Um a comboless Azami is much much more painful than a normal combo one. Comboless doesn't make the deck any weaker, you control the board just as good if not better (since you got freeslots from taking out combos), you just have to grind the game out. Which turns into a painfully long and boring game.
I'm not super familiar with Azami, but I'd say in general combo is stronger in multiplayer and control is stronger in 1v1. In multiplayer you have to carefully use your resources since there are multiple people that are potential threats. The guy who is not doing anything could just be a bad player or he could be waiting for a combo to combo out when everyone else is tapped. In 1v1 you spend all of your resources on your opponent since you only have 1 enemy, which makes sneaking out a combo much harder. A comboless Azami can work in muliplayer, but it'll be hard since Azami has a reputation of being a competitive general. It's hard to control a table when everyone is trying to kill you.
Hello : ). I've been told im the "head" of our edh group, but i don't think i am.
Anywho, we have a meta of 8-16 players each week. We got one group of players that are more cutthroat, and then there's one group that's more of a casual group. I can play in both of them, but i prefer the casual when i just want to sit down and talk alot haha, since politics seems more crucial there, because it usually isn't a race to an infinite combo/ one player sitting down and taking a turn for 20 mins.
We do have Mono blue all counterspells decks etc, it's cool and all. We're trying to keep the armageddon effects at a minimum, but ofc it happens. I do run infinites, but i don't always go for them, but others just sees that they got one and they end the game, often the rest of the players continue playing if someone infinites.
We have no real bans, except keep the armageddon effects at a minimum. World gorger dragon and similar combos appeared quite often before.
So this red player did WorldGorger Dragon through an Zirilian activation, in response to his Apocalypse, combo to exile everybodys permanents, and save his owns, so i killed his dragon in response to the trigger, exiling everything he had aswell.
And then he thought we would reset the game, but i made the group keep playing this time and showed them that this route is not the most entertaining one.
So the Zirilian player took out the dragon combo and Apocalypse, and to me it looks like he has alot more fun now.
My Karn deck has quite alot of landdestruction, but i only result to it when i really need it. Yes it's a combo deck, but i removed a few combos and the stax part.
Sorry for the rambling.
THING IS, if we didn't have coutnerspells and the like, alot of Mayael players would take over the games all the time, it's rediculous how fast they can be.
I wish there was a 1v1 league where I'm at. It would make things a lot more interesting and fun, especially when it should be totally expected that you bring your A game.
1 store nearby started it but used the multiplayer rules for 1v1. Yea....nothing better than a turn 2 Bribery for an eldrazi.
Me and a couple friends tried forever to get the LGS we frequent most to have 1v1 tourneys. Finally they decided to give it a try but insisted on the mp ban list. People felt the French list was too "restrictive", which makes no sense given it's about the same number of cards, but anyway. Myself, I was just... but Hermit Druid... The didn't listen and the first week a regular brings his HD deck and face rolls with me and my friend who pushed for the tourney coming in second (Zur) and third (Jenara) respectively. The other fifteen or so people brought decks that I wouldn't even consider tuned for mp. Result? Everyone says 1v1 EDH is "stupid" and we didn't get a second week.
Just out ramp/draw them, win thought non infinite spell casts. Do it so bad they gotta start packing answers. Once they do, the other decks will be less bad.
That or they'll keep you from winning next time by banning non creatures.
@ How to win with Azami without going infinite - Diviner's Wand and/or Emperial Plate on Azami + some wizards and you can quickly kill people with commander damage. Throw in a couple of time spells + snapcaster mage / archaeomancer and you can probably kill the table.
I hate people who play rules committee. I once played at a store that added two turns to the two-mana commander tax (meaning, you have to wait two turns to bring your general back out, then 4, then 6 etc.) They also banned Memnarch, all the praetors, rhystic study, mind's eye, heartless hidetsugu, all infect cards, darksteel colossus, all eldrazi, azusa, and took away victory points for tutoring. They also took away points if you won via mill or commander damage. Basically, every week someone would have a new gripe, and they'd make a houserule. It was by far the lamest, least fun, most obnoxious magic environment I've ever experienced.
