Many commanders and cards in general can one shot people. Xenagos + Prossh results in a turn 6 kill of one person, if not faster with mana rocks.
Is that also a problem?
Except for the part where Prossh is a glass cannon. Very much the same as infect.
Who cares if they killed one person? Now they have to deal with 2, maybe more, other players. Other people can steal the Colossus.
I just don't understand why a card with the capability of killing an opponent in one shot is a problem, especially when it doesn't do it on its own. You need haste, they need to have no more than 1 toughness worth of blockers on the field. I mean, come on, you can't really expect a single rule to be changed because of a singular card.
Generally, if the card distorts the appropriateness of the rule so much, the card gets banned. Unless you believe Blightsteel Colossus should be banned, then I don't know what else there is.
Exactly. Plus, they depend on going to combat for the most part (except Nekusar). Combat step is the most dangerous step for win cons. I hear "In response" more during combat phases then any other step.
I don't know...maybe it's my meta but problematic creature rarely get to actually assign combat damage. It's a frail win con.
Honestly, the only two cards that truly scare me when given infect are Nekusar and Niv. Because all they need to do to kill the table is have us draw cards or draw cards themselves. Wheels are a thing. If you run them all in Nekusar or Niv there is a good chance you hit one after casting one. If you resolve both GG.
I use poison as a plan B for my Shirei deck. There's not enough poison to actually change the rule. If anything, we may as well not play poison in the first place.
Infect is a cute, if somewhat a limited alt win con. It's just printed over a bunch of literal garbage when it comes to this format and like 3 good cards. Blightsteel isn't THAT bad, it's a win con and that's what it does. If playing bombs that wins games is a problem then why am I playing this format, or this game for that matter. The equip card is like the best infect card, since it actually makes a good creature better, without costing too much. If people are arguing that Triumph of the Horde is too powerful, I won't disagree, but would like to ask if at the same situation would Overrun have done the exact same thing.
Keeping it at 10 is fine, if you don't like it at 10 start running Leeches or Melira. Thems the breaks. Either that or removal for creatures and artifacts. Last I heard something called Darksteel Mutation is really good against the colossus.
It doesn't seem like this was ever pointed out, but from what I understand infect actually IS different in two-headed giant and it doesn't seem to be a problem. Although there are a few differences between standard multiplayer and 2HG, if you look at it, in 2hg you get 30 life and 15 poison, my playgroup doubles it for edh as 30 life tends to end very quickly. It appears that the same reasoning applied to poison counters in 2hg rules, adjusting required poison counters in an equal ratio with life total adjustments, and I don't remember anyone complaining when that change hit the wild...
Helix Pinnacle is also not hard to use as a Win Con since you can acheive Infinite mana in almost every color (White being the exception).
Of course, you have to have access to green in order to run Helix Pinnacle. And you can generate infinite mana in colorless, so even if a mono-white deck gained control of the Pinnacle it'd be doable.
As far as Infect goes, I have seen: Blightsteel: Super-high mana cost card ending the game... once it attacks several times Skithyrix, the Blight Dragon: Commander eliminating someone... in 3 hits (granted, you could use Skittles in your 99, but I've only ever seen him in the command zone or as Ur-Dragon fodder) Triumph of the Horde: Overrun spell eliminating everyone by having a bunch of creatures Tainted Strike: Combat trick to turn 9+ damage into lethal Grafted Exoskeleton: Voltron it up Inkmoth Nexus: Incidentally has infect; usually included as a cheap, colorless, flying manland
In "regular" decks (that is, a deck not specifically determined to eliminate people via infect, come hell or high water), I cannot recall seeing a single other card with infect being run. Blightsteel and Triumph are things that I would expect to end the game given their investment. Skittles isn't really much scarier than any other combat-focused commander. Inkmoth Nexus isn't generally included for the purpose of eliminating people. That leaves Tainted Strike and Grafted Exoskeleton, both of which have fairly reasonable analogues in other cards (such as Hatred and Nightmare Last/Lashwrithe buffing a single commander/regular creature to lethal damage, for example)
The things which infect can do (essentially: eliminate one or more players with a small number of combat phases), you can achieve similarly or identically with different cards. Additionally, the distinct number of infect cards worth playing is very small. Changing the rules for the mechanic doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
I mean, Slarg is wrong, but some of you are jumping on him as if he hasn't made an argument. He has, clearly, several times. Raising it to 12 wouldn't really hurt infect decks, and would just make blightsteel worse, and blightsteel is mildly problematic. His point is made. Its just that mildly problematic isn't worth the change, even if it doesn't hurt anything else, because this is a format based on mildly problematic cards. Feel free to disagree with his argument, because its wrong, but don't pretend that he hasn't made a well argued point. To do so is just dickish.
