Needs more transmute artifact . Imperial seal below crop rotation ?? In general no way :/. I'd include lim duls it's a tutor I'm
Making the call XD. But the card I'm most upset I don't see is DoomsDay
I really thought I had put Transmute Artifact on there! I put it on, pretty high up. And since you made the call for Lim-Dul's Vault, I put it on there too ;D I had actually never heard of Doomsday, it's very interesting... I'm going to need some time to think that card over.
The previous post mentioning Transmute Artifact made me wonder if the Transmute cards belong on the list anywhere. Surely some are better than the bottom of the barrel here?
I'm going to disagree. Well, those tutors you listed are definitely good, but worldly tutor costs 1. It is essentially a Vampiric Tutor in any deck running green with value creatures.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with ISB on this one. Worldly Tutor is utterly lacking in any deck that doesn't run blue, and there are better options in black. In non-UG decks, Worldly Tutor is slow and a source of card disadvantage. There are very few creatures in mono-green that you feel like pitching a card and waiting a turn to get. Blue alleviates these issues by providing card draw, which both combats the card disadvantage and get the card right away.
I don't even bother running it in mono-green anymore. And once you go black, you have so many better options, like Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, etc. After a while you come to realize how mediocre tutoring to the top of the library is in a color that has few ways of interacting with the top cards of its library (and a plethora of creature tutors).
Speaking of creature tutors, where is Primal Command on this list? Primal Command is absolutely INSANE. It's the best Command in EDH after Cryptic, imo (and I think you can make an argument for it being better). It's a classic 2-for-1 (as opposed to a 0-for-1 like Worldly), and it has great pinch options versus reanimator and aggro decks. And yes, it is a tutor, because that's one of the modes you will almost always pick, and when you don't pick it it's because you don't need the tutor - it's flexible.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with ISB on this one. Worldly Tutor is utterly lacking in any deck that doesn't run blue, and there are better options in black. In non-UG decks, Worldly Tutor is slow and a source of card disadvantage. There are very few creatures in mono-green that you feel like pitching a card and waiting a turn to get. Blue alleviates these issues by providing card draw, which both combats the card disadvantage and get the card right away.
I don't even bother running it in mono-green anymore. And once you go black, you have so many better options, like Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, etc. After a while you come to realize how mediocre tutoring to the top of the library is in a color that has few ways of interacting with the top cards of its library (and a plethora of creature tutors).
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What does blue have to do with the fact that its a 1 cmc instant creature tutor? Because you can't brainstorm on the same turn that you cast it? Lol, there are plenty of ways for any green deck without blue to draw cards the same turn. Saying that you need blue for a top-deck tutor to be effective is more than wrong. This just in: You don't need blue to draw cards..
With all of the value creatures (read: spells on a stick) that magic has been churning out, worldly tutor is nearly as good as anything you could tutor for with any other tutor. Need spot removal? Duplicant. Noncreature removal? Sylvan Primordial, Acidic Slime. There are way more examples depending on the color of your deck, but I hope you get the jist of a creature tutor..
What does blue have to do with the fact that its a 1 cmc instant creature tutor? Because you can't brainstorm on the same turn that you cast it? Lol, there are plenty of ways for any green deck without blue to draw cards the same turn. Saying that you need blue for a top-deck tutor to be effective is more than wrong. This just in: You don't need blue to draw cards..
With all of the value creatures (read: spells on a stick) that magic has been churning out, worldly tutor is nearly as good as anything you could tutor for with any other tutor. Need spot removal? Duplicant. Noncreature removal? Sylvan Primordial, Acidic Slime. There are way more examples depending on the color of your deck, but I hope you get the jist of a creature tutor..
Green's ways of drawing cards revolve around playing cards like Regal Force or at best Harmonize - they're not cards that you play and then also play 5-8 mana creatures the same turn. And if you're going through all that work, why not play a creature tutor that doesn't even require going through all that work - tutors like Green Sun's Zenith, Fierce Empath, Chord of Calling, and Primal Command. The other great part about these cards is that they're not terrible topdecks either.
Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal tutor for more than creatures. Yes, I get the concept of tutoring for creatures and a creature toolbox. However, even with a proper toolbox you cannot compete with the sheer versatility of Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal. The reasons these cards are so good aren't because they tutor for value, but because they tutor for the combo pieces that you need to win the game quickly. I hate playing combo, but I admit it's the easiest way to win the game. And if you want to go that route, Vampiric and Seal literally read "I win [half] the game". Not to mention you can easily recoup the card loss in black.