Slippery slope, the movie.
@OP, just beat them at their own game. Don't go non-infinite combo, don't try to bend the rules. They'll just go "pff, IMO that's still infinite combo meh meh yappa yappa". Most people who long for these rules are bad deckbuilders, just make a deck that wins in their way, better and fast. (Edric was suggested, for instance)
I'm not a regular at the store where I play EDH, but every time I go there I can sense a tension in between the players.
Between them complaining about Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Time Warp...all cards which the complainers themselves play...I've tried to propose that they just use only Modern legal cards minus the EDH ban-list (ie Griselbrand, etc.). That way it takes away a lot of complain cards and the Commander generals.
But...I'm an outsider and in truth, I think they'd rather just keep playing powerful cards and complaining when other people play them as well.
PS: And don't play Edric...you'll never hear the end to the whining. Even though you don't play Sol Ring and instead play crap like Zephyr Sprite. You can tell a lot about a magic player if they complain about Edric.
1. Try to Spike within their rules. I'm not using the term Spike pejoratively but basically trying to come with new ways to irritate them into submission. This isn't going to do anything. You're just going to frustrate yourself and the LGS. Jivan is right (as usual). They will just ban something each week. They want to play their durdle magic and they will create as toxic an environment as necessary to do it. That's just how that group wants to play.
2. Find a new LGS. This might not be doable depending on your area. If it is, finding a new group of people to play with who are more on your level will be beneficial for everyone.
3. If you can't find a new LGS, try to start your own group meeting at people's homes, etc. Hell, you could even do something interesting like having house rules at each place specific to the host and rotate where you're playing each week. Everyone gets their rocks off this way. (You could also propose the rotating house rules at the LGS but I doubt that would fly).
4. Quit.
Its unfortunate but varying expectations is the biggest downfall of this format and it can be a painful process finding the right playgroup for you.
Good luck.
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EDH UBRJeleva, Nephalia's Scourge BWTeysa,Orzhov Scion GWKarametra, God of Harvests UW Dragonlord Ojutai R Daretti, Scrap Savant
If you do want to go the "Hey guys, I'm not Infiniting, but still kicking your asses" way, you could use Braids, Conjurer Adept. Without any sort of "cheap" combo, you can T1 Island Sol Ring, T2 Island Braids, T3 Kozilik/Ulamog.
That's what this one guy at my group does. Just plays huge dudes early as possible, and backs it up with Countermagic.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
Just make a new deck more inline with the new rules. Have fun. If you try and fight the power or gain the rules it will not end well for you. You will end up being "that guy." More effort then it will ever be worth.
Just make a new deck more inline with the new rules. Have fun. If you try and fight the power or gain the rules it will not end well for you. You will end up being "that guy." More effort then it will ever be worth.
You'd be right if it wasn't a tournament. But when prizes exist people should be expected to play in a more competitive way. Arbitrary restrictions render any attempt at a balanced competition invalid. It becomes "who can abuse the system the best" which isn't an enjoyable way to play for anyone.
You'd be right if it wasn't a tournament. But when prizes exist people should be expected to play in a more competitive way. Arbitrary restrictions render any attempt at a balanced competition invalid. It becomes "who can abuse the system the best" which isn't an enjoyable way to play for anyone.
Prize support and EDH just never mix well. That said I can see wanting to change stuff up. The base edh banned list is terrible for competitive play. At least use french rules...
firstly, if a tournament is set up, then surely they are LOOKING for competitive play, right? and not 'social' play. so why the unnecessary extra rules? if you wanna add social interactions or whatever as a rule, then use a points system that gives points for social plays and removes for anti-social play.
azami isn't dead without combo though. wizard beats can be a huge thing.
i think just to kinda spite the rules, i would've probably pulled zur backed with insane amounts of hand-disruption and artifact removal just to mess with people. the thing is, if its a tournament, if there are prizes, you can't expect people to not bring their a-game or try to win it, right?
