Fabricate: sorcery speed in a color that wants to keep its mana open, its limited in what it fetches, and costing 3 mana isn't anything to get excited about
Kaho, Minamo Historian: too easy to lose the spells you search for, can't use them until your next turn, only instants
Personal Tutor: This is just dog ****. Top of the library tutor, can only fetch sorceries and sorcery speed itself. ranked way too highly
I've been happy with worldly tutor in rhys, though it's worse than all the other tutors in the deck. It's still worth running, imo, because you can get any utility dude, or try to assemble karmic guide + reveillark or Kamahl + Elesh Norn.
I run wordly tutor in my Omnath deck ssolely to grab Rofellos early. It's by far the worst tutor I run, but it has it's uses. Hell I might would prefer Time of Need.
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Yeah, gamble needs to be WAY higher up on that list.
If you don't run recursion, sure it's not as great, but a tutor for R in a deck where you work from your hand, deck, and yard... It's often better then a lot of the cards listed above it.
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The EDH stax primer When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Great points! Especially about overvaluing those blue tutors. Moved up Gamble a lot, and the other two a little. Sent Personal Tutor to the back of the line ;D
I mean, it's no survival, but it's still a repeatable tutor for a low cost, on a bear.
Of course, the difficulty with this whole list is that some cards are going to be better or worse depending on the deck. Survival is super crazy powerful in the right deck, but merely decent in many others, and same for fauna shaman. Definitely true of academy rector - in the right deck, insane. in the wrong deck, awful, even if they have a decent number of enchantments.
I will say I think chord of calling is overrated. Good? Sure. Top 10? definitely not. Transmute artifact also seems oddly high to me. And long-term plans in the top 30 is a joke, that card sort of sucks. SFM is definitely way better than any of those, imo. wayfarer being lower is INSANE, that card is CA and tutor in one crazy package - somehow it loses to single-shot land tutors? pod, as mentioned, should be higher, with so much etb it usually generates insane advantage if left alone.
Chord is extremely strong.
Lets face it, magic is pretty much Magic: Enter the Battlefield.
You can be completely tapped out and still get mystic snake, duplicant, venser, shriekmaw, etc etc in response to someone trying to win.
Its half a tooth and nail at instant speed?
Rather than arbitrarily saying "this is a good tutor" we should decide how to rank them.
There is a difference between a tutor that is amazing in a mono color deck and a tutor that if youre playing that color you 99% of the time want to run that card.
Example?
Long term plans is played in mono blue or budget decks. Currently is sits next to Imperial Recruiter, which in any creature based deck (we just talked about magic: the etb right?) wants to run it.
Im going to go ahead and argue that Cruel Tutor and Liliana Vess are basically the same thing. lily 1.0 only ever gets one good tutor to the top for 5 mana, unless youre going way way out of your way to protect her. In EDH is 5cc tutor+fog > 3cc tutor? theyre probably the same.
I think we can all agree on three simple things about tutors.
1) The more options you have to choose from the better
2) The cheaper the better
3) into play is better than in hand, and in hand is WAY better than on top
Essentially we have to remember that EDH is a 100 card singleton format, that at its most competitive, wants to be a 60 card deck full of 4ofs.
So we want redundancy. To attain that redundancy we play cards that do extremely similar things and play tutors that effectively give us multiple copies of *certain cards* for an additional price. The cheaper the additional the better the tutor.
Really, what formats actually run tutors? Generally speaking, vintage is the most exclusive, and thats the format that is basically 60 card highlander, right?
I mean, it's no survival, but it's still a repeatable tutor for a low cost, on a bear.
Of course, the difficulty with this whole list is that some cards are going to be better or worse depending on the deck. Survival is super crazy powerful in the right deck, but merely decent in many others, and same for fauna shaman. Definitely true of academy rector - in the right deck, insane. in the wrong deck, awful, even if they have a decent number of enchantments.
I will say I think chord of calling is overrated. Good? Sure. Top 10? definitely not. Transmute artifact also seems oddly high to me. And long-term plans in the top 30 is a joke, that card sort of sucks. SFM is definitely way better than any of those, imo. wayfarer being lower is INSANE, that card is CA and tutor in one crazy package - somehow it loses to single-shot land tutors? pod, as mentioned, should be higher, with so much etb it usually generates insane advantage if left alone.
