The goal here is to come up with a suite of cards that can be used to combat ramp without doing the following:
1.) Resorting to combo
2.) Excessive collateral damage
The goal is to strike a balance between punishing ramp/undermining it without drawing the ire of the non-rampers. For example, Ruination is a great way to wind the clock back on the guy who is vomiting duals onto the table but the guys playing Zedruu and Thraximundar don't see that, they see their board states getting crippled.
This is a thought experiment. Any contributions are welcome.
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There is Land Equilibrium which is only an option if you're in blue. Then there is Ward of Bones which would be perfect except that it costs 6. I'd suggest some tax effects but those tend to annoy everyone, not just the ramp player. There's Balancing Act, this one isn't really mld but does a decent job of putting everyone on the same level. On that note there is also Restore Balance if you're willing to wait the 6 turns or have some way to cheat cast it. These are all I could think of for now.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
I was in a five player game a week ago where a player decided to cast Price of Progress. The Damia player with 30+ (I think it was 33) lands took... 6 damage. So did Kaalia (at ~10 lands) and myself (at 5 lands), while Trostani and the mono-red player that cast it took 4 damage.
While good on paper, I find that ramping players (or at least, green decks that intentionally set out to ramp) tend to use such a concentration of basics that Price to Progress ends up effectively whiffing.
I was in a five player game a week ago where a player decided to cast Price of Progress. The Damia player with 30+ (I think it was 33) lands took... 6 damage. So did Kaalia (at ~10 lands) and myself (at 5 lands), while Trostani and the mono-red player that cast it took 4 damage.
While good on paper, I find that ramping players (or at least, green decks that intentionally set out to ramp) tend to use such a concentration of basics that Price to Progress ends up effectively whiffing.
Price of Progress does nothing to slow them down except deal a nonlethal amount of damage... once.
It's not that good.
Hm, I guess it depends on the meta. I run into decks that play more non-basics than basics enough that it can be useful. Usually lethal with Hive Mind and most people don't mind that as much as the pacts. But you're right, it probably won't stop most mono Green ramp decks that are just spitting out Forests. For what it's worth though, if you glance through all of the 3 color Multiplayer Primers, you'll see an awful lot of non-basics.
Curse of echoes on the green ramp player early enough erases their advantage. Anyone who has been in a game with New Frontiers or Collective Voyage how quickly a massively ramped game degenerates, and it's almost never the ramp player that is at an advantage.
Curse of echoes on the green ramp player early enough erases their advantage. Anyone who has been in a game with New Frontiers or Collective Voyage how quickly a massively ramped game degenerates, and it's almost never the ramp player that is at an advantage.
That actually sounds really good. I wish I had thought of that!
Price of Progress was a great card back when Primeval Titan was legal. I could regularly deal 20+ damage to a player, but now I agree that it's not nearly as cool.
For reference, I did a similar thread back at the beginning of the year (but it fell to the wayside). It's here, if you want some more ideas.
Tunnel Ignus is like a baby Zo-Zu that only punishes the ramp player. Ruination is pretty underwhelming against the green decks, my Zegana deck is super ramp and only runs like 6 non basics. Gilt-Leaf Archdruid is hilarious against ramp if you can pull it off. Hokori, Dust Drinker can really slow the table down. Leonin Arbiter really taxes ramp spells and comes down early enough to matter. Stranglehold does a ton of work.
It took many years, but players are warming up to the idea of basic lands. Surprise surprise, nonbasic land hate got the better of them. You used to see lists with any nonbasic in that color just because they COULD run it. I remember aruging with players in 2010 that blood moon and friends will just wreck their days, but no one listened
In my opinion, equalibrium effects work best. However, no matter what you do, you draw hate. It's sad really. Theyre "HARMLESSLY" ramping out, while youre pushing "HATE" their way for no good reason. I get this all the time in my lands build, or when my Omnath friend is ramping out. Players will turn on whose hurting that player generally.
