I concur with most of these designations, but your opinion of tajic drips with preconceived Boris bias when he's actually a step forward for the legends of that guild, whereas Iroas just another runner in the combat step pack.
The pyroclasm/earthquake/Mark of Asylum combo had no real home until Tajic, and while it's not uber tier good or common, it is NOT strictly hurrdurr combat step. It IS a valid excuse to run Personal Sanctuary mainboard without looking like a nerd though, and that is HyPe.
I'm not saying Iroas isn't pretty standard boros, just that at least he's good.
If tajic prevented the damage to himself I might be more into it, but as is his synergy is:
1) you have to play him first, and then your big burn spell, so it's very mana intensive and slow
2) he's going to die no matter what so you're burning two cards to pull off this maybe-plague-wind combo
3) if gets removed in response, you just owned yourself, and he's very easy to remove
If he prevented it to himself I could at least see a build where you keep quaking turn after turn while smashing in (at least in magic christmas land where no one runs spot removal or creatures big enough to survive a damage wipe), but when he dies every time? No thank you.
I concur with most of these designations, but your opinion of tajic drips with preconceived Boris bias when he's actually a step forward for the legends of that guild, whereas Iroas just another runner in the combat step pack.
The pyroclasm/earthquake/Mark of Asylum combo had no real home until Tajic, and while it's not uber tier good or common, it is NOT strictly hurrdurr combat step. It IS a valid excuse to run Personal Sanctuary mainboard without looking like a nerd though, and that is HyPe.
I'm not saying Iroas isn't pretty standard boros, just that at least he's good.
If tajic prevented the damage to himself I might be more into it, but as is his synergy is:
1) you have to play him first, and then your big burn spell, so it's very mana intensive and slow
2) he's going to die no matter what so you're burning two cards to pull off this maybe-plague-wind combo
3) if gets removed in response, you just owned yourself, and he's very easy to remove
If he prevented it to himself I could at least see a build where you keep quaking turn after turn while smashing in (at least in magic christmas land where no one runs spot removal or creatures big enough to survive a damage wipe), but when he dies every time? No thank you.
Oh, my bad. Didn't RTFC. WELL, I concede this debate. Where do I sign that I acknowledge that Boros is perma-boned?
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
Full Spoiler is out, time to skim through and I see what I could possibly get out of this set.
Cards I'm very likely to insert into my suite:
Crush Contraband - Mainly because I've given up trying to find a foil Return to Dust (and it won't be as cheap when I do), but I'm okay with losing the flexibility of destroying two artifacts or two enchantments in exchange for being able to work at full effectiveness when Sunforgered out. It's unlikely there isn't at least 1 of each card type on the battlefield anyway.
Omnispell Adept - I don't actually see this helping out Approach of the Second Sun in Isperia that much since it is that vulnerable (helps Kira is in though) and I think Approach is pretty much the only big splashy spell I play (although even a cost reduction of U on even a Cryptic Command can be a very mild consolation)... but the flavor is just too perfect I'll find the space for it.
Mausoleum Secrets - Karador-flavored tutor goes into Karador. It can search for Kokusho and that alone makes the card passable even with the color restriction, but another one where the superior flavor trumps the good-but-not-best function.
Doom Whisperer - I think the issue is finding space for the card (likely Karador), but it's has a shot for the space with its power.
Goblin Cratermaker - I'm think the flexibility of weenie and Eldrazi removal does give this credit over the competition (mainly ETB artifact cards) despite needing 1 more mana and a sacrifice, but the sacrifice itself is the answer to its lack of evasion which usually makes stuff less appealing in Alesha.
Risk Factor - Ryusei has plenty of damage doublers and the fact this targets the opponent instead of letting anyone choose, this might be the variant of Browbeat I'd consider playing.
Assassin's Trophy - It's solid removal at the end of the day, and we all know Ghost Quarter is worth 2 mana to get rid of the terrifying nonbasics of the format.
Chance for Glory - I know Final Fortune exists, but it's the indestructible that could potentially sell the card to Sunforger in Alesha, considering it's trying to aggro.
Guildmages' Forum - It's not Opal Palace, but it works on non-Commanders and Animar has a +1/+1 theme, so it's an acceptable copy for redundancy.
Honorable mention for Lazav, the Multifarious for the card that probably tempted me the most to build something around him. Yes I know most of the Legendary Creatures were mediocre in this set, but precisely it was so I was expecting to the best among them to be "good in 99" at best and not actually tempt me to build something around him, so Lazav really deserves his mention. In fact he's so good I think he's about Atraxa levels of temptation (less mechnically but Lazav fits in my color distribution directly to replace an existing deck which is a huge boon as opposed to Atraxa), which was the best a card ever did. Too bad Atraxa never succeeded either.
