It's worth noting that she goes infinite with a sac outlet and anything that enters the battlefield with +1/+1 counters and deals damage, like Geralf's Messenger and Triskelion.
she returns the creature at the beginning of the next endstep. It's impossible to infinite with her unless you're also taking infinite turns somehow. Her synergy with trike is sort of unexciting - you get a forked bolt every turn if you have a sac outlet, or a death/etb trigger if you don't.
How about something like Cytoplast Manipulator? With a simple Sac-Outlet she becomes a recurable Mark of Mutiny. On the other hand, it might be a little awkward because of the timing of Marchesa's ability.
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How about something like Cytoplast Manipulator? With a simple Sac-Outlet she becomes a recurable Mark of Mutiny. On the other hand, it might be a little awkward because of the timing of Marchesa's ability.
How about something like Cytoplast Manipulator? With a simple Sac-Outlet she becomes a recurable Mark of Mutiny. On the other hand, it might be a little awkward because of the timing of Marchesa's ability.
I considered her too (since she's the only worthwhile graft creature, unfortunately). She seems pretty solid - she's immortal as long as you've got a sac outlet and marchesa, then when she loses SS she steals a creature. Then you sac that creature so it returns under your control via marchesa and doesn't return when the manipulator dies. Then sac the manipulator so it comes back with 2 counters again, and prepare to snare something else.
Not sure if that's what you're saying, sorry if I'm just rehasing it. Not sure what you mean about the awkwardness of marchesa's timing?
EDIT: actually, graft is so absurd with marchesa that it's probably worth running junk like helium squirter. It's like a mini-mikaeus that recurs itself. imagine it with butcher of malakir or glen elendra archmage...it just gets silly.
That is what I was saying, you just put it so much more eloquently. Granted, it's kinda unfortunate that the Simic's other ability, Evolve, doesn't help Marchesa nearly as much as Graft.
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EDIT: actually, graft is so absurd with marchesa that it's probably worth running junk like helium squirter. It's like a mini-mikaeus that recurs itself. imagine it with butcher of malakir or glen elendra archmage...it just gets silly.
I was thinking the same thing earlier when I was looking of cards in her color identity that interact with +1/+1 counters. Frankly, being able to provide most any of your creatures flying fo 1 isn't that bad, if you're leveraging the card for something else.
That is what I was saying, you just put it so much more eloquently. Granted, it's kinda unfortunate that the Simic's other ability, Evolve, doesn't help Marchesa nearly as much as Graft.
Well, you can use the smaller blue Evolve creatures as immortal creatures. Long as they don't die alone, they'll probably come back with at least one +1/+1 counter from other things entering the battlefield alongside them. But then, what are the options? Cloudfin Raptor? Probably not. Simic Fluxmage might be useful to turn on the persistence of other creatures. Would Simic Manipulator be able to get big enough reliably to steal a bunch of stuff from opponents? It probably depends on the build.
It's worth paying attention to, at least. As is Unleash, if you want to try something more suicidal.
That is what I was saying, you just put it so much more eloquently. Granted, it's kinda unfortunate that the Simic's other ability, Evolve, doesn't help Marchesa nearly as much as Graft.
Well, you can use the smaller blue Evolve creatures as immortal creatures. Long as they don't die alone, they'll probably come back with at least one +1/+1 counter from other things entering the battlefield alongside them. But then, what are the options? Cloudfin Raptor? Probably not. Simic Fluxmage might be useful to turn on the persistence of other creatures. Would Simic Manipulator be able to get big enough reliably to steal a bunch of stuff from opponents? It probably depends on the build.
It's worth paying attention to, at least. As is Unleash, if you want to try something more suicidal.
Well the problem there is that they're mostly crappy vanilla creatures. Although Exava is a pretty decent haste enabler, and hellhole flailer is like a really crappy but lulzy flayer v2.
How about Ashling the Pilgrim? She could easily become a rather potent board wipe later in the game with her ability. In addition, it does allow for her remain on the battlefield until you decide to finally crack her.
I don't really think Blademaster is good, it has to connect - maybe in an aggro version of the deck. The Curse is cool, again, better in aggro, but we don't really need to go all in on a +1/+1 counters theme.
I basically see her as "fair persist" for all your creatures when you have mikaeus, the unhallowed in play.
definitely some good synergy there with sac engines and them returning to play.
