I want to discuss a situation that happens at a relatively common rate during larger EDH games I play in. This could likely fall into General as a topic but I'd prefer to see replies from an EDH perspective.
Here's a hypothetical:
Three players are left near the end of a game. Player A knows he will not be surviving player B's combat phase. He's at 1 life, has no outs, a few effective creatures to block with, but something is likely getting through. Player B can use his field of creatures with damge triggers and lifelink to defeat player A or cripple player C this turn and gain some advantage, but not both. Player B decides that C is less likely to sweep the board next turn than A, and his lifelink would keep him around long enough to survive C's turn and win next turn.
B attacks A, and A scoops. No combat triggers, no lifelink, now player B is defenseless and has not received enough life to survive combat with C.
Personally I don't make a practice of scooping at the most critical moment, though I am guilty of scooping "in response" to an Insurrection. I had too many nice things for him to steal, and i woudn't be living past my own creatures beating me down.
Bottom line:
Have you ever had an opponent's scoop ruin your chance at victory? Is it common? Does this happen more or less often in friendlier circles? Is it ever just entertaining?
It's almost expected in my playgroup at this point, if one player is going to win and scooping will prevent them from knocking everyone out, one person, usually the worst positioned guy, will take the fall.
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That is not dead which may eternal lie, and with strange Aeons even death may die.
Real men don't scoop If you can't deal with being beaten, don't play the game. It's different in total lockdown situations where someone grinds your lifetotal 1 at a time though.
It does happen time to time and it's never really an issue with our play group. It's just part of the game.
Most recent example I remember was a game with me as Riku vs. Mimeoplasm and Chainer. Azusa was already knocked out.
Chainer cast Rise of the Dark Realms, which I Reverberate. Chainer just lost his graveyard to Mimeo's Bojuka Bog, and I had no creatures in the graveyard. Mimeo's graveyard had several fatties, but not enough to kill two players in one attack. It was my turn next.
We talked about it. If we go on, I get the creatures. If I kill Mimeo, I lose all the creatures and it's a fight between me and Chainer. If I kill Chainer, I get to swing to kill Mimeo on my next turn, barring a sweeper topdeck from Mimeo.
If Mimeo concedes with the spell on the stack, Chainer and I fight it out with no creatures resurrected because Mimeo's graveyard goes with him. If Chainer concedes with the spell on the stack, Mimeo and I fight it out with no resurrected creatures because he takes Rise with him.
Chainer decides to concede because Mimeo would have a better chance at winning with a full graveyard than him without a graveyard. The game lasts 5-ish more turns, with Mimeo ripping a Living Death off the top but with me tutoring for the Reiterate - Turnabout combo at the end of that turn.
Yeah, this kind of stuff is frowned on in groups I play with.
One of my groups frowns on this behavior (as they should). The other doesn't, which makes me sad. I was just on the wrong side of a ragescoop like this recently.
Most of the time when I see this behavior, it is to prevent the winning guy from getting some resource (sword triggers, lifelink, etc) which strikes me as extremely childish and kingmakery.
Scooping in response to attackers being declared doesn't happen in my EDH community. No one is that petty. Normally a scoop will only happen in a combo situation, or when a spell is cast that ultimately kills everyone.
If the situation you are purposing did happen then we would just allow player B to re declare attackers against player C.
If it was in a tournament situation then it is up to the judge to decide if that would be allowed or not.
My group hasn't had anyone tactically scoop. It's not uncommon for someone to kill themselves in response to a trigger, for example forcing yourself to draw to death with Nin, the pain artist in response to an uncounterable windfall with 40+ cards in hand to keep everyone else alive instead of the windfall-er winning.
I approve the tactical scoop as many other stated it, to prevent a player from killing everyone / infinite combos / lockdown and such, but it doesnt happen that often. But I guess that happens in every tabletop game, if a player has a very strong position all the other remaining players will aid each other in any way possible to stop that player from winning.
If it was in a tournament situation then it is up to the judge to decide if that would be allowed or not.
Yeah definitely, a judge would need to sort that out. I'm more concerned with social acceptance at this point, actually I hadn't considered a tournament environment for the post because I'm not interested in EDH tournaments and my store doesnt hold them.
This seems like it happens every other game on MODO.