The sheer versatility of being able to tutor for whatever you need whenever you need make Vampiric and Seal so much better. Mystical Tutor's good, because as you said, you can Brainstorm or whatever after it. Honestly, I feel that playing most of these cards are annoying because of how bad topdecks they are, but I will admit to the power of all of the above with the EXCEPTION of Worldly Tutor. Green just has few good ways of negating how much CA and tempo you're losing off of it. If you're really convinced I'm just a terrible Magic player, look at ISB. He's a cornerstone of these forums.
Heck, Mystical Tutor tutors for anything, because half the time I'm tutoring for a tutor to tutor for my combo piece.
TL;DR - The reason non-Worldly Tutor tutors are good are because they're more versatile and in colors that can better handle the loss of cards. Yes, all of the 1-mana cards cause card disadvantage. However, the combination of Worldly Tutor's limited range (can't find a large majority of combo pieces), along with it's lack of card advantage in-color make it bad.
Finally, I think all of these cards become much worse if you're not playing to combo (card advantage/disadvantage doesn't matter when you win the game on the spot). Which Worldly Tutor is abjectly the worst of the bunch at doing.
Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with ISB on this one. Worldly Tutor is utterly lacking in any deck that doesn't run blue, and there are better options in black. In non-UG decks, Worldly Tutor is slow and a source of card disadvantage. There are very few creatures in mono-green that you feel like pitching a card and waiting a turn to get. Blue alleviates these issues by providing card draw, which both combats the card disadvantage and get the card right away.
I never play mono-green, so usually Worldly Tutor ends up being pretty useful. At the end of turn 1 you cast this at instant speed so your top deck is what you tutor for. However, you're absolutely right in that it's considerably weaker than Mystical Tutor which can either get other tutors or set up the Miracle cards, and Enlightened Tutor because it grabs combo pieces and artifacts/enchantments are generally just better than creatures. It definitely has a lot of use though (friend of mine runs it well in an Oath of Druids Damia build). I'm fairly comfortable with where it is on the list right now, give or take a few spots.
Speaking of creature tutors, where is Primal Command on this list? Primal Command is absolutely INSANE. It's the best Command in EDH after Cryptic, imo (and I think you can make an argument for it being better). It's a classic 2-for-1 (as opposed to a 0-for-1 like Worldly), and it has great pinch options versus reanimator and aggro decks. And yes, it is a tutor, because that's one of the modes you will almost always pick, and when you don't pick it it's because you don't need the tutor - it's flexible.
I completely agree! I'll try to find a place for it on the list, I'm just having a hard time picking any cards to vote off the island.
Green's ways of drawing cards revolve around playing cards like Regal Force or at best Harmonize - they're not cards that you play and then also play 5-8 mana creatures the same turn. And if you're going through all that work, why not play a creature tutor that doesn't even require going through all that work - tutors like Green Sun's Zenith, Fierce Empath, Chord of Calling, and Primal Command. The other great part about these cards is that they're not terrible topdecks either.
Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal tutor for more than creatures. Yes, I get the concept of tutoring for creatures and a creature toolbox. However, even with a proper toolbox you cannot compete with the sheer versatility of Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal. The reasons these cards are so good aren't because they tutor for value, but because they tutor for the combo pieces that you need to win the game quickly. I hate playing combo, but I admit it's the easiest way to win the game. And if you want to go that route, Vampiric and Seal literally read "I win [half] the game". Not to mention you can easily recoup the card loss in black.
The sheer versatility of being able to tutor for whatever you need whenever you need make Vampiric and Seal so much better. Mystical Tutor's good, because as you said, you can Brainstorm or whatever after it. Honestly, I feel that playing most of these cards are annoying because of how bad topdecks they are, but I will admit to the power of all of the above with the EXCEPTION of Worldly Tutor. Green just has few good ways of negating how much CA and tempo you're losing off of it. If you're really convinced I'm just a terrible Magic player, look at ISB. He's a cornerstone of these forums.
Heck, Mystical Tutor tutors for anything, because half the time I'm tutoring for a tutor to tutor for my combo piece.
TL;DR - The reason non-Worldly Tutor tutors are good are because they're more versatile and in colors that can better handle the loss of cards. Yes, all of the 1-mana cards cause card disadvantage. However, the combination of Worldly Tutor's limited range (can't find a large majority of combo pieces), along with it's lack of card advantage in-color make it bad.