I also think she has some viability with exava, the ravnica 2.0 rakdos bloodwitch.
grave betrayal may also be a good inclusion, depending on how things work out; i believe when an opponents creature dies you get it as a zombie with a +1/+1 counter. if that creature dies, then it would return to play under your play due to marchesa's ability. however, i am not 100% on that.
The Bloodwitch only gives haste when have counters, whereas Dethrone gives it to you when you attack, but she might be good if the deck ends up including a lot of the counter effects.
Yeah, the Grave Betrayal is going to be pretty awesome with her. It's on my list.
Cytoplast Manipulator also feels very strong with the Black Rose, as you can steal an opposing creature, then sacrifice it to gain permanent control of it at the end of the turn.
Will need to give opponent's creatures counters, but yeah can work.
I'm not sure why you have to be so durdly with her. Just build an aggro deck that's immune to boardwipes?
I feel like I'm going to hate playing against her enough that I'm going to have to build her.
I'm not sure if an attrition deck is being durdly with her. You think an aggro deck with her will actually be better? I'm not sure, can test both, see whats better, whats more fun.
Her interaction with persist guys is sort of lackluster. In fact it's basically impossible to get any value out of her recursion ability with them (although, interestingly enough, not TOTALLY impossible, just very difficult), so you're left with her dethrone ability to remove the counters. Which isn't terrible, but it's not great either. You could be that player, or that player could have a blocker that kills the persist creature, in which case you've basically accomplished nothing unless there's some other relevant trigger, such as grave pact, going on.
Also I don't get why consecrated sphinx or steel hellkite etc are on the list. Or kiki-jiki, for that matter. I mean they're all fine creatures but they don't really have any obvious synergy with her.
I am suddenly very pleased with my decision to purchase a sneak attack recently, though. This general looks pretty awesome.
Well with persist creatures, you just need to attack once to get rid of the -1/-1 counter. Plus we'll run Mikaeous, Unspeakable Symbol, but yeah, still in the very early stages, nothing at all is set in stone =P
Goodstuff cards were included in the list cause they'd probably be suggested at some point anyway. Am looking for non-obvious that I may have missed and a general strategy which would work best with her. Plus, isn't it better to have a Consecrated Sphinx that comes back after someone kills it? Lol. Kiki-Jiki was also mentioned as ETB effects might be great in the deck with all the built in recursion, just like in Sedris, the Traitor King decks.
I thinking something like Phyrexian Reclamation and Eternity Vessel might be interesting inclusion. Reclamation gives you another recursion engine for a relatively cheap cost, which also happens to help with your General's ability. Eternity Vessel's biggest asset is that it says may, so it could in theory work as a second life total if need be. Granted, the vessel might be a little too slow for her.
Reclamation seems like a fine card that I failed to include! I'll add it to the list.
I'm not sure about the Vessel though? It feels like it would be better in decks that want to keep life totals high?
I'm not sure why you have to be so durdly with her. Just build an aggro deck that's immune to boardwipes?
I feel like I'm going to hate playing against her enough that I'm going to have to build her.
This was more or less my plan. She looks like a ton of fun as a slightly suicidal Grixis aggro general. Why spend a bunch of time and resources to steal creatures (which blue does already) when you can just play out a bunch of hard hitters and swing?
I'm more interested in finding ways to give my board evasion and hitting with saboteur abilities. Marchesa drastically speeds up the clock from a bunch of little guys and the recursion ability is a great backup for when you're not holding a counter for the inevitable wrath. I'm definitely playing her as a Grixis swarm general.
I'm not really looking for ways to steal creatures or anything. Just feels like attrition might be a really good and viable strategy with her. How would an Grixis aggro deck play out? What creatures would you run? What would your curve look like? It certainly sounds interesting and I'm willing to give it a shot
I'm not sure why you have to be so durdly with her.
Who doesn't love being durdlely?
Personally I think all of the silly things you can do by building around her recursion ability is the real incentive to want to play her. Honestly I'm considering replacing my Vela the Night Clad token deck with a deck built around Marchesa. (They'd basically be the same deck, so i don't see the point in building both. Vela tries to build a token swarm and wears down life totals, then blow out the table with a sac engine or a wrath, whereas I'd probably being trying to leverage ETB damage in Marchesa with Purphoros, Flayer of the Hatebound, and Warstorm Surge while running Vela for value.)
I'm not a huge fan of depending on the combat step but she could be fun. However, you may have to devote to many cards to build around her. Haste enablers, things to drain your own life, sac outlets, ETB and LTB creatures...
The one bonus is that you don't actually have to do combat damage so you declare attacks, get the counters then before damage is resolved sac everything to whatever outlet you are using and get everything back at end step. But then you have to depend on sac effects or ETB effects as win cons (easily doable).
In slow metas this could be a powerhouse. In fast metas it could be okay if you focus on powering Mikaeus and a sac outlet onto the board then abusing ETBs. Or Purphoros. But at that point you might as well play Mike/Trike and there are better commanders for that.
The goblins that allow you to sac to do damage might be better but I like the vampires because they help pay for you to use the black card draw. But you have to walk a fine line to make sure you don't have the most life.
Yeah, an aggro-midrange deck with a attrition subtheme would probably work best I'm thinking. Also I'd probably want to run a few wraths, since your creatures service, and not the opponents'.
It's worth noting that she goes infinite with a sac outlet and anything that enters the battlefield with +1/+1 counters and deals damage, like Geralf's Messenger and Triskelion.
Well, not really infinite, just, hitting someone every turn.
EDIT: actually, graft is so absurd with marchesa that it's probably worth running junk like helium squirter. It's like a mini-mikaeus that recurs itself. imagine it with butcher of malakir or glen elendra archmage...it just gets silly.
I was thinking the same thing earlier when I was looking of cards in her color identity that interact with +1/+1 counters. Frankly, being able to provide most any of your creatures flying fo 1 isn't that bad, if you're leveraging the card for something else.
Especially if you're playing aggro, evasion is key.
How about Ashling the Pilgrim? She could easily become a rather potent board wipe later in the game with her ability. In addition, it does allow for her remain on the battlefield until you decide to finally crack her.
Ashling is interesting, not sure though. And yes, Marchesa's ability does work on herself - I guess Opal Palace has a use after all! lol
Added a few cards to the opening post that were mentioned, great feedback so far. Also added a poll to see opinions of the overall archetype of the deck. I'll probably get started on a list soon...
I think that she could make an interesting Infect general. Her dethrone ability synergizes with Infect because it doesn't affect life.
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It's worth noting that she goes infinite with a sac outlet and anything that enters the battlefield with +1/+1 counters and deals damage, like Geralf's Messenger and Triskelion.
Does she? I was under the impression that the delayed resolution of her reanimate trigger disallows multiple uses in a single turn, per creature...although you could still sac on each players turn, but thats just turn economy not infinite etb or any such thing.
It's worth noting that she goes infinite with a sac outlet and anything that enters the battlefield with +1/+1 counters and deals damage, like Geralf's Messenger and Triskelion.
Provided you have infinite turns this is true. Otherwise you have to wait until the next end step to get your creature back.
Edit: Soooo nath'd .... this is what happens when I don't see that there is a second page of discussion. Carry on.
I'm not sure why you have to be so durdly with her.
Who doesn't love being durdlely?
Personally I think all of the silly things you can do by building around her recursion ability is the real incentive to want to play her. Honestly I'm considering replacing my Vela the Night Clad token deck with a deck built around Marchesa. (They'd basically be the same deck, so i don't see the point in building both. Vela tries to build a token swarm and wears down life totals, then blow out the table with a sac engine or a wrath, whereas I'd probably being trying to leverage ETB damage in Marchesa with Purphoros, Flayer of the Hatebound, and Warstorm Surge while running Vela for value.)
I'd be interested in seeing that Vela list
This is the most recent version of the list that I have. It needs a little bit of work and I haven't updated the deck for Theros block yet, but the basic framework is there .(This is the first time I've actually looked at the list in a while, and I didn't realize I was so low on answers to threats on the board. I'm going to have to work on that soon.)
Honestly, I was thinking about a goodstuff ETB creature deck could possibly be good with her. Some of the challenges that go with this though is that haste and sac outlets seem like they would be important to make her work well. Adding more pieces to anything always complicates which is a little troublesome. I am sort of pushing around ideas currently as it looks interesting.
There is some good synergy though with theft effects if you have sac outlets to follow them up.
