Even if a deck is built so that it can realize a turn 2 Primordial, the odds of that happening are still very low. You can only run one Entomb, after all... and the odds of a player who does land a turn 2 Sylvan Primordial being able to win a game of Archenemy (b/c that's what the game has just turned into, obv.) are narrower still. If it happens once in a great while, fine. EDH is supposed to have crazy stupid games now and then; it's part of the charm.
You can cast Braids, Smokestack, the artifact that taps permanents down forget what it's called. There's ways to just easily win off the back of something like that win built right. You can cast bribery, or retrigger the primordial. Build the deck right, those odds aren't so slim.
I'm not hipser enough to not play with Sylvan just because it's powerful, but seeing the same cards again game after game gets dull. It's not going to be the death of the format or anything, but there was that brief period after Primeval Titan was banned (and before Sylvan was printed) when you weren't quite sure what that GSZ might be fetching. That was nice.
About not seeing the same cards over and over again is very valid. There are games which I played in when all the interactions revolve around the primodials, sometimes even the same one. The game just gets tiring and dumbed down after a while.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
I hope you don't like sports. Like any sport. It's the same thing over and over.
At least we get new cards once in awhile.
There is a finite selection of cards to choose from. Play it enough and the game will get boring. That is the universe you live in.
The analogy breaks down when you consider that all hockey teams don't have access to Wayne Gretzky in his prime, nor do all baseball teams have access to Ken Griffey Jr. in his prime, etc. Old cards don't lose their potency, whereas sports players age and die.
The analogy breaks down when you consider that all hockey teams don't have access to Wayne Gretzky in his prime, nor do all baseball teams have access to Ken Griffey Jr. in his prime, etc. Old cards don't lose their potency, whereas sports players age and die.
Good to know sports continually invent new rules and new equipment to play with.
Seeing as soulbound has been around since the dawn of magic as a few other mechanics. Planeswalkers too?
Good to know sports continually invent new rules and new equipment to play with.
Seeing as soulbound has been around since the dawn of magic as a few other mechanics. Planeswalkers too?
Please.
His point is valid. New mechanics and cards don't affect the functionality of the old cards in any way. Outside of some extremely rare functional oracle changes, and more common templating oracle changes, what's printed on the cards stays on the cards.
They are all fine and they are not getting the ban hammer anytime soon. no matter how many of these threads pop up. I know people say hes op on turn 3 but what isnt?
They are all fine and they are not getting the ban hammer anytime soon. no matter how many of these threads pop up. I know people say hes op on turn 3 but what isnt?
Grey Ogre.
Sports are different. The fact that you're physically testing yourself is a big part of the enjoyment. Magic is purely mental, so I need a new challenge to keep it interesting. Every game is different no matter how many format staples are printed, but the more diversity in how the game is played and won the better. Sylvan is fine, but brainless. More cards like him is not what I want.
Green primordial really needs to be on the table for a ban.
It warps games it's involved in the same way Primeval Titan and Koko do, where the entire game changes to reanimating/cloning primordials.
A six card swing is fairly ridiculous, especially when it's front loaded onto the ETB trigger rather than being spread out around the turn order like Consecrated Sphinx, or stapled onto the cast/attack trigger of an Ulamog.
New mechanics and cards don't affect the functionality of the old cards in any way.
I don't think that's true. In some small, potential way, the printing of, for example, Restoration Angel changed the functionality of any ETB creature printed before it.
The creation of Planeswalkers certainly changed the functionality of every player-based burn spell.
And every mono-G 2/2 reduces the functionality of Grizzly Bears. Sure, in a vacuum, the bears are still a 2/2 that can turn sideways. But that's a very, very narrow view of how a card functions.
Anyways, Sylvan is pretty annoying, but that's it. If I was going for a re-animator target, I'd just as soon pick Jin-Gitaxias, or Iona, or Avacyn, or a host of other things that would be just as terrifying on turn 3.