Finally, I think all of these cards become much worse if you're not playing to combo (card advantage/disadvantage doesn't matter when you win the game on the spot). Which Worldly Tutor is abjectly the worst of the bunch at doing.
I think you're looking at this way too narrowly. Tutors aren't just for finding combo pieces. Believe it or not there are a number of decks that win via creatures. The ability to tutor for one of those creatures at instant speed for 1 CMC is extremely valuable, in the same way that tutoring for a combo piece for 1 CMC at instant speed is incredibly valuable.
Obviously in comparing a card that tutors for anything and a card that can only tutor for creatures, (Vampiric vs Worldly) Vampiric will always win. I never disagreed that it is one of the best tutors. Nor did I say GSZ is not better than worldly tutor. But calling worldly tutor an ineffective tutor is really really wrong and you either don't play decks that rely on valuable creatures or you haven't used it right.
Quote from mgonzalez »
I never play mono-green, so usually Worldly Tutor ends up being pretty useful. At the end of turn 1 you cast this at instant speed so your top deck is what you tutor for. However, you're absolutely right in that it's considerably weaker than Mystical Tutor which can either get other tutors or set up the Miracle cards, and Enlightened Tutor because it grabs combo pieces and artifacts/enchantments are generally just better than creatures. It definitely has a lot of use though (friend of mine runs it well in an Oath of Druids Damia build). I'm fairly comfortable with where it is on the list right now, give or take a few spots.
I think mgonzalez has it right. You(Slivortal) are looking at Worldly Tutor as a mono-green card, and then saying how its role in that deck is not as effective as Vampiric or Mystical tutor in a different deck would be. But the truth is that most green decks aren't just mono-green, so this 'drawback' of being in a green-only deck doesn't actually exist, and is not what I'm talking about.
I never play mono-green, so usually Worldly Tutor ends up being pretty useful. At the end of turn 1 you cast this at instant speed so your top deck is what you tutor for. However, you're absolutely right in that it's considerably weaker than Mystical Tutor which can either get other tutors or set up the Miracle cards, and Enlightened Tutor because it grabs combo pieces and artifacts/enchantments are generally just better than creatures. It definitely has a lot of use though (friend of mine runs it well in an Oath of Druids Damia build). I'm fairly comfortable with where it is on the list right now, give or take a few spots.
I completely agree! I'll try to find a place for it on the list, I'm just having a hard time picking any cards to vote off the island.
I know worldly is better with all the value creatures that have been printed as of late - I just can't agree with it being ahead of gsz/tan. Those cards are both more ubiquitous and arguably more powerful. Into play as opposed to top of deck is a huge difference.
Also, I need to reiterate my position that it's a travesty that Academy Rector isn't on that list. It's an incredibly powerful effect and it's condition is so easily fulfilled as to be laughable. Especially if you're going to include transmute artifact and natural order - both of which include inclusion imo.
I know worldly is better with all the value creatures that have been printed as of late - I just can't agree with it being ahead of gsz/tan. Those cards are both more ubiquitous and arguably more powerful. Into play as opposed to top of deck is a huge difference.
I actually agree, yesterday he had Worldly below T+N and GSZ, which I thought was fine. My argument was when he had Worldly at like position 40.
I think that T+N and GSZ are both some of the best cards in the format, let alone tutors.
I think you're looking at this way too narrowly. Tutors aren't just for finding combo pieces. Believe it or not there are a number of decks that win via creatures. The ability to tutor for one of those creatures at instant speed for 1 CMC is extremely valuable, in the same way that tutoring for a combo piece for 1 CMC at instant speed is incredibly valuable.
Obviously comparing a card that tutors for anything and a card that can only tutor for creatures, (Vampiric vs Worldly) Vampiric will always win. I never disagreed that it is one of the best tutors. Nor did I say GSZ is not better than worldly tutor. But calling worldly tutor an ineffective tutor is really really wrong and you either don't play decks that rely on valuable creatures or you haven't used it right.
I think mgonzalez has it right. You(Slivortal) are looking at Worldly Tutor as a mono-green card, and then saying how its role in that deck is not as effective as Vampiric or Mystical tutor in a different deck is. But the truth is that most green decks aren't just mono-green, so this 'drawback' of being in a green-only deck doesn't actually exist, and is not what I'm talking about.
As I said, I was looking at Worldly Tutor in terms of non-blue, non-black decks. It's not good in mono-green, GR, GW, and GRW. This is unlike Enlightened, Mystical, and Vampiric, which are all staples in their respective mono-colored decks. Worldly Tutor doesn't hold a candle to other creature tutors outside of blue and black.
