to see extort removed from pure black, but it makes sense from a rules perspective.
I really doubt hybrid cards are going to see lenience from color identity because they really are both colors. Divinity of Pride can be destroyed by either Dark Betrayal or Soul Rend and can be countered by Stromgald Cabal even if you pay BBBBB just like Force of Will is blue even if you use its alternative cost (same with Phyrexian mana and Reaper King, they do not become colorless spells no matter how you pay for them).
The only possible results I can see are either no change or extort (and possibly other words) being reclassified as more colors. Sorry Maro, your hope of change for hybrid color identities simply makes no sense unless you arbitrarily change the rules of the base game. Commander is just a layer on top of that and there does not seem like any reason to give hybrid cards a special case even though they would be fun to play in other decks.
P.S. In what way is Spitting Image a 4GG card? The only time green has ever made copies of creature cards is Dual Nature, but that is a completely different idea than a targeted copy. Green often makes cards copy themselves, but that again is utterly different. I have a really hard time believing Spitting Image could ever have been printed as pure green. It stretches a bit too far.
I don't see what the problem is with the current rules regarding hybrids. If allowed in mono-white, would Divinity of Pride be considered a non-black creature all of the sudden? I just don't think Maro likes/understands commander.
And what would happen if it changed control? Would we have to track which color it was based on its owner?
Color identity is more important in commander than any other format, mono-white decks are not supposed to be able to cast black cards. Now, if the card had an ability or something called hybrid - you may cast this card as a white spell using white mana or a black spell using black mana maybe I could see something there, but that's not the case.
This is pretty much the only thing that is keeping me from supporting hybrids and phyrexian spells in otherwise "off-color" decks. Of course, issues abound as to the additional state-tracking required in some decks as a result of that (yes, my Boros Reckoner is only R right now. No, my Figure of Destiny is W. Don't get me started on my Reaper King...). Also, I always felt that MaRo's stance regarding Color Identity rules was more him having an issue with how Hybrids function in Magic as a whole, and that Color Identity showcases those issues more often than having a mono-B player's Divinity of Pride blocked by Akroma, Angel of Fury.
In a version of Magic where color had no in-game relevance outside of what symbols were in its mana cost, I think that far more people would be accepting of off-color hybrids in their decks.
I think the real question is, what is the most broken things you could do with such in decks not of that color?
Or rather, what is the worst that could happen if BP or PM were allowed in off color decks?
Assuming we are restricting to just hybrid... I pulled out the ones more worth considering and put them here. There are a lot more hybrid cards I just felt like most of the others were less worth considering playing in general.
Cold-Eyed Selkie is a bit odd because it gives an evasion based on hit draw effect but blue has Thieving Magpie and green has Hystrodon and Ohran Viper so I dont think its an issue either way.
Debtors' Knell its a decent card but I honestly havent run it in a deck in a long time due to how long it takes to rez. Still, I think looking at white based enchantress decks its decently solid. I think its stronger when considered as a white spell but its so expensive and slow it really shouldnt be an issue either way.
Immortal Servitude its a bit interesting as an either or effect because white generally doesnt get this sort of effect as much when considering multiple rezes but when looking at Marshal's Anthem and Reveillark I think its not that much of a stretch for white.
Master Warcraft its a really good effect that we honestly haven't seen much else of. Odric, Master Tactician is probably the closest similar effect. White and red need help though so I wouldnt worry about it.
Memory Plunder its odd because its combining things that before this neither really had access to. Since then we have gotten Chancellor of the Spires and Diluvian Primordial so its more impressive to give black access to it. Still... it doesn't seem like a huge issue though.
Murkfiend Liege its a bit concerning from a standpoint of an Azami, Lady of Scrolls or when playing stasis effects. Still, this seems a bit limited as to where it might be an issue in since blue creature based decks seem a bit rare and green has a few better effects already with prophet and the muse.