On a different note (not discussing the banlist at all) I've recently come to realize how straight-up nuts Sepulchral Primordial is. If anybody at the table has a clone in their graveyard, it turns an empty board into instant dominance. Even if one or two of your opponents have mostly utility dudes, bodies are bodies.
He's jumped over Diluvian in my opinion. Diluvian can get a bigger one-shot effect, but is harder to continuously re-use. A board wipe then reanimate on Sepulchral just starts the fun all over. The difference lies in that Diluvian exiles the spells...
The only way Sylvan becomes a problem is if the same thing starts happening with what did with PeT. I think the additional mana cost also helps to push it back a turn, as the numbers in magic favor casting GSZ for 7 on an earlier turn, but not so much 8, but the ETB effect more than makes up for it I think.
Everyone here could make up scenarios all day long that make the Primordials seem OP, but all it takes is for people to play strategically, to play better and to formulate decks that include flexible/multipurpose answer cards.
Diluvian can certainly be very potent when playing against certain decks. A couple Time Stretch in opposing graveyards comes to mind.
I don't think that's true. In some small, potential way, the printing of, for example, Restoration Angel changed the functionality of any ETB creature printed before it.
The creation of Planeswalkers certainly changed the functionality of every player-based burn spell.
And every mono-G 2/2 reduces the functionality of Grizzly Bears. Sure, in a vacuum, the bears are still a 2/2 that can turn sideways. But that's a very, very narrow view of how a card functions.
That's actually a different point. No matter what cards are printed in the future, Grizzly Bears will always be a 2/2 for 1G and Primeval Titan will always be a 6/6 for 4GG with an enters the battlefield ability that puts two lands into play. Basically, printed cards won't ever deteriorate with age. They won't ever cost more mana to cast and their power and toughness won't decrease with time. Although I will admit that rules changes do affect what the effects of a card can do while in play. The loss of mana burn reduced negated the design choices of some cards such as Valley Maker and removing damage on the stack did impact cards such as Morphling. Still, the abilities of those cards haven't changed, you can still sac a forest and add mana to a players mana pool with Valleymaker and you can still pump either power or toughness with Morphling's abilities.
It's not "a very, very narrow view of how a card functions" as you put it, but literally how a card functions. What you see printed on the card is what you get.
Still, what the new cards will do is change the relative power levels of existing cards. This can come in various forms such as new interactions making older cards much more efficient (Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths) or simply outclassing the old cards (Ashcoat Bears and Grizzly Bears). In general, I'd say that wizards have been pretty good about printing cards that attempt to hate out the most powerful older cards in order to reduce their overall power level, but at the same time they've been doing a somewhat questionable job of keeping the newer cards from far outclassing the older ones. I'm fairly concerned with the power creep of creatures that we've seen in recent sets. It's fine for the pendulum to swing in the favor of creatures, but when they swing so much as to make creatures sorceries with legs it becomes a bit of a problem.
Think of it this way, would this card ever see print?
Sepulchral Generation 5BB
Sorcery
Put a 5/4 black avatar token with intimidate onto the battlefield.
For each opponent, you may put up to one target creature card from that player's graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.
A couple days ago we were playing 2-headed giant and between the two of us we managed to bring sylvan primordial 8 times against those guys and they still kept fighting. There was a lethal vapors out so the primordials kept dying but it was still worth it to take their lands away. Those guys were all class for hanging in there.
The only way Sylvan becomes a problem is if the same thing starts happening with what did with PeT. I think the additional mana cost also helps to push it back a turn, as the numbers in magic favor casting GSZ for 7 on an earlier turn, but not so much 8, but the ETB effect more than makes up for it I think.
Everyone here could make up scenarios all day long that make the Primordials seem OP, but all it takes is for people to play strategically, to play better and to formulate decks that include flexible/multipurpose answer cards.
Diluvian can certainly be very potent when playing against certain decks. A couple Time Stretch in opposing graveyards comes to mind.
It is easier said than done though, saying there are answers for everything or to play better and strategically to solve the problem. In most instances it is just easier to create the problem.
