Highlighted are the incorrect assumptions. Sol Ring is just a good card. I have decks without it because I don't own enough. In its place I have other ramp like Wayfarer's Bauble. Every time I draw the Bauble, I say to myself "This should be a Sol Ring as soon as I get around to buying one." Saying that to myself is not fun. My net fun would go up with more Sol Rings.
But there are tons of cards that are "just good cards" that you should probably be playing in almost every deck of a given color.
In the long run do you really feel like you will be having more fun playing those most powerful options over and over again?
In this specific example there are a couple of reasons why your net fun is probably higher w/o Sol Ring everywhere:
1. It is that much more fun when you do get to use it, i.e. you don't get bored of it as quickly.
2. You get a chance to explore different interactions with an alternative like the Bauble. Maybe you find a way to recur the Bauble. Maybe you run a mass artifact sweeper that kills everyone else's Sol Rings and Crypts while your Bauble mana remains untouched. Suffice it to say that the variety can add a lot to your overall experience...but your eyes have to be open to that potential. If you approach it with the negative attitude of "I wish this was a Sol Ring" then you are less likely to find the fun/potential in the alternatives.
Are you totally fine with people proxying anything they want (imagine that you're about to win, and someone plays a proxy Pact of Negation on you)?
Do you think proxy cards are fine, just as long as its "within reason" (and how do you define what's reasonable)?
I am OK with it with a few conditions:
You own the actual card
The card is expensive to the point where it would be a burden on someone to buy multiples (i.e. Mana Drain - I don't think I need to pick up a 6th copy), or so expensive that for the sake of safety it's best not brought to an LGS (The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, I'm looking at you)
The proxy has all the information necessary for someone not familiar with the card to know what it does, and how it works.
It's legible
Under those restrictions, I have no issue with someone who wants to play in a non tournament environment using proxies. Hell, it's just a game!
For those who say, "Use other cards and be creative. There's no reason you have to use Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in every B deck". I would say, that using a card in one deck does not mean you'll use it the same way in another deck. For example, one use of Urborg, Tomb... can be to combo with Karma, or Angry Mob. Using Timetwister for damage Underworld Dreams / Molten Psyche / Black Vise, or for just recycling your yard and grabbing 7. Different uses, but same card.
Indeed. It's just a game. Why do you need to proxy?
I dont see people whining about wanting to proxy things when they can't (MMO's). Yet suddenly when they can cheat the system with a pencil/printer it's ok.
People who proxy hate magic as a game while pretending to like the idea of it. (not counting "in the mail" or testing proxies)
In my defense, my Mana crypt is proxied in only one of my decks. All of them would probably benefit from it, but I feel like only Karn and Melek really need them (so they're the only 2 with them).
But there are tons of cards that are "just good cards" that you should probably be playing in almost every deck of a given color.
There really aren't. Sol Ring is a particularly bad example to have pulled because it does in fact make every deck (barring outliers with no colorless mana costs) better.
Something like Sun Titan is better, because, while it is a good card, it's not a good card in every deck. It's not a good card in every deck that runs W. It's not even a good card in every mono-white deck.
In this specific example there are a couple of reasons why your net fun is probably higher w/o Sol Ring everywhere:
1. It is that much more fun when you do get to use it, i.e. you don't get bored of it as quickly.
This is a terrible comment to make. Sol Ring does different things for my different decks. I don't get tired of playing Island just because I have two decks with blue or Mountain because I have three decks with red in them.
2. You get a chance to explore different interactions with an alternative like the Bauble. Maybe you find a way to recur the Bauble. Maybe you run a mass artifact sweeper that kills everyone else's Sol Rings and Crypts while your Bauble mana remains untouched. Suffice it to say that the variety can add a lot to your overall experience...but your eyes have to be open to that potential. If you approach it with the negative attitude of "I wish this was a Sol Ring" then you are less likely to find the fun/potential in the alternatives.
I have decks that abuse things like the Bauble, and guess what? In those decks I'm glad I have it and the Sol Ring. Just because I like using the good cards doesn't mean I can't try "new fun happyland things" with other cards.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
Indeed. It's just a game. Why do you need to proxy?