But perhaps I am being a little myopic in saying that.
As I said, I was looking at Worldly Tutor in terms of non-blue, non-black decks. It's not good in mono-green, GR, GW, and GRW. This is unlike Enlightened, Mystical, and Vampiric, which are all staples in their respective mono-colored decks. Worldly Tutor doesn't hold a candle to other creature tutors outside of blue and black.
But perhaps I am being a little myopic in saying that.
That's the other thing... it IS good in those decks, lol. I think your problem is that you think that comboing out is the only way to win the game and uh.. sooo many decks (especially in those colors) do not combo off to win, they instead use creatures, and thus creature tutors are valuable to them, with Worldly Tutor being one of the better ones.
I know worldly is better with all the value creatures that have been printed as of late - I just can't agree with it being ahead of gsz/tan. Those cards are both more ubiquitous and arguably more powerful. Into play as opposed to top of deck is a huge difference.
Also, I need to reiterate my position that it's a travesty that Academy Rector isn't on that list. It's an incredibly powerful effect and it's condition is so easily fulfilled as to be laughable. Especially if you're going to include transmute artifact and natural order - both of which include inclusion imo.
Fair enough. I guess sacrificing a creature is an additional cost in the same way getting Academy Rector to die. I put it up there just a bit behind Idyllic Tutor since it costs more and requires an additional cost, though perhaps putting the Enchantment into play outweighs those negatives. What do you think? For an Enchantment that is hard to cast like Omniscience, Academy Rector would be better, but for your average enchant or combo piece, Idyllic Tutor might be better suited for that.
How is tooth and nail at 13 when everyone complains about it? It wins games if it resolves in certain decks. The other tutors before it still have to cast the cards but in a GB or mono g deck you can instacombo
That's the other thing... it IS good in those decks, lol. I think your problem is that you think that comboing out is the only way to win the game and uh.. sooo many decks (especially in those colors) do not combo off to win, they instead use creatures, and thus creature tutors are valuable to them, with Worldly Tutor being one of the better ones.
I've played both mono-green beats and mono-blue combo for years now. I can tell you from experience that Worldly Tutor is not good in mono-green beats (and several players agree with me) because of the terrible card disadvantage, and Mystical Tutor was one of the best cards in mono-blue combo because it combo'd.
I'm not theorycrafting here, these are my actual experiences with these specific decks.
I've played both mono-green beats and mono-blue combo for years now. I can tell you from experience that Worldly Tutor is not good in mono-green beats (and several players agree with me) because of the terrible card disadvantage, and Mystical Tutor was one of the best cards in mono-blue combo because it combo'd.
I'm not theorycrafting here, these are my actual experiences with these specific decks.
Even if it's not good in one type of deck-- mono-green, why does that discount it from ANY other deck that it could go into? Your argument is getting weaker and weaker as you seem to think that the only deck that would run Worldly Tutor is a mono-green one. This list isn't the "Top 50 Tutors in mono-colored decks" nor is it the "Top 50 combo piece tutors" so I don't really understand your point at all anymore.
Even if it's not good in one type of deck-- mono-green, why does that discount it from ANY other deck that it could go into? Your argument is getting weaker and weaker as you seem to think that the only deck that would run Worldly Tutor is a mono-green one. This list isn't the "Top 50 Tutors in mono-colored decks" nor is it the "Top 50 combo piece tutors" so I don't really understand your point at all anymore.
If you read my post, the fact holds true for non-blue non-black decks. There are a LARGE number of decks where Worldly Tutor isn't worth its salt (aka mono green, GW, GR, and GRW). Additionally in black you just have better tutors, like Vampiric, Seal, Grim, Demonic, etc. That leaves you with GU, RUG, and GWU. That's 3 out of all the potential green combinations.
Here's a thread from a year ago that had a consensus that Mystical and Enlightened were far better than Worldly, and Worldly was only good because "it fetched Primeval Titan" (who is no longer in the format). It also says that GSZ and Chord were generally better cards because of the lack of card disadvantage.
EDIT: What to take away is that Worldly Tutor has really steep competition, and is barely in the top 5 tutors for its own color. Mystical and Enlightened are the best tutors of their respective colors, and Vampiric is a close second after Diabolic (because once again, Diabolic gets the card directly into your hand). Worldly is not anywhere near the level of its three peers. I personally feel it's worse than even Birthing Pod, but Pod does need to be built around.
