I have recently been building a Vhati Il-Dal EDH deck, and have been using poison as a win condition. Some of my friends have been getting angry that I am one shotting them with Inkmoth nexus, and feel the Poison limit should be 15 rather than the standard 10. what are your thoughts on what it should be In EDH?
Does anyone run Ghost Quarter, Krosan Grip, or any other spot removal that destroys lands, creatures, or artifacts? They shouldn't be getting angry.
Infect is fine at 10. Board wipes, counterspells, and spot removal should all be precautions taken at least to some degree in EDH. Infect is just one valid form of aggro.
Ten infect is pretty reasonable. Just because its infect doesn't mean you can't be creative with it. G/B wil also give you a nice control shell to back up your infect dudes. Don't forget Triumph of the Horde as an alternative win con. That card is easily my favorite pump spell of all time.
I'm going to be the odd ball and say infect should be 12, not 10 or 15; to a dedicated Infect deck, getting the extra 2 counters isn't too hard to get through, what with Proliferate or similar.
It may not seem like much but 15 is huge I've played with Infect at 10, 15, and 20....and beyond 10 you might as well be playing mill or burn, because that's how slow and grindy it feels. At 15 or higher you give enough time for the Infect player to taken out without ever being a threat. At 10 the Infect player should only ever eliminate 1 other player before being done in himself, because well you know what hes playing from the moment the first Poison counter hits.
Blightsteel is another issue, honestly if hes a huge issue consider a house ban on it rather than nerfing the whole strategy.
I'm going to be the odd ball and say infect should be 12, not 10 or 15; to a dedicated Infect deck, getting the extra 2 counters isn't too hard to get through, what with Proliferate or similar.
And yet Emrakul is banned and Blightseel isn't. At the end of the day, Blightsteel is just one of many cards that can end a game. It even does it one player at a time while giving plenty of time for responses. Increasing the infect count by any number changes everything about the mechanic. This seems to be another case of "having an idea without thinking fully of the ramifications or testing". It's easy to say things.
Edit: And even if Blightsteel were a problem that would be an issue with a single card, not the infect mechanic as a whole.
I'm going to be the odd ball and say infect should be 12, not 10 or 15; to a dedicated Infect deck, getting the extra 2 counters isn't too hard to get through, what with Proliferate or similar.
And yet Emrakul is banned and Blightseel isn't. At the end of the day, Blightsteel is just one of many cards that can end a game. It even does it one player at a time while giving plenty of time for responses. Increasing the infect count by any number changes everything about the mechanic. This seems to be another case of "having an idea without thinking fully of the ramifications or testing". It's easy to say things.
Edit: And even if Blightsteel were a problem that would be an issue with a single card, not the infect mechanic as a whole.
Emrakul only ever attacked one person at a time as well; and with Annihilator 6 that person was also pretty much out of the game.
"Emrakul can't be targeted by colored spells!", Yeah, but he can be killed via Boardwipe.
"Blightsteel can be killed with a targeted exile!", Yeah, but he can't be killed via boardwipe.
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I'm going to be the odd ball and say infect should be 12, not 10 or 15; to a dedicated Infect deck, getting the extra 2 counters isn't too hard to get through, what with Proliferate or similar.
And yet Emrakul is banned and Blightseel isn't. At the end of the day, Blightsteel is just one of many cards that can end a game. It even does it one player at a time while giving plenty of time for responses. Increasing the infect count by any number changes everything about the mechanic. This seems to be another case of "having an idea without thinking fully of the ramifications or testing". It's easy to say things.
Edit: And even if Blightsteel were a problem that would be an issue with a single card, not the infect mechanic as a whole.
Emrakul only ever attacked one person at a time as well; and with Annihilator 6 that person was also pretty much out of the game.
"Emrakul can't be targeted by colored spells!", Yeah, but he can be killed via Boardwipe.
"Blightsteel can be killed with a targeted exile!", Yeah, but he can't be killed via boardwipe.
What?
1. Can't be targeted by colored spells is better than indestructible. Blightsteel dies to plenty of board wipes.
2. Evasion (although this is most of the time a nonissue)
3. Time walk
5. Annihilator is a permanent thing, if Blightsteel is blocked and removed he has done nothing unless you run more infect (which most decks using blightseetl probably aren't using).
4. Have you ever played with either card before making incorrect comparisons?
I'm not trying to be mean, but do you think about/have evidence for any of your statements before you make them? This seems to be a common thing.
I'm going to be the odd ball and say infect should be 12, not 10 or 15; to a dedicated Infect deck, getting the extra 2 counters isn't too hard to get through, what with Proliferate or similar.
