Two more great inexpensive friends of MtBR that I haven't seen mentioned in the thread: Epochrasite (if it dies without a counter, it waits a few turns to come back big; if it dies big, MtBR brings it back the same turn big) and Rockslide Elemental (lots of creatures will be dying on your side and theirs).
I'm not sure that works. Epochrasite dies, then Marchesa's and its ability triggers. Marchesa's ability does nothing yet, so Epochrasite is exiled with suspend. Does Marchesa's ability at the end step work if Epochrasite is in exile?
What I'm thinking: Sac outlets and treason effects.
What you do is:
1. With Marchesa and a sac outlet in play, cast Treason (or any of its zillions of cheap red variants). Steal an enemy creature till end of turn.
2. That creature has haste. Swing at whichever opponent has the most life. It gets a +1/+1 counter as soon as you declare the attack (whether it connects or not).
3. If the creature dies in combat, fine. If it doesn't, feed it to the sac outlet. If you want to be nice to the opponent in question, or simply preserve his or her life total so you can keep pulling this trick, feed it to the sac outlet before damage is dealt.
4. At end of turn, Marchesa brings the creature back under your control... permanently.
Of course, if you are the player with the most life, this doesn't work. If only we were playing a color stuffed with ways to burn its own life total for cards and other benefits! Oh, wait. We are.
Got to try my "flayer of the arcbound" artifact Marchesa tonight and it was very fun. If you can get multiple arcbound creatures on the board at once, you can stack the counters up rapidly. I was able to get a 34/34 arcbound crusher within a few turns, and after a boardwipe managed to restore it to a 15/15 by my next upkeep. My specific decklist seems a bit janky (nothing feels quite a stupid as playing arcbound bruiser, but it sure does power up that crusher), but unfortunately most of the etb with +1/+1 counter creatures in grixis are fairly pricey, so I don't see this getting to the god tier of generals. Still, it definitely gets rolling pretty quickly once you get your engines going, and it was a lot of fun. So, big thumbs up for the design, wizards.
Massive post with thoughts on all those cards because I'm bored and found it interesting!
Stingmoggie, Mindwarper, Festercreep (And, to a lesser extent, Ion Storm) - I like the utility these cards have beyond just entering with +1/+1 counters, ready to be recurred. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that you don't get a creature back if you remove the last counter to pay for its ability. Especially relevant with Festercreep, which seems like it will only really do anything if you have Dethrone or another counter-adding effect online, and then probably not much. Though maybe I'm wrong?
Spike Cannibal - Perhaps a slight non-bo with Marchesa since it turns off your other creatures, leaving any 0/0's that enter with counters dead and not coming back, but it's possible that it may become ridiculously massive and act as a finisher if there's a haste enabler and any sort of evasion-granter about. I may run it just for that one rare time I resolve it against a Vorel player who's made some ridiculous monster.
Rage Forger - Love it. It supports everything Marchesa wants to do. But how many shamans are in these colors? From what I remember, they are mostly green creatures, right? Regardless, it's probably good enough anyway, but I dislike ignoring part of a card in any context.
Necroplasm - Super interesting. Great if you have a bunch of low CMC guys with counters on them. The lack of a good way to control it is slightly disappointing, though. And am I right in guessing that it will destroy itself when it ends the turn on three counters, just starting the cycle over again? I suppose you can skip the three-counter turn and try to control it better with other cards to add or remove counters.
Magmasaur - This seems like one of those cards I would never want to play in any deck because it doesn't seem very good compared to some other things. It is also the card I will lean over to see what it says and then say, "Oh $#&^(%," since it's being played by the one deck where it seems super broken. Play it when Whip of Erebos is on the field, gain millions of life. ...Turn off the ability to add counters via dethrone effectively, but that's maybe not a huge deal. (Though just looked up the Whip to make sure and I think it doesn't work how I'd want it to with Marchesa. Am disappointed. Since the Magmasaur is sacrificed when damage occurs, would it even gain you the life?)
Dark Impostor - Seems great, but I think if it dies and comes back, it no longer has access to the previously exiled cards? Still though, having this guy be that much harder to kill would be super annoying. I'm the kind of guy who would actually feel bad if nobody could deal with it, though...
Anthroplasm - Ummmm... Is there an explanation for how this is a thing? It's ability is only useful if you've got some temporary non-counter buff or an anthem? I'm confused.
Burnished Hart - Hadn't even thought about this until now. Sacrificing Burnished Hart after attacking for a counter? Wow. Random metal Elk I originally thought was kind of silly and expensive keeps surprising me.
Amok - Such a fun word to say! Don't think I would run it, though. Having an opponent make me discard or wheel and ruin my plans is already really annoying. Doing it to myself just feels wrong. Maybe if you focus much more on interacting with the graveyard rather than just having things bounce off it continually?
Dark Prophecy - Seems like another card that does exactly what Marchesa wants to do. Helps the suicide end of her play style to keep Dethrone turned on and grants card advantage while doing it. Possibly better than Phyrexian Arena in this deck?
Lethal Vapors - Kind of turns off any creatures that don't enter with +1/+1 counters if they get killed while this is in effect. Seems quite strong, however. Are there any effects in these colors that have creatures you control enter with +1/+1 counters regardless? The only one of those I can think of right now is in green, and requires the creature's power be over a certain value.
Soul Ransom, Slave of Bolas The effectiveness of any control effects has already been pointed out. Soul Ransom seems less useful without haste, though that's only to get a readily-available Dethrone counter.
Blade of the Bloodchief - Obvious include. I wonder how many vampires would end up fighting alongside Marchesa? I didn't play in Innistrad block, but I think they had a thing for +1/+1 counters?
Unspeakable symbol is her number one tech for sure.
Flayer of the hatebound, river kelpie, and mikaeus are her groupies.
Haste enablers make her absolutely bonkers and Imagine swinging with a full board, and 2nd main phase you jokulhops. I can't see losing if it would resolve.
Yes i cannot wait to build the deck
Could even do grixis reanimator, living death seems sick too
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I think it would look best if she was build with an evasion theme, that exploited killing opponents off with strong creatures and ETB effects.
With the counters being a thing to make your guys bigger, the aggressive swings, and the fact that you don't care too much if your guys die, I think every Archetype has a place in this deck. Imagination grants very strong evasion and provides damage control against opposing flyers, Finality makes your guys trade regardless of the size of the blocker (and what's your opponent gonna do? Just lose his guy while you get yours back?), and Aggression can help any creatures that have managed to get large with counters overrun opposing forces. Also, as a bit of secret tech, Aggression allows you to keep back a couple of small recurable chump blockers without fear that they'll be trampled over.
On another topic, a lot of our discussion and brainstorming is seeming to rely very heavily on Marchesa being out. I think maybe there should be some discussion on the best ways to protect her. Darksteel Plate is likely a must. I would also run Indestructibility and maybe Gift of Immortality if I could, but alas, no white. I'm not sure what else can grant Indestructible in any other color, though. Perhaps steal some flicker or bounce from blue to protect against targeted removal? If you can reliably get counters on her, burning or destroying her and other creatures in response to a Cyclonic Rift or exiling/shuffling effect might be effective?
I also really like Hex Parasite, because then you have a little more control over what creatures you get. I've been in many a game where, no, I really didn't want that Bane of Progress back on the field, even if it's under my control.
Obviously not all are auto-includes, but they all offer interesting potential. Discuss?
Stingmoggie - cute, although the ability is costly and people will hate you. Generally I'd rather use my mana doing other things.
spike cannibal - depending on your build (specifically, is it good?) he's a major bummer with Marchesa. Of course, you do control the order things etb during your endstep, but if you don't have a sac outlet and someone kills it randomly, it could etb and ruin your life. Not worth the risk imo.
souldrinker - other creatures etb with +1/+1 counters instead of paying for them, and this one costs 4. pass.
rage forger - if he gave himself a +1/+1 counter he'd be good, as it is, nah unless you're building a really aggro, creature-focused sort of build for marchesa. I think there are way better ways to deal damage to people.
necroplasm - personally my build has a lot of creatures already within the 1-4 cmcs, so I don't love it. Also the fact that he only gets a counter if he survives a full cycle makes him bad imo - especially with marchesa, most things can get a counter IF they survive a cycle - you want creatures that etb with counters.
mindwarper - the ability is expensive and 4 cmc is always awkward since that's where marchesa herself sits. pass.
magmasaur - I've considered it, he's pretty interesting since you can just shrink him if you can't handle the damage yet. He's kinda high curve, but he is very interesting.
festercreep - since it'd be hard to use his ability, mostly I think he's a 1/1 that undies with marchesa. That makes him decent if you're going for a heavily sac-oriented build, and it'll make people nervous about playing 1-2 toughness creatures.
dark imposter - really cool, albeit expensive. I cut him from mine because I wanted to stay very low curve, but he's certainly a nasty card with marchesa. In a slower build I'd keep him for sure.
anthroplasm - same deal as mindwarper - he just doesn't do enough to warrant costing 4.
burnished hart - personally I don't love this card, but I guess it could be ok if you're going high-curve. It would probably be slow to get going anywhere, though.
amok - it's cute, random discard sucks really bad though. If you're going heavily etb without many +1/+1 counters it could be worth it as backup protection.
dark prophecy - I run it, it's strong but also tough to cast sometimes, although I usually prioritize black mana for fetches thanks to that and grave pact. Not recommended for budgety manabases though, unless you're willing to lose a lot of utility lands to support it.
ion storm - big meh. too expensive to be worth the effect.
lethal vapors - it's a cute trick, i never run it though because, from your perspective, one enemy skipping a turn isn't that great, so it's only worth it if no one wants to do it for a while.
soul ransom - I don't get it, what's the synergy here?
blade of the bloodchief - too tricky imo, the fact that it reenters without the equipment makes it unreliable (and impossible to use more than once per turn cycle), and the cost to equip means you're playing out of curve if you're putting it on marchesa as she etbs. Decent for cutesy builds I guess.
slave of bolas - the whole family of these theft effects are pretty cool. This on is kinda overpriced imo, I'd rather have harness by force or mass mutiny, but at least this one doesn't require a sac outlet.
I think I've settled on Mar-KAY-suh. That seems to balance both my natural dialect and my desire to avoid calling her Marcheesa.
The plane she's from seems to have an Italian/Renaissance Florentine feel to it (names like Muzzio, Grenzo, Paliano, and some of the clothing) so I think this is right. "Marchesa" pronounced similarly, is Italian for "marquise" (noblewoman).
I'm making her right now and can't decide on how to fit like 130 cards into this one deck and most arn't even lands...