You'd be right if it wasn't a tournament. But when prizes exist people should be expected to play in a more competitive way. Arbitrary restrictions render any attempt at a balanced competition invalid. It becomes "who can abuse the system the best" which isn't an enjoyable way to play for anyone.
Prize support and EDH just never mix well. That said I can see wanting to change stuff up. The base edh banned list is terrible for competitive play. At least use french rules...
I disagree; my playgroup has prize support for the normal EDH banlist, we don't hold anything back, and we all play just fine.
The response to decks like Jhoira/Arcum Dagsson/Kaalia is to simply build a better deck.
Of course, it doesn't help that anyone whose won every one of their games is immediately 3v1ed, so as to keep people from wanting to constantly win.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
You'd be right if it wasn't a tournament. But when prizes exist people should be expected to play in a more competitive way. Arbitrary restrictions render any attempt at a balanced competition invalid. It becomes "who can abuse the system the best" which isn't an enjoyable way to play for anyone.
Prize support and EDH just never mix well. That said I can see wanting to change stuff up. The base edh banned list is terrible for competitive play. At least use french rules...
That would be my argument as well. A competitive banlist exists, I can't imagine why people wouldn't use it unless they didn't really want a competition. But I'm used to EDH players being massive hypocrites more than in any other format.
You'd be right if it wasn't a tournament. But when prizes exist people should be expected to play in a more competitive way. Arbitrary restrictions render any attempt at a balanced competition invalid. It becomes "who can abuse the system the best" which isn't an enjoyable way to play for anyone.
Prize support and EDH just never mix well. That said I can see wanting to change stuff up. The base edh banned list is terrible for competitive play. At least use french rules...
That would be my argument as well. A competitive banlist exists, I can't imagine why people wouldn't use it unless they didn't really want a competition. But I'm used to EDH players being massive hypocrites more than in any other format.
You'd be right if it wasn't a tournament. But when prizes exist people should be expected to play in a more competitive way. Arbitrary restrictions render any attempt at a balanced competition invalid. It becomes "who can abuse the system the best" which isn't an enjoyable way to play for anyone.
Prize support and EDH just never mix well. That said I can see wanting to change stuff up. The base edh banned list is terrible for competitive play. At least use french rules...
That would be my argument as well. A competitive banlist exists, I can't imagine why people wouldn't use it unless they didn't really want a competition. But I'm used to EDH players being massive hypocrites more than in any other format.
That is the reason Griselbrand is banned in non-French commander; he's such a strong card there is no reason not to include him, and when you can Entomb him into your graveyard (Or even discounting Griselbrand, any of the HUGE fatties) turn one and get him out turn two, I guarantee you that you would see this constantly in a 4 player pod.
You don't need the competitive banlist (Which bans stupid things that don't need banning....) you just need to approach a 4 player pod played competitively correctly.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
That is the reason Griselbrand is banned in non-French commander; he's such a strong card there is no reason not to include him, and when you can Entomb him into your graveyard (Or even discounting Griselbrand, any of the HUGE fatties) turn one and get him out turn two, I guarantee you that you would see this constantly in a 4 player pod.
You don't need the competitive banlist (Which bans stupid things that don't need banning....) you just need to approach a 4 player pod played competitively correctly.
That's why you don't have multiplayer competitive. Gris isn't banned in Duel and tournaments seem fine there. I have to say your claims are ill-founded and incorrect. Don't use opinions, use data.
I've asked before, what are other games that have a free for all multiplayer competitive environment?
That is the reason Griselbrand is banned in non-French commander; he's such a strong card there is no reason not to include him, and when you can Entomb him into your graveyard (Or even discounting Griselbrand, any of the HUGE fatties) turn one and get him out turn two, I guarantee you that you would see this constantly in a 4 player pod.
You don't need the competitive banlist (Which bans stupid things that don't need banning....) you just need to approach a 4 player pod played competitively correctly.