Id suggest even ways to even the playing field. Maybe hating them isnt always the best idea too. The white oath from the Oath cycle is more group hug and lets everyone ramp.
I think my next Mono-Red is going to be Zo-Zu the Punisher because turbo-hyper ramp is annoying. That being said, I doubt I'll be running Ankh or Ignus because unlike Zo-Zu, I can't guarantee that they'll be out early enough to matter. However, I have gotten two of the three out at once before, which was painful.
It depends on deck and color. My Kozilek, Butcher of Truth EDH deck uses Winter Orb and would use Storm Cauldron if people started playing more green ramp in my meta.
Storm Cauldron is amazing in some decks, considering you're able to tap your lands for mana before playing it, being less negatively affected by it. (Unlike stuff like Winter Orb, which almost assuredly means you'll have lands not untap.)
Another option is using Land Tax and/or Burgeoning. Make their land ramp your land ramp.
You can also think about Volcanic Awakening. In my Riku deck I'll drop that sucker turn 5-6 with a storm count of 4ish and make at least 1 or 2 people scoop or just be left in the dust. It'll draw hate, but won't backfire.
You could also run Armageddon and it's ilk. If they get 25/40 of their lands out on turn 6-7, you dropping this means they're probably crippled. They've thinned their deck and probably already cast all their ramp spells, so you're pretty much home free.
There's more options, but these should get you started. Do remember that Planar Cleansing tends to put a lot of non-blue ramp into top deck mode, which you can avoid due to not over-extending.
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My Decks:
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUBCheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
Cataclysm. Seriously. Everybody gets one of each. Nice and fair. And by this time the ramp player has usually used up all of their ramp spells so they tend to stall out.
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"Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered,
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
Oath of Lieges: Basically nullifies ramp. Everyone will have around the same amount of land.. but that is A LOT so be wary of that. Everyone will essentially ramp one land per turn, except the ramp player who will be the one expending cards.
Winter Orb: Pretty self-explanatory, if they can only untap one land per turn all that land doesn't matter. Just make sure to pack a lot of mana rocks with this, and ways to protect yourself from artifact destruction. Stranglehold: Completely cuts off ramp's ability to search for lands, while also hosing your other opponents. You will want it early to really affect the ramp, though.
Keldon Firebombers is my personal favorite for saying "OOOOOOO-Kay let's just hold our horses a bit." It punishes the player that overextended by ramping all the lands out of their deck, but it typically does not turn the game in to a dull procession of "Draw, go," for 4 turns.
Plus there's that new creature they just printed in Theros: Ember Swallower.
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1.) Resorting to combo
2.) Excessive collateral damage
The goal is to strike a balance between punishing ramp/undermining it without drawing the ire of the non-rampers. For example, Ruination is a great way to wind the clock back on the guy who is vomiting duals onto the table but the guys playing Zedruu and Thraximundar don't see that, they see their board states getting crippled.
This is a thought experiment. Any contributions are welcome.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Do these fit your criteria?
I was in a five player game a week ago where a player decided to cast Price of Progress. The Damia player with 30+ (I think it was 33) lands took... 6 damage. So did Kaalia (at ~10 lands) and myself (at 5 lands), while Trostani and the mono-red player that cast it took 4 damage.
While good on paper, I find that ramping players (or at least, green decks that intentionally set out to ramp) tend to use such a concentration of basics that Price to Progress ends up effectively whiffing.
It's not that good.
Hm, I guess it depends on the meta. I run into decks that play more non-basics than basics enough that it can be useful. Usually lethal with Hive Mind and most people don't mind that as much as the pacts. But you're right, it probably won't stop most mono Green ramp decks that are just spitting out Forests. For what it's worth though, if you glance through all of the 3 color Multiplayer Primers, you'll see an awful lot of non-basics.
[Primer] WBR Tariel: You'll Thank Me For This WBR [Primer]
GGG Dosan of the Green Rainbow GGG
RWU Zedruu: I Ain't Even Mad RWU
Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder
Momir Vig, Simic Visionary
Darien, King of Kjeldor
Braids, Conjurer Adept
Mirri, Cat Warrior
Korona, False God (slivers)
Skeleton Ship
Mirror Mastery
That actually sounds really good. I wish I had thought of that!