Is there a way to go infinite in this deck with just altars/mikaeus? Or any other infinite stuff that's not degenerate blue based. I don't want to resort to deadeye navigator shennanigans/power artifact etc...I do like to win off Exsanguinate though lol
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Currently Playing:
Standard: Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Wins, Naya Walkers, Boss Sligh, Mono Black Aggro
Modern: RUG Scapeshift, Burn, UG Infect
Legacy: Death n Taxes, Burn, Tendrils
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Krenko, Mob Boss, Narset, Enlightened Master
I'm making her right now and can't decide on how to fit like 130 cards into this one deck and most arn't even lands...
Is there a way to go infinite in this deck with just altars/mikaeus? Or any other infinite stuff that's not degenerate blue based. I don't want to resort to deadeye navigator shennanigans/power artifact etc...I do like to win off Exsanguinate though lol
She doesn't really lend anything to infinites because of the "beginning of the next end step" stuck on her ability, but there are plenty of ways to go infinite in these colors without her. Nim Deathmantle + Ashnod's Altar + any creature that brings a couple token friends, or leaves some when it dies, or either altar + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + any persist creature can also do it. There are a bunch of other options that don't involve Mikaeus or altars as well. There's a thread devoted to infinite combos somewhere on the boards, so you could check that out for ideas.
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[Pr]Jaya | Estrid | A rotating cast of decks built out of my box.
I just started thinking about good-ol' Marchesa again, and was wondering if anyone has brought up the B or R devour creatures from Alara block yet? I'm thinking primarily Tar Fiend might warrant some playtesting.
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My List of Current Decks: -Modern- WMartyrProcB BBurnR -Commander-
Yah I'm thinking off infinite alt wincon if she gets hindered or something hence why Mikaeus is like so boss in this deck, second commander for sure. And yeh nim deathmantle should be in the deck, phyrexian/ashnod altar too. Not sure about altar of dementia haha. But yes thanks for the tip on the infinite thread! Will check out.
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Currently Playing:
Standard: Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Wins, Naya Walkers, Boss Sligh, Mono Black Aggro
Modern: RUG Scapeshift, Burn, UG Infect
Legacy: Death n Taxes, Burn, Tendrils
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Krenko, Mob Boss, Narset, Enlightened Master
I haven't read the replies, but It looks like she would be brutal with Undying. Nice.
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"Whatever style you wish to play, be it fast and frenzied or slow and tactical, the surest way to defeat your opponent consistently is by dominating him or her in the war of card advantage." - Brian Wiseman, April 1996
I just had an idea today regarding a card for Marchesa decks: Ashling the Pilgrim. It's red intensive, but using Ashling in this deck may be worth it. She has a solid source of counters from her own ability, and if you need to later, you can blow her up and take opponents' and any of your guys with her. Even better with undying, where Ashling just comes out again and again after blowing up.
This was mentioned earlier in the thread but then never followed up on: she seems like the queen of mean for infect. Your opponent's life total won't be dropping, you'll have lots of aggressive creatures, and they won't want to block because of the counters. Combining that with the tools other people have mentioned that give +1/+1 counters sounds seriously mean.
A general that can just sit there and grow infect creatures indefinitely... *shudders*
Some creatures I like with Marchesa: Thoughtpicker Witch: Sacrifice Outlet (Wizard and Human if tribal matters) [Sleeper Potential] Rootwater Diver: Artifact Recursion. [Build dependent] Goblin Welder: Artifact Recursion. [Build dependent] Oona's Blackguard: Discard, aggro. [Build dependent] Arcbound Ravager: Sac outlet, Modular [All Star Potential in conjunction with Artifact Creatures] Vampire Hexmage: Planeswalker and random counters hate [Staple Potential] Torch Fiend | Reckless Reveler: Artifact hate [Playable] Phyrexian Revoker: Staple creature, can reset target with +1/+1 counter and sac outlet. [Playable] Voidmage Prodigy: Counterspell creature. [Playable; Wizard tribal bonus points] Baleful Strix: Value creature. [Playable; artifact centric bonus points] Burnished Hart: Ramp. Declare attack, gain +1/+1 counter, sac, gain 2 basics, return to play EOT [Staple; All Star] Garza's Assassin: Awkward manacost, Doomblade-like [see Burnished Hart]. [Fringe playable, Human tribal?] Goblin Flectomancer: Awkward manacost, Redirect-like [see Burnished Hart]. [Fringe playable] Goblin Sharpshooter: Good creature, a lot of death triggers to untap. Can ping yourself EOT to help enable Dethrone if in life lead. [Playable, All Star against Tokens] Fulminator Mage: Nonbasic land hate. Similar to a Wasteland/Crucible with general. [Competitive Potential] Pawn of Ulamog: Many death triggers, creates eldrazi spawn creatures. Similar to a Black Market that is colorless. [Playable] Scarecrone: Artifact centric staple, otherwise playable value creature. [Playable with upside depending on build] Trinket Mage: Staple with many 1 drop artifacts [Ravanger type build bonus points], otherwise playable [All Star potential] Sage of Fables: Wizard tribal bonus points, otherwise