Fauna Shaman is probably worth an include... The problem I'm currently having is that I like most of the cards on the list, it's become a little over-saturated now with good cards, I don't want to cut anything ;D Chord of Calling is one of the better creature tutors in my opinion. There's nothing like having a little bit of mana open and some creatures, then tapping out instant speed right before your turn for an Ulamog, Infinite Gyre. It's instant speed, into play, and has the potential to be free. I shifted back Transmute Artifact and Long-Term Plans and brought Weathered Wayfarer up a bit, although I run Wayfarer in my decks and I usually don't trigger much, if at all. Stoneforge Mystic is good in a Voltron decks, like the point you made about Academy Rector, but not much else.
Why is Kaho, Minamo Historian in the list? I mean he doesnt tutor to hand, you have to wait or give him haste and you have to pay the full mana cost. I'd say a card like Arcum Dagsson is ten times better. He tutors direct into play and doesnt care about manacost.
You make a good case for Arcum. I do think Kaho is pretty good for the list because it tutors 3 cards to your pseudo-hand. You've gained card advantage even though you have to wait a turn to use one. Yeah, it's more fragile than if they went to your hand, but "Search your library for any 3 instants from your deck" is pretty powerful since all of them are available to you the following turn or sooner with Lightning Greaves, etc.
How is tooth and nail at 13 when everyone complains about it? It wins games if it resolves in certain decks. The other tutors before it still have to cast the cards but in a GB or mono g deck you can instacombo
It does not win games when i Demonic Tutor a counter into my hand...
I'll focus my championing on wayfarer because that card is bonkers. if you have him T1, unless you're playing first he's basically guaranteed activations for the first 3-4 turns, which is an insane advantage. You're ranking sylvan scrying in the top 20, and wayfarer is a sylvan scrying every freaking turn for half the cost. Even if you're going first, I would have no qualms about skipping a land drop to be able to use him. Generally, even late-game he'll be useful since there's probably some ramp deck that's got tons of lands. The only time he's not useful is if you're playing that ramp deck yourself and you get him on a later turn. But being amazing in every deck that isn't a land ramp deck isn't exactly restrictive, transmute artifact is useful in WAAAAY fewer decks, as is SFM (despite that card also being amazing).
This list still needs work. Steel shakers gift over personal tutor? No doomsday I guess tutor for 5 cards for 3 mana is bad.
Gift puts it straight into your hand. There is equipment that works in nearly every EDH deck; be it greaves, skullclamp, batterskull, sunforger, or swords.
Personal Tutor is almost only run in combo decks.
would someone care to explain to me why the transmute cards are ranked so highly
and why is demonic collusion ranked so low? its amazing. its a repeatable tutor, and a discard outlet. At the very least, I would play it over diabolic revelation
-can't be counter (only by stiffle type cards)
- puts it in hand - not ontop of library
- doesn't cost life
- fairly light on mana cost
generally when someone tutors, you don't counter the tutor. You counter the spell which they tutor for.
Yeah, "to hand" is better than "to top of library", but its not too important
Life loss is pretty negligible in EDH
Not really. spending 3 or 4 isn't really some kind of benchmark among tutors.
And then there is the obvious drawback of transmute... I really don't think these cards are good enough for their current position. In truth, I think the OP has ranked blue tutors consistently too high
generally when someone tutors, you don't counter the tutor. You counter the spell which they tutor for.
In theory, perhaps. But the train of thought of which laterally applies to the idea of countering the tutor relates to countering the ramp. In some cases it is better to counter the ramp spell.
I am simply giving validity to transmute as a great tutor mechanic due to how it gets around common cantrips.
In theory, perhaps. But the train of thought of which laterally applies to the idea of countering the tutor relates to countering the ramp. In some cases it is better to counter the ramp spell.
I am simply giving validity to transmute as a great tutor mechanic due to how it gets around common cantrips.
I don't think there are any ramp spells besides "doublers" which are worth countering.