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
I hate the primordials simply because they were designed and pushed to be instant EDH staples. There's nothing interesting about their design. They just scream PLAY ME IN EVERY DECK BECAUSE WIZARDS SAYS SO. They don't lead to any cool interactions and there's no "look what I can do" feeling when playing one. Edh is supposed to be fun and different, but they are homogenous and boring. Mostly because they are way too powerful, and they are ETB effects which makes them abusable in the most obvious of ways.
I hate the primordials simply because they were designed and pushed to be instant EDH staples. There's nothing interesting about their design. They just scream PLAY ME IN EVERY DECK BECAUSE WIZARDS SAYS SO. They don't lead to any cool interactions and there's no "look what I can do" feeling when playing one. Edh is supposed to be fun and different, but they are homogenous and boring. Mostly because they are way too powerful, and they are ETB effects which makes them abusable in the most obvious of ways.
Someone is angry about the primordials apparently.
The titans were the same way when they first came out. OMG PLAY ME IM IN YOUR COLORS.
There is totally a look what I can do feeling. They are very interesting and can do some amazing things and seriously fun interactions. And in EDH when it comes to enter the battlefield effects, abuse is the best way.
The primordials arent the only ones with massive ETB abilities that can be abused. Heard of the Revilliark/Saffi combo? Or any infinite combo from Sharuum? Thanks ETB...
They are fun. They won't get banned. If you don't like them don't play them. EDH is fun and the blue and black primordials definitely make it different and not boring. Would you rather me keep boucning an acidic slime? Or play spell entwine? Or animate dead something in your graveyard? Or win with insurrection? Same effect...
I don't know why people are still complaining.
It is easier said than done though, saying there are answers for everything or to play better and strategically to solve the problem. In most instances it is just easier to create the problem.
Aye, saying is easier than doing - but why would you just create a problem because it feels or seems easier? That's not exactly a good outlook
If the store owner says that I can't trade in the premises, I'll just go outside. If he says that I can't trade within 10m of his premises, I'll go to 11 meters. If he says that he doesn't want to see me trading, I will put a basket over his head and continue trading.
Yes, he's a local legend. He's only known to take his clothes off before he goes into the Ladies' Lockerroom. Nobody knows what he does in there because he's invisible, but it's almost certainly tons of masturbating.
I think it's entirely accurate to call the Primordials broken design just within the cycle.
The white effect is costed at W.
The red effect is costed at 2R.
The green effect is costed at 2GG plus 1G.
The white effect is actually costed higher than that because Swords is an overpowered card and shouldn't be used for the baseline. It's probably closer to 3ish if it were printed today (and it never should be).
The blue effect is roughly 3-4 mana. The black is 4.
So really, the abilities are pretty balanced (with the slight exception of green for having 2 effects instead of one and white having a drawback).
The only one that I have a problem with is the green one, and it's not actually due to the faux-"two for one" effect it has. What I do have a problem with is that the player has no choice in regards to its ability; that is, if the player only has lands as their non-creature permanent, then they're losing a land.
This may seem like a small thing to gripe about, but in our playgroup there are a lot of Austere Command and Akroma's Vengeance thrown around, and it's not uncommon for multiple people to have only lands when a SP is played. I've lost count of the number of times that I've heard some variation of "Sorry, I have to" when it enters the battlefield, and for some decks losing even one land can be crippling.
This isn't even going into what happens when multiples are cloned/Reanimated/whatever. I recently played in a game where SP's entered the battlefield 5 times over the course of the game, and at least one player was utterly screwed by having his lands repeatedly blown up (and I'm talking basics here, nothing that would actually be dangerous). Needless to say, there were negative feelings regarding the game: While I can't support previous game hate, I also can't deny that the person responsible was the first to die for the next three games. This in turn created more negative feelings and the whole thing was just awful.
I suppose that the TL;DR here is that the cycle as a whole would have been better off by letting you choose which opponents were affected and which weren't (if any) so that it didn't further punish people who were behind.
