I think Reap and Sow should replace Mwonvuli Acid-Moss. Entwined Reap does cost 2 more than Acid-Moss, but I think it's worth it. You can get any land instead of just a Forest, and it comes in untapped.
I think Reap and Sow should replace Mwonvuli Acid-Moss. Entwined Reap does cost 2 more than Acid-Moss, but I think it's worth it. You can get any land instead of just a Forest, and it comes in untapped.
I'm very back and forth about that, but I changed it back to Reap and Sow for now.
I definitely second Unmake. 3 mana, instant speed exile of any creature is very hard to beat.
In competitive Commander, life gain is very insignificant so I consider Unmake and Swords to Plowshares essentially equivalent except for the mana cost. It might find its way near the bottom of the list at some point... Perhaps in place of a charm.
Spin into Myth: Yes, it's five mana, but it's also an instant in mono-blue that deals with any creature unconditionally, bypassing anything other than Shroud/Hexproof and Protection from Blue. It also foils reanimate strategies and most importantly, gets rid of a commander semi-permanently. That last part is very important in EDH and is the reason why Bant Charm should in my opinion be ranked in the top ten.
Duplicant: Colorless removal that exiles, gives you a creature that copies the target's P/T, lets you abuse blink mechanics and can in a pinch be recurred with Academy Ruins. This really should be on the EDH list.
Capsize and Shattering Pulse: These cards may seem overpriced, but in the right deck, they are incredibly effective. There's little as annoying as fighting a permission player who, every turn when you announce your end step, goes: "end of turn, snap back your best thing/destroy your best artifact".
Slave of Bolas: Another piece of unconditional removal that is only foiled by Shroud/Hexproof/Protection. Very nice to play against Ulamog.
Intrepid Hero: Remember that we're talking about a format where 5/5 is considered "medium-sized". This guy might as well read "Tap: Kill anything you care about." for 3 mana.
I would not put decimate anywhere near my top 10. Its a good card and a 4 for 1 but you NEED all 4 targets for the spell to be legal. Sometimes there just arent enchantments in play or maybe no artifact.
I would not put decimate anywhere near my top 10. Its a good card and a 4 for 1 but you NEED all 4 targets for the spell to be legal. Sometimes there just arent enchantments in play or maybe no artifact.
I don't like my spells being so limited.
Oh, I agree. It's not top 10 material in the least. But It's certainly better than some of the stuff on this list, so it deserves top 50.
This list doesn't seem very good to me ;/. What are you basing what's best off of? What was your basis for coming up with which was best becuase what I see is a list that seems to be very biased in that it assumes lots of creatures and a slower paced game (from what I can tell) is thus based on the "ideal" commander meta? Are we basing the strength of the card on its removal effect or rating any "removal" card based on its overall strength? How can we compare apples (disenchant) to oranges (doomblade) without a measurement? Isn't removal choice based almost entirely on meta game? Again are we assuming "ideal" metas ? Our own ?
This list doesn't seem very good to me ;/. What are you basing what's best off of? What was your basis for coming up with which was best becuase what I see is a list that seems to be very biased in that it assumes lots of creatures and a slower paced game (from what I can tell) is thus based on the "ideal" commander meta? Are we basing the strength of the card on its removal effect or rating any "removal" card based on its overall strength? How can we compare apples (disenchant) to oranges (doomblade) without a measurement? Isn't removal choice based almost entirely on meta game? Again are we assuming "ideal" metas ? Our own ?
You raise a lot of great points moxnix and I agree with just about all of them but I'll address each issue. First off, the list does seem creature-biased because most removal is for creatures unfortunately. Some suggestions above are good and I hope to incorporate those into the list soon. However, I'm surprised you think the removal leans on the slow side. I am a very competitive player and it's not often that our games go past turn five. Most of us will have 10+ mana by then.