I dunno, I think transmute is a decent tutor mechanic. But where it is in the top 50 is too high, considering the glaring drawback.
Wargate is certainly better than cards like Fabricate, IMO...
I would wager that the thinking behind Fabricate ranking higher than Wargate is due to the less restrictive mana requirements of Fabricate -- it's simply just going to be more useful for more decks.
Yeah, "to hand" is better than "to top of library", but its not too important
This is inherently wrong.
Card disadvantage is too important to be aware of. There is a difference between a tutor that basically makes the card you want to cast cost more, and one that makes that card cost more *and* a draw.
Dont get me wrong, transmute cards arent that great, but the ones that are playable ones are worlds better than the rest.
[card]Tolaria West
Shred Memory
Muddle the Mixture
Dimir House Guard[/card]
These are extremely playable outside of just being a tutor. Granted the first and last are more narrow than the 2cc ones.
The fact they find survival of the fittest makes them good.
Lets talk about Birthing Pod.
What green decks dont want to run birthing pod? Basically the ones that are creature light and combo heavy (read noncreature combo). When you build a deck you want to build it to curve out (exception being heavy ramp), and Pod caters directly to that. Unhindered pod can ramp you into huge fatties over a couple turns and win the game. With the amount of creaures with undying, persist, ETB triggers, or just plain happy to have them in your yard Pod takes little if any building around.
Crop Rotation.
What are the broken lands in the format that make crop rotation worth running?
Cabal Coffers
Maze of Ith
Gaea's Cradle
Im probably missing a couple, but my main point is that these arent things you generally want in turns 1-3 outside of maybe cradle in elves if youre going crazy.
Crop rotation is a perfect example of card disadvantage for card quality. You sacrifice a card in hand and one in play to get a land. You do literally nothing to the board state if youre land isnt a huge bomb.
Knight of the Reliquary at first glance does the same thing. He gives you any land you want for a plains/forest.
But rather than losing a card you have a valuable creature that grows himself. Maybe I should be comparing him to weathered wayfarer... but i'd argue hes better than both anyhow.
I agree that those 4 transmute cards are great, and House-Guard and Muddle both have a special place in my heart. I will say this though:
Crop Rotation is pretty amazing. In my Angry Borborygmos deck I'll randomly draw into either Inkmoth Nexus or Kessig Wolf Run. With Crop Rotation I can sac a Forest and find the other of the pair to enable flying 1-shot poison kills. In addition, I can have an active Valakut in play and EOT Rotation for a Vesuva or Thespian's Stage.
Even more hilarious, when I'm in jeopardy of getting beat down I can Rotation mid-combat for Glacial Chasm to save me.
I've seen G/W decks EOT Rotation for Emeria, the Sky Ruin and then resurrect Yosei or green Primordial or something.
Gamble: Red tutor, 1 to cast. Obvious downside, but even so, its still quite good. And its unrestricted by card type.
Demonic Collusion: repeatable, also can be used for shenanigans by tutoring living death whilst discarding big creatures to it.
Birthing Pod: repeatable, tutors to the battlefield, very cheap activation, sac outlet
Also, I think you are ranking some of the blue tutors too highly. fabricate, kaho, minamo historian, personal tutor
Fabricate: sorcery speed in a color that wants to keep its mana open, its limited in what it fetches, and costing 3 mana isn't anything to get excited about
Kaho, Minamo Historian: too easy to lose the spells you search for, can't use them until your next turn, only instants
Personal Tutor: This is just dog ****. Top of the library tutor, can only fetch sorceries and sorcery speed itself. ranked way too highly
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I run wordly tutor in my Omnath deck ssolely to grab Rofellos early. It's by far the worst tutor I run, but it has it's uses. Hell I might would prefer Time of Need.
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If you don't run recursion, sure it's not as great, but a tutor for R in a deck where you work from your hand, deck, and yard... It's often better then a lot of the cards listed above it.
The EDH stax primer
When you absolutely, positively got to kill every permanent in the room, accept no substitutes.
Great points! Especially about overvaluing those blue tutors. Moved up Gamble a lot, and the other two a little. Sent Personal Tutor to the back of the line ;D
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
I mean, it's no survival, but it's still a repeatable tutor for a low cost, on a bear.