And yet Emrakul is banned and Blightseel isn't. At the end of the day, Blightsteel is just one of many cards that can end a game. It even does it one player at a time while giving plenty of time for responses. Increasing the infect count by any number changes everything about the mechanic. This seems to be another case of "having an idea without thinking fully of the ramifications or testing". It's easy to say things.
Edit: And even if Blightsteel were a problem that would be an issue with a single card, not the infect mechanic as a whole.
Emrakul only ever attacked one person at a time as well; and with Annihilator 6 that person was also pretty much out of the game.
"Emrakul can't be targeted by colored spells!", Yeah, but he can be killed via Boardwipe.
"Blightsteel can be killed with a targeted exile!", Yeah, but he can't be killed via boardwipe.
What?
1. Can't be targeted by colored spells is better than indestructible. Blightsteel dies to plenty of board wipes.
2. Evasion (although this is most of the time a nonissue)
3. Time walk
5. Annihilator is a permanent thing, if Blightsteel is blocked and removed he has done nothing unless you run more infect (which most decks using blightseetl probably aren't using).
4. Have you ever played with either card before making incorrect comparisons?
I'm not trying to be mean, but do you think about/have evidence for any of your statements before you make them? This seems to be a common thing.
1. Still dies to most of the common colored removal, be it Toxic Deluge, Sudden Spoiling, Black Sun's Zenith or similar.
2. Trample is a form of Evasion, which the Blightsteel has.
3. Stranglehold, Time Stop, among others. Cards like that go into decks regardless.
5. What permanents stay permanently (in the permanently permanent) graveyard if you don't want them to? Crucible of Worlds is a format staple, so every deck has an excuse to get their lands back, and that's not going into how many Graveyard based EDH decks there are (Anything GB, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, I could go on).
4. I may or may not have had a copy that I recently traded to get a two Snapcaster Mages.
Emrakul is a powerful powerful card, and can end the game quickly, but taking one swing from Emi to the face puts you majorly behind. One swing from Blightsteel to the face puts you dead.
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Emrakul is a powerful powerful card, and can end the game quickly, but taking one swing from Emi to the face puts you majorly behind. One swing from Blightsteel to the face puts you dead.
On the flip side, that's asking for an entire mechanic to be nerfed, rather than house rule that one card. I've run Varolz, the Scar-Striped infect, and while two may not seem like much, it can Determine how many people you're able to take out before the table either cripples you or kills you.
from personal experience where i allowed my buddy to play emmy in a deck, I can say he has been slightly harder to deal with. I guess it depends on the meta but I always seemed able to deal with blightsteel, rarely able to deal with emmy.
Emrakul is a powerful powerful card, and can end the game quickly, but taking one swing from Emi to the face puts you majorly behind. One swing from Blightsteel to the face puts you dead.
On the flip side, that's asking for an entire mechanic to be nerfed, rather than house rule that one card. I've run Varolz, the Scar-Striped infect, and while two may not seem like much, it can Determine how many people you're able to take out before the table either cripples you or kills you.
It's not so much as asking for an entire mechanic to be nerfed (As lots of people want to push it all the way up to 15), as it is bringing one card more in line.
I'm just saying that, let's not push it up to 15, let's just push it up to 12 so Blightsteel isn't so bad but Infect as a whole is mostly untouched.
Edit: As it is, Infect doesn't have a lot of tools given to them. If we ever see a Ravnica Beseiged or similar, where we get 50 or so new Infect cards, I would be fully willing to back up a increased Infect cap. But as it is, the only real card that Infect has that needs to be nerfed is Blightsteel, the mechanic is fine due to how few cards actually have it.
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You've yet to give a reason why infect needs to be brought "in line" at all. There is no need to touch the mechanic in any way with the current card pool. Unless you have new and compelling evidence or thoughts beyond "change it because a small subset of people are complaining".
As I said before, it's easy to say things. Proving them is another matter.
You've yet to give a reason why infect needs to be brought "in line" at all. There is no need to touch the mechanic in any way with the current card pool. Unless you have new and compelling evidence or thoughts beyond "change it because a small subset of people are complaining".
As I said before, it's easy to say things. Proving them is another matter.
On the flip side, you've yet to say any reason why it doesn't.
Oddly enough, if you read my post, I haven't been talking about Infect. I've been talking about Blightsteel Colossus.
Glissa, the Traitor EDH can very easily recur it's Infect cards, as both BG can easily pull cards from the graveyard, and Glissa returns all the Infectious Artifacts, all a higher cap does to her Infect is force you to play a tiny bit more conservatively.