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I hope you don't like sports. Like any sport. It's the same thing over and over.
At least we get new cards once in awhile.
There is a finite selection of cards to choose from. Play it enough and the game will get boring. That is the universe you live in.
You can cast Braids, Smokestack, the artifact that taps permanents down forget what it's called. There's ways to just easily win off the back of something like that win built right. You can cast bribery, or retrigger the primordial. Build the deck right, those odds aren't so slim.
I bet you were using the word 'hipster' before it was cool.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
About not seeing the same cards over and over again is very valid. There are games which I played in when all the interactions revolve around the primodials, sometimes even the same one. The game just gets tiring and dumbed down after a while.
The analogy breaks down when you consider that all hockey teams don't have access to Wayne Gretzky in his prime, nor do all baseball teams have access to Ken Griffey Jr. in his prime, etc. Old cards don't lose their potency, whereas sports players age and die.
Good to know sports continually invent new rules and new equipment to play with.
Seeing as soulbound has been around since the dawn of magic as a few other mechanics. Planeswalkers too?
Please.
His point is valid. New mechanics and cards don't affect the functionality of the old cards in any way. Outside of some extremely rare functional oracle changes, and more common templating oracle changes, what's printed on the cards stays on the cards.
URThe Joy of Painting with Nin, the Pain Artist!UR
Grey Ogre.
Sports are different. The fact that you're physically testing yourself is a big part of the enjoyment. Magic is purely mental, so I need a new challenge to keep it interesting. Every game is different no matter how many format staples are printed, but the more diversity in how the game is played and won the better. Sylvan is fine, but brainless. More cards like him is not what I want.
It warps games it's involved in the same way Primeval Titan and Koko do, where the entire game changes to reanimating/cloning primordials.
A six card swing is fairly ridiculous, especially when it's front loaded onto the ETB trigger rather than being spread out around the turn order like Consecrated Sphinx, or stapled onto the cast/attack trigger of an Ulamog.
I don't think that's true. In some small, potential way, the printing of, for example, Restoration Angel changed the functionality of any ETB creature printed before it.
The creation of Planeswalkers certainly changed the functionality of every player-based burn spell.
And every mono-G 2/2 reduces the functionality of Grizzly Bears. Sure, in a vacuum, the bears are still a 2/2 that can turn sideways. But that's a very, very narrow view of how a card functions.
Anyways, Sylvan is pretty annoying, but that's it. If I was going for a re-animator target, I'd just as soon pick Jin-Gitaxias, or Iona, or Avacyn, or a host of other things that would be just as terrifying on turn 3.
On a different note (not discussing the banlist at all) I've recently come to realize how straight-up nuts Sepulchral Primordial is. If anybody at the table has a clone in their graveyard, it turns an empty board into instant dominance. Even if one or two of your opponents have mostly utility dudes, bodies are bodies.
He's jumped over Diluvian in my opinion. Diluvian can get a bigger one-shot effect, but is harder to continuously re-use. A board wipe then reanimate on Sepulchral just starts the fun all over. The difference lies in that Diluvian exiles the spells...
Draft my Peasant Cube.
Everyone here could make up scenarios all day long that make the Primordials seem OP, but all it takes is for people to play strategically, to play better and to formulate decks that include flexible/multipurpose answer cards.
Diluvian can certainly be very potent when playing against certain decks. A couple Time Stretch in opposing graveyards comes to mind.
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
That's actually a different point. No matter what cards are printed in the future, Grizzly Bears will always be a 2/2 for 1G and Primeval Titan will always be a 6/6 for 4GG with an enters the battlefield ability that puts two lands into play. Basically, printed cards won't ever deteriorate with age. They won't ever cost more mana to cast and their power and toughness won't decrease with time. Although I will admit that rules changes do affect what the effects of a card can do while in play. The loss of mana burn reduced negated the design choices of some cards such as Valley Maker and removing damage on the stack did impact cards such as Morphling. Still, the abilities of those cards haven't changed, you can still sac a forest and add mana to a players mana pool with Valleymaker and you can still pump either power or toughness with Morphling's abilities.