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
Having run Nezahal, the Primal Tide as a Sideboard card in standard, I want to say the effect is not at all lame.
I said the design (not the effect) is lame because it's basically just a more powerful version of Niv 1.0, which was already a boring, cookiecutter build that basically required that he be constantly removed in case of combo.
Also this is a commander subforum and I don't care about standard (except insofar as people better keep playing it so wotc doesn't go out of business and I can sell my draft chaff for decent $$$).
I don't think Niv 3 is a "more powerful" version of Niv 1 at all, Niv 1 draws himself cards, this requires another card to be used, and I only brought up standard because that is what I was playing it in, Finally I think it is frankly fantastic that Niv has kept a general set of abilities, it makes the Character actually flavorful instead of whatever random effects they staple on the current iteration of whatever Planeswalkers are getting printed.
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
With the way extra turns work, you'll still lose first from a hive minded last chance.
Oh crap that's right. While the person to your right will be the first person to resolve, yours will resolve last which means you will be the first to get the extra turn. I guess I just have to go with the pacts idea (or find some cool shenanigans. Maybe cast Angel's grace. (or counter the final fortune before yours resolves. (let them all resolve and then gets to you where you counter it.)
Still these are spells i can run in narset with no worry.
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
With the way extra turns work, you'll still lose first from a hive minded last chance.
Oh crap that's right. While the person to your right will be the first person to resolve, yours will resolve last which means you will be the first to get the extra turn. I guess I just have to go with the pacts idea (or find some cool shenanigans. Maybe cast Angel's grace. (or counter the final fortune before yours resolves. (let them all resolve and then gets to you where you counter it.)
Still these are spells i can run in narset with no worry.
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
With the way extra turns work, you'll still lose first from a hive minded last chance.
Oh crap that's right. While the person to your right will be the first person to resolve, yours will resolve last which means you will be the first to get the extra turn. I guess I just have to go with the pacts idea (or find some cool shenanigans. Maybe cast Angel's grace. (or counter the final fortune before yours resolves. (let them all resolve and then gets to you where you counter it.)
Still these are spells i can run in narset with no worry.
I don't think Niv 3 is a "more powerful" version of Niv 1 at all, Niv 1 draws himself cards, this requires another card to be used, and I only brought up standard because that is what I was playing it in, Finally I think it is frankly fantastic that Niv has kept a general set of abilities, it makes the Character actually flavorful instead of whatever random effects they staple on the current iteration of whatever Planeswalkers are getting printed.
Niv 2.0 was a similar concept (drawing + damage) to niv 1.0 that plays very differently. Niv 1.0 is mostly a combo machine that also synergizes ok with wheels. Niv 2.0 is mostly a mana dump that draws you cards and gives you removal and inevitability. Despite superficial similarities, they play very differently.
Niv 3.0, on the other hand, plays nearly identically to niv 1.0. If Niv 3.0 was worded as:
No counters!
Flying
Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery, draw a card. When you do, Niv deals 1 damage to any target.
At the beginning of your draw step, niv deals 1 damage to any target.
Then that would be a fresh take on a similar concept - now you're incentivized to sling spells in order to get cards and ping value. But because they used the exact same ability as 1.0, he's going to play basically the same - as a dumb combo machine that can't be allowed to live. Except now he'll draw you a card when he eats removal, and he can't be countered, and he's fatter. Thanks, WotC, I hate it.
I don't think Niv 3 is a "more powerful" version of Niv 1 at all, Niv 1 draws himself cards, this requires another card to be used, and I only brought up standard because that is what I was playing it in, Finally I think it is frankly fantastic that Niv has kept a general set of abilities, it makes the Character actually flavorful instead of whatever random effects they staple on the current iteration of whatever Planeswalkers are getting printed.
Niv 2.0 was a similar concept (drawing + damage) to niv 1.0 that plays very differently. Niv 1.0 is mostly a combo machine that also synergizes ok with wheels. Niv 2.0 is mostly a mana dump that draws you cards and gives you removal and inevitability. Despite superficial similarities, they play very differently.
Niv 3.0, on the other hand, plays nearly identically to niv 1.0. If Niv 3.0 was worded as:
No counters!
Flying
Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery, draw a card. When you do, Niv deals 1 damage to any target.
At the beginning of your draw step, niv deals 1 damage to any target.