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Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
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It doesn't seem like this was ever pointed out, but from what I understand infect actually IS different in two-headed giant and it doesn't seem to be a problem. Although there are a few differences between standard multiplayer and 2HG, if you look at it, in 2hg you get 30 life and 15 poison, my playgroup doubles it for edh as 30 life tends to end very quickly. It appears that the same reasoning applied to poison counters in 2hg rules, adjusting required poison counters in an equal ratio with life total adjustments, and I don't remember anyone complaining when that change hit the wild...
I think that's mainly intended to prevent both heads from running infect from being too stupid. You have double the volume of infect cards all going to the same face, so 10 life would just be too low in that situation. Heck, mono green would be able to keep crappier hands and still win, like each player hits turn 2 with a glistening elf and only 2 pumps each.
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The Meaning of Life: "M-hmm. Well, it's nothing very special. Uh, try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations"
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Whether its blue players countering your spells, red players burning you out, or combo, if you have a problem with an aspect of Magic's gameplay, you can fix it!
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Well if one wants to be specific, 1 poison is literally 4 damage.
Not exactly. The only thing that undoes poison is Leeches. Infect creatures are like a whole bunch of Stigma Lashers. Additionally, it's only 4 damage from the person using poison. To everyone else it's no damage.
My main deal with poison is the limited counterplay. As soon as something makes contact with you, the inevitability of proliferate comes into play.
Well if one wants to be specific, 1 poison is literally 4 damage.
Not exactly. The only thing that undoes poison is Leeches. Infect creatures are like a whole bunch of Stigma Lashers. Additionally, it's only 4 damage from the person using poison. To everyone else it's no damage.
My main deal with poison is the limited counterplay. As soon as something makes contact with you, the inevitability of proliferate comes into play.
That's a way to win, I guess. It works for Ghave or Animar or Marath infect, I'm sure. (Though Ghave or Marath could just pile up +1/+1 counters on dudes who aren't blocked. Or put a +1/+1 counter on Hydra Omnivore, attack a dude who doesn't have a creature, and cast Tainted Strike. Marath can do all that, and exploit Doubling Season and friends to boost himself to where he can just ping you for 10 and that's all she wrote. And Animar would just cast Blightsteel Colossus.)
I could go on, but proliferate is generally not the problem when facing an infect deck, and never was, really.
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Card advantage is not the same thing as card draw. Something for 2B cannot be strictly worse than something for BBB or 3BB. If you're taking out Swords to Plowshares for Plummet, you're a fool. Stop doing these things!
It doesn't seem like this was ever pointed out, but from what I understand infect actually IS different in two-headed giant and it doesn't seem to be a problem. Although there are a few differences between standard multiplayer and 2HG, if you look at it, in 2hg you get 30 life and 15 poison, my playgroup doubles it for edh as 30 life tends to end very quickly. It appears that the same reasoning applied to poison counters in 2hg rules, adjusting required poison counters in an equal ratio with life total adjustments, and I don't remember anyone complaining when that change hit the wild...
I think that's mainly intended to prevent both heads from running infect from being too stupid. You have double the volume of infect cards all going to the same face, so 10 life would just be too low in that situation. Heck, mono green would be able to keep crappier hands and still win, like each player hits turn 2 with a glistening elf and only 2 pumps each.
I don't see how a similar arguement could not be applied to edh, since it's a mostly multiplayer format intended to go past turn 6 on most occasions. I'm not actually arguing for a change. Infect in my playgroup is a side wincon for any decks that run it, unless it's an artifact deck intending to trick bc out asap.
Also, the best 2hg griup I've ever seen did not run two infect decks. That would be silly. It was one b/g infect, one g/u pump/control magic running artful dodge. They did not care that they had to do 15.
One shotting with inkmoth. Sounds like something i have done. I built a BUG Mimeoplasm Infect deck and it worked very well. It was one of my few decks that did not depend on my general, and it worked well with pumps.