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For reference, I did a similar thread back at the beginning of the year (but it fell to the wayside). It's here, if you want some more ideas.
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Now, for the land searching, something like Aven Mindcensor would probably work better as a counter measure than Price of Progress.
In my opinion, equalibrium effects work best. However, no matter what you do, you draw hate. It's sad really. Theyre "HARMLESSLY" ramping out, while youre pushing "HATE" their way for no good reason. I get this all the time in my lands build, or when my Omnath friend is ramping out. Players will turn on whose hurting that player generally.
Id suggest even ways to even the playing field. Maybe hating them isnt always the best idea too. The white oath from the Oath cycle is more group hug and lets everyone ramp.
GB [Primer][Competitive][Stax][Combo] Meren of Clan Nel Toth 95% RETIRED
UW [Primer][Competitive][Combo][Stax] Brago, King Eternal RETIRED
BR Rakdos, Lord of Riots (75%)
G Titania - 75%
W SRAM - Welcome to the cheeri0s jam 95%
U Teferi - stax 100%
R Neheb - janky mono red eggs combo 90%
B Gonti - 50% valuetown
RRRAshling, the PilgrimRRR
UUUThadda Adel, AcquisitorUUU
Storm Cauldron is amazing in some decks, considering you're able to tap your lands for mana before playing it, being less negatively affected by it. (Unlike stuff like Winter Orb, which almost assuredly means you'll have lands not untap.)
Another option is using Land Tax and/or Burgeoning. Make their land ramp your land ramp.
You can also think about Volcanic Awakening. In my Riku deck I'll drop that sucker turn 5-6 with a storm count of 4ish and make at least 1 or 2 people scoop or just be left in the dust. It'll draw hate, but won't backfire.
You could also run Armageddon and it's ilk. If they get 25/40 of their lands out on turn 6-7, you dropping this means they're probably crippled. They've thinned their deck and probably already cast all their ramp spells, so you're pretty much home free.
You can play Aven Mindcensor Mindlock Orb or Stranglehold. Most ramp involves searching.
There's more options, but these should get you started. Do remember that Planar Cleansing tends to put a lot of non-blue ramp into top deck mode, which you can avoid due to not over-extending.
Aggro: WUBRGHorde of Notions Goodstuff, RUB Cheesy Aggro, GR Xenagod Gruul Goodstuff
Control: GWBGhave, Guru of Adaptability, UBWrexial, Milling Deep UAzami, Lady of No Infinite Combos GWU Derevi, Tempo Beats
Other: URGRiku of Too Much Mana, WUBRG Sliver Queen Enchantress
How about a Hallowed Burial?
those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid.
Thus the wise win before the fight, while the ignorant fight to win."
Oath of Lieges: Basically nullifies ramp. Everyone will have around the same amount of land.. but that is A LOT so be wary of that. Everyone will essentially ramp one land per turn, except the ramp player who will be the one expending cards.
Winter Orb: Pretty self-explanatory, if they can only untap one land per turn all that land doesn't matter. Just make sure to pack a lot of mana rocks with this, and ways to protect yourself from artifact destruction.
Stranglehold: Completely cuts off ramp's ability to search for lands, while also hosing your other opponents. You will want it early to really affect the ramp, though.
Username: Cabz
You tap out for Explosive Vegetation? Take 10 damage/7 general damage/5 infect. You feel like tapping out for Sylvan Primordial next turn?
Sydri's Magical Castle WUB
Chainer, Dementia Master: "Bring out your dead!" BBB
Riku Because Copying Decimate URG
Xira Arien, Jund StaxBRG
The Sylvan-Primordial-PlasmBUG
Trostani ComboGW
Vizkopa Guildmage - Peasant VariantBW
Plus there's that new creature they just printed in Theros: Ember Swallower.
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