That's why you don't have multiplayer competitive. Gris isn't banned in Duel and tournaments seem fine there. I have to say your claims are ill-founded and incorrect. Don't use opinions, use data.
I've asked before, what are other games that have a free for all multiplayer competitive environment?
In 1v1, you have one person who may get the Gris combo going. In pod, you have four who may get it. Simple statistics, more chances is more likely an event will occur.
However, even disregarding that, you are banning a bunch of commanders that are only so-so, simply because of how good they are 1v1; Derevei loses a ton of her power in Pod but is still workable. Edric is a non issue as most (Good) players will just kill the Edric player instead of getting manipulated. Zur loses a bit of his power if you have three people with any sort of Enchantment Hate. Don't get me wrong, they are all still really good commanders, and top tier, but in a free for all pod, they just don't stack up as well as you would think.
Also, any sort of ruling that bans cards like Back to Basics but not cards like Bitterblossom/Jace the Mind Sculptor or other expensive cards is a ruling that is only looking after pushing product and forcing you to spend $1000 on decks.
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Oath of the Gatewatch; the set that caused the competitive community to freak out over Basic Lands.
@ How to win with Azami without going infinite - Diviner's Wand and/or Emperial Plate on Azami + some wizards and you can quickly kill people with commander damage. Throw in a couple of time spells + snapcaster mage / archaeomancer and you can probably kill the table.
I'm surprised it took this many posts for someone to post this.
You don't need combo to win with Azami (combo just makes the games less agonizingly long).
Play heavy control with time spells, draw spells, wheels and about 10 or so key wizards. Use the Diviner's Wand and Plate to kill with commander damage.
Honestly, if you build a strong enough deck like this they will beg you to play combo Azami if they understand the game at all well. It would be like playing weenie Edric. Everyone that understands Magic can tell when the Edric guy has effectively won the game (usually you know this by turn 5) and gets annoyed that it takes him another 10 turns to actually win. You can do the same thing with non combo Azami. Lock the game such that your win is inevitable as early as turn 5 but you don't actually win until turn 15. Seriously, it will drive intelligent players nuts and have them begging you to put combos in.
not sure the others would be begging him to put combo back in after seeing the inevitable win coming, but in slow motion.
commander damage isn't part of the alternate win-cons, right?
whats the deal with the mill-kill? i'd be pretty impressed with people who manage to pull that one off, just cuz milling 300 cards aint no easy feat, but its also an alternative won-con...
thing is, if commander damage isn't part of the win-con anymore, then lifegain would almost def outlast the game. phyrexian processor/angelic chorus/true conviction or something. even if mill isn't a won condition, you'd be hard pressed to actually lose when your life is up in the millions.
I'm not super familiar with Azami, but I'd say in general combo is stronger in multiplayer and control is stronger in 1v1. In multiplayer you have to carefully use your resources since there are multiple people that are potential threats. The guy who is not doing anything could just be a bad player or he could be waiting for a combo to combo out when everyone else is tapped. In 1v1 you spend all of your resources on your opponent since you only have 1 enemy, which makes sneaking out a combo much harder. A comboless Azami can work in muliplayer, but it'll be hard since Azami has a reputation of being a competitive general. It's hard to control a table when everyone is trying to kill you.
My Saffi deck
Anywho, we have a meta of 8-16 players each week. We got one group of players that are more cutthroat, and then there's one group that's more of a casual group. I can play in both of them, but i prefer the casual when i just want to sit down and talk alot haha, since politics seems more crucial there, because it usually isn't a race to an infinite combo/ one player sitting down and taking a turn for 20 mins.
We do have Mono blue all counterspells decks etc, it's cool and all. We're trying to keep the armageddon effects at a minimum, but ofc it happens. I do run infinites, but i don't always go for them, but others just sees that they got one and they end the game, often the rest of the players continue playing if someone infinites.
We have no real bans, except keep the armageddon effects at a minimum. World gorger dragon and similar combos appeared quite often before.
