The thread is about an article called "21 Cards Your Games Might Be Better Without", what do you expect us to talk about?
Derailing would be if I discussed cards that weren't on that list.
Who are the RC?
They are the Rules Committee, they make the rules.
They don't decide what is fun and what isn't, they decide what cards they find unfun and then ban it.
If you disagree with them then make up your own format and stop pretending that you are playing EDH.
Reasonable people can come to a consensus on what is or is not fun for the masses. Some things are more fun than other things for most people. Discouraging things that most people would find unfun, such as mass LD, is a good thing because it means that less people will play these unfun strategies and Commander will attract more players.
Can't believe this thread is still open. Sheldon really opened a can of worms than didn't need to be opened. If the attitude is "playgroups regulate yourself" , then just do away with the ban list all together and let playgroups do that. If not, a serious look at the list needs to be taken and a head member of the RC should not be tossing around ideas on cards that we'd better off without so freely.
I understand that Sheldon is a very influential person to the EDH scene, there are people in my playgroup that to put it plainly worship the man. I also agree that what is written is his opinions and he is not telling people they can't play them. But alot of his choices I disagree with. What I disagree with most is the idea that it is clear he is biased, I agree with most of the people when they say "to sum it up, if your not playing ramp, your not being friendly".
As I said there are players in my play group that pretty much worship him. I can see something like this causing drama as they are the often ones to call people out on stuff the fastest "Oh that's a douche move" is one of their favorite things to say and often they wont drop it.
I personally do not play any of those cards, not my style but a good amount of other players in my group does....Nothing really has been said before about these cards being played other than "Oh damn....that just happened" now we will be hearing the "That's a Douche Move" that often causes people to start going back and forth.
Lets just ban Sheldon from Edh. He's the direct cause of all this complaining.
I'm about 99% sure this is sarcasm, but honestly sometimes I think the format would be far better off with WotC moderating the ban list.
Nothing against Sheldon or the RC but I feel like the fan base for the format has gotten too widespread and diverse for the RC to effectively moderate it or even fully understand everyone who plays it.
There are people out their who will play EDH like it's nothing but vintage with training wheels, and gladly crush casual players they have no business playing against then tell them they're doing it wrong.
At current the RC endorsed ban list is only a few steps forward from playing cowboys and indians in the back yard arguing who shot who first until we're all blue in the face.
There are people out their who will play EDH like it's nothing but vintage with training wheels, and gladly crush casual players they have no business playing against then tell them they're doing it wrong.
Those players would do the same in 60-card casual multiplayer, I'm sure.
I'm about 99% sure this is sarcasm, but honestly sometimes I think the format would be far better off with WotC moderating the ban list.
Nothing against Sheldon or the RC but I feel like the fan base for the format has gotten too widespread and diverse for the RC to effectively moderate it or even fully understand everyone who plays it.
There are people out their who will play EDH like it's nothing but vintage with training wheels, and gladly crush casual players they have no business playing against then tell them they're doing it wrong.
At current the RC endorsed ban list is only a few steps forward from playing cowboys and indians in the back yard arguing who shot who first until we're all blue in the face.
Well, we won't know because the RC and WotC have refused to take any affirmative action on it. A lot of the stuff said about the format completely flies in the face of the very reason you have ban lits, format organization, and marketing.
In this article for example, Sheldon says he doesn't want to enforce his idea of the format through bannings. Meanwhile, one of the very purposes of a ban list is to market a format. WotC has no problem enforcing its vision of Modern as a Turn 4 and after format. They make repeated official statements to that effect. The fact that there's fun to be had outside those constraints doesn't bother them. But the RC just seems to be acting scared.
So who knows what a ramp-dominated format would actually play like? We don't have one. We have this garbage instead where effective control against ramp is simply taboo, and you're just supposed to know that you need to get an ok from other people to play it. Ramp is dominant by collective force rather than by strategy.
Thinking on it more, I'm concluding that the only reason Vicious Shadows, Magister Sphinx and the like were included in the article is because Sheldon needed somewhere to hang his hat when the criticism came up that he just favors ramp and hates anti-ramp. Here's the criticism anyway. I find it hard to believe that VS, Sphinx and such are actually ending games often enough, even in the most casual groups, to warrant complaints. And yes, no one ever complained about what their life total was after a game that they won. Complaints are reserved exclusively for things that people lose to. It's just the way it is.
Reading the article again, I found a funny quote:
"Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur: Sure, anyone can get around it with Reliquary Tower, and yes, it costs ten mana. If it couldn't come out before turn 10, I might shrug at it, but too often I find that it's either cheated out (like with Entomb / Animate Dead) or ramped into early in the game, making it drudgery."