The next point you make is a great one. Do we rank the cards according to their removal ability or by the power of the overall card? I personally think it should be based on the second one. The last thing is how do we compare apples and oranges? Swords to Plowshares versus Strip Mine do very different things and depends on the group. You brought up a lot of questions but not a lot of answers I wouldn't mind seeing your own list or at least some suggestions about how to move things around.
To everyone else, I have read and like all of your suggestions! Can't believe I forgot about Capsize and Duplicant. I will be updating the list soon but I plan to line up all of these cards around my living room and compare each one individually.
This has been suggested a lot but also shot down a lot, and I have to agree with those that say this card is too narrow. If there is a legitimate threat on the board but no enchantments or artifacts, then I can't cast it. If there is a threat on the board and there are only MY enchantments and artifacts in play, I have to blow up my things to use it. At sorcery speed for 4, it has a fairly slim amount of scenarios it which it is good. I will admit though that in the event that an opponent controls all 4, it will do quite a bit of damage.
honestly I wouldn't put vindicate in the top 10. When you want targeted removal, instant speed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sorcery speed.
For example:
the situation: opponent has out a 40/40 trampling omnath.
with vindicate: You're forced to kill the omnath or risk death. You're down a card, he's down a card, he's mad at you, and everyone else at the table who isn't you or omnath benefits.
with stp: reveal the STP. Omnath attacks someone else and probably kills them. The people dumb enough to rely on sorcery speed crap like vindicate are forced to burn it, removing the threat for you. You keep the stp for later use.
Now, vindicate is at least decent because of the versatility, but I'd take beast within over it 10000% of the time. I'd probably consider stp or chaos warp the #1 removal spell.
Mogis, God of Slaughter
Daxos of Meletis
I'm very back and forth about that, but I changed it back to Reap and Sow for now.
In competitive Commander, life gain is very insignificant so I consider Unmake and Swords to Plowshares essentially equivalent except for the mana cost. It might find its way near the bottom of the list at some point... Perhaps in place of a charm.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
Second this it's totally back-breaking in EDH and is at least in the top 50 if not the top 10.
Orim's Thunder and Hide//Seek should also be considered.
Rafiq of the Many UWG
Sedris, the Traitor King URB
Kaalia of the Vast RWB
Savra, Queen of Golgari GB
Trostani, Selesnya's Voice GW
Eight-and-a-Half-Tails EquipmentW
Spin into Myth: Yes, it's five mana, but it's also an instant in mono-blue that deals with any creature unconditionally, bypassing anything other than Shroud/Hexproof and Protection from Blue. It also foils reanimate strategies and most importantly, gets rid of a commander semi-permanently. That last part is very important in EDH and is the reason why Bant Charm should in my opinion be ranked in the top ten.
Duplicant: Colorless removal that exiles, gives you a creature that copies the target's P/T, lets you abuse blink mechanics and can in a pinch be recurred with Academy Ruins. This really should be on the EDH list.
Capsize and Shattering Pulse: These cards may seem overpriced, but in the right deck, they are incredibly effective. There's little as annoying as fighting a permission player who, every turn when you announce your end step, goes: "end of turn, snap back your best thing/destroy your best artifact".
Slave of Bolas: Another piece of unconditional removal that is only foiled by Shroud/Hexproof/Protection. Very nice to play against Ulamog.
Intrepid Hero: Remember that we're talking about a format where 5/5 is considered "medium-sized". This guy might as well read "Tap: Kill anything you care about." for 3 mana.
(U/B)(U/B)(U/B) JUMP IN THE LINE, ROCK YOUR BODY IN TIME
(R/W)(R/W)(R/W) RISING FROM THE NEON GLOOM, SHINING LIKE A CRAZY MOON
(U/R)(R/G)(G/U) STEALIN' WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUYIN'
Sig and Avatar Credit: Heroes of the Plane Studios
U Soramaro, First to Dream U (decklist)
W Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite W (decklist)
Nath of the Gilt-Leaf (decklist)
Glissa, The Traitor (decklist)
Jhoira of the Ghitu
Melek, Izzet Paragon
Borborygmos, Enraged (decklist)
WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores WBG
WRG Uril, the Miststalker WRG (decklist)
Also Vithian Renegades and Tin Street Hooligan have become favourites of mine.