So this red player did WorldGorger Dragon through an Zirilian activation, in response to his Apocalypse, combo to exile everybodys permanents, and save his owns, so i killed his dragon in response to the trigger, exiling everything he had aswell.
And then he thought we would reset the game, but i made the group keep playing this time and showed them that this route is not the most entertaining one.
So the Zirilian player took out the dragon combo and Apocalypse, and to me it looks like he has alot more fun now.
My Karn deck has quite alot of landdestruction, but i only result to it when i really need it. Yes it's a combo deck, but i removed a few combos and the stax part.
Sorry for the rambling.
THING IS, if we didn't have coutnerspells and the like, alot of Mayael players would take over the games all the time, it's rediculous how fast they can be.
Who needs Colours?
My most played EDH deck:
X Kozilek, the Great Distortion
UBR Nekusar, the Mindrazer
Me and a couple friends tried forever to get the LGS we frequent most to have 1v1 tourneys. Finally they decided to give it a try but insisted on the mp ban list. People felt the French list was too "restrictive", which makes no sense given it's about the same number of cards, but anyway. Myself, I was just... but Hermit Druid... The didn't listen and the first week a regular brings his HD deck and face rolls with me and my friend who pushed for the tourney coming in second (Zur) and third (Jenara) respectively. The other fifteen or so people brought decks that I wouldn't even consider tuned for mp. Result? Everyone says 1v1 EDH is "stupid" and we didn't get a second week.
That or they'll keep you from winning next time by banning non creatures.
Build Riku spellslinger.
Slippery slope, the movie.
@OP, just beat them at their own game. Don't go non-infinite combo, don't try to bend the rules. They'll just go "pff, IMO that's still infinite combo meh meh yappa yappa". Most people who long for these rules are bad deckbuilders, just make a deck that wins in their way, better and fast. (Edric was suggested, for instance)
[Primer] Kozilek, Butcher with Juice.
Between them complaining about Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Time Warp...all cards which the complainers themselves play...I've tried to propose that they just use only Modern legal cards minus the EDH ban-list (ie Griselbrand, etc.). That way it takes away a lot of complain cards and the Commander generals.
But...I'm an outsider and in truth, I think they'd rather just keep playing powerful cards and complaining when other people play them as well.
PS: And don't play Edric...you'll never hear the end to the whining. Even though you don't play Sol Ring and instead play crap like Zephyr Sprite. You can tell a lot about a magic player if they complain about Edric.
1. Try to Spike within their rules. I'm not using the term Spike pejoratively but basically trying to come with new ways to irritate them into submission. This isn't going to do anything. You're just going to frustrate yourself and the LGS. Jivan is right (as usual). They will just ban something each week. They want to play their durdle magic and they will create as toxic an environment as necessary to do it. That's just how that group wants to play.
2. Find a new LGS. This might not be doable depending on your area. If it is, finding a new group of people to play with who are more on your level will be beneficial for everyone.
3. If you can't find a new LGS, try to start your own group meeting at people's homes, etc. Hell, you could even do something interesting like having house rules at each place specific to the host and rotate where you're playing each week. Everyone gets their rocks off this way. (You could also propose the rotating house rules at the LGS but I doubt that would fly).
4. Quit.
Its unfortunate but varying expectations is the biggest downfall of this format and it can be a painful process finding the right playgroup for you.
Good luck.
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's Scourge
BWTeysa,Orzhov Scion
GWKarametra, God of Harvests
UW Dragonlord Ojutai
R Daretti, Scrap Savant
Modern
GB Tron
UW UW Control
That's what this one guy at my group does. Just plays huge dudes early as possible, and backs it up with Countermagic.
You'd be right if it wasn't a tournament. But when prizes exist people should be expected to play in a more competitive way. Arbitrary restrictions render any attempt at a balanced competition invalid. It becomes "who can abuse the system the best" which isn't an enjoyable way to play for anyone.