playable creature. [Playable with upside] Moriok Replica: Sign in Blood type effect. Lowers life for Dethrone. [See Burnished Hart] [Fringe Playable, Artifact centric bonus points] Barrin, Master Wizard: Unsummon effect sac outlet [Fringe playable] Fleshwrither: 4 CMC creature tutor. [Build dependent playable] Slithermuse: Build dependent card draw. [Meta/Build dependent playable] Solemn Simulacrum: Ramp/Card Draw [All Star, bonus points artifact centric] Falkenrath Aristocrat: Evasive hard to remove aggro sac outlet. [Playable, Aggro-Human tribal All Star] Dauthi Mindripper: Shadow is difficult to block, potential to make opponents discard 3 cards a turn [Playable] Glen Elendra Archmage: Staple counterspell. [Staple] Phyrexian Metamorph: Clone effect, life loss helps with Dethrone [Playable] Treasonous Ogre: Ramp, potentially abusable. Could potentially lead to large turns. Enables Dethrone [Playable] Kuldotha Forgemaster: Artifact centric all star. Otherwise fringe to unplayable depending on build [Build Dependent All Star] Phyrexian Plaguelord: Childhood throwback. Creature removal [Fringe playable] Grimgrin, Corpse-Born: Sweet finisher, removal, sac outlet, counter bonus points [Fringe Staple, Playable upside] Riptide Shapeshifter: Build dependent creature tutor [into play], needs a build with diverse creature types. [Build dependent Playable] River Kelpie: Card draw engine in conjunction with commander. [All Star Potential] Mulldrifter: EDH Staple, exceptional playable. [Staple] Hoarding Dragon: Artifact Tutor. [Artifact Centric All Star, Playable Upside] Flayer of the Hatebound: Creature removal and finisher [Staple, All Star] Preyseizer Dragon: Aggro/Casual finisher that plays well with other abilities this general builds around [Playable] Wurmcoil Engine: Artifact centric finisher [manage life gain and necessity to enable dethorne with sac outlets] [Artifact Centric Staple, All Star potential] Kokusho, the Evening Star Destroy's dethrone, but is a strong finisher. The mass life swing can work well with life as a resource cards like Treasonous Ogre and Necropotence [Strong finisher] Bloodfire Colossus: Recurable board wipe/finisher [Playable] Thraximundar: Alternate general and finisher [Playable] Molten Primordial: Mass threaten effect [with general and sac outlet you keep creatures indefinitely] [Playable, with upside]
Top five non-creature cards to autoinclude at least when beginning to build your Marchesa EDH deck: Unspeakable Symbol: Instant speed +1/+1 counters, enables Dethrone. Sneak Attack: [With General]R: Put a creature from your hand into play, it gains haste. Trigger ETB (twice) and LTB triggers. Grave Pact: So many sac outlets, this kills many creatures. Dictate of Erebos: Grave Pact 2.0 Grave Betrayal: High CMC enchantment that is a bulk rare, but has a lot of play with the General. Casual bonus points, can cut for CMC reasons.
Absolute Marchesa Staples: Unspeakable Symbol : Saves any creature at instant speed with her out, and lowers your life for dethrone triggers. Absolute gold here. River Kelpie : If there was a deck that could abuse this dude, this is it. Sacrificing your board to have everything return and draw a whole new hand is bonkers. Treasonous Ogre : I cannot believe this was printed. Following up or leading your general with this guy leads to some disgusting plays. Casting an Urabrask and inferno Titan dethroning yourself and swinging for the fences is just amazing. Urabrask the Hidden : Great haste enabler, slows blockers, does sick plays with ^^^^^^^. Wouldn't run the deck without him. Kira, Great Glass Spinner : Protecting your dudes from targeted removal on a cheap evasive body that can become a decent sized threat? Yes please. Olivia Voldaren : Loves beefing herself up and stealing dudes. Oh and those dudes with counters on them are fun to sac, because you essentially keep them forever. Keiga, the Tide Star : I love dragons, this dragon steals things. Stolen things we can use far better than your average opponent, not as good as olivia, but still great. Havengul Lich : Love stealing creatures or miss throwing a counter on one before it died? Have all the dudes you want mana permitting. Also plays well necrotic ooze and with the next dude. Flayer of the Hatebound : This is a one sided pandemonium that can swing, and is hard to get rid of. Cast a living death with him in the yard and its going to hurt.... a lot. Deathrender : Whats better than cheating dudes into play from the graveyard? Cheating them from your hand into play of course! Jokulhops : You with get evil stares when you cast it, but you will win when it resolves. You like winning right? Watch as everyone scrambles to get back into the game while your dudes keep turning sideways. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed : Your creatures will never leave the field except for exile/tuck effects with him and your general out.
Notable Sac Outlets Phyrexian Altar : Instant speed mana for anything you want that requires me sacrificing my recurring dudes? Sweet. Disciple of Bolas : More life and cards, and can abuse it's etb. Seems decent. Goblin Bombardment : Use it to fine tune life totals so dethrone triggers exactly when and who you want it on. My first pick for this deck's outlets. Champion of Stray Souls : Expensive late game finisher, acts like recurring one sided living death. Grimgrin, Corpse-Born : Sac outlet, huge beater, works well with general, and removal all in one. Seems excellent. Dread Return : Always gets 2 dudes back for four mana, the flashback is just sick in this deck. Falkenrath Aristocrat : Great big hasty beater and outlet. Can survive wrath effects if you sac a human.