Then that would be a fresh take on a similar concept - now you're incentivized to sling spells in order to get cards and ping value. But because they used the exact same ability as 1.0, he's going to play basically the same - as a dumb combo machine that can't be allowed to live. Except now he'll draw you a card when he eats removal, and he can't be countered, and he's fatter. Thanks, WotC, I hate it.
i want to run all 3 nivs in my locust god deck (Locust god, Brudiclad and Okaum and Zndrsplt are the three decks i want to build)
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
With the way extra turns work, you'll still lose first from a hive minded last chance.
Oh crap that's right. While the person to your right will be the first person to resolve, yours will resolve last which means you will be the first to get the extra turn. I guess I just have to go with the pacts idea (or find some cool shenanigans. Maybe cast Angel's grace. (or counter the final fortune before yours resolves. (let them all resolve and then gets to you where you counter it.)
Still these are spells i can run in narset with no worry.
So much good stuff in this set for EDH. My take on some of the more interesting cards...
White Bounty Agent - White is not necessarily short on answer cards, but being recurrable with Sun Titan, Adarkar Valkyrie, etc. makes this a nice way to keep opposing commanders in check. Couple that with the fact that cards like Paradox Engine, Alhammarret's Archive, The Chain Veil, Growing Rites of Itlimoc, etc. are all Legendary, and I doubt you will be short potential targets for this. The downside here is that it doesn't exile, so commanders like Purphoros, God of the Forge and other indestructibles are unaffected. Citywide Bust - Mass removal at only 3 mana is always a nice option to have, and sometimes you will have a deck where most of your dudes are 4-toughness and less so that they slide right under the radar. Dawn of Hope - Another solid lifegain payoff, it compares nicely to Well of Lost Dreams. Giving you a potential source of Lifelinkng tokens is a nice bonus. Divine Visitation - Upgrading tokens from 1/1's or 0/1's to 4/4 flyers is kinda amazing. Some decks make tokens naturally will love this (Ghave, Guru of Spores, Marath, Will of the Wild, and Hazezon Tamar all seem to be particularly saucy), and there are plenty of ways to create small tokens on the cheap to really make the upgrade worthwhile. Venerated Loxodon - I don't think this is a particularly great card, but I do want to point out that Convoke plays very well with Paradox Engine and in this case would allow you to then attack with all the recently buffed creatures used to convoke it out. Blue Chemister's Insight & Radical Idea - I like the idea of both of these cards. There are many reasons to want card from your hand back into your graveyard so paying the Jump Start cost can be a benefit in a lot of cases, and even just pitching a land late-game or a high-CMC card in the early game can go a long way to smoothing out draws. Coupled with the fact that these are both instants makes me like them a little better than something like Deep Analysis or Compulsive Research in certain situations. Enhanced Surveilance - A comment in general on Surveil; improving your draw quality while simultaneously putting cards into your graveyard has many many ways to encourage/enable tons of shenanigans. Adding a bunch of Surveil effects to something like a reanimator strategy seems like it could be good, and once you hit a high enough threshold of Surveil cards then Enhanced Surveilance starts to make sense. I think that there might be just enough Surveil cards to hit that threshold for an EDH deck, and Surveil in general seems pretty good. Murmuring Mystic - Not quite as good as getting 2/2 Flying Drakes, but getting payoffs like this for doing what blue decks already want to do is always welcome. And it's a Wizard to boot. Omnispell Adept - Being able to cast huge Instants and Sorceries on the cheap is nice, and getting to drop a Sorcery on someone at Instant speed can be deadly. Combine with Gilded Lotus and Paradox Engine for total shenanigans... Quasiduplicate - I will likely not be able to resist putting this into my Riku of Two Reflections deck. Given that 3 manaClones are the new standard, this seems pretty good. Black Doom Whisperer - So getting a 6/6/ Flying Trampling Demon is supposed to come with a drawback, not a converted mana cost of five.... And paying life (and no mana) to Surveil just seems busted. I'm not quite sure exactly how I'm going to work this into my decks, but I'm pretty sure that this will land somewhere saucy and enable all sorts of graveyard shenanigans. Gruesome Menagerie - Tons of value to be had, with only the fact that a lot of decks just don't run a lot of 1-drop creatures. Plaguecrafter - With Fleshbag Marauder being popular with many players, I can see this being an upgrade. Red Experimental Frenzy - Generating card advantage in red is not easy, so rigging the top of your deck with Sensei's Divining Top or Scroll Rack and living off the top of your library seems like a potentially winning proposition. You can also Donate this to a non-red player (so they can't activate it's ability to sacrifice it) and drop a Grafdigger's Cage for lockout shenanigans. Goblin Cratermaker - For the Goblin decks that really hate artifacts and Eldrazi... Legion Warboss - Another nice add to Goblin tribal decks. Risk