Prize support and EDH just never mix well. That said I can see wanting to change stuff up. The base edh banned list is terrible for competitive play. At least use french rules...
firstly, if a tournament is set up, then surely they are LOOKING for competitive play, right? and not 'social' play. so why the unnecessary extra rules? if you wanna add social interactions or whatever as a rule, then use a points system that gives points for social plays and removes for anti-social play.
azami isn't dead without combo though. wizard beats can be a huge thing.
i think just to kinda spite the rules, i would've probably pulled zur backed with insane amounts of hand-disruption and artifact removal just to mess with people. the thing is, if its a tournament, if there are prizes, you can't expect people to not bring their a-game or try to win it, right?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
I disagree; my playgroup has prize support for the normal EDH banlist, we don't hold anything back, and we all play just fine.
The response to decks like Jhoira/Arcum Dagsson/Kaalia is to simply build a better deck.
Of course, it doesn't help that anyone whose won every one of their games is immediately 3v1ed, so as to keep people from wanting to constantly win.
That would be my argument as well. A competitive banlist exists, I can't imagine why people wouldn't use it unless they didn't really want a competition. But I'm used to EDH players being massive hypocrites more than in any other format.
So every game ends turn 2 Entomb/Reanimate Griselbrand?
I'm not sure what you mean. Explain please.
Sure assuming you allow people to stack their decks every game, this very likely seems the case.
You don't need the competitive banlist (Which bans stupid things that don't need banning....) you just need to approach a 4 player pod played competitively correctly.
That's why you don't have multiplayer competitive. Gris isn't banned in Duel and tournaments seem fine there. I have to say your claims are ill-founded and incorrect. Don't use opinions, use data.
I've asked before, what are other games that have a free for all multiplayer competitive environment?
In 1v1, you have one person who may get the Gris combo going. In pod, you have four who may get it. Simple statistics, more chances is more likely an event will occur.
However, even disregarding that, you are banning a bunch of commanders that are only so-so, simply because of how good they are 1v1; Derevei loses a ton of her power in Pod but is still workable. Edric is a non issue as most (Good) players will just kill the Edric player instead of getting manipulated. Zur loses a bit of his power if you have three people with any sort of Enchantment Hate. Don't get me wrong, they are all still really good commanders, and top tier, but in a free for all pod, they just don't stack up as well as you would think.
Also, any sort of ruling that bans cards like Back to Basics but not cards like Bitterblossom/Jace the Mind Sculptor or other expensive cards is a ruling that is only looking after pushing product and forcing you to spend $1000 on decks.
I'm surprised it took this many posts for someone to post this.
You don't need combo to win with Azami (combo just makes the games less agonizingly long).
Play heavy control with time spells, draw spells, wheels and about 10 or so key wizards. Use the Diviner's Wand and Plate to kill with commander damage.
Honestly, if you build a strong enough deck like this they will beg you to play combo Azami if they understand the game at all well. It would be like playing weenie Edric. Everyone that understands Magic can tell when the Edric guy has effectively won the game (usually you know this by turn 5) and gets annoyed that it takes him another 10 turns to actually win. You can do the same thing with non combo Azami. Lock the game such that your win is inevitable as early as turn 5 but you don't actually win until turn 15. Seriously, it will drive intelligent players nuts and have them begging you to put combos in.
EDH Decks:
WUBOloro, Combo ControlWUB
UBOona Reanimator ComboUB
BRGProssh, Eater of the Blue MageBRG
UBRGrixis StormUBR
Rebuilding Jenara (stealyourstuff.dec)
Pauper Deck:
UBInspired SirenUB
commander damage isn't part of the alternate win-cons, right?
whats the deal with the mill-kill? i'd be pretty impressed with people who manage to pull that one off, just cuz milling 300 cards aint no easy feat, but its also an alternative won-con...
thing is, if commander damage isn't part of the win-con anymore, then lifegain would almost def outlast the game. phyrexian processor/angelic chorus/true conviction or something. even if mill isn't a won condition, you'd be hard pressed to actually lose when your life is up in the millions.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom