Take this argument to other formats:
Many vintage players play as part of a team or someone who is sponsored. They don't always own the decks they're playing. From what I hear, a lot of Standard/Modern/Legacy is the same way. What's to stop someone from borrowing a card (or EDH deck) from a friend ? Does that follow the same "If you don't have it, you can't play it" logic ?
Well for me, it comes down to time constraints. Someone in my group could loan out enough cards so everyone could replace their proxies - but it would take a huge chunk out of actual playtime. If someone shows up with just a few proxies we'll usually be fine with it - because we could collectively de-proxy the deck for the game - we just don't got time for that.
The worst thing about Cockatrice is how everyone and their mother can do things like run 5-color decks with several-hundred dollars worth of fetches and duals. As if Sliver Queen wasn't already a massive tosser.
I'll say the same thing here that I've said in the 40 billion other threads of this nature:
-If the card is in the mail/you've specifically expressed intent to own it, then by all means proxy it up. Just try to replace it within a month.
-If you own another copy (and it's something expensive, e.g. Mana crypt, duals, etc.) then feel free.
-If you just want to see "how this deck would play"... then man up, buy the cards, or build something else. I didn't come here to play Magic: Christmas Land.
And you do realize people have their ways to untap/bounce and replay that accursed thing right.
Stupid Capsize.
Ahh. Sure but there are a ton of 2 card combos that are infinity mana and don't break the bank. I only brought up the tap thing because I played at a random shop once and one of the regulars tried to go infinite mana with just a mana doubler and candelabra. He didn't believe me that mono artifact meant it could only be used once a turn. I showed him the rules for it. Apparently he had been playing it wrong for over 10 years....
Regardless of the effect, it's still "wrong". But again people will just justify/rationalize all day. We can't stop it.
Got it.
Anyway, proxy cards are 100% limited/tied to each persons playgroup. Outside of that I'd suggest finding an alternative card as a courtesy to people that have purchased cards.
I'd play any system that doesn't force me to pay for what I already own. MTGO fails me there so I don't use it.
You realize that you're essentially saying, "I'll ignore licensing policies I don't like, but criticize people who don't follow licensing policies I do like," right?
I'm not dropping a lot of money on a card for it to not work out and nobody in my playgroup would either. We always try to test stuff before buying and if it's worth the slot, we buy it.
The worst thing about Cockatrice is how everyone and their mother can do things like run 5-color decks with several-hundred dollars worth of fetches and duals. As if Sliver Queen wasn't already a massive tosser.
That sucks.
This is why everyone have access to everything is not a good idea or in the best interest of the game.
I'd agree if I believed Cockatrice was doing anything illegal. What the program does is use Wizards own Gatherer images, just like any web browser.
Cockatrice was already shut down once before. As was Apprentice and Gatling Engine.
It uses Copyrighted IP without permission - it diverts traffic from licensed WOTC games (that they make money on). Last I checked this was a sue-able offense. Just ask Samsung.
What magiccards.info does with gatherer is less offensive than cockatrice, but if wizards' legal team wanted to, they might be able to kibosh that too.
You realize that you're essentially saying, "I'll ignore licensing policies I don't like, but criticize people who don't follow licensing policies I do like," right?
I'd agree if that was in any way what I was saying.
What magiccards.info does with gatherer is less offensive than cockatrice, but if wizards' legal team wanted to, they might be able to kibosh that too.
Its possible but maticcards.info really only sets up the correct sizing of the cards for you. Thats not a hard thing to figure out in word even if you want to. The images to the cards can be found all over the web so its really not that big of a deal I would imagine there.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
so collectively and constructively, what we should probably do is to leave judgement to individual playgroups and create a post (with the intent to lobby for it to be stickied or linked) outlining the different levels of proxy-age to give groups who are undecided on their policy some universal point of reference to go from.
I envision this thing being like a scale - going from "Any & All EDH Legal proxies allowed" to "No Proxies."
Personally, I think proxies are fine. In this situation, you would've had the exat same problem if the Mana Drain wasn't a proxy. So the only difference is you want other players to shelve out the same amount of money you do (assuming that if they pay less, they would not be able to compete). Which is of course unreasonable, competitiveness should be based on skill, not financial limits.
We've been here before. Competitiveness is based on everything you have available to you. Look at professional athletes. Many had personal trainers growing up because their parents paid for them. Nascar is most certainly based on financial limits. Poker is based on financial limits.
This is the way the world works. I'm sorry you don't like it.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
I'd play any system that doesn't force me to pay for what I already own. MTGO fails me there so I don't use it.
MTGO is the Wizard's online component. Buying paper cards doesn't give you access to MTGO cards; I think we can agree these are facts and not in dispute.
By saying you use Cockatrice, and saying you won't pay for something twice, you're saying you won't engage in a licensing practice you don't agree with. It seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.
That's a terrible example, given that the magic card game rules specifically allow you to use any means to make a token, as long as you can indicate it's size and whether or not it's tapped clearly.
MTGO is the Wizard's online component. Buying paper cards doesn't give you access to MTGO cards; I think we can agree these are facts and not in dispute.
By saying you use Cockatrice, and saying you won't pay for something twice, you're saying you won't engage in a licensing practice you don't agree with. It seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.
I own 2 Recurring Insight. Only 2 of my Trice decks run that card. Same for every deck I have on there. It's easy to not be a hypocrite if you try.
I've got 9 edh decks - all double-sleeved. I've got 1 mana crypt that I can rifle through the deck for and replace in whatever deck I'm playing. it takes a few minutes - so my group is fine letting me proxy stuff I already have.
i used to do that.. then I bought 3 additional mana crypts.. then I deck collection grew to 16 decks.. so I proxy any additional as necessary just to save the time and effort. I don't think proxying a card you own (or in this card own 4 of) is an issue.
MTGO is the Wizard's online component. Buying paper cards doesn't give you access to MTGO cards; I think we can agree these are facts and not in dispute.
And he doesn't play on MTGO. He doesn't get access to that playerbase, the program support, or the functionality that game provides. He can't draft, he can't compete and he can't sell online cards. Seems ok to me.
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"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
And he doesn't play on MTGO. He doesn't get access to that playerbase, the program support, or the functionality that game provides. He can't draft, he can't compete and he can't sell online cards. Seems ok to me.
That's the point – other uses, such as Cockatrice, aren't licensed. If the argument is, "You must support Wizards to play Magic," then Cockatrice and programs like it should be verboten, ethically speaking. You can't say using paper proxies is some horrible scourge then turn around and play Cockatrice; the two are morally equivalent.
That's the point – other uses, such as Cockatrice, aren't licensed. If the argument is, "You must support Wizards to play Magic," then Cockatrice and programs like it should be verboten, ethically speaking. You can't say using paper proxies is some horrible scourge then turn around and play Cockatrice; the two are morally equivalent.
Paper proxies are fine if you own all copies of the cards you are proxying and happen to not have them on you. That is how I used Trice. Never did I play with a card I didn't own. "Ethically speaking", I'm fine.
Many vintage players play as part of a team or someone who is sponsored. They don't always own the decks they're playing. From what I hear, a lot of Standard/Modern/Legacy is the same way. What's to stop someone from borrowing a card (or EDH deck) from a friend ? Does that follow the same "If you don't have it, you can't play it" logic ?
Well for me, it comes down to time constraints. Someone in my group could loan out enough cards so everyone could replace their proxies - but it would take a huge chunk out of actual playtime. If someone shows up with just a few proxies we'll usually be fine with it - because we could collectively de-proxy the deck for the game - we just don't got time for that.
The worst thing about Cockatrice is how everyone and their mother can do things like run 5-color decks with several-hundred dollars worth of fetches and duals. As if Sliver Queen wasn't already a massive tosser.
That sucks.
Some would also make the argument that you are using trice instead of MTGO where some people own their cards digitally and on paper.
Personally, I am with you that buying all the cards once is probably enough support. I just figure that is probably half of what he is getting at.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
I'd agree if I believed Cockatrice was doing anything illegal. What the program does is use Wizards own Gatherer images, just like any web browser.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
I'd play any system that doesn't force me to pay for what I already own. MTGO fails me there so I don't use it.
-If the card is in the mail/you've specifically expressed intent to own it, then by all means proxy it up. Just try to replace it within a month.
-If you own another copy (and it's something expensive, e.g. Mana crypt, duals, etc.) then feel free.
-If you just want to see "how this deck would play"... then man up, buy the cards, or build something else. I didn't come here to play Magic: Christmas Land.
Ahh. Sure but there are a ton of 2 card combos that are infinity mana and don't break the bank. I only brought up the tap thing because I played at a random shop once and one of the regulars tried to go infinite mana with just a mana doubler and candelabra. He didn't believe me that mono artifact meant it could only be used once a turn. I showed him the rules for it. Apparently he had been playing it wrong for over 10 years....
Got it.
Anyway, proxy cards are 100% limited/tied to each persons playgroup. Outside of that I'd suggest finding an alternative card as a courtesy to people that have purchased cards.
You realize that you're essentially saying, "I'll ignore licensing policies I don't like, but criticize people who don't follow licensing policies I do like," right?
[Primer] - Jor Kadeen, Boros Legionnaire
WUBRGSliver Legion, Slynergistic Slivertastic BeatdownWUBRG
Here are some of the EDH decks I have to deal with...
[Primer] WUBDromar, the Banisher Esper StaxWUB
This is why everyone have access to everything is not a good idea or in the best interest of the game.
Cockatrice was already shut down once before. As was Apprentice and Gatling Engine.
It uses Copyrighted IP without permission - it diverts traffic from licensed WOTC games (that they make money on). Last I checked this was a sue-able offense. Just ask Samsung.
What magiccards.info does with gatherer is less offensive than cockatrice, but if wizards' legal team wanted to, they might be able to kibosh that too.
I'd agree if that was in any way what I was saying.
Its possible but maticcards.info really only sets up the correct sizing of the cards for you. Thats not a hard thing to figure out in word even if you want to. The images to the cards can be found all over the web so its really not that big of a deal I would imagine there.
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
This is not true in reality.
I envision this thing being like a scale - going from "Any & All EDH Legal proxies allowed" to "No Proxies."
Or would this not be helpful ?
We've been here before. Competitiveness is based on everything you have available to you. Look at professional athletes. Many had personal trainers growing up because their parents paid for them. Nascar is most certainly based on financial limits. Poker is based on financial limits.
This is the way the world works. I'm sorry you don't like it.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
MTGO is the Wizard's online component. Buying paper cards doesn't give you access to MTGO cards; I think we can agree these are facts and not in dispute.
By saying you use Cockatrice, and saying you won't pay for something twice, you're saying you won't engage in a licensing practice you don't agree with. It seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.
That's a terrible example, given that the magic card game rules specifically allow you to use any means to make a token, as long as you can indicate it's size and whether or not it's tapped clearly.
I own 2 Recurring Insight. Only 2 of my Trice decks run that card. Same for every deck I have on there. It's easy to not be a hypocrite if you try.
i used to do that.. then I bought 3 additional mana crypts.. then I deck collection grew to 16 decks.. so I proxy any additional as necessary just to save the time and effort. I don't think proxying a card you own (or in this card own 4 of) is an issue.
And he doesn't play on MTGO. He doesn't get access to that playerbase, the program support, or the functionality that game provides. He can't draft, he can't compete and he can't sell online cards. Seems ok to me.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
That's the point – other uses, such as Cockatrice, aren't licensed. If the argument is, "You must support Wizards to play Magic," then Cockatrice and programs like it should be verboten, ethically speaking. You can't say using paper proxies is some horrible scourge then turn around and play Cockatrice; the two are morally equivalent.
Paper proxies are fine if you own all copies of the cards you are proxying and happen to not have them on you. That is how I used Trice. Never did I play with a card I didn't own. "Ethically speaking", I'm fine.