I dont see people whining about wanting to proxy things when they can't (MMO's). Yet suddenly when they can cheat the system with a pencil/printer it's ok.
People who proxy hate magic as a game while pretending to like the idea of it. (not counting "in the mail" or testing proxies)
I knew you were stuck-up but damn, man.
How, pray tell, do you make a connection between using proxies and "hating Magic"? I hope you actually have a reasoning for this and aren't just spouting self-centered nonsense.
How, pray tell, do you make a connection between using proxies and "hating Magic"? I hope you actually have a reasoning for this and aren't just spouting self-centered nonsense.
Magic is expensive. Proxying to save money then poorly justifying it means you don't like/support your game. Pretend I'm wrong all you want. I'll keep playing within my means.
How, pray tell, do you make a connection between using proxies and "hating Magic"? I hope you actually have a reasoning for this and aren't just spouting self-centered nonsense.
It's simple: Paying for cards supports the game.
Even cards bought on the secondary market. It's the fact that cards retain their value that allows Hasbro/WotC to sell more cards and be a profitable business.
If you like the game, you should support it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
My opinion of proxies have soured a bit after experiencing the gazillionth The Sticky Note over a basic land card of Tawnos infinites, print-out Portal series extra turn spell spam, and the written note at Pendrell Vale being obnoxious in general. I prefer proxies to be of cards you already have that happen to be in multiple decks but you can't for get your hands on extras.
However I don't speak out against the practice of proxying cards that the deck builder will never, ever own. I guess I just don't want to rain on their parade or something.
I don't see a problem with proxying a card to test it out before committing to spending the money to acquire one. I also don't see a problem with proxying a card you own and want to put into multiple decks. There really is no reason to go out and buy/trade for a Sol Ring/fetch/dual/top for every deck you own when the format is singleton. All you're doing is saving people time by not having to pull out cards from other decks to play.
I mean it's honestly a casual format so I don't see why people have such entitlement issues with people owning actual cards as long as they're not playing in tournaments.
Nothing in this game is degenerate or completely dominant. They haven't banned anything in standard in a long, long time. Hell they should have banned affinity right away, but they didn't until boxed sales collapsed too. Hasbro had to come in and fire people.
I'll enjoy watching all the whiners eat crow monday.
Magic is expensive. Proxying to save money then poorly justifying it means you don't like/support your game. Pretend I'm wrong all you want. I'll keep playing within my means.
So, basically, you're taking a stance based on some lame notion of "supporting the game" when "supporting the game" is not any player's responsibility. The game doesn't need every last cent you can bear to give it.
You're basically just holding everyone to an unreasonable standard. Which is a pretty laughable fallacy.
Just a reminder guys, please don't troll and flame each other. I am fine with this sort of conversation but if this goes bad, it wont be a conversation we can have.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
So, basically, you're taking a stance based on some lame notion of "supporting the game" when "supporting the game" is not any player's responsibility. The game doesn't need every last cent you can bear to give it.
You're basically just holding everyone to an unreasonable standard. Which is a pretty laughable fallacy.
Wait...it is an unreasonable standard to expect your opponents to be playing with actual game pieces?
So, basically, you're taking a stance based on some lame notion of "supporting the game" when "supporting the game" is not any player's responsibility. The game doesn't need every last cent you can bear to give it.
You're basically just holding everyone to an unreasonable standard. Which is a pretty laughable fallacy.
It is not an unreasonable standard to expect people to pay for what they use.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
No, it's unreasonable to expect people to worry about giving WotC money. The game doesn't need any one player concerning themselves with the financials of Wizards of the Coast.
Your first and only concern should be playing Magic and having fun.
No, it's unreasonable to expect people to worry about giving WotC money. The game doesn't need any one player concerning themselves with the financials of Wizards of the Coast.
Your first and only concern should be playing Magic and having fun.
No, it's unreasonable to think that "your fun" deserves to be free.