The One card to rule them all.... Necrotic Ooze : This card is insane. Just to give some ideas, If you have a grimgrin in the yard and someone has a kikijiki in the yard(which you can run!) you instantly have infinite etbs/die triggers on whatever you want. Olivia lets you steal things, treasonous ogre lets you pump your life into mana, and havengul lich is just plain stupid. You can use lich and ooze can keep casting each other over and over if need be.
Just some others that play well I've thrown in: Spellskite : Sure i'll eat that removal for 2 life, wait let me target it enough to make my life lower than yours. Inferno Titan : Opponent not paying attention to your yard? Firebreathe him to death. Thassa, God of the Sea : Unblockable is amazing in aggro decks. Erebos, God of the Dead : Slow greed effects are still good, when having to much life can be an issue.
There are tons and tons of ooze combos in grixis im sure.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I don't think I've seen Prince of Thralls mentioned in this thread yet. Since Marchesa's ability seems to be able to trigger on stolen creatures, this can be a nice alternative/redundancy option to Grave Betrayal. Giving your opponents options is admittedly bad, and the life loss can run counter to our plan, but we'd generally be trying to work around life totals as is. You can also tutor him out with Shadowborn Apostles or Demon's Herald using some of your creatures for even more value.
Also, any deck that has potential synergies with Shadowborn Apostle is going places.
Hmmm... I notice Mulldrifter on one of those lists, and it makes me think a bit more about Evoke. Is the Evoke clause an additional triggered ability on ETB, or is it a state-based action? If it's a trigger, you could evoke it for 2U, use Unspeakable Symbol to place a counter on it, and end up with four cards and a recur-able 2/2 flyer that gets you more for 2U and 3 life.
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I'm not sure that works. Epochrasite dies, then Marchesa's and its ability triggers. Marchesa's ability does nothing yet, so Epochrasite is exiled with suspend. Does Marchesa's ability at the end step work if Epochrasite is in exile?
What you do is:
1. With Marchesa and a sac outlet in play, cast Treason (or any of its zillions of cheap red variants). Steal an enemy creature till end of turn.
2. That creature has haste. Swing at whichever opponent has the most life. It gets a +1/+1 counter as soon as you declare the attack (whether it connects or not).
3. If the creature dies in combat, fine. If it doesn't, feed it to the sac outlet. If you want to be nice to the opponent in question, or simply preserve his or her life total so you can keep pulling this trick, feed it to the sac outlet before damage is dealt.
4. At end of turn, Marchesa brings the creature back under your control... permanently.
Of course, if you are the player with the most life, this doesn't work. If only we were playing a color stuffed with ways to burn its own life total for cards and other benefits! Oh, wait. We are.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Stingmoggie, Mindwarper, Festercreep (And, to a lesser extent, Ion Storm) - I like the utility these cards have beyond just entering with +1/+1 counters, ready to be recurred. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that you don't get a creature back if you remove the last counter to pay for its ability. Especially relevant with Festercreep, which seems like it will only really do anything if you have Dethrone or another counter-adding effect online, and then probably not much. Though maybe I'm wrong?
Spike Cannibal - Perhaps a slight non-bo with Marchesa since it turns off your other creatures, leaving any 0/0's that enter with counters dead and not coming back, but it's possible that it may become ridiculously massive and act as a finisher if there's a haste enabler and any sort of evasion-granter about. I may run it just for that one rare time I resolve it against a Vorel player who's made some ridiculous monster.
Rage Forger - Love it. It supports everything Marchesa wants to do. But how many shamans are in these colors? From what I remember, they are mostly green creatures, right? Regardless, it's probably good enough anyway, but I dislike ignoring part of a card in any context.
Necroplasm - Super interesting. Great if you have a bunch of low CMC guys with counters on them. The lack of a good way to control it is slightly disappointing, though. And am I right in guessing that it will destroy itself when it ends the turn on three counters, just starting the cycle over again? I suppose you can skip the three-counter turn and try to control it better with other cards to add or remove counters.
Magmasaur - This seems like one of those cards I would never want to play in any deck because it doesn't seem very good compared to some other things. It is also the card I will lean over to see what it says and then say, "Oh $#&^(%," since it's being played by the one deck where it seems super broken. Play it when Whip of Erebos is on the field, gain millions of life. ...Turn off the ability to add counters via dethrone effectively, but that's maybe not a huge deal. (Though just looked up the Whip to make sure and I think it doesn't work how I'd want it to with Marchesa. Am disappointed. Since the Magmasaur is sacrificed when damage occurs, would it even gain you the life?)
Dark Impostor - Seems great, but I think if it dies and comes back, it no longer has access to the previously exiled cards? Still though, having this guy be that much harder to kill would be super annoying. I'm the kind of guy who would actually feel bad if nobody could deal with it, though...
Anthroplasm - Ummmm... Is there an explanation for how this is a thing? It's ability is only useful if you've got some temporary non-counter buff or an anthem? I'm confused.
Burnished Hart - Hadn't even thought about this until now. Sacrificing Burnished Hart after attacking for a counter? Wow. Random metal Elk I originally thought was kind of silly and expensive keeps surprising me.
Amok - Such a fun word to say! Don't think I would run it, though. Having an opponent make me discard or wheel and ruin my plans is already really annoying. Doing it to myself just feels wrong. Maybe if you focus much more on interacting with the graveyard rather than just having things bounce off it continually?
Dark Prophecy - Seems like another card that does exactly what Marchesa wants to do. Helps the suicide end of her play style to keep Dethrone turned on and grants card advantage while doing it. Possibly better than Phyrexian Arena in this deck?