Oona, Queen of the Fae overall it seems probably fine. Its got a good size to it for the mana which is rare for these colors. Its ability really isnt replicated much so its hard to say which it would belong to more. Its probably stronger from a blue perspective though as they don't have as much access to token making.
Privileged Position solid effect but honestly I think its overrated. It generally gives people a reason to want to blow up your things and draws a lot of attention to itself not to mention that sweepers for noncreatures are on a rise and blow right through this.
Rhys the Redeemed both colors have access to good token production but its probably stronger from a white perspective due to Ranger of Eos to be honest. It seems like he would be fine though to me.
Spitting Image people dont really run this much but I could see some concern about this seeing play in mono green decks where ramping hard seems to be a common tactic.
Of the bunch of them.... Spitting Image is probably the most concerning but even then its not a card that sees a lot of play as is so outside of a green ramp happy deck I dont really think it would see much play. Honestly most of these cards are just ok and would still need the right deck. I dont see any of these cards being staples of any decks really.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
And what would happen if it changed control? Would we have to track which color it was based on its owner?
First of all, owner =/= controller. Second of all, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
EDIT: It looks like we largely agree based on the rest of your post though.
I've been arguing against it from a flavor standpoint, but we can also talk about an effect on the format.
Hybrid cards would likely not cause too many problems in mono-color decks (even though I don't like it from a flavor standpoint), but do you apply the same rules to phyrexian mana cards? Does every deck ever need Birthing Pod and Phyrexian Metamorph? I guess mono-red would get a hell of a power boost, but I don't think that would be good for the format.
I think the real question is, what is the most broken things you could do with such in decks not of that color?
Or rather, what is the worst that could happen if BP or PM were allowed in off color decks?
Those cards would become auto includes in a huge number of lists. Birthing Pod in particular would probably show up in anything running more than twenty creatures. I know the RC doesn't ban cards for power level concerns, but there's a case to be made the phyrexian mana cards in particular could become format warping because of their use frequency.
Somewhat tangential: How would we interpret the identity of cards like Beseech the Queen under such a rules chance.
So why aren't they included in every Green list ever NOW?
You could argue that it would do broken things in any color combo, like say R/U, but you could very easily splash G and just throw a Birthing Pod into R/U/G.
It literally wouldn't do anything it doesn't do now.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
I think you guys are forgetting something here as well. The rules serve the players not confine them. If the players feel that something should change, it is up to the RC to change the rules to reflect it. Yes the current rules do not allow for hybrid mana but saying that the world would fall apart if it were to happen seems a little excessive. The rules serve the players and it happens to have been an early rule that was established which disalows playing them. It could just as easily have had a rule that allowed them but that is not how the early rules were established.
The format has grown and had time to mature. It should be a reasonable manner to examine the rules and make sure that they are serving the players and the format to still be in effect. I think it is a bit extreme to yell and holler that it is against the spirit of the format when the rules reflect whatever the RC and playerbase wants them to reflect.
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Taken from page 4 on: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Discussion.aspx?popularpage=5&multiverseid=366452#popularPosts
That's really quite genius on Mark's part. He had a card that begged to be played in mono black EDH, but threw the white cost in there as well to try and force a rules change.
And page 2:
Edit: And a ruling from papa_funk from the commander rules committee on if crypt ghast is legal in mono block, page 4 of this thread:
Kaalia's Army of Annhilation RWB
Obzedat, Ghost Council - Life Gain Matters WB
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord - Fatty Reanimator Toolbox BG
Nekusar, the Mindrazer - Draw to Die RBU
Marath, Will of the Wild - Token Pump and Tap GWR
Roon of the Hidden Realm - Blink to Bleed WBG
Except
Which was always the case because otherwise Trinisphere would be limited to black decks and Charmed Pendant would be limited to black/blue decks.