Of course, the difficulty with this whole list is that some cards are going to be better or worse depending on the deck. Survival is super crazy powerful in the right deck, but merely decent in many others, and same for fauna shaman. Definitely true of academy rector - in the right deck, insane. in the wrong deck, awful, even if they have a decent number of enchantments.
I will say I think chord of calling is overrated. Good? Sure. Top 10? definitely not. Transmute artifact also seems oddly high to me. And long-term plans in the top 30 is a joke, that card sort of sucks. SFM is definitely way better than any of those, imo. wayfarer being lower is INSANE, that card is CA and tutor in one crazy package - somehow it loses to single-shot land tutors? pod, as mentioned, should be higher, with so much etb it usually generates insane advantage if left alone.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
Lets face it, magic is pretty much Magic: Enter the Battlefield.
You can be completely tapped out and still get mystic snake, duplicant, venser, shriekmaw, etc etc in response to someone trying to win.
Its half a tooth and nail at instant speed?
Rather than arbitrarily saying "this is a good tutor" we should decide how to rank them.
There is a difference between a tutor that is amazing in a mono color deck and a tutor that if youre playing that color you 99% of the time want to run that card.
Example?
Long term plans is played in mono blue or budget decks. Currently is sits next to Imperial Recruiter, which in any creature based deck (we just talked about magic: the etb right?) wants to run it.
Im going to go ahead and argue that Cruel Tutor and Liliana Vess are basically the same thing. lily 1.0 only ever gets one good tutor to the top for 5 mana, unless youre going way way out of your way to protect her. In EDH is 5cc tutor+fog > 3cc tutor? theyre probably the same.
I think we can all agree on three simple things about tutors.
1) The more options you have to choose from the better
2) The cheaper the better
3) into play is better than in hand, and in hand is WAY better than on top
Essentially we have to remember that EDH is a 100 card singleton format, that at its most competitive, wants to be a 60 card deck full of 4ofs.
So we want redundancy. To attain that redundancy we play cards that do extremely similar things and play tutors that effectively give us multiple copies of *certain cards* for an additional price. The cheaper the additional the better the tutor.
Really, what formats actually run tutors? Generally speaking, vintage is the most exclusive, and thats the format that is basically 60 card highlander, right?
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Fauna Shaman is probably worth an include... The problem I'm currently having is that I like most of the cards on the list, it's become a little over-saturated now with good cards, I don't want to cut anything ;D Chord of Calling is one of the better creature tutors in my opinion. There's nothing like having a little bit of mana open and some creatures, then tapping out instant speed right before your turn for an Ulamog, Infinite Gyre. It's instant speed, into play, and has the potential to be free. I shifted back Transmute Artifact and Long-Term Plans and brought Weathered Wayfarer up a bit, although I run Wayfarer in my decks and I usually don't trigger much, if at all. Stoneforge Mystic is good in a Voltron decks, like the point you made about Academy Rector, but not much else.
You make a good case for Arcum. I do think Kaho is pretty good for the list because it tutors 3 cards to your pseudo-hand. You've gained card advantage even though you have to wait a turn to use one. Yeah, it's more fragile than if they went to your hand, but "Search your library for any 3 instants from your deck" is pretty powerful since all of them are available to you the following turn or sooner with Lightning Greaves, etc.
I'm putting Fauna Shaman and Arcum Dagsson under consideration.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
It does not win games when i Demonic Tutor a counter into my hand...
Personally, I would put him in the top 10.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
demonic isnt an instant though so unless you know whats coming up, most players ive seen go for combo pieces.
EDH
GWSigarda, Host of EnchantressGW[Primer]
Damia http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=410191
DDFT Legacyhttp://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=505247
Domain Zoo http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10212429#post10212429
Gift puts it straight into your hand. There is equipment that works in nearly every EDH deck; be it greaves, skullclamp, batterskull, sunforger, or swords.
Personal Tutor is almost only run in combo decks.