Factor - So "Punisher" type card like this aren't considered particularly good because the opponent gets to choose what you get, but having them have to choose twice makes this a little more appealing than Browbeat. Runaway Steam-Kin - For a color that has issues generating long-term mana acceleration, this at least intrigues me. Only triggering on red spells makes it less appealing for 100 card decks that for 60 card decks, but there is some potential that warrants looking into. Green Beast Whisperer - This is my favorite card of the set. Green has had to rely on cards like Primordial Sage or Soul of the Harvest for this kind of effect (or Glimpse of Nature for only one turn), but getting it for only 4 mana is amazing. And its an Elf and a Druid to boot... Circuitous Route - Another fine way to accelerate mana and/or fix colors at a reasonable cost. Hatchery Spider - Another nice value play for green, albeit with a few hoops to jump through. Vivid Revival - You need the right kind of deck obviously, but getting a 3 for 1 in green is hard to come by. Multicolor Assassin's Trophy - Being able to destroy any permanent for only 2 mana is well worth them getting an extra basic land. Camraderie - A nice tweak on Shamanic Revelation/Collective Unconscious. Etrata, the Silencer - A very interesting alternate win-con, I can see a deck with Etrata at the helm filled with ways to make sure that the opponent has creatures for you to "hit" and protecting Etrata. Firemind's Research - There are lots of cards that trigger on casting instants and sorceries in this set, and this is one that seems to have a lot of upside. To me, the card seems really "fair"; its not great, its not bad, it seems like it is costed just right. I think that you wold need to have some way of either accelerating counters onto it or ways to copy the abilities (like with Rings of Brighthearth or Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient) to really feel like I'm getting enough bang for my buck to get excited about it. Ionize - Slightly worse than Undermine, but I don't Izzet mages will complain that much. Izoni, Thousand-eyed - Golgari value-town. Tokens, lifegain, card draw... it's a floor wax and a dessert topping!!! Knight of Autumn - Having that level of flexibility is really nice, and at a minimum this will be an upgrade over having to play Harmonic Sliver. Mnemonic Betrayal - So having a Yawgmoth's Will for your opponent's graveyard seems spicy, but I doubt that this is going to make many waves in the long term. Niv-Mizzet, Parun - This card is so good. I think it is definitely better than the original Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, with the only thing making it slightly worse is that god-awful mana cost. I will likley stay with Niv 1.0 as my commander, but this will surely make it into the deck. Ral, Izzet Viceroy - This is a pretty strong Planeswalker, with the ability to generate CA, defend itself, and having an awesome ultimate. Mileage will very depending on how good PW's are in your meta, but this one seems fantastic for the cost. Tajic, Legion's Edge - Give him Pro-Red, then every Earthquake effect you cast is a one-sided Wrath. Thief of Sanity - This kind of effect keeps getting cheaper and cheaper, and getting this for 3 mana on a 2/2 Flyer seems pretty good. Thousand-Year Storm - Okay, so the only thing keeping this from being broken is the CMC of 6, but I'm now pretty sure that a deck with card draw and burn spells is now a viable Commander option for Izzet or Grixis. Trostani Discordant - The Brooding Saurion clause set aside, a card that generate two tokens and has an Anthem effect for your whole team (and essentially bringing 5 power tothe party despite the 1/4 stats) seems like a winner to me. Underrealm Lich - Whether you are improving card quality or feeding the graveyard, this card is pretty awesome for generating late-game value. Split Cards
All the split cards are the kinds of cards that you really need to want one side and have the other side be at least somewhat useful in your deck for them to make it, but in general you are going to be able to find more efficient cards to do the job. If you don't need the flexibility, then you are otherwise overpaying for the effects. Artifacts
The Lockets are pretty good in general, especially the Boros one. Any color combination that needs the late game card draw and doesn't get it naturally (ie not blue or black) will likely want a mana rock that produces colored mana that they can trade in for cards. if you ever contemplated adding Mind Stone or Hedron Archive, then a Locket might be what you are looking for. The rest are otherwise underwhelming at best (with the nice reprint of Chromatic Lantern being the lone bright spot). Lands
Shocklands and Gates returning are both welcome, with Guildmage's Forum being a nice addition that compare's nicely to Opal Palace and will probably go into the same kinds of decks (Ghave, Marath, Animar, Ulasht, Ramos, etc.)
I skipped a lot of intermediate value cards or cards that already do things that we have cards for that will just slot into the same kinds of decks (for example, any deck that runs Boros Reckoner will likely also want Truefire Captain), but overall there is a lot of cool cars in this set that will likely see play somewhere.
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
With the way extra turns work, you'll still lose first from a hive minded last chance.