This is the same argument as pirating music and movies. Maybe you (personally) won't have much of an effect on the industry. Maybe you don't feel like you should have to pay to enjoy someone else's work. Maybe you won't even get caught (most people don't). But damned if you're going to convince me it's somehow ethical or moral.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
No, it's unreasonable to think that "your fun" deserves to be free.
This is the same argument as pirating music and movies. Maybe you (personally) won't have much of an effect on the industry. Maybe you don't feel like you should have to pay to enjoy someone else's work. But damned if you're going to convince me it's somehow ethical or moral.
This. Regardless of the effect, it's still "wrong". But again people will just justify/rationalize all day. We can't stop it.
This. Regardless of the effect, it's still "wrong". But again people will just justify/rationalize all day. We can't stop it.
Yet you play on cockatrice...
Drawing a comparison between pirating music and proxy cards is slim at best. Context matters here. Mainly, the amount of proxy cards is far less then pirated music. Proxy cards have little to no impact on the primary or secondary market, where as pirated music does.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Magic is infinitely better when everyone has access to all the cards.
Firstly, like there is a niche justification for piracy in situations where availability is an issue, such as video games that have long gone out of print because the companies that own their intellectual properties refuse to either sell them or reintroduce them themselves. It's important to remember that some cards are far out of reach for the lion's share of players. I don't mean you should tolerate a six thousand dollar proxied Stax deck, but if one guy wants a.. I dunno. A Imperial Recruiter or something for Marton Stromgald then proxies are the best solution and for no fault of his or her own. Piracy is wrong, but if the company isn't willing to make what you want actually available to you or is legally or morally bound to a prior agreement (such as the Reserve list) then **** it. The money the company loses because of theft/piracy/proxies/et al. in this situation is their own fault.
Second, this isn't a matter of anyone feeling they should be allowed to play the game for free. It's a matter of some cards in this game being difficult to afford and/or acquire and proxies being a fine enough solution for that. It's ridiculous that anyone should have to pay upwards of $400 for four pieces of rectangular cardboard with a picture of a smug butthead in a stupid looking hoodie on the front.
I guess I'm the opposite of a few people in this thread. I'll only proxy when it's a really cheap card. The only proxy I'm currently using is Children of Korlis. That should pretty much say where I stand on the issue.
It's ridiculous that anyone should have to pay upwards of $400 for four pieces of rectangular cardboard with a picture of a smug butthead in a stupid looking hoodie on the front.
No, it's ridiculous that anyone should feel like they need to have those cards without paying for them to be able to have fun and that as a result, they shouldn't have to pay for them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"[Screw] you and the green you ramped in on." - My EDH battle cry. If I had one. Which I don't.
Drawing a comparison between pirating music and proxy cards is slim at best. Context matters here. Mainly, the amount of proxy cards is far less then pirated music. Proxy cards have little to no impact on the primary or secondary market, where as pirated music does.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Magic is infinitely better when everyone has access to all the cards.
My decks on Trice are only composed of cards I own all the copies for.
Magic like all things is dulled with perfect equality.
But there are tons of cards that are "just good cards" that you should probably be playing in almost every deck of a given color.
In the long run do you really feel like you will be having more fun playing those most powerful options over and over again?
In this specific example there are a couple of reasons why your net fun is probably higher w/o Sol Ring everywhere:
1. It is that much more fun when you do get to use it, i.e. you don't get bored of it as quickly.
2. You get a chance to explore different interactions with an alternative like the Bauble. Maybe you find a way to recur the Bauble. Maybe you run a mass artifact sweeper that kills everyone else's Sol Rings and Crypts while your Bauble mana remains untouched. Suffice it to say that the variety can add a lot to your overall experience...but your eyes have to be open to that potential. If you approach it with the negative attitude of "I wish this was a Sol Ring" then you are less likely to find the fun/potential in the alternatives.
