If it's multiplayer? Not a chance -- never cross multi-man games with cash on the line. Anyone with half a brain knows this.
If it's 1v1? Sure -- I'd bring Edric, Spymaster of Trest to that (no reason to bring anything other than Edric).
Hope any LGS would be smart enough to use the Duel-Commander ruleset if these are to be 1v1.
I'd be okay with multi-player assuming that you could restrict the pod to your own playgroup instead of randomizing it (IE each playgroup gets its own pod and can use its own community norms). Otherwise only French Rules Duel commander makes sense.
Either way it's not a format that's very accessible to average or new players so I don't foresee much commander FNM unless it's shop big enough to have two or three concurrent FNM events.
Its sanctioned so pairings would happen through the DCI reporter. But it doesn't matter - multiplayer + cash for grabs = no bueno.
If it's multiplayer? Not a chance -- never cross multi-man games with cash on the line. Anyone with half a brain knows this.
If it's 1v1? Sure -- I'd bring Edric, Spymaster of Trest to that (no reason to bring anything other than Edric).
Hope any LGS would be smart enough to use the Duel-Commander ruleset if these are to be 1v1.
I'd be okay with multi-player assuming that you could restrict the pod to your own playgroup instead of randomizing it (IE each playgroup gets its own pod and can use its own community norms). Otherwise only French Rules Duel commander makes sense.
Either way it's not a format that's very accessible to average or new players so I don't foresee much commander FNM unless it's shop big enough to have two or three concurrent FNM events.
Its sanctioned so pairings would happen through the DCI reporter. But it doesn't matter - multiplayer + cash for grabs = no bueno.
You realize that you can change the prize structure to accommodate the casualness of the format, right? Say, each player buys a pack to enter into the tournament, and the winner gets an extra pack - that way no one's trying to make back money, and the incentive to lose friends to win the pod is minimal.
A place near us runs it that way with a similar structure, and the games are rarely terrible.
For those that care, here is the article that makes the announcement. I also found a screenshot of the FNM formats available here, which shows that this isn't just a Commander thing; it's a complete expansion of FNM to be as inclusive as possible.
I like that part where they talk about how FNM promos won't be necessarily tied to performance which gives the LGS some discretion as to how they distribute prizes. This doesn't solve the issues of player collusion, disparate power level, higher REL communication in a multiplayer environment, and the general thought that this breaks the spirit of the format, but it leaves open some avenues that can potentially limit the problems of putting this into practice.
I like that part where they talk about how FNM promos won't be necessarily tied to performance which gives the LGS some discretion as to how they distribute prizes. This doesn't solve the issues of player collusion, disparate power level, higher REL communication in a multiplayer environment, and the general thought that this breaks the spirit of the format, but it leaves open some avenues that can potentially limit the problems of putting this into practice.
You can just have a flatter prize payout, can't you? Unless Commander tournaments end up heavily affecting Planeswalker Points (which I assume is going to be fixed if it isn't already), there'd be no more reason to collude than there would be in a casual game.
As many, many people have mentioned before, attaching a prize structure to multiplayer games tends to be a glorious trainwreck of misery. And besides that, does the FNM ladder structure even allow for multiplayer pods?
Regardless, any store doing Commander FNMs without flattening the prizes so that winning doesn't matter other than for Points is going to have hella issues. Duel Commander FNMs would be nice, though ridiculously prohibitive for anyone who can't dump a few grand on a deck.
One thing which hasn't been brought up yet is the time limit factor. At what time do you set a reasonable limit that won't encourage everyone to just build a fast combo deck like Druid?
In regards to time, is setting a mandatory minimum time (or number of turns) worthwhile to compensate for disparity in decks? I've played in a few Commander tourneys, and AzureShadow is correct, they are trainrides to misery - player collusion, race to combo, at least one new player per pod sporting an answer-light pile o' cards... bad times.
Maybe just sanction League play under the "build your own" option, for those stores fortunate enough to have a league.
Cheers!
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If in the area, check out Gamers N Geeks and Mini War Games in Mobile, Alabama and Underhill's Games in Cuyahoga Falls, Ohio.
I think this will only lead to turning new players off. Some will buy and play a precon and get violated, than turn to standard. Why don't they just sanction a Legacy highlander format. A least you know what you are getting into.
One thing which hasn't been brought up yet is the time limit factor. At what time do you set a reasonable limit that won't encourage everyone to just build a fast combo deck like Druid?
The league I run (which has been sanctioned for years in the WER as "Magic Casual Multi-Player") has two rounds each Wednesday, with each round having a 1h40m time limit. (100 minutes, or 25m per player for a 4-player table.) When the timer goes off, if the game is still running, you complete the current turn, and then play until the last person in the turn cycle. (So if it's player D's turn when time is called, everyone gets one more turn. If it's player B's turn, players C and D each get one more turn. Etc.)
The system has worked out well, with the exception of the player who has recently been running a trollolol deck which often makes games go to time... but runs Timesifter.
where i live in new jersey, i'm very lucky to have several stores that run EDH/COMMANDER events. One store i go to has edh every tuesday. it's a five dollar buy in and you get a pack. the store sets up the pods at random and the winner of each pod gets one pack. at the end of the night a person in each pod randomly gets a pack. the store also has their own ban list to promote fair play (no infinite plays). i enjoy it. people play with all types of decks because of the prize structure there is no need to make a really overpower deck.
another store i go to have edh once a month. it's a five dollar buy in and you get a pack and list of achievements. some of them could be "take a 100 damage and don't die" or "kill someone with their own commander" or "attack three or more players at once". at the end of the event you get a raffle ticket for each achievement you get and the store raffle off prizes. it's really fun.
Multiplayer FNM - I think its a decent option. My only thing is that I wouldn't put any sort of entry fee into this. Playing just for some promos isn't going to be that big of a deal and you can distribute them as you choose so you don't even have to give them to the winners by any means. If you just want to have FNM be the commander night and you roll dice to see who gets some participation promos I think you can still have fun and play EDH at a FNM event.
Personally I don't buy the idea that you cannot play multiplayer commander at these events. It is true that you might be incentivising players to bring their more powerful decks if you are giving promos away based on who wins but you are forgetting that they also mentioned that the distribution of the promos has also changed to however the store wants to distribute them so you don't need to make it a competition for the promos.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
As nice as it would be for my LGS to sanction Commander for an FNM format, it won't happen. Like someone above me said, the numbers for Standard and Draft greatly outweigh any other format.
While a good third or more of the players at my LGC have Commander decks, the powerlevel varies quite a bit between them. Considering that Draft sign ups fill up within the first minute and Standard sign ups within the first hour, I doubt that we'll ever switch over to Commander as an FNM format. Modern FNMs only happen once every 3 months or so and those don't fill up as quickly and often don't even reach the max number of players.
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"If we don't know what we are doing, the enemy certainly can't anticipate our future actions!"
-Anonymous
I see a lot of people missing a lot of the info on the idea here. O_o Commander ISN'T the only format being brought in as a possible FNM and the big point of the announcement was that the prize support is designed to let people CHOOSE how to do FNMs...
If everyone thinks it really would be too broken with a certain prize structure...then change it. The whole idea is to do FNMs the way everyone WANTS to do them. Afraid of over competitive decks? Give prizes to everyone, or perhaps even prizes to certain goals in the game, and not just winning (or not even winning at all).
It'll be interesting to see if my LGS will want to do it, but I'm sure gonna try and see if I can get this off the ground.
One thing which hasn't been brought up yet is the time limit factor. At what time do you set a reasonable limit that won't encourage everyone to just build a fast combo deck like Druid?
Good point. I forgot to mention time limits as well. You'd have to limit the pods to 4 players and set a 100 minute limit (which is double the normal 50 minute for 1v1 games, but you only play a single game and you don't have sideboarding time). If your FNM is normally 6 rounds, this would allow for 3 rounds of Commander. Of course, this also assumes that you have almost 6 hours to play an FNM.
To that same point, in a more formalized game you would have to deal with some of the shortcuts that people take to lessen the time impact on the game. People simultaneously searching libraries for fetchlands or using SSD a lot more liberally. You would need to balance the time aspect with the higher standard for rules enforcement.
My store will continue to run Draft and Standard as its "competitive" FNM formats, with no change to prize support.
I am also adding Commander each week as a "Casual" FNM. This means I don't need to create rounds, report results, etc. Just add in the players and sanction.
The Commander FNM events will be free entry, run in 4-man pods. The winner of each pod will get an FNM promo (I'm Advanced Plus so I'll have plenty to give out). You will be able to enter these along with a "Competitive" FNM, since I'll just make a list of players who participated and sanction it at the end of the night.
This way, I can add Commander as an FNM option, without adversely affecting any of our other numbers, and without putting so much prize on the line that it turns a casual format hardcore. I'm also hopeful it will generate interest for my league players to play FNM, and vice versa.
Thoughts?
Edit: If anyone wasn't aware, stores can now schedule up to 3 "Competitive" FNM's (1x PWP) and 3 "Casual" FNM's (1 PWP for entry) weekly, for a total of 6 scheduled events. The number of events scheduled weekly doesn't impact the number of promos your store gets.
My store will continue to run Draft and Standard as its "competitive" FNM formats, with no change to prize support.
I am also adding Commander each week as a "Casual" FNM. This means I don't need to create rounds, report results, etc. Just add in the players and sanction.
The Commander FNM events will be free entry, run in 4-man pods. The winner of each pod will get an FNM promo (I'm Advanced Plus so I'll have plenty to give out). You will be able to enter these along with a "Competitive" FNM, since I'll just make a list of players who participated and sanction it at the end of the night.
This way, I can add Commander as an FNM option, without adversely affecting any of our other numbers, and without putting so much prize on the line that it turns a casual format hardcore. I'm also hopeful it will generate interest for my league players to play FNM, and vice versa.
Thoughts?
Edit: If anyone wasn't aware, stores can now schedule up to 3 "Competitive" FNM's (1x PWP) and 3 "Casual" FNM's (1 PWP for entry) weekly, for a total of 6 scheduled events. The number of events scheduled weekly doesn't impact the number of promos your store gets.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
No. Why would i willingly play a with a group of optimized cutthroat decks? It's like playing commander minus any reason to play commander. Those decks aren't fun, it's just vintage. Now... the best thing about this is that block party is now an FNM format. Why would I play commander when I could play block party? Stupid questions are stupid.
I agree. We should all only play g/x decks because they are the most objectively fun and anyone who disagrees does not know the truth about EDH. Everyone should just play their decks because interaction beyond high fiving about how many land are in play is unfun and equivalent to casting Stasis while kicking puppies. I for one will never play with anyone who casts tutors, removal spells, blue cards, things I arbitrarily decide I don't like but will probably cast myself later.
We run multiplayer pod tournaments and it works out fine. The one issue is simply the pod sizes can go from 3-6 and anything above 4 is undesireable and too chaotic. But we notice a pattern of winners and it seems the more skilled players keep getting to finals consistently.
I think FNM will need wizards to give an updated ban list whether it goes pod or 1v1. I am very against the French banlist as it has some silly inclusions...such as banning 2 commanders released with the intention of commander in mind.
There are pretty simple ways to limit the number of combo decks that will be present in any FNM, the store i go to has a simple point system, 1 point for killing with an infinite combo, 2 points for killing any way but commander damage, 3 points for killing with commander damage, 4 points for dealing 21 points of commander damage in a single turn(non infinite of course). This was played in 4 man pods with ways to get a couple extra points here and there, a few ways to lose points(the only significant one being taking more than 3 turns in a row) with the standard ban list. I dont think anyone got more then 2-3 "extra" points in any given pod.
Dont get me wrong, optimized decks will always do better since thats what "optimized" means but basically running combo means you almost cannot win since if another pod happens where someone gets a couple commander kills they will crush you in the point totals even if they dont win all their pods. A deck that consistent won was an Asuza deck, even though there were plenty of people doing crazy zur, jenara, rafiq, sharum. All the goodies, now the Asuza deck in question was quite well built and pretty expensive but you can build a damn good Asuza deck for near the cost of a high end standard deck pretty easily that would be fairly competitive especially with that ridiculous Wave of Vitriol coming out now.
Personally I think that EDH FNM cant help but make things more interesting and keep people enjoying the format all the more. If people dont like the idea of Competitive EDH then...dont play? Just like I choose not to play standard because i dont like having to spend hundreds of dollars every couple months to get cards that are worth at best 30% of what they were as soon as they rotate or playing other formats that are basically just "Combo decks vs U/X aggro control" You can absolutely have good multiplayer tourneys and as people have said there are fairly few people who would risk the wrath of an entire store to collude for a couple packs, those that do probably arnt the type of people you want playing in your store anyway.
Why would people want to battle in multiplayer EDH? It's much more casual then french EDH. Yea things like strip mine and cataclysm are not present but you have almost the same card in Wasteland and Armagenden. I personally love french EDH. As one of the 10~ people who go to my stores french EDH tournaments every month. I don't think that the multiplayer EDH ban list is anywhere close to a tournament worthy. So I think that one the multiplayer EDH format should stay casual because I saw the one tournament of it and its just a bunch of combo decks gold fishing because there is no force that can stop all of them. I would rather not watch new players who find EDH a very fun format to be turned off because they watched someone combo off for 1/2 hour.
TLDR: I think multiplayer player tournaments should not be held in fear of turning new players off. How ever i do strongly support the idea of French EDH is a very appealing to me because it is just a more competitive format.
I like the idea of FNM-EDH, but you'd have to be very, very, really, really careful about implementing it. If cash is on the line, inevitably people will continue to soup up their best decks* until everyone is playing tedious "no fun" combos. If it is to be played in multiplayer pods, you have the problem of collusion (for example: my brother would bring Zegana and I'd bring Damia, our best "dick" decks). Worst case scenario: people eventually become tired of playing the format, at least competitively, and FNM-EDH dies just as quickly as it started.
Now, if there wasn't anything at stake it'd be very enticing for me. Like, everyone gets a promo just for showing up and not being a jackrabbit. Or the prize goes out randomly to anyone who played (possibly with the stipulation that you can't concede...something along those lines).
Stuff to think about, certainly. Though I am a little worried about the prices of certain cards, many are super expensive simply because they're impossible to acquire #reservedlist. It'd be cool if a very small pool of cards were allowed to be proxied hassle free (I'm namely speaking of the alpha duals, and really not much else).
(* - deck tweaking and power-ups are going to happen anyway, there's no denying it. I'm saying people would make their decks super cutthroat simply for the sake of being cutthroat.)
Its sanctioned so pairings would happen through the DCI reporter. But it doesn't matter - multiplayer + cash for grabs = no bueno.
Steel Sabotage'ng Orbs of Mellowness since 2011.
You realize that you can change the prize structure to accommodate the casualness of the format, right? Say, each player buys a pack to enter into the tournament, and the winner gets an extra pack - that way no one's trying to make back money, and the incentive to lose friends to win the pod is minimal.
A place near us runs it that way with a similar structure, and the games are rarely terrible.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
For those that care, here is the article that makes the announcement. I also found a screenshot of the FNM formats available here, which shows that this isn't just a Commander thing; it's a complete expansion of FNM to be as inclusive as possible.
I like that part where they talk about how FNM promos won't be necessarily tied to performance which gives the LGS some discretion as to how they distribute prizes. This doesn't solve the issues of player collusion, disparate power level, higher REL communication in a multiplayer environment, and the general thought that this breaks the spirit of the format, but it leaves open some avenues that can potentially limit the problems of putting this into practice.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
You can just have a flatter prize payout, can't you? Unless Commander tournaments end up heavily affecting Planeswalker Points (which I assume is going to be fixed if it isn't already), there'd be no more reason to collude than there would be in a casual game.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Regardless, any store doing Commander FNMs without flattening the prizes so that winning doesn't matter other than for Points is going to have hella issues. Duel Commander FNMs would be nice, though ridiculously prohibitive for anyone who can't dump a few grand on a deck.
Misc. EDH Stuff: Commander Cube | Zombies (Horde)
Resources:Commander Rulings FAQ | Commander Deckbuilding Guide
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Maybe just sanction League play under the "build your own" option, for those stores fortunate enough to have a league.
Cheers!
Krichaiushii on PucaTrade.
The system has worked out well, with the exception of the player who has recently been running a trollolol deck which often makes games go to time... but runs Timesifter.
Two Score, Minus Two or: A Stargate Tail
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another store i go to have edh once a month. it's a five dollar buy in and you get a pack and list of achievements. some of them could be "take a 100 damage and don't die" or "kill someone with their own commander" or "attack three or more players at once". at the end of the event you get a raffle ticket for each achievement you get and the store raffle off prizes. it's really fun.
Personally I don't buy the idea that you cannot play multiplayer commander at these events. It is true that you might be incentivising players to bring their more powerful decks if you are giving promos away based on who wins but you are forgetting that they also mentioned that the distribution of the promos has also changed to however the store wants to distribute them so you don't need to make it a competition for the promos.
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[Modern] Allies
-Anonymous
If everyone thinks it really would be too broken with a certain prize structure...then change it. The whole idea is to do FNMs the way everyone WANTS to do them. Afraid of over competitive decks? Give prizes to everyone, or perhaps even prizes to certain goals in the game, and not just winning (or not even winning at all).
It'll be interesting to see if my LGS will want to do it, but I'm sure gonna try and see if I can get this off the ground.
Good point. I forgot to mention time limits as well. You'd have to limit the pods to 4 players and set a 100 minute limit (which is double the normal 50 minute for 1v1 games, but you only play a single game and you don't have sideboarding time). If your FNM is normally 6 rounds, this would allow for 3 rounds of Commander. Of course, this also assumes that you have almost 6 hours to play an FNM.
To that same point, in a more formalized game you would have to deal with some of the shortcuts that people take to lessen the time impact on the game. People simultaneously searching libraries for fetchlands or using SSD a lot more liberally. You would need to balance the time aspect with the higher standard for rules enforcement.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
My store will continue to run Draft and Standard as its "competitive" FNM formats, with no change to prize support.
I am also adding Commander each week as a "Casual" FNM. This means I don't need to create rounds, report results, etc. Just add in the players and sanction.
The Commander FNM events will be free entry, run in 4-man pods. The winner of each pod will get an FNM promo (I'm Advanced Plus so I'll have plenty to give out). You will be able to enter these along with a "Competitive" FNM, since I'll just make a list of players who participated and sanction it at the end of the night.
This way, I can add Commander as an FNM option, without adversely affecting any of our other numbers, and without putting so much prize on the line that it turns a casual format hardcore. I'm also hopeful it will generate interest for my league players to play FNM, and vice versa.
Thoughts?
Edit: If anyone wasn't aware, stores can now schedule up to 3 "Competitive" FNM's (1x PWP) and 3 "Casual" FNM's (1 PWP for entry) weekly, for a total of 6 scheduled events. The number of events scheduled weekly doesn't impact the number of promos your store gets.
This sounds like an excellent way to do it.
I think FNM will need wizards to give an updated ban list whether it goes pod or 1v1. I am very against the French banlist as it has some silly inclusions...such as banning 2 commanders released with the intention of commander in mind.
Dont get me wrong, optimized decks will always do better since thats what "optimized" means but basically running combo means you almost cannot win since if another pod happens where someone gets a couple commander kills they will crush you in the point totals even if they dont win all their pods. A deck that consistent won was an Asuza deck, even though there were plenty of people doing crazy zur, jenara, rafiq, sharum. All the goodies, now the Asuza deck in question was quite well built and pretty expensive but you can build a damn good Asuza deck for near the cost of a high end standard deck pretty easily that would be fairly competitive especially with that ridiculous Wave of Vitriol coming out now.
Personally I think that EDH FNM cant help but make things more interesting and keep people enjoying the format all the more. If people dont like the idea of Competitive EDH then...dont play? Just like I choose not to play standard because i dont like having to spend hundreds of dollars every couple months to get cards that are worth at best 30% of what they were as soon as they rotate or playing other formats that are basically just "Combo decks vs U/X aggro control" You can absolutely have good multiplayer tourneys and as people have said there are fairly few people who would risk the wrath of an entire store to collude for a couple packs, those that do probably arnt the type of people you want playing in your store anyway.
Ramps up prices, cuts diversity and is tough to make work. I think its an awful idea.
BRGKresh the BloodbraidedBRG, A box of lands and ideas.
Modern:
RG Titanshift. A deck made of cards too stupid for EDH.
Retired: Lots. More than I feel you should suffer through or I should type out.
TLDR: I think multiplayer player tournaments should not be held in fear of turning new players off. How ever i do strongly support the idea of French EDH is a very appealing to me because it is just a more competitive format.
Now, if there wasn't anything at stake it'd be very enticing for me. Like, everyone gets a promo just for showing up and not being a jackrabbit. Or the prize goes out randomly to anyone who played (possibly with the stipulation that you can't concede...something along those lines).
Stuff to think about, certainly. Though I am a little worried about the prices of certain cards, many are super expensive simply because they're impossible to acquire #reservedlist. It'd be cool if a very small pool of cards were allowed to be proxied hassle free (I'm namely speaking of the alpha duals, and really not much else).
(* - deck tweaking and power-ups are going to happen anyway, there's no denying it. I'm saying people would make their decks super cutthroat simply for the sake of being cutthroat.)
[Semi-Competitive] GWUB "NO" GWUB 89%
Thrasios and Tymna aggro-control voltron-combo
"No machinations, no puppet strings, no plots. Just pure, sweeping death."
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