Lethal Vapors - Kind of turns off any creatures that don't enter with +1/+1 counters if they get killed while this is in effect. Seems quite strong, however. Are there any effects in these colors that have creatures you control enter with +1/+1 counters regardless? The only one of those I can think of right now is in green, and requires the creature's power be over a certain value.
Soul Ransom, Slave of Bolas The effectiveness of any control effects has already been pointed out. Soul Ransom seems less useful without haste, though that's only to get a readily-available Dethrone counter.
Blade of the Bloodchief - Obvious include. I wonder how many vampires would end up fighting alongside Marchesa? I didn't play in Innistrad block, but I think they had a thing for +1/+1 counters?
I've been giving it a Spanish touch: "Mar-chay-sah."
Flayer of the hatebound, river kelpie, and mikaeus are her groupies.
Haste enablers make her absolutely bonkers and Imagine swinging with a full board, and 2nd main phase you jokulhops. I can't see losing if it would resolve.
Yes i cannot wait to build the deck
Could even do grixis reanimator, living death seems sick too
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Modern
Commander
Cube
<a href="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/the-cube-forum/cube-lists/588020-unpowered-themed-enchantment-an-enchanted-evening">An Enchanted Evening Cube </a>
With the counters being a thing to make your guys bigger, the aggressive swings, and the fact that you don't care too much if your guys die, I think every Archetype has a place in this deck. Imagination grants very strong evasion and provides damage control against opposing flyers, Finality makes your guys trade regardless of the size of the blocker (and what's your opponent gonna do? Just lose his guy while you get yours back?), and Aggression can help any creatures that have managed to get large with counters overrun opposing forces. Also, as a bit of secret tech, Aggression allows you to keep back a couple of small recurable chump blockers without fear that they'll be trampled over.
On another topic, a lot of our discussion and brainstorming is seeming to rely very heavily on Marchesa being out. I think maybe there should be some discussion on the best ways to protect her. Darksteel Plate is likely a must. I would also run Indestructibility and maybe Gift of Immortality if I could, but alas, no white. I'm not sure what else can grant Indestructible in any other color, though. Perhaps steal some flicker or bounce from blue to protect against targeted removal? If you can reliably get counters on her, burning or destroying her and other creatures in response to a Cyclonic Rift or exiling/shuffling effect might be effective?
I feel like this deck is screaming for an It That Betrays. Could probably figure something to do that's janky with Sheoldred, Whispering One or Butcher of Malakir, but I think it certainly gets there.
Harvester of Souls seems pretty legit.
Necropolis Regent seems REALLY GOOD.
I also really like Hex Parasite, because then you have a little more control over what creatures you get. I've been in many a game where, no, I really didn't want that Bane of Progress back on the field, even if it's under my control.
Dark Impostor seems like a friend of Marchesa.
I think Corpse Connoisseur would be a good pick if you have any recursion (which you do).
I come for a camp of EDH players that really like Perplexing Chimera.
Guys, really, come on! Living Death,Sepulchral Primordial, Geth, Lord of the Vault, Reaper from the Abyss, Sage of Hours, etc.
So excited to build her, though.
Stingmoggie - cute, although the ability is costly and people will hate you. Generally I'd rather use my mana doing other things.
spike cannibal - depending on your build (specifically, is it good?) he's a major bummer with Marchesa. Of course, you do control the order things etb during your endstep, but if you don't have a sac outlet and someone kills it randomly, it could etb and ruin your life. Not worth the risk imo.
souldrinker - other creatures etb with +1/+1 counters instead of paying for them, and this one costs 4. pass.
rage forger - if he gave himself a +1/+1 counter he'd be good, as it is, nah unless you're building a really aggro, creature-focused sort of build for marchesa. I think there are way better ways to deal damage to people.
necroplasm - personally my build has a lot of creatures already within the 1-4 cmcs, so I don't love it. Also the fact that he only gets a counter if he survives a full cycle makes him bad imo - especially with marchesa, most things can get a counter IF they survive a cycle - you want creatures that etb with counters.
mindwarper - the ability is expensive and 4 cmc is always awkward since that's where marchesa herself sits. pass.
magmasaur - I've considered it, he's pretty interesting since you can just shrink him if you can't handle the damage yet. He's kinda high curve, but he is very interesting.
festercreep - since it'd be hard to use his ability, mostly I think he's a 1/1 that undies with marchesa. That makes him decent if you're going for a heavily sac-oriented build, and it'll make people nervous about playing 1-2 toughness creatures.
dark imposter - really cool, albeit expensive. I cut him from mine because I wanted to stay very low curve, but he's certainly a nasty card with marchesa. In a slower build I'd keep him for sure.
anthroplasm - same deal as mindwarper - he just doesn't do enough to warrant costing 4.
burnished hart - personally I don't love this card, but I guess it could be ok if you're going high-curve. It would probably be slow to get going anywhere, though.
amok - it's cute, random discard sucks really bad though. If you're going heavily etb without many +1/+1 counters it could be worth it as backup protection.
dark prophecy - I run it, it's strong but also tough to cast sometimes, although I usually prioritize black mana for fetches thanks to that and grave pact. Not recommended for budgety manabases though, unless you're willing to lose a lot of utility lands to support it.
ion storm - big meh. too expensive to be worth the effect.
lethal vapors - it's a cute trick, i never run it though because, from your perspective, one enemy skipping a turn isn't that great, so it's only worth it if no one wants to do it for a while.
soul ransom - I don't get it, what's the synergy here?
blade of the bloodchief - too tricky imo, the fact that it reenters without the equipment makes it unreliable (and impossible to use more than once per turn cycle), and the cost to equip means you're playing out of curve if you're putting it on marchesa as she etbs. Decent for cutesy builds I guess.
slave of bolas - the whole family of these theft effects are pretty cool. This on is kinda overpriced imo, I'd rather have harness by force or mass mutiny, but at least this one doesn't require a sac outlet.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Resurrect one of your creatures that may have fallen while Marchesa wasn't in play and keep it around if you can get a counter on it again.