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Demonic Consultation. Problem solved! Assuming you have the guts (and luck) to use it, that is.
and why is demonic collusion ranked so low? its amazing. its a repeatable tutor, and a discard outlet. At the very least, I would play it over diabolic revelation
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-can't be counter (only by stiffle type cards)
- puts it in hand - not ontop of library
- doesn't cost life
- fairly light on mana cost
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
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Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
generally when someone tutors, you don't counter the tutor. You counter the spell which they tutor for.
Yeah, "to hand" is better than "to top of library", but its not too important
Life loss is pretty negligible in EDH
Not really. spending 3 or 4 isn't really some kind of benchmark among tutors.
And then there is the obvious drawback of transmute... I really don't think these cards are good enough for their current position. In truth, I think the OP has ranked blue tutors consistently too high
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
In theory, perhaps. But the train of thought of which laterally applies to the idea of countering the tutor relates to countering the ramp. In some cases it is better to counter the ramp spell.
I am simply giving validity to transmute as a great tutor mechanic due to how it gets around common cantrips.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
I don't think there are any ramp spells besides "doublers" which are worth countering.
I dunno, I think transmute is a decent tutor mechanic. But where it is in the top 50 is too high, considering the glaring drawback.
Niv-Mizzet Ramp 'n' Wheel
Godo: Strap him up and turn him sideways!
I would wager that the thinking behind Fabricate ranking higher than Wargate is due to the less restrictive mana requirements of Fabricate -- it's simply just going to be more useful for more decks.
This is inherently wrong.
Card disadvantage is too important to be aware of. There is a difference between a tutor that basically makes the card you want to cast cost more, and one that makes that card cost more *and* a draw.
Dont get me wrong, transmute cards arent that great, but the ones that are playable ones are worlds better than the rest.
[card]Tolaria West
Shred Memory
Muddle the Mixture
Dimir House Guard[/card]
These are extremely playable outside of just being a tutor. Granted the first and last are more narrow than the 2cc ones.
The fact they find survival of the fittest makes them good.
Lets talk about Birthing Pod.
What green decks dont want to run birthing pod? Basically the ones that are creature light and combo heavy (read noncreature combo). When you build a deck you want to build it to curve out (exception being heavy ramp), and Pod caters directly to that. Unhindered pod can ramp you into huge fatties over a couple turns and win the game. With the amount of creaures with undying, persist, ETB triggers, or just plain happy to have them in your yard Pod takes little if any building around.
Crop Rotation.
What are the broken lands in the format that make crop rotation worth running?
Cabal Coffers
Maze of Ith
Gaea's Cradle
Im probably missing a couple, but my main point is that these arent things you generally want in turns 1-3 outside of maybe cradle in elves if youre going crazy.
Crop rotation is a perfect example of card disadvantage for card quality. You sacrifice a card in hand and one in play to get a land. You do literally nothing to the board state if youre land isnt a huge bomb.
Knight of the Reliquary at first glance does the same thing. He gives you any land you want for a plains/forest.
But rather than losing a card you have a valuable creature that grows himself. Maybe I should be comparing him to weathered wayfarer... but i'd argue hes better than both anyhow.
Mimeoplasm Midrange, CHAINER CHAINER HIGH VOLTAGE
Rafiq of the Astral Slide, 67land.dec Child of Alara, Gisela <3 Sunforger
TRADE!?WUBRGMy Pauper Cube
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper, Phage the Uncastable, Azusa Lost but Stompy, Crosis Combo Breaker, All-In-Skullbriar, Rafiq/Jenara ETB army, Hazezon Swarm, Glissa Voltron!, Jarad Zombie Tribal, Zedruu Pillowfort, Reaper King Artifact Shenanagains
Crop Rotation is pretty amazing. In my Angry Borborygmos deck I'll randomly draw into either Inkmoth Nexus or Kessig Wolf Run. With Crop Rotation I can sac a Forest and find the other of the pair to enable flying 1-shot poison kills. In addition, I can have an active Valakut in play and EOT Rotation for a Vesuva or Thespian's Stage.
Even more hilarious, when I'm in jeopardy of getting beat down I can Rotation mid-combat for Glacial Chasm to save me.
I've seen G/W decks EOT Rotation for Emeria, the Sky Ruin and then resurrect Yosei or green Primordial or something.
And on and on and on... Crop Rotation rules.