Oh crap that's right. While the person to your right will be the first person to resolve, yours will resolve last which means you will be the first to get the extra turn. I guess I just have to go with the pacts idea (or find some cool shenanigans. Maybe cast Angel's grace. (or counter the final fortune before yours resolves. (let them all resolve and then gets to you where you counter it.)
Still these are spells i can run in narset with no worry.
With the way extra turns work, you'll still lose first from a hive minded last chance.
Oh crap that's right. While the person to your right will be the first person to resolve, yours will resolve last which means you will be the first to get the extra turn. I guess I just have to go with the pacts idea (or find some cool shenanigans. Maybe cast Angel's grace. (or counter the final fortune before yours resolves. (let them all resolve and then gets to you where you counter it.)
Still these are spells i can run in narset with no worry.
Or you could just counter your own Final Fortune to stop your losing turn from happening in the first place.
not quite. 4 players. (1-2-3-4)
No, each other player gets a counterspell as well and can just counter your counterspell.
Just use Disrupting Shoal or Spell Blast in response to the Hive Mind trigger so they don't have their spells yet and their counter spells cannot target anything but your Final Fortune. But yes, a counter spell is pretty unreliable here.
In any case, the Sundial option seems to be the best (or some other method of not losing like Gideon's Emblem or Platinum Angel).
I don't think Niv 3 is a "more powerful" version of Niv 1 at all, Niv 1 draws himself cards, this requires another card to be used, and I only brought up standard because that is what I was playing it in, Finally I think it is frankly fantastic that Niv has kept a general set of abilities, it makes the Character actually flavorful instead of whatever random effects they staple on the current iteration of whatever Planeswalkers are getting printed.
Niv 2.0 was a similar concept (drawing + damage) to niv 1.0 that plays very differently. Niv 1.0 is mostly a combo machine that also synergizes ok with wheels. Niv 2.0 is mostly a mana dump that draws you cards and gives you removal and inevitability. Despite superficial similarities, they play very differently.
Niv 3.0, on the other hand, plays nearly identically to niv 1.0. If Niv 3.0 was worded as:
No counters!
Flying
Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery, draw a card. When you do, Niv deals 1 damage to any target.
At the beginning of your draw step, niv deals 1 damage to any target.
Then that would be a fresh take on a similar concept - now you're incentivized to sling spells in order to get cards and ping value. But because they used the exact same ability as 1.0, he's going to play basically the same - as a dumb combo machine that can't be allowed to live. Except now he'll draw you a card when he eats removal, and he can't be countered, and he's fatter. Thanks, WotC, I hate it.
Yeah, I sympathize with this. Niv 3.0's ability is exactly like Niv 1.0's, and then has some more stuff added on.
That said though, the format's old enough now that you'll probably often hear a player state they're not playing Curiosity effects, and be able to believe them when they do. Building Niv decks myself I always favored Niv 2.0, but once in a while I did try a Niv 1.0 and was fairly well received when I indicated I wasn't running any curiosity.
Also, two things maybe mitigating against obvious combo uses always showing up. One, there's always an influx in play of the new cards, and most people aren't interested in doing that. Most importantly two, there is Niv 1.0's second ability - the one that taps to draw cards. This turns Mind Over Matter into another combo option, including its redundancy with Azami and Arcanis. I don't think it's a far stretch to think that most players who actually do want to run the combo will stick with Niv 1.0, for both that reason and for him being easier to cast. It might be to the point where you see Niv 3.0 and just assume no Curiosity, where you see Niv 1.0 and conclude pretty safely that they're in there.
In the end though, Niv is going to be prime target for the table no matter what version, and no matter whether Curiosity effects are in the deck. I suppose that's why those players that are Izzet to the core, like myself, are so drawn to our much beloved Dragon.
With the way extra turns work, you'll still lose first from a hive minded last chance.
Oh crap that's right. While the person to your right will be the first person to resolve, yours will resolve last which means you will be the first to get the extra turn. I guess I just have to go with the pacts idea (or find some cool shenanigans. Maybe cast Angel's grace. (or counter the final fortune before yours resolves. (let them all resolve and then gets to you where you counter it.)
Still these are spells i can run in narset with no worry.
Doom Whisperer has me very excited for graveyard decks. It is a very good card for turning on graveyard engines or just stocking the graveyard with fodder for certain decks. I will be doing some testing of this card in Karador, Ghost Chieftain as a way to fill the graveyard and jumpstart my engine. I like it more than dredge because if feel less "all-in" and can be used as much, or as little as I need. In some decks, 2 life to mill 2 is similar to having Necropotence stapled on a 6/6 Flying Trampler for 3BB.