Bolded emphasis mine. Someone's spent the first 6 turns at least ramping to 10 mana, and the guy still thinks it's "early in the game". I just can't relate to this player segment anymore. If someone hard casts Jin-Jin Turn 7 on an empty board and it's decisive, I'm probably grateful for the game to have ended because it was shaping out to be a durdle fest. Not saying I haven't played in my share of durdle-on-durdle. I just find it really odd to hear complaints when such games end as a result of durdle. No counter, no denial, good game. But in some parts apparently, the game's just getting started and you're a meanie for playing effective things.
Bolded emphasis mine. Someone's spent the first 6 turns at least ramping to 10 mana, and the guy still thinks it's "early in the game". I just can't relate to this player segment anymore. If someone hard casts Jin-Jin Turn 7 on an empty board and it's decisive, I'm probably grateful for the game to have ended because it was shaping out to be a durdle fest. Not saying I haven't played in my share of durdle-on-durdle. I just find it really odd to hear complaints when such games end as a result of durdle. No counter, no denial, good game. But in some parts apparently, the game's just getting started and you're a meanie for playing effective things.
It doesn't have to be turn 7. Ancient Tomb, Mana Crypt, Thran Dynamo, Coalition Relic creates a turn 2 play. I'm sure there's ton of other ways to hardcast it or
reanimate it in the first 4 turns.
The RC aren't arbiters of fun. They try to govern the health of the format.
Ok so it's supposed to be a fun format. I think they have limited themselves only to banning things that are very egregious offenders. "You can't beat it so join it" types of things
They're never going to be like well we don't think merfolk are fun so no merfolk, they're banned. That's not happening
Man, I feel bad for Sheldon. Having every single word you say overanalyzed and miscronstrued to hell and back must be a nightmare.
People just can't seem to get their heads around the fact that Sheldon, despite being a member of the RC, is still allowed to have his own opinions that are divorced from the RC's intentions and rulings. Seriously, what if Bennie Smith had posted this same article? This thread likely wouldn't even exist.
Man, I feel bad for Sheldon. Having every single word you say overanalyzed and miscronstrued to hell and back must be a nightmare.
People just can't seem to get their heads around the fact that Sheldon, despite being a member of the RC, is still allowed to have his own opinions that are divorced from the RC's intentions and rulings. Seriously, what if Bennie Smith had posted this same article? This thread likely wouldn't even exist.
This point has been refuted to death. If the King doesn't like being King, he can abdicate. But try to put on a ball cap instead of a crown and no one is fooled.
This point has been refuted to death. If the King doesn't like being King, he can abdicate. But try to put on a ball cap instead of a crown and no one is fooled.
The King... of what, exactly? Sheldon isn't the only person on the Rules Committee.
The King... of what, exactly? Sheldon isn't the only person on the Rules Committee.
He is the most visible member of the Rules Committee, and his words carry a lot of weight within the EDH community.
While I agree he is allowed to have opinions as an individual that differ from his role in the RC, for some people that distinction is difficult to grasp. So when Sheldon comes out and says something some people will automatically assume that is an official position from the RC, even if Sheldon himself says it isn't. That is the nature of association.
Well, it's not exactly irrational association. Being able to plant your personal self into one garden, your professional self into another, and then only water one and not the other just seems to be an idea that educators sell children on to get them to trust the government more. Then when those children are college age, it's something that the rest of the educators disabuse them of.
If my local cops are privately racist, then enforcement is going to be racist. No way around that.
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The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Derailing would be if I discussed cards that weren't on that list.
Who are the RC?
They are the Rules Committee, they make the rules.
They don't decide what is fun and what isn't, they decide what cards they find unfun and then ban it.
If you disagree with them then make up your own format and stop pretending that you are playing EDH.
As I said there are players in my play group that pretty much worship him. I can see something like this causing drama as they are the often ones to call people out on stuff the fastest "Oh that's a douche move" is one of their favorite things to say and often they wont drop it.
I personally do not play any of those cards, not my style but a good amount of other players in my group does....Nothing really has been said before about these cards being played other than "Oh damn....that just happened" now we will be hearing the "That's a Douche Move" that often causes people to start going back and forth.