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Her interaction with persist guys is sort of lackluster. In fact it's basically impossible to get any value out of her recursion ability with them (although, interestingly enough, not TOTALLY impossible, just very difficult), so you're left with her dethrone ability to remove the counters. Which isn't terrible, but it's not great either. You could be that player, or that player could have a blocker that kills the persist creature, in which case you've basically accomplished nothing unless there's some other relevant trigger, such as grave pact, going on.
Also I don't get why consecrated sphinx or steel hellkite etc are on the list. Or kiki-jiki, for that matter. I mean they're all fine creatures but they don't really have any obvious synergy with her.
I am suddenly very pleased with my decision to purchase a sneak attack recently, though. This general looks pretty awesome.
Well with persist creatures, you just need to attack once to get rid of the -1/-1 counter. Plus we'll run Mikaeous, Unspeakable Symbol, but yeah, still in the very early stages, nothing at all is set in stone =P
Goodstuff cards were included in the list cause they'd probably be suggested at some point anyway. Am looking for non-obvious that I may have missed and a general strategy which would work best with her. Plus, isn't it better to have a Consecrated Sphinx that comes back after someone kills it? Lol. Kiki-Jiki was also mentioned as ETB effects might be great in the deck with all the built in recursion, just like in Sedris, the Traitor King decks.
You need to attack the player with the most life, assuming that's possible and assuming they can't block and kill it. I mean it's a little synergistic but it's not that great. probably worth it for archmage but no one else.
If the point of this thread is to identify cool synergies with marchesa, then it doesn't make sense to include goodstuff cards that don't synergize with her. If the point is to make a decklist, then this should be in the multiplayer decklists subsection.
Also, for those who think she's made for aggro - she's not. Her dethrone ability sucks for playing aggro - the correct aggro strategy is to pick the person most likely to cause you trouble, and kill them, then repeat. If you're trying to get max value out of dethrone, even assuming you don't become the highest life total yourself, you'll have to whittle the whole table at once, which is a really bad aggro strategy.
EDIT: ooh, taurean mauler is pretty fun in this deck. "Oh, you cast a boardwipe? you've only made him ANGRIER." Also, dark imposter.
I have an aggro/discard grixis deck and this is pretty much the kind of general I have been waiting for.
Other than that, looking pretty dang good
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I'm not sure why you have to be so durdly with her.
Who doesn't love being durdlely?
Personally I think all of the silly things you can do by building around her recursion ability is the real incentive to want to play her. Honestly I'm considering replacing my Vela the Night Clad token deck with a deck built around Marchesa. (They'd basically be the same deck, so i don't see the point in building both. Vela tries to build a token swarm and wears down life totals, then blow out the table with a sac engine or a wrath, whereas I'd probably being trying to leverage ETB damage in Marchesa with Purphoros, Flayer of the Hatebound, and Warstorm Surge while running Vela for value.)
I'd be interested in seeing that Vela list
This is the most recent version of the list that I have. It needs a little bit of work and I haven't updated the deck for Theros block yet, but the basic framework is there .(This is the first time I've actually looked at the list in a while, and I didn't realize I was so low on answers to threats on the board. I'm going to have to work on that soon.)
Her interaction with persist guys is sort of lackluster. In fact it's basically impossible to get any value out of her recursion ability with them (although, interestingly enough, not TOTALLY impossible, just very difficult), so you're left with her dethrone ability to remove the counters. Which isn't terrible, but it's not great either. You could be that player, or that player could have a blocker that kills the persist creature, in which case you've basically accomplished nothing unless there's some other relevant trigger, such as grave pact, going on.
Also I don't get why consecrated sphinx or steel hellkite etc are on the list. Or kiki-jiki, for that matter. I mean they're all fine creatures but they don't really have any obvious synergy with her.
I am suddenly very pleased with my decision to purchase a sneak attack recently, though. This general looks pretty awesome.
Well with persist creatures, you just need to attack once to get rid of the -1/-1 counter. Plus we'll run Mikaeous, Unspeakable Symbol, but yeah, still in the very early stages, nothing at all is set in stone =P
Goodstuff cards were included in the list cause they'd probably be suggested at some point anyway. Am looking for non-obvious that I may have missed and a general strategy which would work best with her. Plus, isn't it better to have a Consecrated Sphinx that comes back after someone kills it? Lol. Kiki-Jiki was also mentioned as ETB effects might be great in the deck with all the built in recursion, just like in Sedris, the Traitor King decks.