Currently Playing:
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EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
Still it is nice of him to admit he has allowed personal agendas concerning rules he finds objectionable, in a format which at the time had two separate banlists and is still prone to all manner of extralegal deck construction restrictions and house rules, to influence his design philosophy. The transparency is appreciated.
Oh Rider, my heart will go on...
However, recent events such as the addition of EDH to the FNM list makes me think that WoTC is attempting a slow and sneaky takeover of the format.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
The hardest part in my mind is making hybrid mana cards legal in a way that does not turn all phyrexian mana cards into essentially artifacts. I really don't want to see Birthing Pod and Phyrexian Metamorph become colorless as I would take that as a negative but I cant think of any hybrid mana cards that I would dislike seeing the ability to play as they are intended to be able to be played.
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It would still be both. The argument mostly stems from the standpoint that you could run a deck with all Plains as its landbase and cast Divinity of Pride with no black sources in a deck. These cards were intended to be playable in either color. If they were intended to need both types of mana to be played they would have made it both colors but the intention of the design of hybrid mana was to be playable in either type of deck.
It is due to the rules of commander that they are not playable as intended and as played in ALL other magic formats.
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Can you counter Mournful Zombie with Stromgald Cabal? Yet its color identity is WB.
I feel Extort is different than those cases though because if it weren't keyworded, Extort cards would have the reminder text as their actual rules text. And then they would clearly have a WB color identity.
I think the real question is, what is the most broken things you could do with such in decks not of that color?
Or rather, what is the worst that could happen if BP or PM were allowed in off color decks?
A unique part of commander that adds diversity to the format is the restriction on colors based on your commander, which separates it from "All other magic formats".
Color identity is more important in commander than any other format, mono-white decks are not supposed to be able to cast black cards. Now, if the card had an ability or something called hybrid - you may cast this card as a white spell using white mana or a black spell using black mana maybe I could see something there, but that's not the case.
Those cards would become auto includes in a huge number of lists. Birthing Pod in particular would probably show up in anything running more than twenty creatures. I know the RC doesn't ban cards for power level concerns, but there's a case to be made the phyrexian mana cards in particular could become format warping because of their use frequency.
Somewhat tangential: How would we interpret the identity of cards like Beseech the Queen under such a rules chance.
Oh Rider, my heart will go on...
Not that I want to see extort removed from pure black, but it makes sense from a rules perspective.
I really doubt hybrid cards are going to see lenience from color identity because they really are both colors. Divinity of Pride can be destroyed by either Dark Betrayal or Soul Rend and can be countered by Stromgald Cabal even if you pay BBBBB just like Force of Will is blue even if you use its alternative cost (same with Phyrexian mana and Reaper King, they do not become colorless spells no matter how you pay for them).
The only possible results I can see are either no change or extort (and possibly other words) being reclassified as more colors. Sorry Maro, your hope of change for hybrid color identities simply makes no sense unless you arbitrarily change the rules of the base game. Commander is just a layer on top of that and there does not seem like any reason to give hybrid cards a special case even though they would be fun to play in other decks.
P.S. In what way is Spitting Image a 4GG card? The only time green has ever made copies of creature cards is Dual Nature, but that is a completely different idea than a targeted copy. Green often makes cards copy themselves, but that again is utterly different. I have a really hard time believing Spitting Image could ever have been printed as pure green. It stretches a bit too far.
And what would happen if it changed control? Would we have to track which color it was based on its owner?
This is pretty much the only thing that is keeping me from supporting hybrids and phyrexian spells in otherwise "off-color" decks. Of course, issues abound as to the additional state-tracking required in some decks as a result of that (yes, my Boros Reckoner is only R right now. No, my Figure of Destiny is W. Don't get me started on my Reaper King...). Also, I always felt that MaRo's stance regarding Color Identity rules was more him having an issue with how Hybrids function in Magic as a whole, and that Color Identity showcases those issues more often than having a mono-B player's Divinity of Pride blocked by Akroma, Angel of Fury.
