Well some people liked the card a lot apparently and made exceptions to play it. When we play at my house we use a differnt banlist ... Mine and you can play prime time or shaharazad it's my house if you don't like it drive home. At my LGS when we play with worse players we let them scry 1 every turn for free. If some 55 year old dude plays an ansestral recall we don't care infact I'm happy to see the card when it's cast. If some random dude ploped an sp on me next week I would not care at all. What I'm saying is the banlist is a guideline play commander the way it's fun to you be it compeituve casual durdle creature wars combo central or stax nation figure out what the majority of players you enjoy playing with like and go for it.
We play with some banned cards. Griselbrand is in Kaalia. Omnath has both a Sylvan Primordial and a Primeval Titan. Everyone in the small group that we have is cool with it, so why not? If anyone were ever to object I wouldn't have any problem in replacing them, though.
Well sure, if it's agreed upon by everyone beforehand, I don't see a problem. Otherwise there is a certain expectation. It's kind of a common courtesy to not just play with banned cards just because you want to. If somebody plops down a banned card and is just like, "Deal with it," that's not really a player that I want to spend my free time playing with.
Has anyone else noticed that its usually those who abused it that resist change?
It's called Complacence, and it's really aggravating.
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This issue is one of the reasons EDH is starting to feel a bit "solved" to me, a lot of people want to use just the best cards in their deck (which I can understand to a degree), but it seems gone are the days of innovation in decks. There are at least 13,000 cards in the card pool (ok, some are very bad/not suited for the format I'll admit), but it seems most decks are Commander + X good cards of their colors + lands + ramp with a seasoning of synergistic cards to taste.
I was ecstatic when my playgroup went "Oh, he got banned? Sweet, now I have a slot for X!" (Especially when one of them is trying the one shot Scroll Rack in Credit Voucher, quickly becoming my favorite hidden gem) rather than replace it with good card X or slotting Terastodon/Woodfall Primus in it's place.
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The way I view custom ban lists is this, would you play big Jace in Modern? Lotus in legacy? Anything old and busted in standard? No. Because those cards are not a part of that format. Same for say...not letting someone play delivery in his standard season, that card was not banned and if someone wants to play it then they should.
I don't really care if someone uses their own list at home, but you're not playing EDH, you're playing your own format. Yeah yeah, the ban list is just a guide line blah blah blah. That c.f. ones with not being a tournament sanctioned format, but IMO it's like playing any other format at home and using it's official list as jud t a guide line.
Except it's not a competite format and the banlist is created to create fun games not balance power if it was it would look nothing like it does now. I'm more likely to understand someone saying I'm not playing edh when I turn 2-5 them 4 games in a row using differnt decks every time and all legal cards? Come on man that's a stretch not to mention the guys who run the banlist ban keeping in mind players can house ban / unban and encourage the use of custom lists at home and if agreed upon at your LGS.
As Uncle Ben once said: "With great power comes great responsibility."
Many are not responsible with powerful tools at their disposal. Cards that make you do autonomous things (which happen to be miserable to play against) shouldn't be welcomed. Tutors are also making people "stupid". Many tutor because they feel the need to, and not because the situation requires it.
Take note that other than power level, price, and availability, cards are banned because they hurt the spirit of the format. If not enough people were speaking against the vile monstrosity that is Sylvan Primordial, it wouldn't have been banned. People aren't responsible with it.
In addition, the mandatory requirement makes the caster feel bad about it when innocent lands get blown up. But let's be honest with ourselves. Who doesn't want to get ahead with even more lands?
A few people in my play group are so so on the ban and kinda dragging their feet on replacing Primordial, but they'll come around.
This was the general consensus I've noticed with Primeval Titan. People were upset and slow to move on, but after a while they could see a noticeable improvement.[/quote]
I haven't personally seen any improvement. Of course, I haven't personally seen any card on the list horribly abused despite seeing nearly all remotely fair cards on the list played before and after bans. I was actually contemplating cutting Primeval Titan for another Explosive Vegetation variant when I heard about it being considered for a ban. I was all WTF?!? It's good in standard, but I don't understand in commander. I guess that's why the ban list is mostly for playing against random people.
The original story is people at the store being wrong.
In the best case scenario they are simply ignorant and don't realize that the mtgcommander rules are official and Wizards is just slow at updating.
In the worst case scenario they are deliberately abusing Wizards being slow and trying to break the rules with a flimsy excuse to deny accountability and responsibility.
In both cases I suggest informing them of the mtgcommander rules being official, try to find some other proof of that if they ask, and try to be nice. If they downright refuse to listen or refuse to take out Sylvan even after understanding the rules, then I suggest keeping that in mind any time you interact with them in the future. It's a big mark against someone's character.
Edit: If people want to have a reasonable discussion about making a homeruled banlist that should be considered. However, I would strongly recommend against unbanning just Sylvan Primordial. In almost all cases choosing to homerule away the most recent change is just people being stubborn and overreacting. These things really need time to sink in and take effect and really be understood, so it's not worth immediately discounting.
However, if people want the most recent change redacted in addition to a bunch of other things it's almost certainly more thought out, although I would still suggest against the most recent change being redacted for at least a month or two for the same reasons.
And finally, make sure it's a reasoned discussion. Not "screw the rules commitee, they suck! You can all play Sylvan anyway because that banlist is dumb." Someone saying that isn't coming to their conclusion logically or rationally, and isn't really worth considering.
If someone flatout refused to relinquish sylvan primordial, I'd get a pile of extract, Torpor Orb and Null Chamber, mark them as your property and hand them out to as many other players in this game as possible - solely to squelch his card. Or just cast bribery on it and only target him.
People are free to ignore any banned list they want, but the rest of the table is going to throw a disproportionately large amount of hate your way.
Seriously, if someone is blowing up a land on turn 4 or later, it's not that big of a deal. The moral of the story is: play more counters, LD of your own, or LOWER YOUR CURVE. Don't whine until a harmless card gets banned because you want to be a crap deckbuilder.
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Yeah, see, it's attitudes like this that make casual EDH players dread finding new people to play with. There's Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage... what's wrong with wanting to play an EDH game that isn't ultra-competitive?
The reason I play EDH is because A) it's relatively cheap compared to other formats and B) I love seeing new cards, new interactions, etc. Magic has a rich history, and there's quite a few interesting cards that don't get played in any other format because they're .000005% worse than another card that could take that slot.
Re: Primordial, I'm surprised they didn't ban Deadeye first. (And this is coming from someone with a casual Blink deck.)
The RC's ban list is not made to address "private playgroups who acknowledge and discuss card choices amongst themselves and have agreed upon lists". Everyone talking about how their personal group of friends does X or Y as a defense for the people who are ignoring the ban is just silly and arguably off topic. The ban list is in place for playing with people you do not know well and/or who do not have a shared consensus opinion on the 'best'/'fun' way to play EDH.
The people whom this thread discuss and who are the problem are those who expect to play cards on the ban list with strangers or with those who have not agreed to exceptions being made. Those people are a legitimate problem. MTG is a game and the rules exist as to have a structured and (relatively) even playing-field amongst people who would otherwise disagree about specific concerns. I don't care *why* you think X rule is good or bad or should be ignored, when you're playing in an environment with other people with whom may not agree with your opinion you are obliged to play by the rules that apply universally.
The best example of this, imo, is a previous posted who mentioned wanting to play a card in a deck that wouldn't be abusing it but who, and this is important, would switch the card out if playing with others who were not ok with the exception. This is PRECISELY what I imagine the RC wants EDH to be like - a place where the rules give everyone a default consensus, but that basic communication skills and a friendly atmosphere can allow those rules to be adapted, increased, ignored or otherwise modified to best fit the players in that specific game.
i'd say teach/offer alternatives and if they still refuse to change, ask if they'd be willing to when you play with them... or just don't play games with them. loneliness often can shift a person's perspective
The ban was pretty baseless, but what's done is done. I've taken to adding more nasty, unfun cards to my decks to prove the point that Sylvan was pretty benign. I hope some day that WotC takes over the banlist and fixes it. Their bans are all over the place and there really hasn't been any consistent basis for them. I'd mostly just appreciate a little consistency.
The ban was pretty baseless, but what's done is done. I've taken to adding more nasty, unfun cards to my decks to prove the point that Sylvan was pretty benign. I hope some day that WotC takes over the banlist and fixes it. Their bans are all over the place and there really hasn't been any consistent basis for them. I'd mostly just appreciate a little consistency.
As has been mentioned before this is such a great attitude to take against your fellow players. 'I don't like this ban, so get ready for some terrible games'. That's going to work for sure, not just tick off people you play with. Good call.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
An increased number of terrible games after a ban that was ostensibly meant to decrease the number of terrible games proves a pretty clear point. Thanks for coming out though.
An increased number of terrible games after a ban that was ostensibly meant to decrease the number of terrible games proves a pretty clear point. Thanks for coming out though.
One piece of evidence from one play group does not prove anything. However, if thats true just get your playgroup to reinstate him, that's the joy of it not being sanctioned. Your playgroup can do whatever it likes, but the FORMAT is better without SP.
What about the new games is causing the issue? My guess would be people reacting like you did and purposely making games miserable to 'prove a point'.
If people are sick of reading about stuff just stop taking part. You have 100% control over what you read. Simic Ascendancy isn't going to get banned just because you didn't tell someone to shut up on the internet.
Not nearly enough information to pass judgement on either side. Does your play group just enforce the ban to taunt you while they play ad Nausuam if so by all means fight fire with fire. If they are casual and want you to respect the ban simply for consistency at the LGS suck it up. My new favorite play group is very casual though I don't enjoy the games very much I enjoy the company and happily play what I see as an intentionally very bad deck and I don't enjoy piloting decks like that but I'm not gonna duesh those guys I like them. My pg if close friends we get through 6 games in 2-3 hours and combo kill each other on turn 2-5 it super fun. What's not fun is taking that deck to my casual group taking a giant dump on them all night then blaming it on a ban I don't like for a list I don't haven't follow since it's not a tournament format. Ask them to play it if they say no we have options
A] find a new pg yours seems not on the same page Anyway if you can't find one like minded tough luck
B} suck it up
C ) act like a child
Like I said before majority normally rules if your 7 man pg has 5 guys who don't like the ban it's probly still going to be played inversely probly not.
An increased number of terrible games after a ban that was ostensibly meant to decrease the number of terrible games proves a pretty clear point. Thanks for coming out though.
An angry kid going out of his way to ruin games to begrudge a ban proves the ban was generally inappropriate? Lucky friends you have.
An increased number of terrible games after a ban that was ostensibly meant to decrease the number of terrible games proves a pretty clear point. Thanks for coming out though.
1) What card are you going to put in that is less fun than Sylvan?
2) I don't think your logic is quite working, unless you happen to be playing EDH with members of the RC. Otherwise, you are just making the game LESS FUN ON PURPOSE for your friends. That doesn't seem too cool.
Honestly I don't know other players' metas but I do not by any means think the Sylvan's ban was "baseless". Any abusable card used in an unabused manner will seem fair. I can't deny that in my Mono Green deck was not threatening at all but in my Golgari deck, though i tended not to try to abuse it, could be very very easily abused. Turn 2 Sylvan can decimate the field and leave you incredibly, and stupidly advanced. My friend's Karador deck did it with incredibly consistency.
I do feel like some players like to hide the fact of how powerful certain cards could be. I loved Prime time too but when it was banned I wasn't surprised the utility and the effectiveness out of one creature. Entire games revolved around that single card.
So these players will use any excuse to keep continuing on their ways.
An increased number of terrible games after a ban that was ostensibly meant to decrease the number of terrible games proves a pretty clear point. Thanks for coming out though.
1) What card are you going to put in that is less fun than Sylvan?
2) I don't think your logic is quite working, unless you happen to be playing EDH with members of the RC. Otherwise, you are just making the game LESS FUN ON PURPOSE for your friends. That doesn't seem too cool.
It's roughly the same logic as if Iran said "You won't let us use nuclear bombs? Fine! We'll use chemical and biological weapons. That way you think 'oh, things are worse now than when we banned nuclear bombs' and decide to retract the decision."
What *is* fair is to admit that the RC's banned list are frequently as effective as trying to save the Titanic from sinking by scooping out water with a thimble. Don't misunderstand my point, I agree completely that Sylvan Primordial was bad for the format, however I believe that the list of cards necessary to ban in order to sincerely improve the format is substantially lengthier than the RC is willing to ban. It is highly understandable for players to see the RC's ban list as arbitrary and in my personal experience it lacks a connection with reality. The hilarious part of this being that I personally know a member of the RC that plays at my LGS but on the EDH night he picks who he wants to play with at his table while everyone else gets randomly assigned players. He intentionally limits himself to playing with people he likes to play with. From the standpoint of someone who likes playing with friends, I understand this; however, from the perspective of him having any real familiarity with the meta for all of EDH (and not just his close knit group of friends), he's extremely out of touch and instituting an intentional mechanism to avoid any possibility of noticing problems.