You need to attack the player with the most life, assuming that's possible and assuming they can't block and kill it. I mean it's a little synergistic but it's not that great. probably worth it for archmage but no one else.
If the point of this thread is to identify cool synergies with marchesa, then it doesn't make sense to include goodstuff cards that don't synergize with her. If the point is to make a decklist, then this should be in the multiplayer decklists subsection.
Also, for those who think she's made for aggro - she's not. Her dethrone ability sucks for playing aggro - the correct aggro strategy is to pick the person most likely to cause you trouble, and kill them, then repeat. If you're trying to get max value out of dethrone, even assuming you don't become the highest life total yourself, you'll have to whittle the whole table at once, which is a really bad aggro strategy.
EDIT: ooh, taurean mauler is pretty fun in this deck. "Oh, you cast a boardwipe? you've only made him ANGRIER." Also, dark imposter.
Yeah, that's true. Not too many of the Persist guys will end up seeing play.
Point of the thread is to be able to use the information to eventually build a good Marchesa deck.
They probably still aren't good enough, even if you're playing a deck that focuses on combat, you want every creature to do something other than just attack.
I'm actually surprised that over half the people voted for "+1/+1 Counter Synergy" as the best strategy for the deck. It's going to be hard to build her since theres so many different ways you can end up going lol.
I love the effect she gives for the colors she's in. She's sort of like an unbreakable (due to the EOT clause) Mikaeus in two extra colors. I've put together a little decklist based on my ideas for what I would play with her, focusing on triggers from Pandemonium, Warstorm Surge, and Flayer of the Hatebound, I love those sort of effects and she can really enable them via her recursion. Other good things with +1/+1 counters are mixed in. Decklist -> http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/16-05-14-marchesa-5/
In general, I really, really like her design as a CMDR general as it's not at all linear but provides for a variety of deck-building interpretations and can yield many different and effective decks. She also takes politics of multiplayer into consideration and will be fun to play both with and against. Marchesa's a home-run.
It's worth noting that she goes infinite with a sac outlet and anything that enters the battlefield with +1/+1 counters and deals damage, like Geralf's Messenger and Triskelion.
The "at the beginning of the next end step" clause makes this not-so-infinite, at least in terms of a one-shot kill.
Two more great inexpensive friends of MtBR that I haven't seen mentioned in the thread: Epochrasite (if it dies without a counter, it waits a few turns to come back big; if it dies big, MtBR brings it back the same turn big) and Rockslide Elemental (lots of creatures will be dying on your side and theirs).
Also, wouldn't it be great if there was a cheap way in these colors to just put a +1/+1 counter on a creature for one mana so it would be guaranteed to come back from dying even if it hadn't gotten to attack? Especially if that card also let that creature take part in Arcbound/Steel Overseer/Master of Etherium shenanigans if you had an artifact creatures subtheme? And if it was tutorable without losing card advantage thanks to Trinket Mage, and had the potential to combine with Vandalblast to take out an enemy creature? Yes, I may just have to dig out... Ashnod's Transmogrant. (Okay, not for every possible version of the deck. But a slew of modular creatures might want some friends.)
Also, wouldn't it be great if there was a cheap way in these colors to just put a +1/+1 counter on a creature for one mana so it would be guaranteed to come back from dying even if it hadn't gotten to attack? Especially if that card also let that creature take part in Arcbound/Steel Overseer/Master of Etherium shenanigans if you had an artifact creatures subtheme? And if it was tutorable without losing card advantage thanks to Trinket Mage, and had the potential to combine with Vandalblast to take out an enemy creature? Yes, I may just have to dig out... Ashnod's Transmogrant. (Okay, not for every possible version of the deck. But a slew of modular creatures might want some friends.)
Without the artifact shenanigans, the card you're looking for is called Unspeakable Symbol. Because why pay mana when you can just enable Dethrone instead.
I can see her as good aggro build with Unleash and Graft mechanics.
The thing is that you will end up most time as the player with most HP, so you will have to rely just on her second ability.
But I like her, im still not sure if I would make a deck around her.
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she returns the creature at the beginning of the next endstep. It's impossible to infinite with her unless you're also taking infinite turns somehow. Her synergy with trike is sort of unexciting - you get a forked bolt every turn if you have a sac outlet, or a death/etb trigger if you don't.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
*recurable mind control
I considered her too (since she's the only worthwhile graft creature, unfortunately). She seems pretty solid - she's immortal as long as you've got a sac outlet and marchesa, then when she loses SS she steals a creature. Then you sac that creature so it returns under your control via marchesa and doesn't return when the manipulator dies. Then sac the manipulator so it comes back with 2 counters again, and prepare to snare something else.
Not sure if that's what you're saying, sorry if I'm just rehasing it. Not sure what you mean about the awkwardness of marchesa's timing?
EDIT: actually, graft is so absurd with marchesa that it's probably worth running junk like helium squirter. It's like a mini-mikaeus that recurs itself. imagine it with butcher of malakir or glen elendra archmage...it just gets silly.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
I was thinking the same thing earlier when I was looking of cards in her color identity that interact with +1/+1 counters. Frankly, being able to provide most any of your creatures flying fo 1 isn't that bad, if you're leveraging the card for something else.
Well, you can use the smaller blue Evolve creatures as immortal creatures. Long as they don't die alone, they'll probably come back with at least one +1/+1 counter from other things entering the battlefield alongside them. But then, what are the options? Cloudfin Raptor? Probably not. Simic Fluxmage might be useful to turn on the persistence of other creatures. Would Simic Manipulator be able to get big enough reliably to steal a bunch of stuff from opponents? It probably depends on the build.
It's worth paying attention to, at least. As is Unleash, if you want to try something more suicidal.
Well the problem there is that they're mostly crappy vanilla creatures. Although Exava is a pretty decent haste enabler, and hellhole flailer is like a really crappy but lulzy flayer v2.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Also, does Marchesa, the Black Rose ability apply to herself? If it does Opal Palace might be worth some consideration.
-Modern-
WMartyrProcB
BBurnR
-Commander-
I don't really think Blademaster is good, it has to connect - maybe in an aggro version of the deck. The Curse is cool, again, better in aggro, but we don't really need to go all in on a +1/+1 counters theme.
The Bloodwitch only gives haste when have counters, whereas Dethrone gives it to you when you attack, but she might be good if the deck ends up including a lot of the counter effects.
Yeah, the Grave Betrayal is going to be pretty awesome with her. It's on my list.
Will need to give opponent's creatures counters, but yeah can work.
That's what I'm trying to achieve, just need to find a good balance.
I'm not sure if an attrition deck is being durdly with her. You think an aggro deck with her will actually be better? I'm not sure, can test both, see whats better, whats more fun.
Well with persist creatures, you just need to attack once to get rid of the -1/-1 counter. Plus we'll run Mikaeous, Unspeakable Symbol, but yeah, still in the very early stages, nothing at all is set in stone =P
Goodstuff cards were included in the list cause they'd probably be suggested at some point anyway. Am looking for non-obvious that I may have missed and a general strategy which would work best with her. Plus, isn't it better to have a Consecrated Sphinx that comes back after someone kills it? Lol. Kiki-Jiki was also mentioned as ETB effects might be great in the deck with all the built in recursion, just like in Sedris, the Traitor King decks.
And yes, Sneak Attack is going to be insane here!
Reclamation seems like a fine card that I failed to include! I'll add it to the list.
I'm not sure about the Vessel though? It feels like it would be better in decks that want to keep life totals high?
I'm not really looking for ways to steal creatures or anything. Just feels like attrition might be a really good and viable strategy with her. How would an Grixis aggro deck play out? What creatures would you run? What would your curve look like? It certainly sounds interesting and I'm willing to give it a shot
I'd be interested in seeing that Vela list
Yeah, an aggro-midrange deck with a attrition subtheme would probably work best I'm thinking. Also I'd probably want to run a few wraths, since your creatures service, and not the opponents'.
Well, not really infinite, just, hitting someone every turn.
Especially if you're playing aggro, evasion is key.
Ashling is interesting, not sure though. And yes, Marchesa's ability does work on herself - I guess Opal Palace has a use after all! lol
Added a few cards to the opening post that were mentioned, great feedback so far. Also added a poll to see opinions of the overall archetype of the deck. I'll probably get started on a list soon...
For Lists, Click Here
EDH:
GW: Selvala, Let us help YOU.