The thing is wen it comes to infect the card pool is small, and most are weak anyway. You have to decide if it is worth it to raise the infect, First calculate how much damage you do on average per shot. If you are hotting for 3 well then 10 is fine. if you are like me and hotting for 6-7 per shot, well maybe 15 is better for balancing issues. My group never really took an issue with me, but they might have had one, I do not know. I also did play a group that raised infect to 15. It was discussed beforehand and I agreed to it.
Infect isn't really strong enough as a whole for any nerf to be worthwhile. If the point is to specifically nerf Blightsteel Colossus, then just do that. Errata'ing or banning 1 card would be a much simpler fix than changing the infect threshold, all things considered.
Well if one wants to be specific, 1 poison is literally 4 damage.
Not exactly. The only thing that undoes poison is Leeches. Infect creatures are like a whole bunch of Stigma Lashers. Additionally, it's only 4 damage from the person using poison. To everyone else it's no damage.
My main deal with poison is the limited counterplay. As soon as something makes contact with you, the inevitability of proliferate comes into play.
That's a way to win, I guess. It works for Ghave or Animar or Marath infect, I'm sure. (Though Ghave or Marath could just pile up +1/+1 counters on dudes who aren't blocked. Or put a +1/+1 counter on Hydra Omnivore, attack a dude who doesn't have a creature, and cast Tainted Strike. Marath can do all that, and exploit Doubling Season and friends to boost himself to where he can just ping you for 10 and that's all she wrote. And Animar would just cast Blightsteel Colossus.)
I could go on, but proliferate is generally not the problem when facing an infect deck, and never was, really.
Yeah, that was just one example, I was being lazy. The main idea behind my argument is that infect operated on a different axis than the usual life total one. It's similar to mill, except there is no real way to undo it. All interaction must be preventive, which means it will inevitably get through (given an even game).
Soooo question about the "its hard to get 10+ infect counters" bit. I run a Nekusar, the Mindrazer deck. I played Phyresison him and then playedWindfall with 8 cards in hand. Each player then died by each of their next turns because they had to draw 2 cards. 8+2 = 10 pretty much instant win... now my friends wont play with infect in EDH unless its 20 points to kill a player... you guys still think its hard? or are they over reacting to not having any answers by the next 9 cards they drew?
Exactly. Plus, they depend on going to combat for the most part (except Nekusar). Combat step is the most dangerous step for win cons. I hear "In response" more during combat phases then any other step.
You swing at me with 50 1/1 goblins? In response I overload Electrickery. You swing at me with Avacyn or 50/50 Omnath? Snap. Into the Roil. That goblin horde is 2/2 now? Overload Cyclonic Rift. Avacyn is pro blue now? Swords to Plowshares.
I don't know...maybe it's my meta but problematic creature rarely get to actually assign combat damage. It's a frail win con.
Honestly, the only two cards that truly scare me when given infect are Nekusar and Niv. Because all they need to do to kill the table is have us draw cards or draw cards themselves. Wheels are a thing. If you run them all in Nekusar or Niv there is a good chance you hit one after casting one. If you resolve both GG.
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Keeping it at 10 is fine, if you don't like it at 10 start running Leeches or Melira. Thems the breaks. Either that or removal for creatures and artifacts. Last I heard something called Darksteel Mutation is really good against the colossus.
:symr::symb: I hate your deck(Kaervek the Merciless)
Wait, how do I even hide it as a name title?
Kemba, Kostume
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As far as Infect goes, I have seen:
Blightsteel: Super-high mana cost card ending the game... once it attacks several times
Skithyrix, the Blight Dragon: Commander eliminating someone... in 3 hits (granted, you could use Skittles in your 99, but I've only ever seen him in the command zone or as Ur-Dragon fodder)
Triumph of the Horde: Overrun spell eliminating everyone by having a bunch of creatures
Tainted Strike: Combat trick to turn 9+ damage into lethal
Grafted Exoskeleton: Voltron it up
Inkmoth Nexus: Incidentally has infect; usually included as a cheap, colorless, flying manland
In "regular" decks (that is, a deck not specifically determined to eliminate people via infect, come hell or high water), I cannot recall seeing a single other card with infect being run. Blightsteel and Triumph are things that I would expect to end the game given their investment. Skittles isn't really much scarier than any other combat-focused commander. Inkmoth Nexus isn't generally included for the purpose of eliminating people. That leaves Tainted Strike and Grafted Exoskeleton, both of which have fairly reasonable analogues in other cards (such as Hatred and Nightmare Last/Lashwrithe buffing a single commander/regular creature to lethal damage, for example)
The things which infect can do (essentially: eliminate one or more players with a small number of combat phases), you can achieve similarly or identically with different cards. Additionally, the distinct number of infect cards worth playing is very small. Changing the rules for the mechanic doesn't seem worthwhile to me.
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UR Melek, Izzet ParagonUR, B Shirei, Shizo's CaretakerB, R Jaya Ballard, Task MageR,RW Tajic, Blade of the LegionRW, UB Lazav, Dimir MastermindUB, UB Circu, Dimir LobotomistUB, RWU Zedruu the GreatheartedRWU, GUBThe MimeoplasmGUB, UGExperiment Kraj UG, WDarien, King of KjeldorW, BMarrow-GnawerB, WBGKarador, Ghost ChieftainWBG, UTeferi, Temporal ArchmageU, GWUDerevi, Empyrial TacticianGWU, RDaretti, Scrap SavantR, UTalrand, Sky SummonerU, GEzuri, Renegade LeaderG, WUBRGReaper KingWUBRG, RGXenagos, God of RevelsRG, CKozilek, Butcher of TruthC, WUBRGGeneral TazriWUBRG, GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
I think that's mainly intended to prevent both heads from running infect from being too stupid. You have double the volume of infect cards all going to the same face, so 10 life would just be too low in that situation. Heck, mono green would be able to keep crappier hands and still win, like each player hits turn 2 with a glistening elf and only 2 pumps each.
Onering's 4 simple steps that let you solve any problem with Magic's gameplay
Step 1: Identify the problem. What aspect of Magic don't you like? Step 2: Find out how others deal with the problem. How do players deal with this aspect of the game when they run into it? Step 3: Do what those players do. Step 4: No more problem. Bonus: You are now better at Magic. Enjoy those extra wins!
Not exactly. The only thing that undoes poison is Leeches. Infect creatures are like a whole bunch of Stigma Lashers. Additionally, it's only 4 damage from the person using poison. To everyone else it's no damage.
My main deal with poison is the limited counterplay. As soon as something makes contact with you, the inevitability of proliferate comes into play.
That's a way to win, I guess. It works for Ghave or Animar or Marath infect, I'm sure. (Though Ghave or Marath could just pile up +1/+1 counters on dudes who aren't blocked. Or put a +1/+1 counter on Hydra Omnivore, attack a dude who doesn't have a creature, and cast Tainted Strike. Marath can do all that, and exploit Doubling Season and friends to boost himself to where he can just ping you for 10 and that's all she wrote. And Animar would just cast Blightsteel Colossus.)
Doran just uses Slagwurm Armor with Priests of Norn, Tangle Angler, or Blightwidow.
Rafiq will just give +3/+X to Blighted Agent.
Prossh would just cast Phyresis on Purphoros, God of the Forge.
Nekusar would just run Forced Fruition, Prosperity, Reforge the Soul, Seizan, Perverter of Truth...you get the idea. Preferably with Dictate of the Twin Gods and Furnace of Rath.
I could go on, but proliferate is generally not the problem when facing an infect deck, and never was, really.
On phasing:
I don't see how a similar arguement could not be applied to edh, since it's a mostly multiplayer format intended to go past turn 6 on most occasions. I'm not actually arguing for a change. Infect in my playgroup is a side wincon for any decks that run it, unless it's an artifact deck intending to trick bc out asap.
Also, the best 2hg griup I've ever seen did not run two infect decks. That would be silly. It was one b/g infect, one g/u pump/control magic running artful dodge. They did not care that they had to do 15.
Edit: too many quote tags, oh god.
The thing is wen it comes to infect the card pool is small, and most are weak anyway. You have to decide if it is worth it to raise the infect, First calculate how much damage you do on average per shot. If you are hotting for 3 well then 10 is fine. if you are like me and hotting for 6-7 per shot, well maybe 15 is better for balancing issues. My group never really took an issue with me, but they might have had one, I do not know. I also did play a group that raised infect to 15. It was discussed beforehand and I agreed to it.
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Yeah, that was just one example, I was being lazy. The main idea behind my argument is that infect operated on a different axis than the usual life total one. It's similar to mill, except there is no real way to undo it. All interaction must be preventive, which means it will inevitably get through (given an even game).
Fairly old thread, so I'm locking it. Feel free to create a new thread if you'd like to continue discussing the topic.
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