From a deck perspective, I'm a little disappointed that I'm not really playing that many cards from this set. I am a little surprised as to how the deck seemingly has a little bit for everything.
Doom Whisperer has me very excited for graveyard decks. It is a very good card for turning on graveyard engines or just stocking the graveyard with fodder for certain decks. I will be doing some testing of this card in Karador, Ghost Chieftain as a way to fill the graveyard and jumpstart my engine. I like it more than dredge because if feel less "all-in" and can be used as much, or as little as I need. In some decks, 2 life to mill 2 is similar to having Necropotence stapled on a 6/6 Flying Trampler for 3BB.
I was thinking about it for Marchesa, the Black Rose. There are a few reanimation effects in the deck, and it is an easy way to turn on Dethrone... but at 5 mana I am not sure it is worth it.
Doom Whisperer has me very excited for graveyard decks. It is a very good card for turning on graveyard engines or just stocking the graveyard with fodder for certain decks. I will be doing some testing of this card in Karador, Ghost Chieftain as a way to fill the graveyard and jumpstart my engine. I like it more than dredge because if feel less "all-in" and can be used as much, or as little as I need. In some decks, 2 life to mill 2 is similar to having Necropotence stapled on a 6/6 Flying Trampler for 3BB.
I was thinking about it for Marchesa, the Black Rose. There are a few reanimation effects in the deck, and it is an easy way to turn on Dethrone... but at 5 mana I am not sure it is worth it.
Is your deck intentionally built for low cmc?
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Oh, my bad. Didn't RTFC. WELL, I concede this debate. Where do I sign that I acknowledge that Boros is perma-boned?
There are a lot of cool cards that I see making a splash in Commander. Underrealm Lich, Thousand-Year Storm, Niv-Mizzet, Parun, Izoni, Thousand-Eyed, Beast Whisperer, Experimental Frenzy, Doom Whisperer (I'm still trying to figure out how this is a card... so busted!), Omnispell Adept, and Divine Visitation all strike me as being particularly good at what they do, and there are a lot of nice removal options and niche cards that will likely find their way into a lot of decks based on the theme (cards like Dawn of Hope, Truefire Captain, or Trostani Discordant). There is a lot to digest in this set and a ton of possibilities...
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
SON OF A...
Hey Narset, I have a job for you...
Isn't there other spells that have the clause (Take an extra turn, lose the game?)
I also know that some good wins could be as simple as casting a pact they cannot stop. (Usually the red one but hey, white can work too. (I would say blue, but it does not work the same way.)
EDIT: yes, there are three, Final Fortune, Last chance and Warrior's oath
Pairing one of them or Chance for glory with Hive mind is just evil.
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
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Cards I'm very likely to insert into my suite:
Crush Contraband - Mainly because I've given up trying to find a foil Return to Dust (and it won't be as cheap when I do), but I'm okay with losing the flexibility of destroying two artifacts or two enchantments in exchange for being able to work at full effectiveness when Sunforgered out. It's unlikely there isn't at least 1 of each card type on the battlefield anyway.
Omnispell Adept - I don't actually see this helping out Approach of the Second Sun in Isperia that much since it is that vulnerable (helps Kira is in though) and I think Approach is pretty much the only big splashy spell I play (although even a cost reduction of U on even a Cryptic Command can be a very mild consolation)... but the flavor is just too perfect I'll find the space for it.
Mausoleum Secrets - Karador-flavored tutor goes into Karador. It can search for Kokusho and that alone makes the card passable even with the color restriction, but another one where the superior flavor trumps the good-but-not-best function.
Midnight Reaper - Well, I do have Whip of Erebos in Zombie Tribal...
Beast Whisperer - Primordial Sage had it bad enough with Soul of the Harvest and can tender his resignation in light of this.
Mnemonic Betrayal - Another flavor homerun for a deck that's themed around betrayal.
Cards I might insert into my suite, but no hurry to get a copy:
Mission Briefing - Isochron Scepter exists and Surveil is probably way more relevant than a 2/1 body in the format.
Doom Whisperer - I think the issue is finding space for the card (likely Karador), but it's has a shot for the space with its power.
Goblin Cratermaker - I'm think the flexibility of weenie and Eldrazi removal does give this credit over the competition (mainly ETB artifact cards) despite needing 1 more mana and a sacrifice, but the sacrifice itself is the answer to its lack of evasion which usually makes stuff less appealing in Alesha.
Risk Factor - Ryusei has plenty of damage doublers and the fact this targets the opponent instead of letting anyone choose, this might be the variant of Browbeat I'd consider playing.
Assassin's Trophy - It's solid removal at the end of the day, and we all know Ghost Quarter is worth 2 mana to get rid of the terrifying nonbasics of the format.