UB: Mirko Vosk, when outmatched cheat
BW: Vish Kal, The Arbiter of Reanimation
UG: Prime Speaker Zegana, the science of sorcery
RB: Malfegor, Traitor's Haven
UW: Daxos, Control-Fort-Tron
BG: Pharika, Goddess of Stax
RW: Gisela, Boros Control
RG: Ruric Thar, a Primal Surge deck
RU: Niv-Mizzet the Firemind, Spellslinger?!?!
B:(Pauper) Mikaeus the Unhallowed
R: Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient: The Power of Engineering
Does she? I was under the impression that the delayed resolution of her reanimate trigger disallows multiple uses in a single turn, per creature...although you could still sac on each players turn, but thats just turn economy not infinite etb or any such thing.
Provided you have infinite turns this is true. Otherwise you have to wait until the next end step to get your creature back.
Edit: Soooo nath'd .... this is what happens when I don't see that there is a second page of discussion. Carry on.
Pioneer:UR Pheonix
Modern:U Mono U Tron
EDH
GB Glissa, the traitor: Army of Cans
UW Dragonlord Ojutai: Dragonlord NOjutai
UWGDerevi, Empyrial Tactician "you cannot fight the storm"
R Zirilan of the claw. The solution to every problem is dragons
UB Etrata, the Silencer Cloning assassination
Peasant cube: Cards I own
This is the most recent version of the list that I have. It needs a little bit of work and I haven't updated the deck for Theros block yet, but the basic framework is there .(This is the first time I've actually looked at the list in a while, and I didn't realize I was so low on answers to threats on the board. I'm going to have to work on that soon.)
*Link is to a google doc
There is some good synergy though with theft effects if you have sac outlets to follow them up.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
You need to attack the player with the most life, assuming that's possible and assuming they can't block and kill it. I mean it's a little synergistic but it's not that great. probably worth it for archmage but no one else.
If the point of this thread is to identify cool synergies with marchesa, then it doesn't make sense to include goodstuff cards that don't synergize with her. If the point is to make a decklist, then this should be in the multiplayer decklists subsection.
Also, for those who think she's made for aggro - she's not. Her dethrone ability sucks for playing aggro - the correct aggro strategy is to pick the person most likely to cause you trouble, and kill them, then repeat. If you're trying to get max value out of dethrone, even assuming you don't become the highest life total yourself, you'll have to whittle the whole table at once, which is a really bad aggro strategy.
EDIT: ooh, taurean mauler is pretty fun in this deck. "Oh, you cast a boardwipe? you've only made him ANGRIER." Also, dark imposter.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
I have an aggro/discard grixis deck and this is pretty much the kind of general I have been waiting for.
Other than that, looking pretty dang good
Thanks! I think Vela the Night-Clad will be a MVP in the deck, along side Mikaeus, the Unhallowed.
Yeah, that's true. Not too many of the Persist guys will end up seeing play.
Point of the thread is to be able to use the information to eventually build a good Marchesa deck.
They probably still aren't good enough, even if you're playing a deck that focuses on combat, you want every creature to do something other than just attack.
I'm actually surprised that over half the people voted for "+1/+1 Counter Synergy" as the best strategy for the deck. It's going to be hard to build her since theres so many different ways you can end up going lol.
In general, I really, really like her design as a CMDR general as it's not at all linear but provides for a variety of deck-building interpretations and can yield many different and effective decks. She also takes politics of multiplayer into consideration and will be fun to play both with and against. Marchesa's a home-run.
The "at the beginning of the next end step" clause makes this not-so-infinite, at least in terms of a one-shot kill.
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Also, wouldn't it be great if there was a cheap way in these colors to just put a +1/+1 counter on a creature for one mana so it would be guaranteed to come back from dying even if it hadn't gotten to attack? Especially if that card also let that creature take part in Arcbound/Steel Overseer/Master of Etherium shenanigans if you had an artifact creatures subtheme? And if it was tutorable without losing card advantage thanks to Trinket Mage, and had the potential to combine with Vandalblast to take out an enemy creature? Yes, I may just have to dig out... Ashnod's Transmogrant. (Okay, not for every possible version of the deck. But a slew of modular creatures might want some friends.)
Without the artifact shenanigans, the card you're looking for is called Unspeakable Symbol. Because why pay mana when you can just enable Dethrone instead.
RRR - Bosh's School of Hard(cover) Knocks
The thing is that you will end up most time as the player with most HP, so you will have to rely just on her second ability.
But I like her, im still not sure if I would make a deck around her.