I would much rather WotC took over the ban list for EDH given the level of disconnect I've seen between the RC and the playerbase as a whole.
Yeah, I am pretty sure that if Iran did that, it wouldn't quite work out. "Look we banned nukes and now they're using chem warfare! This obviously shows how wrong we were banning nukes! Give them nukes back, pronto!" Brilliant plan!
As far as banning more cards, look how much people flipped out about Sylvan. I wouldn't have minded a Deadeye ban, but that's mainly because he is so damn efficient at what he does, and ETB triggers are strong enough without multiple recursions. (And this is from someone who plays a blink deck.)
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This issue is one of the reasons EDH is starting to feel a bit "solved" to me, a lot of people want to use just the best cards in their deck (which I can understand to a degree), but it seems gone are the days of innovation in decks. There are at least 13,000 cards in the card pool (ok, some are very bad/not suited for the format I'll admit), but it seems most decks are Commander + X good cards of their colors + lands + ramp with a seasoning of synergistic cards to taste.
I was ecstatic when my playgroup went "Oh, he got banned? Sweet, now I have a slot for X!" (Especially when one of them is trying the one shot Scroll Rack in Credit Voucher, quickly becoming my favorite hidden gem) rather than replace it with good card X or slotting Terastodon/Woodfall Primus in it's place.
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I don't really care if someone uses their own list at home, but you're not playing EDH, you're playing your own format. Yeah yeah, the ban list is just a guide line blah blah blah. That c.f. ones with not being a tournament sanctioned format, but IMO it's like playing any other format at home and using it's official list as jud t a guide line.
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Many are not responsible with powerful tools at their disposal. Cards that make you do autonomous things (which happen to be miserable to play against) shouldn't be welcomed. Tutors are also making people "stupid". Many tutor because they feel the need to, and not because the situation requires it.
Take note that other than power level, price, and availability, cards are banned because they hurt the spirit of the format. If not enough people were speaking against the vile monstrosity that is Sylvan Primordial, it wouldn't have been banned. People aren't responsible with it.
In addition, the mandatory requirement makes the caster feel bad about it when innocent lands get blown up. But let's be honest with ourselves. Who doesn't want to get ahead with even more lands?
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This was the general consensus I've noticed with Primeval Titan. People were upset and slow to move on, but after a while they could see a noticeable improvement.[/quote]
I haven't personally seen any improvement. Of course, I haven't personally seen any card on the list horribly abused despite seeing nearly all remotely fair cards on the list played before and after bans. I was actually contemplating cutting Primeval Titan for another Explosive Vegetation variant when I heard about it being considered for a ban. I was all WTF?!? It's good in standard, but I don't understand in commander. I guess that's why the ban list is mostly for playing against random people.
In the best case scenario they are simply ignorant and don't realize that the mtgcommander rules are official and Wizards is just slow at updating.
In the worst case scenario they are deliberately abusing Wizards being slow and trying to break the rules with a flimsy excuse to deny accountability and responsibility.
In both cases I suggest informing them of the mtgcommander rules being official, try to find some other proof of that if they ask, and try to be nice. If they downright refuse to listen or refuse to take out Sylvan even after understanding the rules, then I suggest keeping that in mind any time you interact with them in the future. It's a big mark against someone's character.
Edit: If people want to have a reasonable discussion about making a homeruled banlist that should be considered. However, I would strongly recommend against unbanning just Sylvan Primordial. In almost all cases choosing to homerule away the most recent change is just people being stubborn and overreacting. These things really need time to sink in and take effect and really be understood, so it's not worth immediately discounting.
However, if people want the most recent change redacted in addition to a bunch of other things it's almost certainly more thought out, although I would still suggest against the most recent change being redacted for at least a month or two for the same reasons.
And finally, make sure it's a reasoned discussion. Not "screw the rules commitee, they suck! You can all play Sylvan anyway because that banlist is dumb." Someone saying that isn't coming to their conclusion logically or rationally, and isn't really worth considering.
People are free to ignore any banned list they want, but the rest of the table is going to throw a disproportionately large amount of hate your way.