I am OK with it with a few conditions:
For those who say, "Use other cards and be creative. There's no reason you have to use Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in every B deck". I would say, that using a card in one deck does not mean you'll use it the same way in another deck. For example, one use of Urborg, Tomb... can be to combo with Karma, or Angry Mob. Using Timetwister for damage Underworld Dreams / Molten Psyche / Black Vise, or for just recycling your yard and grabbing 7. Different uses, but same card.
Indeed. It's just a game. Why do you need to proxy?
I dont see people whining about wanting to proxy things when they can't (MMO's). Yet suddenly when they can cheat the system with a pencil/printer it's ok.
People who proxy hate magic as a game while pretending to like the idea of it. (not counting "in the mail" or testing proxies)
There really aren't. Sol Ring is a particularly bad example to have pulled because it does in fact make every deck (barring outliers with no colorless mana costs) better.
Something like Sun Titan is better, because, while it is a good card, it's not a good card in every deck. It's not a good card in every deck that runs W. It's not even a good card in every mono-white deck.
Yes.
This is a terrible comment to make. Sol Ring does different things for my different decks. I don't get tired of playing Island just because I have two decks with blue or Mountain because I have three decks with red in them.
I have decks that abuse things like the Bauble, and guess what? In those decks I'm glad I have it and the Sol Ring. Just because I like using the good cards doesn't mean I can't try "new fun happyland things" with other cards.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
I knew you were stuck-up but damn, man.
How, pray tell, do you make a connection between using proxies and "hating Magic"? I hope you actually have a reasoning for this and aren't just spouting self-centered nonsense.
Magic is expensive. Proxying to save money then poorly justifying it means you don't like/support your game. Pretend I'm wrong all you want. I'll keep playing within my means.
It's simple: Paying for cards supports the game.
Even cards bought on the secondary market. It's the fact that cards retain their value that allows Hasbro/WotC to sell more cards and be a profitable business.
If you like the game, you should support it.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
However I don't speak out against the practice of proxying cards that the deck builder will never, ever own. I guess I just don't want to rain on their parade or something.
I mean it's honestly a casual format so I don't see why people have such entitlement issues with people owning actual cards as long as they're not playing in tournaments.
Who's eating crow?
So, basically, you're taking a stance based on some lame notion of "supporting the game" when "supporting the game" is not any player's responsibility. The game doesn't need every last cent you can bear to give it.
You're basically just holding everyone to an unreasonable standard. Which is a pretty laughable fallacy.
What infinities are you talking about, You realize it taps right?
Signature by Inkfox Aesthetics by Xen
[Modern] Allies
Wait...it is an unreasonable standard to expect your opponents to be playing with actual game pieces?
It is not an unreasonable standard to expect people to pay for what they use.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
Your first and only concern should be playing Magic and having fun.
No, it's unreasonable to think that "your fun" deserves to be free.
This is the same argument as pirating music and movies. Maybe you (personally) won't have much of an effect on the industry. Maybe you don't feel like you should have to pay to enjoy someone else's work. Maybe you won't even get caught (most people don't). But damned if you're going to convince me it's somehow ethical or moral.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
This. Regardless of the effect, it's still "wrong". But again people will just justify/rationalize all day. We can't stop it.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
And you do realize people have their ways to untap/bounce and replay that accursed thing right.
Stupid Capsize.
Yet you play on cockatrice...
Drawing a comparison between pirating music and proxy cards is slim at best. Context matters here. Mainly, the amount of proxy cards is far less then pirated music. Proxy cards have little to no impact on the primary or secondary market, where as pirated music does.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Magic is infinitely better when everyone has access to all the cards.
Second, this isn't a matter of anyone feeling they should be allowed to play the game for free. It's a matter of some cards in this game being difficult to afford and/or acquire and proxies being a fine enough solution for that. It's ridiculous that anyone should have to pay upwards of $400 for four pieces of rectangular cardboard with a picture of a smug butthead in a stupid looking hoodie on the front.
No, it's ridiculous that anyone should feel like they need to have those cards without paying for them to be able to have fun and that as a result, they shouldn't have to pay for them.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
My decks on Trice are only composed of cards I own all the copies for.
Magic like all things is dulled with perfect equality.