If you read my post, the fact holds true for non-blue non-black decks. There are a LARGE number of decks where Worldly Tutor isn't worth its salt (aka mono green, GW, GR, and GRW). Additionally in black you just have better tutors, like Vampiric, Seal, Grim, Demonic, etc. That leaves you with GU, RUG, and GWU. That's 3 out of all the potential green combinations.
Here's a thread from a year ago that had a consensus that Mystical and Enlightened were far better than Worldly, and Worldly was only good because "it fetched Primeval Titan" (who is no longer in the format). It also says that GSZ and Chord were generally better cards because of the lack of card disadvantage.
So you mean in decks where their primary win condition and motive is to win by creatures: (GW, GR, GRW), a creature tutor at instant speed and 1 mana is not good?
Again, like I said, I think that GSZ, Chord of Calling, and T+N are all really good cards and better than Worldly Tutor. My whole argument was when he had Worldly Tutor listed around 40-50 when in reality it serves a very similar purpose to Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor in their respective decks.
You're skewing my argument to make it seem like I'm saying that Worldly is better than Enlightened/Mystical when all that I have been arguing is that Worldly is more valuable than what mgonzalev first appraised it as.
What is the sense of linking to an outdated thread where arguments are no longer even valid like you said? Why is Prime Time the only possibly creature in your mind that is worth tutoring to your top deck? It seems to me like you don't actually play creature-based decks.
Also you seem to think that just because you have GSZ or CoC in your deck you also cannot have Worldly Tutor. You do know this is a singleton format where redundancy is invaluable, right?
I'm not sure if you're even worth debating with anymore now that your argument has degenerated into "lol its not good cuz card disadvantage", and yet you don't even acknowledge that the other cards you are praising have the same card disadvantage drawback.
So you mean in decks where their primary win condition and motive is to win by creatures: (GW, GR, GRW), a creature tutor at instant speed and 1 mana is not good?
Again, like I said, I think that GSZ, Chord of Calling, and T+N are all really good cards and better than Worldly Tutor. My whole argument was when he had Worldly Tutor listed around 40-50 when in reality it serves a very similar purpose to Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor in their respective decks.
You're skewing my argument to make it seem like I'm saying that Worldly is better than Enlightened/Mystical when all that I have been arguing is that Worldly is more valuable than what mgonzalev first appraised it as.
What is the sense of linking to an outdated thread where arguments are no longer even valid like you said? Why is Prime Time the only possibly creature in your mind that is worth tutoring to your top deck? It seems to me like you don't actually play creature-based decks.
Also you seem to think that just because you have GSZ or CoC in your deck you also cannot have Worldly Tutor. You do know this is a singleton format where redundancy is invaluable, right?
I'm not sure if you're even worth debating with anymore now that your argument has degenerated into "lol its not good cuz card disadvantage", and yet you don't even acknowledge that the other cards you are praising have the same card disadvantage drawback.
It isn't good because most of the time, I'd prefer two random creatures over one specific creature in creature-based decks. When I build creature-based decks, I don't put in many creatures that I don't want to see, because losing even a couple cards in a creature-based deck means you're so far behind card draw-based and combo-based decks.
In a creature-based deck where you have plenty of ramp and plenty of threats, cards ARE your most valuable resource. NOT card selection. This is different than combo-based and draw-based decks, where selection is more important than cards. I'm evaluating the card wholistically in the specific color and strategies it's in, not saying "lol all these cardz R gr8 Bcause i'm play-ing child of alara gudstuff." Slots are crucial in EDH decks, and Worldly Tutor often just fails to make the cut.
And Prime Time made creature tutors SO much better as a whole. Once you landed Prime Time, you won unless someone dealt with it within a turn or took it, so G for "win the game next turn" was a lot better than what Worldly Tutor is now.
My whole argument was when he had Worldly Tutor listed around 40-50 when in reality it serves a very similar purpose to Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor in their respective decks.
To be fair, those card's don't have tons of competition in their colors and scope.
Birthing Pod belongs so much higher than #49. I'd say it's at least top 20, if not top 10. The fact that it's repeatable and puts the creatures directly into play for just 2 mana (or 1 mana and 2 life) far outweighs the fact that you have to sacrifice a creature. I would say that Pod is the strongest green tutor besides Survival of the Fittest, simply for its sheer utility and re-usability.
Wordly Tutor is bad.
Turn one wordly tutor pales in comparison to all other 1cc tutors, except if youre in mono green and getting rofellos.
The further you get past turn 1 the worst Wordly Tutor gets. Sure, lots of decks win with creatures. So why would you only want one creature? Why not use enlightened tutor to get survival or mystical to get T&N?