Yeah, see, it's attitudes like this that make casual EDH players dread finding new people to play with. There's Standard, Modern, Legacy, Vintage... what's wrong with wanting to play an EDH game that isn't ultra-competitive?
The reason I play EDH is because A) it's relatively cheap compared to other formats and B) I love seeing new cards, new interactions, etc. Magic has a rich history, and there's quite a few interesting cards that don't get played in any other format because they're .000005% worse than another card that could take that slot.
Re: Primordial, I'm surprised they didn't ban Deadeye first. (And this is coming from someone with a casual Blink deck.)
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The people whom this thread discuss and who are the problem are those who expect to play cards on the ban list with strangers or with those who have not agreed to exceptions being made. Those people are a legitimate problem. MTG is a game and the rules exist as to have a structured and (relatively) even playing-field amongst people who would otherwise disagree about specific concerns. I don't care *why* you think X rule is good or bad or should be ignored, when you're playing in an environment with other people with whom may not agree with your opinion you are obliged to play by the rules that apply universally.
The best example of this, imo, is a previous posted who mentioned wanting to play a card in a deck that wouldn't be abusing it but who, and this is important, would switch the card out if playing with others who were not ok with the exception. This is PRECISELY what I imagine the RC wants EDH to be like - a place where the rules give everyone a default consensus, but that basic communication skills and a friendly atmosphere can allow those rules to be adapted, increased, ignored or otherwise modified to best fit the players in that specific game.
this gives people enough time to work out and discuss suitable replacements.
if they are reluctant to change after they see it on the site, i would offer suggestions to replace him with.
if they like SP for the ramp - wood elves or any other land searcher could work
if they like him as a destroy effect - woodfall primus or terastodon are good replacements
i'd say teach/offer alternatives and if they still refuse to change, ask if they'd be willing to when you play with them... or just don't play games with them. loneliness often can shift a person's perspective
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What about the new games is causing the issue? My guess would be people reacting like you did and purposely making games miserable to 'prove a point'.
A] find a new pg yours seems not on the same page Anyway if you can't find one like minded tough luck
B} suck it up
C ) act like a child
Like I said before majority normally rules if your 7 man pg has 5 guys who don't like the ban it's probly still going to be played inversely probly not.
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An angry kid going out of his way to ruin games to begrudge a ban proves the ban was generally inappropriate? Lucky friends you have.
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1) What card are you going to put in that is less fun than Sylvan?
2) I don't think your logic is quite working, unless you happen to be playing EDH with members of the RC. Otherwise, you are just making the game LESS FUN ON PURPOSE for your friends. That doesn't seem too cool.
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I do feel like some players like to hide the fact of how powerful certain cards could be. I loved Prime time too but when it was banned I wasn't surprised the utility and the effectiveness out of one creature. Entire games revolved around that single card.
So these players will use any excuse to keep continuing on their ways.
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It's roughly the same logic as if Iran said "You won't let us use nuclear bombs? Fine! We'll use chemical and biological weapons. That way you think 'oh, things are worse now than when we banned nuclear bombs' and decide to retract the decision."
What *is* fair is to admit that the RC's banned list are frequently as effective as trying to save the Titanic from sinking by scooping out water with a thimble. Don't misunderstand my point, I agree completely that Sylvan Primordial was bad for the format, however I believe that the list of cards necessary to ban in order to sincerely improve the format is substantially lengthier than the RC is willing to ban. It is highly understandable for players to see the RC's ban list as arbitrary and in my personal experience it lacks a connection with reality. The hilarious part of this being that I personally know a member of the RC that plays at my LGS but on the EDH night he picks who he wants to play with at his table while everyone else gets randomly assigned players. He intentionally limits himself to playing with people he likes to play with. From the standpoint of someone who likes playing with friends, I understand this; however, from the perspective of him having any real familiarity with the meta for all of EDH (and not just his close knit group of friends), he's extremely out of touch and instituting an intentional mechanism to avoid any possibility of noticing problems.
I would much rather WotC took over the ban list for EDH given the level of disconnect I've seen between the RC and the playerbase as a whole.
As far as banning more cards, look how much people flipped out about Sylvan. I wouldn't have minded a Deadeye ban, but that's mainly because he is so damn efficient at what he does, and ETB triggers are strong enough without multiple recursions. (And this is from someone who plays a blink deck.)
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