Last night I was playing my Aurelia, the Warleader deck against a Purphurous player, a Karona player and a Horde of Notions player. I tutored early for a Sol Ring, and had a pretty quick draw of T2 Umezawa's Jitte, T3 Silverblade Paladin, and was looking to play the General on Turn 5 with enough to equip. Essentially, it was a one hit KO on the board. One player has a Baleful Strix, Lightning Greaves and Ghostly Prison, and the other player a Propaganda as well, so Purphurous was the only player open with no fliers on board. He seemed like the most threatening deck besides, I've seen what he can do before, and he was tapped out. The Horde player has a Gelectrode on board as well to kill my Paladin, so I am thinking that I could really use a lot of counters on Jitte to be able to kill Gelectrode, and still get in through the Ghostly Prison with a lot of power. No such luck. Purphurous concedes as soon as I declare the attack on him, and I get no counters. Since I don't have mana to pay for Propaganda, I can't attack a second time, and so the player untaps with Gelectrode, casts a spell, and has enough to ping my Paladin to death.
If a dead player sees that you have triggers on your attack, they'll just concede automatically 90% of the time. I've got a friend who plays Worldslayer with Tajic, Blade of the Legion as well, and he tells me that the trigger only works maybe 1 out of 5 times that he actually gets it out. Also people just seem to concede, regardless of board position, whenever I see Medomai the Ageless attack.
Poor manners? Yes. It's obviously meant as a needle to that player attacking you. But is it within the rules? Absolutely. Maybe it's unintended when going from a duel-base game into a multiplayer format, but the conceding person in paper is totally correct when they point out that you don't get triggers. Besides, most of them seem to justify to themselves that it's bad manners for you to attack them in the first place before, say, Turn 12. So they'll just spite you any way they can, deny your deck, and then feel totally assured in telling you how angry they are that you attacked them to death in the first place.
Yeah definitely, a judge would need to sort that out. I'm more concerned with social acceptance at this point, actually I hadn't considered a tournament environment for the post because I'm not interested in EDH tournaments and my store doesnt hold them.
Rules state that a player is allowed to concede at literally any time, even in the middle of the resolution of a spell. MODO can only handle a player conceding at certain times, but the rules are more flexible. A judge would always allow a player to concede. Also as far as I can tell, the remaining players could collude with and bribe the defeated player without penalty. One of the main reasons that a tournament EDH scene can't currently work - Collusion.
Besides, most of them seem to justify to themselves that it's bad manners for you to attack them in the first place before, say, Turn 12. So they'll just spite you any way they can, deny your deck, and then feel totally assured in telling you how angry they are that you attacked them to death in the first place.
My group hasn't had anyone tactically scoop. It's not uncommon for someone to kill themselves in response to a trigger, for example forcing yourself to draw to death with Nin, the pain artist in response to an uncounterable windfall with 40+ cards in hand to keep everyone else alive instead of the windfall-er winning.
Well, that is basically the same idea, difference being you happen to have a way to remove yourself that uses the stack.
Objectively, it's well within the bounds of the rules of the game to tactically scoop. There is no debating this as it is a fact.
Subjectively, aka...matter of opinion...it is my opinion that tactically scooping is very poor form. Especially since this is a casual format. Let the player have his cake and eat it too. If you can't....for whatever reason...and feel justified in tactically scooping...well, that'll be the last game you play at my table....or the last game I play at yours.
There are enough players in the format that share eachother's view that we can all live in relative harmony.
Rules state that a player is allowed to concede at literally any time, even in the middle of the resolution of a spell. MODO can only handle a player conceding at certain times, but the rules are more flexible. A judge would always allow a player to concede. Also as far as I can tell, the remaining players could collude with and bribe the defeated player without penalty. One of the main reasons that a tournament EDH scene can't currently work - Collusion.
Thats why even casual games like Risk destroy friendships.
I think that if you need to scoop to stop someone from winning, they probably earned the win because you and the rest of the table have no answers to what they are packing. And yes this win of their's might be a degenerate combo, but that's what their deck was meant to do, and other decks should come prepared with at least a little hate for instant wins.
To avoid getting tactically scooped against can be tough though. There is a decent chance that this is a ragescoop just to spite you, and to avoid that it might be necessary to play a bit more politics earlier in the game, and try not to broadcast your win turns before it happens.