The 'good' green tutors put creatures into play, or atleast in your hand.
Its the best 50 tutors, its not what tutors are good in narrow decks.
Fair enough. I guess sacrificing a creature is an additional cost in the same way getting Academy Rector to die. I put it up there just a bit behind Idyllic Tutor since it costs more and requires an additional cost, though perhaps putting the Enchantment into play outweighs those negatives. What do you think? For an Enchantment that is hard to cast like Omniscience, Academy Rector would be better, but for your average enchant or combo piece, Idyllic Tutor might be better suited for that.
I'd say better than Idyllic myself. Fetching into play means it's the same cost or better than idyllic 98% of the time. I had a casual sneak attack deck that abused the crap out of rector, and right now I'm being downright mean with him in a casual repercussions build.
In commander, getting viscous shadows/omniscience etc etc for cheap is brutal, and with clone effects it can be downright silly.
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I really thought I had put Transmute Artifact on there! I put it on, pretty high up. And since you made the call for Lim-Dul's Vault, I put it on there too ;D I had actually never heard of Doomsday, it's very interesting... I'm going to need some time to think that card over.
Sharuum | Damia | Hermit Druid
I'm referring to cards such as Brainspoil and Dimir House Guard.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Sorry, but I'm going to have to agree with ISB on this one. Worldly Tutor is utterly lacking in any deck that doesn't run blue, and there are better options in black. In non-UG decks, Worldly Tutor is slow and a source of card disadvantage. There are very few creatures in mono-green that you feel like pitching a card and waiting a turn to get. Blue alleviates these issues by providing card draw, which both combats the card disadvantage and get the card right away.
I don't even bother running it in mono-green anymore. And once you go black, you have so many better options, like Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Demonic Tutor, etc. After a while you come to realize how mediocre tutoring to the top of the library is in a color that has few ways of interacting with the top cards of its library (and a plethora of creature tutors).
Speaking of creature tutors, where is Primal Command on this list? Primal Command is absolutely INSANE. It's the best Command in EDH after Cryptic, imo (and I think you can make an argument for it being better). It's a classic 2-for-1 (as opposed to a 0-for-1 like Worldly), and it has great pinch options versus reanimator and aggro decks. And yes, it is a tutor, because that's one of the modes you will almost always pick, and when you don't pick it it's because you don't need the tutor - it's flexible.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
What does blue have to do with the fact that its a 1 cmc instant creature tutor? Because you can't brainstorm on the same turn that you cast it? Lol, there are plenty of ways for any green deck without blue to draw cards the same turn. Saying that you need blue for a top-deck tutor to be effective is more than wrong. This just in: You don't need blue to draw cards..
With all of the value creatures (read: spells on a stick) that magic has been churning out, worldly tutor is nearly as good as anything you could tutor for with any other tutor. Need spot removal? Duplicant. Noncreature removal? Sylvan Primordial, Acidic Slime. There are way more examples depending on the color of your deck, but I hope you get the jist of a creature tutor..
Worldly Tutor is no more 'card disadvantage' than Vampiric Tutor or Imperial Seal which you praise in the same post so your reasoning may be a bit twisted.
Username: Cabz
Green's ways of drawing cards revolve around playing cards like Regal Force or at best Harmonize - they're not cards that you play and then also play 5-8 mana creatures the same turn. And if you're going through all that work, why not play a creature tutor that doesn't even require going through all that work - tutors like Green Sun's Zenith, Fierce Empath, Chord of Calling, and Primal Command. The other great part about these cards is that they're not terrible topdecks either.
Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal tutor for more than creatures. Yes, I get the concept of tutoring for creatures and a creature toolbox. However, even with a proper toolbox you cannot compete with the sheer versatility of Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal. The reasons these cards are so good aren't because they tutor for value, but because they tutor for the combo pieces that you need to win the game quickly. I hate playing combo, but I admit it's the easiest way to win the game. And if you want to go that route, Vampiric and Seal literally read "I win [half] the game". Not to mention you can easily recoup the card loss in black.
The sheer versatility of being able to tutor for whatever you need whenever you need make Vampiric and Seal so much better. Mystical Tutor's good, because as you said, you can Brainstorm or whatever after it. Honestly, I feel that playing most of these cards are annoying because of how bad topdecks they are, but I will admit to the power of all of the above with the EXCEPTION of Worldly Tutor. Green just has few good ways of negating how much CA and tempo you're losing off of it. If you're really convinced I'm just a terrible Magic player, look at ISB. He's a cornerstone of these forums.