Marchesa, the Black Rose Infect decks just don't care, since without a Exile effect all of her Infect creatures are just getting bigger and bigger and keep coming back for more. And since you aren't actually hitting their life total, Dethrone never stops triggering. Dealing 12 damage isn't that much harder than dealing 10 when your force comes back over, and over, and Over, and OVER, AND OVER. Not to mention she has Red, perfect for giving all of your creatures haste.
So how does a 12 cap over 10 hurt ANYTHING but Blightsteel Colossus again?
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We played with 20 poison counter from the begining, and it totally fine for us.
Infect mecanics as well as lots of cards like Sorin or serra ascendant were made with a starting life total of 20 in mind, not 40...
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I also have a Vhati infect deck that I've run for some time now. My play group knows exactly what it is and typically hates me out ASAP, but no one has ever complained about the poison limit being too low. Even if I have nothing on the board they know I can drop just about anything and Berserk or Hatred it for the win. If they consider you such a threat, it's on them to take care of it. Complaining about a single powerful card is one thing, but denouncing a particular play style or alternate win condition they don't subscribe to and declaring it unfit for play in their group or in need of modification or reservation is petty in my opinion.
Emrakul is a powerful powerful card, and can end the game quickly, but taking one swing from Emi to the face puts you majorly behind. One swing from Blightsteel to the face puts you dead.
Unless, of course, you have a blocker with two toughness. That's... really all it takes. Granted, the next swing will probably kill you, but that's coming after Blightsteel makes it a round around the table.
You've yet to give a reason why infect needs to be brought "in line" at all. There is no need to touch the mechanic in any way with the current card pool. Unless you have new and compelling evidence or thoughts beyond "change it because a small subset of people are complaining".
As I said before, it's easy to say things. Proving them is another matter.
On the flip side, you've yet to say any reason why it doesn't.
So how does a 12 cap over 10 hurt ANYTHING but Blightsteel Colossus again?
Ok, first thing we need to get out of the way is that burden of proof is on you for making a claim (infect should be 12). We can't have a conversation if you're not going to play by the rules of a discussion. You've yet to give a single reason why beyond "Blightsteel colossus makes some people sad".
Second. Any change to the infect rules changes how most infect decks play. It means an extra turn for Skittles to kill. It means infect dorks are harder to use. It has an effect on every card with the mechanic except for people using it as a "combo" tactic (Tainted Strike/Infect overrun). You don't change a mechanic for one card.
And seriously, my first point matters way more than the second.
You've yet to give a reason why infect needs to be brought "in line" at all. There is no need to touch the mechanic in any way with the current card pool. Unless you have new and compelling evidence or thoughts beyond "change it because a small subset of people are complaining".
As I said before, it's easy to say things. Proving them is another matter.
On the flip side, you've yet to say any reason why it doesn't.
So how does a 12 cap over 10 hurt ANYTHING but Blightsteel Colossus again?
Ok, first thing we need to get out of the way is that burden of proof is on you for making a claim (infect should be 12). We can't have a conversation if you're not going to play by the rules of a discussion. You've yet to give a single reason why beyond "Blightsteel colossus makes some people sad".
Second. Any change to the infect rules changes how most infect decks play. It means an extra turn for Skittles to kill. It means infect dorks are harder to use. It has an effect on every card with the mechanic except for people using it as a "combo" tactic (Tainted Strike/Infect overrun). You don't change a mechanic for one card.
And seriously, my first point matters way more than the second.
"Rules" of a discussion only work if both sides are willing to put forth an argument. I have put forth mine (That any hard core Infect deck doesn't care if the count is 10-12), but where is yours?
My Argument thus far: Infect could change to 12 to nerf the one problem card and three different Infect Decks would be no different.
Your argument thus far: This one infect deck needs 3 hits to kill, which it still needs to kill at 10.
Skittles already takes 3 hits basic to hit; 4 the first time, 8 the second, 12 (DING DING DING!) the third. Or are you refering to pumping him up with other abilities to increase his power? Because I fail to see how that's any different from Varolz + Infect Dude + Death's Shadow, which I have already shown can easily still OHKO despite the cap being increased to 12.
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: Power 4 Infect, not going to two shot anyone without a pump. If you can give it +1/+0, you can just as easily give it +2/+0.
So where is my lack of an argument?
Infect 10: Blightsteel one hits people, Skittles needs a pump, every other infect deck EVAR can one shot you/get you dead really quick.
Infect 12: Blightsteel no longer one hits people, Skittles needs a pump, every other infect deck EVAR can one shot you/get you dead really quick.
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You've yet to give a reason why infect needs to be brought "in line" at all. There is no need to touch the mechanic in any way with the current card pool. Unless you have new and compelling evidence or thoughts beyond "change it because a small subset of people are complaining".