EDH: Dromar, the Banisher
Snuff Out - Kills things for no mana, yea it's limited to creatures but free is for me!
I would not put decimate anywhere near my top 10. Its a good card and a 4 for 1 but you NEED all 4 targets for the spell to be legal. Sometimes there just arent enchantments in play or maybe no artifact.
I don't like my spells being so limited.
Wanted Card List: (PM me)
1 Avacyn, Angel of Hope
1 Ravages of War
1 Swords to Plowshares (Judge)
1 Land Tax (Judge)
U
1 Mana Vortex
B
1 Desolation Angel (Foil)
1 Guardian Beast
1 Contamination
R
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
G
1 Food Chain
WUBRG
1 Rohgahh of Kher Keep
X
1 Charcoal Diamond (Foil)
1 Fellwar Stone (Foil)
T
1 Temple Garden (Foil)
3 Mutavault
1 Kor Haven
Oh, I agree. It's not top 10 material in the least. But It's certainly better than some of the stuff on this list, so it deserves top 50.
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
You raise a lot of great points moxnix and I agree with just about all of them but I'll address each issue. First off, the list does seem creature-biased because most removal is for creatures unfortunately. Some suggestions above are good and I hope to incorporate those into the list soon. However, I'm surprised you think the removal leans on the slow side. I am a very competitive player and it's not often that our games go past turn five. Most of us will have 10+ mana by then.
The next point you make is a great one. Do we rank the cards according to their removal ability or by the power of the overall card? I personally think it should be based on the second one. The last thing is how do we compare apples and oranges? Swords to Plowshares versus Strip Mine do very different things and depends on the group. You brought up a lot of questions but not a lot of answers I wouldn't mind seeing your own list or at least some suggestions about how to move things around.
To everyone else, I have read and like all of your suggestions! Can't believe I forgot about Capsize and Duplicant. I will be updating the list soon but I plan to line up all of these cards around my living room and compare each one individually.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
Usually you have recursion to really abuse it.
Plus if you add green it works well with Harmonic Sliver.
Savra | Seton | Dralnu | Mimeoplasm | Karador | Brigid
UBBreya's Toybox (Competitive, Combo)WR
RGodzilla, King of the MonstersG
-Retired Decks-
UBLazav, Dimir Mastermind (Competitive, UB Voltron/Control)UB
"Knowledge is such a burden. Release it. Release all your fears to me."
—Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
These are great suggestions, and I'll try to fit them onto the list soon.
Rapid Hybridization used to be on the list, but I wanted to fit more things on there, so just assume I combined them into one spot!
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
This has been suggested a lot but also shot down a lot, and I have to agree with those that say this card is too narrow. If there is a legitimate threat on the board but no enchantments or artifacts, then I can't cast it. If there is a threat on the board and there are only MY enchantments and artifacts in play, I have to blow up my things to use it. At sorcery speed for 4, it has a fairly slim amount of scenarios it which it is good. I will admit though that in the event that an opponent controls all 4, it will do quite a bit of damage.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
Username: Cabz
For example:
the situation: opponent has out a 40/40 trampling omnath.
with vindicate: You're forced to kill the omnath or risk death. You're down a card, he's down a card, he's mad at you, and everyone else at the table who isn't you or omnath benefits.
with stp: reveal the STP. Omnath attacks someone else and probably kills them. The people dumb enough to rely on sorcery speed crap like vindicate are forced to burn it, removing the threat for you. You keep the stp for later use.
Now, vindicate is at least decent because of the versatility, but I'd take beast within over it 10000% of the time. I'd probably consider stp or chaos warp the #1 removal spell.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6