Heck, Mystical Tutor tutors for anything, because half the time I'm tutoring for a tutor to tutor for my combo piece.
TL;DR - The reason non-Worldly Tutor tutors are good are because they're more versatile and in colors that can better handle the loss of cards. Yes, all of the 1-mana cards cause card disadvantage. However, the combination of Worldly Tutor's limited range (can't find a large majority of combo pieces), along with it's lack of card advantage in-color make it bad.
Finally, I think all of these cards become much worse if you're not playing to combo (card advantage/disadvantage doesn't matter when you win the game on the spot). Which Worldly Tutor is abjectly the worst of the bunch at doing.
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I never play mono-green, so usually Worldly Tutor ends up being pretty useful. At the end of turn 1 you cast this at instant speed so your top deck is what you tutor for. However, you're absolutely right in that it's considerably weaker than Mystical Tutor which can either get other tutors or set up the Miracle cards, and Enlightened Tutor because it grabs combo pieces and artifacts/enchantments are generally just better than creatures. It definitely has a lot of use though (friend of mine runs it well in an Oath of Druids Damia build). I'm fairly comfortable with where it is on the list right now, give or take a few spots.
I completely agree! I'll try to find a place for it on the list, I'm just having a hard time picking any cards to vote off the island.
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I think you're looking at this way too narrowly. Tutors aren't just for finding combo pieces. Believe it or not there are a number of decks that win via creatures. The ability to tutor for one of those creatures at instant speed for 1 CMC is extremely valuable, in the same way that tutoring for a combo piece for 1 CMC at instant speed is incredibly valuable.
Obviously in comparing a card that tutors for anything and a card that can only tutor for creatures, (Vampiric vs Worldly) Vampiric will always win. I never disagreed that it is one of the best tutors. Nor did I say GSZ is not better than worldly tutor. But calling worldly tutor an ineffective tutor is really really wrong and you either don't play decks that rely on valuable creatures or you haven't used it right.
I think mgonzalez has it right. You(Slivortal) are looking at Worldly Tutor as a mono-green card, and then saying how its role in that deck is not as effective as Vampiric or Mystical tutor in a different deck would be. But the truth is that most green decks aren't just mono-green, so this 'drawback' of being in a green-only deck doesn't actually exist, and is not what I'm talking about.
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I know worldly is better with all the value creatures that have been printed as of late - I just can't agree with it being ahead of gsz/tan. Those cards are both more ubiquitous and arguably more powerful. Into play as opposed to top of deck is a huge difference.
Also, I need to reiterate my position that it's a travesty that Academy Rector isn't on that list. It's an incredibly powerful effect and it's condition is so easily fulfilled as to be laughable. Especially if you're going to include transmute artifact and natural order - both of which include inclusion imo.
I actually agree, yesterday he had Worldly below T+N and GSZ, which I thought was fine. My argument was when he had Worldly at like position 40.
I think that T+N and GSZ are both some of the best cards in the format, let alone tutors.
Username: Cabz
As I said, I was looking at Worldly Tutor in terms of non-blue, non-black decks. It's not good in mono-green, GR, GW, and GRW. This is unlike Enlightened, Mystical, and Vampiric, which are all staples in their respective mono-colored decks. Worldly Tutor doesn't hold a candle to other creature tutors outside of blue and black.
But perhaps I am being a little myopic in saying that.
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This is true, but not because Worldly Tutor isn't card disadvantage. All three of those are.
That's the other thing... it IS good in those decks, lol. I think your problem is that you think that comboing out is the only way to win the game and uh.. sooo many decks (especially in those colors) do not combo off to win, they instead use creatures, and thus creature tutors are valuable to them, with Worldly Tutor being one of the better ones.
Username: Cabz
Fair enough. I guess sacrificing a creature is an additional cost in the same way getting Academy Rector to die. I put it up there just a bit behind Idyllic Tutor since it costs more and requires an additional cost, though perhaps putting the Enchantment into play outweighs those negatives. What do you think? For an Enchantment that is hard to cast like Omniscience, Academy Rector would be better, but for your average enchant or combo piece, Idyllic Tutor might be better suited for that.
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I've played both mono-green beats and mono-blue combo for years now. I can tell you from experience that Worldly Tutor is not good in mono-green beats (and several players agree with me) because of the terrible card disadvantage, and Mystical Tutor was one of the best cards in mono-blue combo because it combo'd.