Chance for Glory - I know Final Fortune exists, but it's the indestructible that could potentially sell the card to Sunforger in Alesha, considering it's trying to aggro.
Izoni, Thousand-Eyed - Like Doom Whisperer, subject to Karador fighting space.
Underrealm Lich - Same as above.
Knight of Autumn/Vraska, Golgari Queen - Likewise, but I'm less inclined to put them in since I think Qasali Pridemage is still better and Vraska, while okay, isn't majorly impressive.
Guildmages' Forum - It's not Opal Palace, but it works on non-Commanders and Animar has a +1/+1 theme, so it's an acceptable copy for redundancy.
Honorable mention for Lazav, the Multifarious for the card that probably tempted me the most to build something around him. Yes I know most of the Legendary Creatures were mediocre in this set, but precisely it was so I was expecting to the best among them to be "good in 99" at best and not actually tempt me to build something around him, so Lazav really deserves his mention. In fact he's so good I think he's about Atraxa levels of temptation (less mechnically but Lazav fits in my color distribution directly to replace an existing deck which is a huge boon as opposed to Atraxa), which was the best a card ever did. Too bad Atraxa never succeeded either.
Goddamn it...now I wanna put my Zedruu deck back together....with the whole plan of winning that way.......
I don't think Niv 3 is a "more powerful" version of Niv 1 at all, Niv 1 draws himself cards, this requires another card to be used, and I only brought up standard because that is what I was playing it in, Finally I think it is frankly fantastic that Niv has kept a general set of abilities, it makes the Character actually flavorful instead of whatever random effects they staple on the current iteration of whatever Planeswalkers are getting printed.
Dragons of Legend, Lead by Scion of the UR-Dragon
The Gitrog Monster
Gonti, Lord of Luxury
Shogun Saskia
Hive World
Atraxa hates fun
Abzan
With the way extra turns work, you'll still lose first from a hive minded last chance.
With the way extra turns work, you'll still lose first from a hive minded last chance.
Oh crap that's right. While the person to your right will be the first person to resolve, yours will resolve last which means you will be the first to get the extra turn. I guess I just have to go with the pacts idea (or find some cool shenanigans. Maybe cast Angel's grace. (or counter the final fortune before yours resolves. (let them all resolve and then gets to you where you counter it.)
Still these are spells i can run in narset with no worry.
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Stifle or plat angel and Sundial of the Infinite among other choices
Trickbind, Stife can be countered.
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WBG Ghave, Guru of Spores GBW
WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Niv 3.0, on the other hand, plays nearly identically to niv 1.0. If Niv 3.0 was worded as:
No counters!
Flying
Whenever a player casts an instant or sorcery, draw a card. When you do, Niv deals 1 damage to any target.
At the beginning of your draw step, niv deals 1 damage to any target.
Then that would be a fresh take on a similar concept - now you're incentivized to sling spells in order to get cards and ping value. But because they used the exact same ability as 1.0, he's going to play basically the same - as a dumb combo machine that can't be allowed to live. Except now he'll draw you a card when he eats removal, and he can't be countered, and he's fatter. Thanks, WotC, I hate it.
EDH Primers
Phelddagrif - Zirilan
EDH
Thrasios+Bruse - Pang - Sasaya - Wydwen - Feather - Rona - Toshiro - Sylvia+Khorvath - Geth - QMarchesa - Firesong - Athreos - Arixmethes - Isperia - Etali - Silas+Sidar - Saskia - Virtus+Gorm - Kynaios - Naban - Aryel - Mizzix - Kazuul - Tymna+Kraum - Sidar+Tymna - Ayli - Gwendlyn - Phelddagrif 4 - Liliana - Kaervek - Phelddagrif 3 - Mairsil - Scarab - Child - Phenax - Shirei - Thada - Depala - Circu - Kytheon - GrenzoHR - Phelddagrif - Reyhan+Kraum - Toshiro - Varolz - Nin - Ojutai - Tasigur - Zedruu - Uril - Edric - Wort - Zurgo - Nahiri - Grenzo - Kozilek - Yisan - Ink-Treader - Yisan - Brago - Sidisi - Toshiro - Alexi - Sygg - Brimaz - Sek'Kuar - Marchesa - Vish Kal - Iroas - Phelddagrif - Ephara - Derevi - Glissa - Wanderer - Saffi - Melek - Xiahou Dun - Lazav - Lin Sivvi - Zirilan - Glissa
PDH - Drake - Graverobber - Izzet GM - Tallowisp - Symbiote Brawl - Feather - Ugin - Jace - Scarab - Angrath - Vraska - Kumena Oathbreaker - Wrenn&6
i want to run all 3 nivs in my locust god deck (Locust god, Brudiclad and Okaum and Zndrsplt are the three decks i want to build)
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WUBRGThe Ur-DragonWUBRGDecklist
Or you could just counter your own Final Fortune to stop your losing turn from happening in the first place.