As I said before, it's easy to say things. Proving them is another matter.
On the flip side, you've yet to say any reason why it doesn't.
So how does a 12 cap over 10 hurt ANYTHING but Blightsteel Colossus again?
Ok, first thing we need to get out of the way is that burden of proof is on you for making a claim (infect should be 12). We can't have a conversation if you're not going to play by the rules of a discussion. You've yet to give a single reason why beyond "Blightsteel colossus makes some people sad".
Second. Any change to the infect rules changes how most infect decks play. It means an extra turn for Skittles to kill. It means infect dorks are harder to use. It has an effect on every card with the mechanic except for people using it as a "combo" tactic (Tainted Strike/Infect overrun). You don't change a mechanic for one card.
And seriously, my first point matters way more than the second.
"Rules" of a discussion only work if both sides are willing to put forth an argument. I have put forth mine (That any hard core Infect deck doesn't care if the count is 10-12), but where is yours?
My Argument thus far: Infect could change to 12 to nerf the one problem card and three different Infect Decks would be no different.
Your argument thus far: This one infect deck needs 3 hits to kill, which it still needs to kill at 10.
Skittles already takes 3 hits basic to hit; 4 the first time, 8 the second, 12 (DING DING DING!) the third. Or are you refering to pumping him up with other abilities to increase his power? Because I fail to see how that's any different from Varolz + Infect Dude + Death's Shadow, which I have already shown can easily still OHKO despite the cap being increased to 12.
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: Power 4 Infect, not going to two shot anyone without a pump. If you can give it +1/+0, you can just as easily give it +2/+0.
So where is my lack of an argument?
Infect 10: Blightsteel one hits people, Skittles needs a pump, every other infect deck EVAR can one shot you/get you dead really quick.
Infect 12: Blightsteel no longer one hits people, Skittles needs a pump, every other infect deck EVAR can one shot you/get you dead really quick.
For 12 mana he should one shot people. This is EDH. Crazy stuff happens. Deal with it or have your playgroup house ban the card or raise the infect level.
We've had this discussion on these forums dozens of times in just the past 6 months. The result is infect is fine at 10.
[EDH] It's built to be a casual format and to a specific vision, and if you don't like the vision, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not going to change to accommodate everyone. Big tent is not a goal.
It should be kept at 10. If they don't like getting one-shot by one of the half-dozen infect cards worth playing, maybe they should try running some removal, and being prepared when they see Inkmoth Nexus hit the table. Seriously, infect is such a hard deck to win with in a multiplayer game as it is, there's absolutely no need to cripple it further.
Now, if you're talking 1v1, maybe you have a point. But not in multiplayer.
Infect is fine at 10. Board wipes, counterspells, and spot removal should all be precautions taken at least to some degree in EDH. Infect is just one valid form of aggro.
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But it would be nice if Blightsteel colossus wasn't a one shot one kill. Not even Emrakul, the Aeons Torn was that bad.
Blightsteel is another issue, honestly if hes a huge issue consider a house ban on it rather than nerfing the whole strategy.
And yet Emrakul is banned and Blightseel isn't. At the end of the day, Blightsteel is just one of many cards that can end a game. It even does it one player at a time while giving plenty of time for responses. Increasing the infect count by any number changes everything about the mechanic. This seems to be another case of "having an idea without thinking fully of the ramifications or testing". It's easy to say things.
Edit: And even if Blightsteel were a problem that would be an issue with a single card, not the infect mechanic as a whole.
Emrakul only ever attacked one person at a time as well; and with Annihilator 6 that person was also pretty much out of the game.
"Emrakul can't be targeted by colored spells!", Yeah, but he can be killed via Boardwipe.
"Blightsteel can be killed with a targeted exile!", Yeah, but he can't be killed via boardwipe.
What?
1. Can't be targeted by colored spells is better than indestructible. Blightsteel dies to plenty of board wipes.
2. Evasion (although this is most of the time a nonissue)
3. Time walk
5. Annihilator is a permanent thing, if Blightsteel is blocked and removed he has done nothing unless you run more infect (which most decks using blightseetl probably aren't using).
4. Have you ever played with either card before making incorrect comparisons?
I'm not trying to be mean, but do you think about/have evidence for any of your statements before you make them? This seems to be a common thing.
1. Still dies to most of the common colored removal, be it Toxic Deluge, Sudden Spoiling, Black Sun's Zenith or similar.
2. Trample is a form of Evasion, which the Blightsteel has.
3. Stranglehold, Time Stop, among others. Cards like that go into decks regardless.
5. What permanents stay permanently (in the permanently permanent) graveyard if you don't want them to? Crucible of Worlds is a format staple, so every deck has an excuse to get their lands back, and that's not going into how many Graveyard based EDH decks there are (Anything GB, Bruna, Light of Alabaster, I could go on).