The plane she's from seems to have an Italian/Renaissance Florentine feel to it (names like Muzzio, Grenzo, Paliano, and some of the clothing) so I think this is right. "Marchesa" pronounced similarly, is Italian for "marquise" (noblewoman).
Edit: http://www.answers.com/topic/marchese-constructor
I'm making her right now and can't decide on how to fit like 130 cards into this one deck and most arn't even lands...
Is there a way to go infinite in this deck with just altars/mikaeus? Or any other infinite stuff that's not degenerate blue based. I don't want to resort to deadeye navigator shennanigans/power artifact etc...I do like to win off Exsanguinate though lol
Standard: Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Wins, Naya Walkers, Boss Sligh, Mono Black Aggro
Modern: RUG Scapeshift, Burn, UG Infect
Legacy: Death n Taxes, Burn, Tendrils
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Krenko, Mob Boss, Narset, Enlightened Master
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
Standard: Mardu Midrange, Jeskai Wins, Naya Walkers, Boss Sligh, Mono Black Aggro
Modern: RUG Scapeshift, Burn, UG Infect
Legacy: Death n Taxes, Burn, Tendrils
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion, Krenko, Mob Boss, Narset, Enlightened Master
A general that can just sit there and grow infect creatures indefinitely... *shudders*
That's what I'm going to try building.
Want to be a better Magic player? Read the rulings forum and check out the comprehensive rules!
Thoughtpicker Witch: Sacrifice Outlet (Wizard and Human if tribal matters) [Sleeper Potential]
Rootwater Diver: Artifact Recursion. [Build dependent]
Goblin Welder: Artifact Recursion. [Build dependent]
Oona's Blackguard: Discard, aggro. [Build dependent]
Arcbound Ravager: Sac outlet, Modular [All Star Potential in conjunction with Artifact Creatures]
Vampire Hexmage: Planeswalker and random counters hate [Staple Potential]
Torch Fiend | Reckless Reveler: Artifact hate [Playable]
Phyrexian Revoker: Staple creature, can reset target with +1/+1 counter and sac outlet. [Playable]
Voidmage Prodigy: Counterspell creature. [Playable; Wizard tribal bonus points]
Baleful Strix: Value creature. [Playable; artifact centric bonus points]
Burnished Hart: Ramp. Declare attack, gain +1/+1 counter, sac, gain 2 basics, return to play EOT [Staple; All Star]
Garza's Assassin: Awkward manacost, Doomblade-like [see Burnished Hart]. [Fringe playable, Human tribal?]
Goblin Flectomancer: Awkward manacost, Redirect-like [see Burnished Hart]. [Fringe playable]
Goblin Sharpshooter: Good creature, a lot of death triggers to untap. Can ping yourself EOT to help enable Dethrone if in life lead. [Playable, All Star against Tokens]
Fulminator Mage: Nonbasic land hate. Similar to a Wasteland/Crucible with general. [Competitive Potential]
Pawn of Ulamog: Many death triggers, creates eldrazi spawn creatures. Similar to a Black Market that is colorless. [Playable]
Scarecrone: Artifact centric staple, otherwise playable value creature. [Playable with upside depending on build]
Trinket Mage: Staple with many 1 drop artifacts [Ravanger type build bonus points], otherwise playable [All Star potential]
Sage of Fables: Wizard tribal bonus points, otherwise playable creature. [Playable with upside]
Moriok Replica: Sign in Blood type effect. Lowers life for Dethrone. [See Burnished Hart] [Fringe Playable, Artifact centric bonus points]
Barrin, Master Wizard: Unsummon effect sac outlet [Fringe playable]
Fleshwrither: 4 CMC creature tutor. [Build dependent playable]
Slithermuse: Build dependent card draw. [Meta/Build dependent playable]
Solemn Simulacrum: Ramp/Card Draw [All Star, bonus points artifact centric]
Falkenrath Aristocrat: Evasive hard to remove aggro sac outlet. [Playable, Aggro-Human tribal All Star]
Dauthi Mindripper: Shadow is difficult to block, potential to make opponents discard 3 cards a turn [Playable]
Glen Elendra Archmage: Staple counterspell. [Staple]
Phyrexian Metamorph: Clone effect, life loss helps with Dethrone [Playable]
Treasonous Ogre: Ramp, potentially abusable. Could potentially lead to large turns. Enables Dethrone [Playable]
Kuldotha Forgemaster: Artifact centric all star. Otherwise fringe to unplayable depending on build [Build Dependent All Star]
Phyrexian Plaguelord: Childhood throwback. Creature removal [Fringe playable]
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born: Sweet finisher, removal, sac outlet, counter bonus points [Fringe Staple, Playable upside]
Riptide Shapeshifter: Build dependent creature tutor [into play], needs a build with diverse creature types. [Build dependent Playable]
River Kelpie: Card draw engine in conjunction with commander. [All Star Potential]
Mulldrifter: EDH Staple, exceptional playable. [Staple]
Hoarding Dragon: Artifact Tutor. [Artifact Centric All Star, Playable Upside]
Flayer of the Hatebound: Creature removal and finisher [Staple, All Star]
Preyseizer Dragon: Aggro/Casual finisher that plays well with other abilities this general builds around [Playable]
Wurmcoil Engine: Artifact centric finisher [manage life gain and necessity to enable dethorne with sac outlets] [Artifact Centric Staple, All Star potential]
Kokusho, the Evening Star Destroy's dethrone, but is a strong finisher. The mass life swing can work well with life as a resource cards like Treasonous Ogre and Necropotence [Strong finisher]
Bloodfire Colossus: Recurable board wipe/finisher [Playable]
Thraximundar: Alternate general and finisher [Playable]
Molten Primordial: Mass threaten effect [with general and sac outlet you keep creatures indefinitely] [Playable, with upside]
Top five non-creature cards to autoinclude at least when beginning to build your Marchesa EDH deck:
Unspeakable Symbol: Instant speed +1/+1 counters, enables Dethrone.