But sometimes there is just nothing you can do about a serial ragescooper.
Indeed, it can happen anytime, it makes things that much more complicated. I find it happens less when one person beats the whole table at once and more when there are three players left and they all know that the first person to remove an opponent is coming in second.
ive had people scoop in response to me slaying the wold with tajic to to keep me from getting the trigger off on the table plenty of times, its annoying at times, but hey, its the rules, so whatever, im not too offended about it.
5 Color Cromat with tons of tutoring that doesn't reveal the card. Play a few classic playing cards, a couple Uno Draw 4s (Ancestral Recall eat your heart out), some basic Pokemon for defense, a Get Out of Jail Free card, and have assembling all five pieces of Exodia be your win condition. People will flip because EXODIA!? IMPOSSIBLE! NOBODY'S EVER BEEN ABLE TO SUMMON HIM!
The "douche scoop" is a bit rude, but on Magic Online, it's something that you come to expect. Just when you were counting on that Nature's Will trigger for your Aggravated Assault, the guy flips you the finger and then you lose to the guy who EoTs Mystical Tutor-->Terminus and faps off to his enchantments and Planeswalkers.
I've told people to not scoop and kept them sitting at the table, even if I'm not forcing the scoop.
WE JUST PLAYED FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF!!! YOU WILL SIT RIGHT THERE AND PLAY THIS OUT!!
And they get it. If you aren't going to finish out a game where you lose, you don't get to play one where you can rob me of my potential win--I wouldn't have played the WHOLE rest of the game to realize a serial scooper was butthurt that he didn't win. its invalidating.\
edit: I would never play commander online.
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Here's a hypothetical:
Three players are left near the end of a game. Player A knows he will not be surviving player B's combat phase. He's at 1 life, has no outs, a few effective creatures to block with, but something is likely getting through. Player B can use his field of creatures with damge triggers and lifelink to defeat player A or cripple player C this turn and gain some advantage, but not both. Player B decides that C is less likely to sweep the board next turn than A, and his lifelink would keep him around long enough to survive C's turn and win next turn.
B attacks A, and A scoops. No combat triggers, no lifelink, now player B is defenseless and has not received enough life to survive combat with C.
Personally I don't make a practice of scooping at the most critical moment, though I am guilty of scooping "in response" to an Insurrection. I had too many nice things for him to steal, and i woudn't be living past my own creatures beating me down.
Bottom line:
Have you ever had an opponent's scoop ruin your chance at victory? Is it common? Does this happen more or less often in friendlier circles? Is it ever just entertaining?
My current meta is pretty competitive so people don't scoop and I'm fairly certain that this would be frowned upon
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60 Card: Grixis Delver, Living End, Shardless BUG, Ninjas
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BGWGhave, Guru of SporesBGW
Aurelia, the Warleader
BDrana, Kalastria BloodchiefB
WBROros, the AvengerWBR
I can understand that, scooping this way depends heavily on how much you like your opponents.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Most recent example I remember was a game with me as Riku vs. Mimeoplasm and Chainer. Azusa was already knocked out.
Chainer cast Rise of the Dark Realms, which I Reverberate. Chainer just lost his graveyard to Mimeo's Bojuka Bog, and I had no creatures in the graveyard. Mimeo's graveyard had several fatties, but not enough to kill two players in one attack. It was my turn next.
We talked about it. If we go on, I get the creatures. If I kill Mimeo, I lose all the creatures and it's a fight between me and Chainer. If I kill Chainer, I get to swing to kill Mimeo on my next turn, barring a sweeper topdeck from Mimeo.
If Mimeo concedes with the spell on the stack, Chainer and I fight it out with no creatures resurrected because Mimeo's graveyard goes with him. If Chainer concedes with the spell on the stack, Mimeo and I fight it out with no resurrected creatures because he takes Rise with him.
Chainer decides to concede because Mimeo would have a better chance at winning with a full graveyard than him without a graveyard. The game lasts 5-ish more turns, with Mimeo ripping a Living Death off the top but with me tutoring for the Reiterate - Turnabout combo at the end of that turn.
TL;DR - It makes the game more interesting.
One of my groups frowns on this behavior (as they should). The other doesn't, which makes me sad. I was just on the wrong side of a ragescoop like this recently.
Most of the time when I see this behavior, it is to prevent the winning guy from getting some resource (sword triggers, lifelink, etc) which strikes me as extremely childish and kingmakery.
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If the situation you are purposing did happen then we would just allow player B to re declare attackers against player C.
If it was in a tournament situation then it is up to the judge to decide if that would be allowed or not.
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Yeah definitely, a judge would need to sort that out. I'm more concerned with social acceptance at this point, actually I hadn't considered a tournament environment for the post because I'm not interested in EDH tournaments and my store doesnt hold them.
Last night I was playing my Aurelia, the Warleader deck against a Purphurous player, a Karona player and a Horde of Notions player. I tutored early for a Sol Ring, and had a pretty quick draw of T2 Umezawa's Jitte, T3 Silverblade Paladin, and was looking to play the General on Turn 5 with enough to equip. Essentially, it was a one hit KO on the board. One player has a Baleful Strix, Lightning Greaves and Ghostly Prison, and the other player a Propaganda as well, so Purphurous was the only player open with no fliers on board. He seemed like the most threatening deck besides, I've seen what he can do before, and he was tapped out. The Horde player has a Gelectrode on board as well to kill my Paladin, so I am thinking that I could really use a lot of counters on Jitte to be able to kill Gelectrode, and still get in through the Ghostly Prison with a lot of power. No such luck. Purphurous concedes as soon as I declare the attack on him, and I get no counters. Since I don't have mana to pay for Propaganda, I can't attack a second time, and so the player untaps with Gelectrode, casts a spell, and has enough to ping my Paladin to death.
If a dead player sees that you have triggers on your attack, they'll just concede automatically 90% of the time. I've got a friend who plays Worldslayer with Tajic, Blade of the Legion as well, and he tells me that the trigger only works maybe 1 out of 5 times that he actually gets it out. Also people just seem to concede, regardless of board position, whenever I see Medomai the Ageless attack.
Poor manners? Yes. It's obviously meant as a needle to that player attacking you. But is it within the rules? Absolutely. Maybe it's unintended when going from a duel-base game into a multiplayer format, but the conceding person in paper is totally correct when they point out that you don't get triggers. Besides, most of them seem to justify to themselves that it's bad manners for you to attack them in the first place before, say, Turn 12. So they'll just spite you any way they can, deny your deck, and then feel totally assured in telling you how angry they are that you attacked them to death in the first place.
EDIT:
Rules state that a player is allowed to concede at literally any time, even in the middle of the resolution of a spell. MODO can only handle a player conceding at certain times, but the rules are more flexible. A judge would always allow a player to concede. Also as far as I can tell, the remaining players could collude with and bribe the defeated player without penalty. One of the main reasons that a tournament EDH scene can't currently work - Collusion.
I love playing with hypocrites.
Well, that is basically the same idea, difference being you happen to have a way to remove yourself that uses the stack.
Objectively, it's well within the bounds of the rules of the game to tactically scoop. There is no debating this as it is a fact.
Subjectively, aka...matter of opinion...it is my opinion that tactically scooping is very poor form. Especially since this is a casual format. Let the player have his cake and eat it too. If you can't....for whatever reason...and feel justified in tactically scooping...well, that'll be the last game you play at my table....or the last game I play at yours.
There are enough players in the format that share eachother's view that we can all live in relative harmony.
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Agreed, I can't play against people I havent at least met, its to easy to just flip off the table and vanish.
Thats why even casual games like Risk destroy friendships.
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To avoid getting tactically scooped against can be tough though. There is a decent chance that this is a ragescoop just to spite you, and to avoid that it might be necessary to play a bit more politics earlier in the game, and try not to broadcast your win turns before it happens.
But sometimes there is just nothing you can do about a serial ragescooper.
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WE JUST PLAYED FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF!!! YOU WILL SIT RIGHT THERE AND PLAY THIS OUT!!
And they get it. If you aren't going to finish out a game where you lose, you don't get to play one where you can rob me of my potential win--I wouldn't have played the WHOLE rest of the game to realize a serial scooper was butthurt that he didn't win. its invalidating.\
edit: I would never play commander online.