4. I may or may not have had a copy that I recently traded to get a two Snapcaster Mages.
Emrakul is a powerful powerful card, and can end the game quickly, but taking one swing from Emi to the face puts you majorly behind. One swing from Blightsteel to the face puts you dead.
On the flip side, that's asking for an entire mechanic to be nerfed, rather than house rule that one card. I've run Varolz, the Scar-Striped infect, and while two may not seem like much, it can Determine how many people you're able to take out before the table either cripples you or kills you.
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It's not so much as asking for an entire mechanic to be nerfed (As lots of people want to push it all the way up to 15), as it is bringing one card more in line.
I'm just saying that, let's not push it up to 15, let's just push it up to 12 so Blightsteel isn't so bad but Infect as a whole is mostly untouched.
Edit: As it is, Infect doesn't have a lot of tools given to them. If we ever see a Ravnica Beseiged or similar, where we get 50 or so new Infect cards, I would be fully willing to back up a increased Infect cap. But as it is, the only real card that Infect has that needs to be nerfed is Blightsteel, the mechanic is fine due to how few cards actually have it.
As I said before, it's easy to say things. Proving them is another matter.
On the flip side, you've yet to say any reason why it doesn't.
Oddly enough, if you read my post, I haven't been talking about Infect. I've been talking about Blightsteel Colossus.
A Varolz, the Scar Striped infect edh wouldn't be affected by raising the infect bar to 12; Inkmoth Nexus + Varolz + Phyrexian Juggernaught/Death's Shadow can still easily kill someone in one hit, even if it's 10 or 12.
Glissa, the Traitor EDH can very easily recur it's Infect cards, as both BG can easily pull cards from the graveyard, and Glissa returns all the Infectious Artifacts, all a higher cap does to her Infect is force you to play a tiny bit more conservatively.
Marchesa, the Black Rose Infect decks just don't care, since without a Exile effect all of her Infect creatures are just getting bigger and bigger and keep coming back for more. And since you aren't actually hitting their life total, Dethrone never stops triggering. Dealing 12 damage isn't that much harder than dealing 10 when your force comes back over, and over, and Over, and OVER, AND OVER. Not to mention she has Red, perfect for giving all of your creatures haste.
So how does a 12 cap over 10 hurt ANYTHING but Blightsteel Colossus again?
Infect mecanics as well as lots of cards like Sorin or serra ascendant were made with a starting life total of 20 in mind, not 40...
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Ok, first thing we need to get out of the way is that burden of proof is on you for making a claim (infect should be 12). We can't have a conversation if you're not going to play by the rules of a discussion. You've yet to give a single reason why beyond "Blightsteel colossus makes some people sad".
Second. Any change to the infect rules changes how most infect decks play. It means an extra turn for Skittles to kill. It means infect dorks are harder to use. It has an effect on every card with the mechanic except for people using it as a "combo" tactic (Tainted Strike/Infect overrun). You don't change a mechanic for one card.
And seriously, my first point matters way more than the second.
"Rules" of a discussion only work if both sides are willing to put forth an argument. I have put forth mine (That any hard core Infect deck doesn't care if the count is 10-12), but where is yours?
My Argument thus far: Infect could change to 12 to nerf the one problem card and three different Infect Decks would be no different.
Your argument thus far: This one infect deck needs 3 hits to kill, which it still needs to kill at 10.
Skittles already takes 3 hits basic to hit; 4 the first time, 8 the second, 12 (DING DING DING!) the third. Or are you refering to pumping him up with other abilities to increase his power? Because I fail to see how that's any different from Varolz + Infect Dude + Death's Shadow, which I have already shown can easily still OHKO despite the cap being increased to 12.
Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon: Power 4 Infect, not going to two shot anyone without a pump. If you can give it +1/+0, you can just as easily give it +2/+0.
So where is my lack of an argument?
Infect 10: Blightsteel one hits people, Skittles needs a pump, every other infect deck EVAR can one shot you/get you dead really quick.
Infect 12: Blightsteel no longer one hits people, Skittles needs a pump, every other infect deck EVAR can one shot you/get you dead really quick.
For 12 mana he should one shot people. This is EDH. Crazy stuff happens. Deal with it or have your playgroup house ban the card or raise the infect level.
We've had this discussion on these forums dozens of times in just the past 6 months. The result is infect is fine at 10.
Now, if you're talking 1v1, maybe you have a point. But not in multiplayer.