I'm not theorycrafting here, these are my actual experiences with these specific decks.
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Even if it's not good in one type of deck-- mono-green, why does that discount it from ANY other deck that it could go into? Your argument is getting weaker and weaker as you seem to think that the only deck that would run Worldly Tutor is a mono-green one. This list isn't the "Top 50 Tutors in mono-colored decks" nor is it the "Top 50 combo piece tutors" so I don't really understand your point at all anymore.
Username: Cabz
If you read my post, the fact holds true for non-blue non-black decks. There are a LARGE number of decks where Worldly Tutor isn't worth its salt (aka mono green, GW, GR, and GRW). Additionally in black you just have better tutors, like Vampiric, Seal, Grim, Demonic, etc. That leaves you with GU, RUG, and GWU. That's 3 out of all the potential green combinations.
Here's a thread from a year ago that had a consensus that Mystical and Enlightened were far better than Worldly, and Worldly was only good because "it fetched Primeval Titan" (who is no longer in the format). It also says that GSZ and Chord were generally better cards because of the lack of card disadvantage.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=399047
EDIT: What to take away is that Worldly Tutor has really steep competition, and is barely in the top 5 tutors for its own color. Mystical and Enlightened are the best tutors of their respective colors, and Vampiric is a close second after Diabolic (because once again, Diabolic gets the card directly into your hand). Worldly is not anywhere near the level of its three peers. I personally feel it's worse than even Birthing Pod, but Pod does need to be built around.
EDIT2: Do people actually play Kaho, Minamo Historian? I've never actually seen anyone play the card. Surprised it's on this list. Also, isn't Ring of Three Wishes >> Planar Portal?
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So you mean in decks where their primary win condition and motive is to win by creatures: (GW, GR, GRW), a creature tutor at instant speed and 1 mana is not good?
Again, like I said, I think that GSZ, Chord of Calling, and T+N are all really good cards and better than Worldly Tutor. My whole argument was when he had Worldly Tutor listed around 40-50 when in reality it serves a very similar purpose to Enlightened Tutor and Mystical Tutor in their respective decks.
You're skewing my argument to make it seem like I'm saying that Worldly is better than Enlightened/Mystical when all that I have been arguing is that Worldly is more valuable than what mgonzalev first appraised it as.
What is the sense of linking to an outdated thread where arguments are no longer even valid like you said? Why is Prime Time the only possibly creature in your mind that is worth tutoring to your top deck? It seems to me like you don't actually play creature-based decks.
Also you seem to think that just because you have GSZ or CoC in your deck you also cannot have Worldly Tutor. You do know this is a singleton format where redundancy is invaluable, right?
I'm not sure if you're even worth debating with anymore now that your argument has degenerated into "lol its not good cuz card disadvantage", and yet you don't even acknowledge that the other cards you are praising have the same card disadvantage drawback.
Username: Cabz
It isn't good because most of the time, I'd prefer two random creatures over one specific creature in creature-based decks. When I build creature-based decks, I don't put in many creatures that I don't want to see, because losing even a couple cards in a creature-based deck means you're so far behind card draw-based and combo-based decks.
In a creature-based deck where you have plenty of ramp and plenty of threats, cards ARE your most valuable resource. NOT card selection. This is different than combo-based and draw-based decks, where selection is more important than cards. I'm evaluating the card wholistically in the specific color and strategies it's in, not saying "lol all these cardz R gr8 Bcause i'm play-ing child of alara gudstuff." Slots are crucial in EDH decks, and Worldly Tutor often just fails to make the cut.
And Prime Time made creature tutors SO much better as a whole. Once you landed Prime Time, you won unless someone dealt with it within a turn or took it, so G for "win the game next turn" was a lot better than what Worldly Tutor is now.
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To be fair, those card's don't have tons of competition in their colors and scope.
Worldly Tutor does.
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Turn one wordly tutor pales in comparison to all other 1cc tutors, except if youre in mono green and getting rofellos.
The further you get past turn 1 the worst Wordly Tutor gets. Sure, lots of decks win with creatures. So why would you only want one creature? Why not use enlightened tutor to get survival or mystical to get T&N?
The 'good' green tutors put creatures into play, or atleast in your hand.
Its the best 50 tutors, its not what tutors are good in narrow decks.
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I'd say better than Idyllic myself. Fetching into play means it's the same cost or better than idyllic 98% of the time. I had a casual sneak attack deck that abused the crap out of rector, and right now I'm being downright mean with him in a casual repercussions build.
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