In a version of Magic where color had no in-game relevance outside of what symbols were in its mana cost, I think that far more people would be accepting of off-color hybrids in their decks.
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks
It does make sense because it is a white spell.
Assuming we are restricting to just hybrid... I pulled out the ones more worth considering and put them here. There are a lot more hybrid cards I just felt like most of the others were less worth considering playing in general.
Looking at these,
Cold-Eyed Selkie is a bit odd because it gives an evasion based on hit draw effect but blue has Thieving Magpie and green has Hystrodon and Ohran Viper so I dont think its an issue either way.
Debtors' Knell its a decent card but I honestly havent run it in a deck in a long time due to how long it takes to rez. Still, I think looking at white based enchantress decks its decently solid. I think its stronger when considered as a white spell but its so expensive and slow it really shouldnt be an issue either way.
Immortal Servitude its a bit interesting as an either or effect because white generally doesnt get this sort of effect as much when considering multiple rezes but when looking at Marshal's Anthem and Reveillark I think its not that much of a stretch for white.
Master Warcraft its a really good effect that we honestly haven't seen much else of. Odric, Master Tactician is probably the closest similar effect. White and red need help though so I wouldnt worry about it.
Memory Plunder its odd because its combining things that before this neither really had access to. Since then we have gotten Chancellor of the Spires and Diluvian Primordial so its more impressive to give black access to it. Still... it doesn't seem like a huge issue though.
Murkfiend Liege its a bit concerning from a standpoint of an Azami, Lady of Scrolls or when playing stasis effects. Still, this seems a bit limited as to where it might be an issue in since blue creature based decks seem a bit rare and green has a few better effects already with prophet and the muse.
Oona, Queen of the Fae overall it seems probably fine. Its got a good size to it for the mana which is rare for these colors. Its ability really isnt replicated much so its hard to say which it would belong to more. Its probably stronger from a blue perspective though as they don't have as much access to token making.
Privileged Position solid effect but honestly I think its overrated. It generally gives people a reason to want to blow up your things and draws a lot of attention to itself not to mention that sweepers for noncreatures are on a rise and blow right through this.
Rhys the Redeemed both colors have access to good token production but its probably stronger from a white perspective due to Ranger of Eos to be honest. It seems like he would be fine though to me.
Spitting Image people dont really run this much but I could see some concern about this seeing play in mono green decks where ramping hard seems to be a common tactic.
Of the bunch of them.... Spitting Image is probably the most concerning but even then its not a card that sees a lot of play as is so outside of a green ramp happy deck I dont really think it would see much play. Honestly most of these cards are just ok and would still need the right deck. I dont see any of these cards being staples of any decks really.
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First of all, owner =/= controller. Second of all, I'm not sure what you're getting at here.
EDIT: It looks like we largely agree based on the rest of your post though.
I've been arguing against it from a flavor standpoint, but we can also talk about an effect on the format.
Hybrid cards would likely not cause too many problems in mono-color decks (even though I don't like it from a flavor standpoint), but do you apply the same rules to phyrexian mana cards? Does every deck ever need Birthing Pod and Phyrexian Metamorph? I guess mono-red would get a hell of a power boost, but I don't think that would be good for the format.
So why aren't they included in every Green list ever NOW?
You could argue that it would do broken things in any color combo, like say R/U, but you could very easily splash G and just throw a Birthing Pod into R/U/G.
It literally wouldn't do anything it doesn't do now.
The point you're missing is that mono-R is not (and should not be) the same thing as R/G and R/U.
One card is all I need to make R into R/G?!?
You literally just said it wasn't a big deal for mono-R to have it because R/G and R/U have it...I was merely pointing out that it doesn't make sense.
The format has grown and had time to mature. It should be a reasonable manner to examine the rules and make sure that they are serving the players and the format to still be in effect. I think it is a bit extreme to yell and holler that it is against the spirit of the format when the rules reflect whatever the RC and playerbase wants them to reflect.
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