Sneak Attack: [With General]R: Put a creature from your hand into play, it gains haste. Trigger ETB (twice) and LTB triggers.
Grave Pact: So many sac outlets, this kills many creatures.
Dictate of Erebos: Grave Pact 2.0
Grave Betrayal: High CMC enchantment that is a bulk rare, but has a lot of play with the General. Casual bonus points, can cut for CMC reasons.
Regular staples(Require no explanation):
Baleful Strix
Solemn Simulacrum
Burnished Heart
Absolute Marchesa Staples:
Unspeakable Symbol : Saves any creature at instant speed with her out, and lowers your life for dethrone triggers. Absolute gold here.
River Kelpie : If there was a deck that could abuse this dude, this is it. Sacrificing your board to have everything return and draw a whole new hand is bonkers.
Treasonous Ogre : I cannot believe this was printed. Following up or leading your general with this guy leads to some disgusting plays. Casting an Urabrask and inferno Titan dethroning yourself and swinging for the fences is just amazing.
Urabrask the Hidden : Great haste enabler, slows blockers, does sick plays with ^^^^^^^. Wouldn't run the deck without him.
Kira, Great Glass Spinner : Protecting your dudes from targeted removal on a cheap evasive body that can become a decent sized threat? Yes please.
Olivia Voldaren : Loves beefing herself up and stealing dudes. Oh and those dudes with counters on them are fun to sac, because you essentially keep them forever.
Keiga, the Tide Star : I love dragons, this dragon steals things. Stolen things we can use far better than your average opponent, not as good as olivia, but still great.
Havengul Lich : Love stealing creatures or miss throwing a counter on one before it died? Have all the dudes you want mana permitting. Also plays well necrotic ooze and with the next dude.
Flayer of the Hatebound : This is a one sided pandemonium that can swing, and is hard to get rid of. Cast a living death with him in the yard and its going to hurt.... a lot.
Deathrender : Whats better than cheating dudes into play from the graveyard? Cheating them from your hand into play of course!
Jokulhops : You with get evil stares when you cast it, but you will win when it resolves. You like winning right? Watch as everyone scrambles to get back into the game while your dudes keep turning sideways.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed : Your creatures will never leave the field except for exile/tuck effects with him and your general out.
Notable Sac Outlets
Phyrexian Altar : Instant speed mana for anything you want that requires me sacrificing my recurring dudes? Sweet.
Disciple of Bolas : More life and cards, and can abuse it's etb. Seems decent.
Goblin Bombardment : Use it to fine tune life totals so dethrone triggers exactly when and who you want it on. My first pick for this deck's outlets.
Champion of Stray Souls : Expensive late game finisher, acts like recurring one sided living death.
Grimgrin, Corpse-Born : Sac outlet, huge beater, works well with general, and removal all in one. Seems excellent.
Dread Return : Always gets 2 dudes back for four mana, the flashback is just sick in this deck.
Falkenrath Aristocrat : Great big hasty beater and outlet. Can survive wrath effects if you sac a human.
The One card to rule them all....
Necrotic Ooze : This card is insane. Just to give some ideas, If you have a grimgrin in the yard and someone has a kikijiki in the yard(which you can run!) you instantly have infinite etbs/die triggers on whatever you want. Olivia lets you steal things, treasonous ogre lets you pump your life into mana, and havengul lich is just plain stupid. You can use lich and ooze can keep casting each other over and over if need be.
Just some others that play well I've thrown in:
Spellskite : Sure i'll eat that removal for 2 life, wait let me target it enough to make my life lower than yours.
Inferno Titan : Opponent not paying attention to your yard? Firebreathe him to death.
Thassa, God of the Sea : Unblockable is amazing in aggro decks.
Erebos, God of the Dead : Slow greed effects are still good, when having to much life can be an issue.
There are tons and tons of ooze combos in grixis im sure.
This deck is insanely fun and really resilient.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Also, any deck that has potential synergies with Shadowborn Apostle is going places.
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks