I found an Italian beseech the queen in my stores uncommon box (for $1 :D)... but I am not actually sure its any better than diabolic tutor, I am a Green black deck that contains Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth (and expedition map) but lots of colourless utility lands so I am not sure how often I'd get the discount. plus the occasional situation where you wont be able to get the card you want.
I try not to (unconditionally) tutor too much I do have one combo but its not instant win, my deck is really a series of synergies, should I switch tutors?, leave as is or try to find a cut for a second tutor (its so hard D:)
I can't afford the expensive ($$$) tutors these two do the job fine anyway.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
For me, it really is going to come down to your style of play. I typically only tutor for cards to deal with threats on the board. I might tutor for a combo (non-infinite combos as I completely despise them) if I have multiple tutors in my hand. In this case, BTQ would be best imo because it costs less and by the time there is something out there you need to deal with, you'll likely have more lands that the CMC of the card that'll deal with it. But if you are a player who wants to tutor for your combo piece so you can go infinite, then you should tear apart your deck entirely and make one without that combo and then throw in BTQ.
Not a fan of BTQ since it reveals the card. People can plan for it unless you're dropping it right away. That said, both of them are pretty far down the list of best tutors imo.
That said, both of them are pretty far down the list of best tutors imo.
Agreed. There are many good black tutors (and tutors in other colors) that neither card makes the cut too often.
If I had to pick one I'd probably go with BTQ in monoblack and Diabolic in multicolor but like I said if I had a choice it would be neither.
I think beseech the queen is simply terrible. not only do you have to wait around/hit your land drops to use it to get a lot of stuff, but you have to reveal the card you search for. Tutors that dont require you to reveal are simply in a class of their own. The best use of beseech the queen is to get a land for three black. gross.
diabolic tutor is an underrated card. I think people have strong aversions to playing any card when there is a strictly better version available, but to be honest 4 mana for an unconditional tutor and you dont have to reveal is still a very powerful effect, especially in this format. If im making a deck that really wants tutors, diabolic tutor is way further up the depth chart than beseech. I think I may actually cut dimir machinations for it in my prossh deck, at least until I can afford a grim tutor.
in my opinion beseech the queen is always worse than diabolic tutor.
diabolic tutor - always searches for any card, there are no restrictions to what card you find. Additionally you do not need to reveal. the drawback is that is always costs 2BB.
beseech the queen - is restricted to what card it can find; sure you can argue that late game it can find anything because your land count is equal to the highest casting cost in your deck; however, if you have reached that point the one additional mana to cast diabolic is probably not meaningful. The only time that beseech the queen is better than diabolic tutor is when you cast it for BBB; however in that instance you are most likely searching for a card with a low mana cost. worse still, you need to reveal what you searched for - no surprises for your opponents.
I also find that two color decks would be casting this for 2BB anyways given a mana base of an average player or the need to use their remaining black mana on the card they are searching for; unless they already have urborg, tomb of yawgmoth in play. so in many instances you would be paying the same casting cost of diabolic tutor, but limited the choices you can target or revealing what you search for when you don't have to.
i really dislike beseech the queen though, i just feel that it's one of the weakest tutors that black has to offer; because 1) you have to reveal, 2) it is outclassed by many other tutors, and 3) to optimize it's cheap usage you either have urborg in play already or you are in mono black.
BTQ has its place, but i prefer it in decks that are primarily black with a splash, OR decks that are mono black. It IS 1 mana cheaper, which can help later, but it reveals the card; so if its an investment into a future turn, you have to be very careful not to select a threatening card, or you will be dealt with before getting a chance to play your tutored for effect. as stated earlier, in the grand scheme of tutors, both are far from idea.
I think beseech the queen is simply terrible. not only do you have to wait around/hit your land drops to use it to get a lot of stuff, but you have to reveal the card you search for. Tutors that dont require you to reveal are simply in a class of their own. The best use of beseech the queen is to get a land for three black. gross.
diabolic tutor is an underrated card. I think people have strong aversions to playing any card when there is a strictly better version available, but to be honest 4 mana for an unconditional tutor and you dont have to reveal is still a very powerful effect, especially in this format. If im making a deck that really wants tutors, diabolic tutor is way further up the depth chart than beseech. I think I may actually cut dimir machinations for it in my prossh deck, at least until I can afford a grim tutor.
Largely I agree with you but there is one sort of deck that likes BtQ almost as much as almost any other tutor; a decently fast combo deck. Usually by T3 you have ramped enough with artifacts that you can cast BtQ for a 3 CMC combo piece (like Laboratory Maniac) while still having enough mana to combo off and maybe have counter protection for that combo.
But those decks still prefer most of the other black tutors. However, in that situation BtQ is better than Diabolic and some of those combo decks run up to 10 tutors, including Diabolic.
I ordered two beseach the queens for my zombie deck mostly because I already have 4 final partings which allow me to throw my grave crawlers into the graveyard and tutor for a card like rooftop storm or sidisi undead vizier, to put into my hand. At that point beseech the queen allows me to go for a 2-3 drop like eternal taskmaster, death baron or lord of the undead faster than a diabolic tutor. Alot of good zombies have low casting cost so I could see beseach the queen as a faster way to get important zombies on the field if you hadn't already hit them by turn 3. I'm replacing my 2 diabolic tutors with beseach the queen, so we'll see how my theory holds up.
i honestly don't like either of them, i find them both to be far too slow and every single color/combination of colors has alternatives i'd rather run. granted those alternatives are either more specific in what they get, or cost a lot of money, but i'd rather run them. depending on the other colors i'll also take things like opt, ponder, faithless looting, regal force, or even night's whisper over these... but then again i'm also in a meta where if you're wasting 4 mana on a tutor you're probably going to be out raced and lose anyway.
Beseech just isn't very good. It's maybe fine in a mono black deck with a low curve, but outside of that it's probably not worth running. Diabolic isn't great either, but can be fine when you're on a budget
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I found an Italian beseech the queen in my stores uncommon box (for $1 :D)... but I am not actually sure its any better than diabolic tutor, I am a Green black deck that contains Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth (and expedition map) but lots of colourless utility lands so I am not sure how often I'd get the discount. plus the occasional situation where you wont be able to get the card you want.
I try not to (unconditionally) tutor too much I do have one combo but its not instant win, my deck is really a series of synergies, should I switch tutors?, leave as is or try to find a cut for a second tutor (its so hard D:)
I can't afford the expensive ($$$) tutors these two do the job fine anyway.
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I'd run BTQ in a deck with a very low curve. The unconditional nature of diabolic is worth the 1 extra mana otherwise.
Well I mostly use creature tutors like birthing pod, fierce empath, beast tracker mostly to go grab wurmcoil A.S.A.P
But I have viridian longbow + thornbite staff + deathtouch creature that I am likely to tutor for. (or avatar of woe)
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
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Agreed. There are many good black tutors (and tutors in other colors) that neither card makes the cut too often.
If I had to pick one I'd probably go with BTQ in monoblack and Diabolic in multicolor but like I said if I had a choice it would be neither.
diabolic tutor is an underrated card. I think people have strong aversions to playing any card when there is a strictly better version available, but to be honest 4 mana for an unconditional tutor and you dont have to reveal is still a very powerful effect, especially in this format. If im making a deck that really wants tutors, diabolic tutor is way further up the depth chart than beseech. I think I may actually cut dimir machinations for it in my prossh deck, at least until I can afford a grim tutor.
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diabolic tutor - always searches for any card, there are no restrictions to what card you find. Additionally you do not need to reveal. the drawback is that is always costs 2BB.
beseech the queen - is restricted to what card it can find; sure you can argue that late game it can find anything because your land count is equal to the highest casting cost in your deck; however, if you have reached that point the one additional mana to cast diabolic is probably not meaningful. The only time that beseech the queen is better than diabolic tutor is when you cast it for BBB; however in that instance you are most likely searching for a card with a low mana cost. worse still, you need to reveal what you searched for - no surprises for your opponents.
I also find that two color decks would be casting this for 2BB anyways given a mana base of an average player or the need to use their remaining black mana on the card they are searching for; unless they already have urborg, tomb of yawgmoth in play. so in many instances you would be paying the same casting cost of diabolic tutor, but limited the choices you can target or revealing what you search for when you don't have to.
i really dislike beseech the queen though, i just feel that it's one of the weakest tutors that black has to offer; because 1) you have to reveal, 2) it is outclassed by many other tutors, and 3) to optimize it's cheap usage you either have urborg in play already or you are in mono black.
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Largely I agree with you but there is one sort of deck that likes BtQ almost as much as almost any other tutor; a decently fast combo deck. Usually by T3 you have ramped enough with artifacts that you can cast BtQ for a 3 CMC combo piece (like Laboratory Maniac) while still having enough mana to combo off and maybe have counter protection for that combo.
But those decks still prefer most of the other black tutors. However, in that situation BtQ is better than Diabolic and some of those combo decks run up to 10 tutors, including Diabolic.
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