It's not "a very, very narrow view of how a card functions" as you put it, but literally how a card functions. What you see printed on the card is what you get.
Still, what the new cards will do is change the relative power levels of existing cards. This can come in various forms such as new interactions making older cards much more efficient (Vampire Hexmage and Dark Depths) or simply outclassing the old cards (Ashcoat Bears and Grizzly Bears). In general, I'd say that wizards have been pretty good about printing cards that attempt to hate out the most powerful older cards in order to reduce their overall power level, but at the same time they've been doing a somewhat questionable job of keeping the newer cards from far outclassing the older ones. I'm fairly concerned with the power creep of creatures that we've seen in recent sets. It's fine for the pendulum to swing in the favor of creatures, but when they swing so much as to make creatures sorceries with legs it becomes a bit of a problem.
Think of it this way, would this card ever see print?
Sepulchral Generation 5BB
Sorcery
Put a 5/4 black avatar token with intimidate onto the battlefield.
For each opponent, you may put up to one target creature card from that player's graveyard onto the battlefield under your control.
My G Yisan, the Bard of Death G deck.
My BUGWR Hermit druid BUGWR deck.
It is easier said than done though, saying there are answers for everything or to play better and strategically to solve the problem. In most instances it is just easier to create the problem.
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Someone is angry about the primordials apparently.
The titans were the same way when they first came out. OMG PLAY ME IM IN YOUR COLORS.
There is totally a look what I can do feeling. They are very interesting and can do some amazing things and seriously fun interactions. And in EDH when it comes to enter the battlefield effects, abuse is the best way.
The primordials arent the only ones with massive ETB abilities that can be abused. Heard of the Revilliark/Saffi combo? Or any infinite combo from Sharuum? Thanks ETB...
They are fun. They won't get banned. If you don't like them don't play them. EDH is fun and the blue and black primordials definitely make it different and not boring. Would you rather me keep boucning an acidic slime? Or play spell entwine? Or animate dead something in your graveyard? Or win with insurrection? Same effect...
I don't know why people are still complaining.
Aye, saying is easier than doing - but why would you just create a problem because it feels or seems easier? That's not exactly a good outlook
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The Titans ain't like the primodials. The Primodials are just broken in multiplayer. The bigger the group the more insanely broken it gets.
I think people need to stop using the word "broken". It's hyperbole and nothing else.
I think it's entirely accurate to call the Primordials broken design just within the cycle.
The white effect is costed at W.
The red effect is costed at 2R.
The green effect is costed at 2GG plus 1G.
Pristaxcontrombmodruu!
an early game Primodial can be game breaking. A late game one is just annoying, but nothing more.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
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The white effect is actually costed higher than that because Swords is an overpowered card and shouldn't be used for the baseline. It's probably closer to 3ish if it were printed today (and it never should be).
The blue effect is roughly 3-4 mana. The black is 4.
So really, the abilities are pretty balanced (with the slight exception of green for having 2 effects instead of one and white having a drawback).
This may seem like a small thing to gripe about, but in our playgroup there are a lot of Austere Command and Akroma's Vengeance thrown around, and it's not uncommon for multiple people to have only lands when a SP is played. I've lost count of the number of times that I've heard some variation of "Sorry, I have to" when it enters the battlefield, and for some decks losing even one land can be crippling.
This isn't even going into what happens when multiples are cloned/Reanimated/whatever. I recently played in a game where SP's entered the battlefield 5 times over the course of the game, and at least one player was utterly screwed by having his lands repeatedly blown up (and I'm talking basics here, nothing that would actually be dangerous). Needless to say, there were negative feelings regarding the game: While I can't support previous game hate, I also can't deny that the person responsible was the first to die for the next three games. This in turn created more negative feelings and the whole thing was just awful.
I suppose that the TL;DR here is that the cycle as a whole would have been better off by letting you choose which opponents were affected and which weren't (if any) so that it didn't further punish people who were behind.