Oh well....its all opinions at the end of the day
BURPerfectly Suited to Mindless Carnage, ThraximundarRUB
URBOckham's Mindrazer = Nekusar the MindrazerBRU
UBRMarchsea makes all the Men do Stupid ThingsRBU
GWBThe Best Offense is Defense, Doran 2.0BWG
XRDaretti, Artifact ShenanigansRX
RKrenko the Don of the Goblin MobR
GFreyalise and Elves have pet HydrasG
WArmy of the Heavens, Lead by the Angel of HopeW
BDrana, The Removal BloodchiefB
UAzami, Knowledge is PowerU
WBDaxos is Enchanting Enchantments to Enchant more EnchantsBW
GRI got 99 Permanents but Primal Surge ain't One, Ruric TharRG
GBNel Thot's Sacrificial SwarmBG
WRWifey's Wrath - Gisela Blade of GoldnightRW
WUPillowfort Tron - BrunaUW
XXThe TriadXX
Do you have what it takes to survive?
I'm about 99% sure this is sarcasm, but honestly sometimes I think the format would be far better off with WotC moderating the ban list.
Nothing against Sheldon or the RC but I feel like the fan base for the format has gotten too widespread and diverse for the RC to effectively moderate it or even fully understand everyone who plays it.
There are people out their who will play EDH like it's nothing but vintage with training wheels, and gladly crush casual players they have no business playing against then tell them they're doing it wrong.
At current the RC endorsed ban list is only a few steps forward from playing cowboys and indians in the back yard arguing who shot who first until we're all blue in the face.
Those players would do the same in 60-card casual multiplayer, I'm sure.
Well, we won't know because the RC and WotC have refused to take any affirmative action on it. A lot of the stuff said about the format completely flies in the face of the very reason you have ban lits, format organization, and marketing.
In this article for example, Sheldon says he doesn't want to enforce his idea of the format through bannings. Meanwhile, one of the very purposes of a ban list is to market a format. WotC has no problem enforcing its vision of Modern as a Turn 4 and after format. They make repeated official statements to that effect. The fact that there's fun to be had outside those constraints doesn't bother them. But the RC just seems to be acting scared.
So who knows what a ramp-dominated format would actually play like? We don't have one. We have this garbage instead where effective control against ramp is simply taboo, and you're just supposed to know that you need to get an ok from other people to play it. Ramp is dominant by collective force rather than by strategy.
Thinking on it more, I'm concluding that the only reason Vicious Shadows, Magister Sphinx and the like were included in the article is because Sheldon needed somewhere to hang his hat when the criticism came up that he just favors ramp and hates anti-ramp. Here's the criticism anyway. I find it hard to believe that VS, Sphinx and such are actually ending games often enough, even in the most casual groups, to warrant complaints. And yes, no one ever complained about what their life total was after a game that they won. Complaints are reserved exclusively for things that people lose to. It's just the way it is.
Reading the article again, I found a funny quote:
Bolded emphasis mine. Someone's spent the first 6 turns at least ramping to 10 mana, and the guy still thinks it's "early in the game". I just can't relate to this player segment anymore. If someone hard casts Jin-Jin Turn 7 on an empty board and it's decisive, I'm probably grateful for the game to have ended because it was shaping out to be a durdle fest. Not saying I haven't played in my share of durdle-on-durdle. I just find it really odd to hear complaints when such games end as a result of durdle. No counter, no denial, good game. But in some parts apparently, the game's just getting started and you're a meanie for playing effective things.
It doesn't have to be turn 7. Ancient Tomb, Mana Crypt, Thran Dynamo, Coalition Relic creates a turn 2 play. I'm sure there's ton of other ways to hardcast it or
reanimate it in the first 4 turns.
Ok so it's supposed to be a fun format. I think they have limited themselves only to banning things that are very egregious offenders. "You can't beat it so join it" types of things
They're never going to be like well we don't think merfolk are fun so no merfolk, they're banned. That's not happening
People just can't seem to get their heads around the fact that Sheldon, despite being a member of the RC, is still allowed to have his own opinions that are divorced from the RC's intentions and rulings. Seriously, what if Bennie Smith had posted this same article? This thread likely wouldn't even exist.
GGG [Primer] Omnath, Big Green Beatstick Machine GGG
This point has been refuted to death. If the King doesn't like being King, he can abdicate. But try to put on a ball cap instead of a crown and no one is fooled.
The King... of what, exactly? Sheldon isn't the only person on the Rules Committee.
He is the most visible member of the Rules Committee, and his words carry a lot of weight within the EDH community.
While I agree he is allowed to have opinions as an individual that differ from his role in the RC, for some people that distinction is difficult to grasp. So when Sheldon comes out and says something some people will automatically assume that is an official position from the RC, even if Sheldon himself says it isn't. That is the nature of association.
If my local cops are privately racist, then enforcement is going to be racist. No way around that.