The
Necromancer (or Noob)
Cat.
Don't ask, I don't know why ether...
White
Bounty Agent - White is not necessarily short on answer cards, but being recurrable with Sun Titan, Adarkar Valkyrie, etc. makes this a nice way to keep opposing commanders in check. Couple that with the fact that cards like Paradox Engine, Alhammarret's Archive, The Chain Veil, Growing Rites of Itlimoc, etc. are all Legendary, and I doubt you will be short potential targets for this. The downside here is that it doesn't exile, so commanders like Purphoros, God of the Forge and other indestructibles are unaffected.
Citywide Bust - Mass removal at only 3 mana is always a nice option to have, and sometimes you will have a deck where most of your dudes are 4-toughness and less so that they slide right under the radar.
Dawn of Hope - Another solid lifegain payoff, it compares nicely to Well of Lost Dreams. Giving you a potential source of Lifelinkng tokens is a nice bonus.
Divine Visitation - Upgrading tokens from 1/1's or 0/1's to 4/4 flyers is kinda amazing. Some decks make tokens naturally will love this (Ghave, Guru of Spores, Marath, Will of the Wild, and Hazezon Tamar all seem to be particularly saucy), and there are plenty of ways to create small tokens on the cheap to really make the upgrade worthwhile.
Venerated Loxodon - I don't think this is a particularly great card, but I do want to point out that Convoke plays very well with Paradox Engine and in this case would allow you to then attack with all the recently buffed creatures used to convoke it out.
Blue
Chemister's Insight & Radical Idea - I like the idea of both of these cards. There are many reasons to want card from your hand back into your graveyard so paying the Jump Start cost can be a benefit in a lot of cases, and even just pitching a land late-game or a high-CMC card in the early game can go a long way to smoothing out draws. Coupled with the fact that these are both instants makes me like them a little better than something like Deep Analysis or Compulsive Research in certain situations.
Enhanced Surveilance - A comment in general on Surveil; improving your draw quality while simultaneously putting cards into your graveyard has many many ways to encourage/enable tons of shenanigans. Adding a bunch of Surveil effects to something like a reanimator strategy seems like it could be good, and once you hit a high enough threshold of Surveil cards then Enhanced Surveilance starts to make sense. I think that there might be just enough Surveil cards to hit that threshold for an EDH deck, and Surveil in general seems pretty good.
Murmuring Mystic - Not quite as good as getting 2/2 Flying Drakes, but getting payoffs like this for doing what blue decks already want to do is always welcome. And it's a Wizard to boot.
Omnispell Adept - Being able to cast huge Instants and Sorceries on the cheap is nice, and getting to drop a Sorcery on someone at Instant speed can be deadly. Combine with Gilded Lotus and Paradox Engine for total shenanigans...
Quasiduplicate - I will likely not be able to resist putting this into my Riku of Two Reflections deck. Given that 3 mana Clones are the new standard, this seems pretty good.
Black
Doom Whisperer - So getting a 6/6/ Flying Trampling Demon is supposed to come with a drawback, not a converted mana cost of five.... And paying life (and no mana) to Surveil just seems busted. I'm not quite sure exactly how I'm going to work this into my decks, but I'm pretty sure that this will land somewhere saucy and enable all sorts of graveyard shenanigans.
Gruesome Menagerie - Tons of value to be had, with only the fact that a lot of decks just don't run a lot of 1-drop creatures.
Plaguecrafter - With Fleshbag Marauder being popular with many players, I can see this being an upgrade.
Red
Experimental Frenzy - Generating card advantage in red is not easy, so rigging the top of your deck with Sensei's Divining Top or Scroll Rack and living off the top of your library seems like a potentially winning proposition. You can also Donate this to a non-red player (so they can't activate it's ability to sacrifice it) and drop a Grafdigger's Cage for lockout shenanigans.
Goblin Cratermaker - For the Goblin decks that really hate artifacts and Eldrazi...
Legion Warboss - Another nice add to Goblin tribal decks.
Risk Factor - So "Punisher" type card like this aren't considered particularly good because the opponent gets to choose what you get, but having them have to choose twice makes this a little more appealing than Browbeat.
Runaway Steam-Kin - For a color that has issues generating long-term mana acceleration, this at least intrigues me. Only triggering on red spells makes it less appealing for 100 card decks that for 60 card decks, but there is some potential that warrants looking into.
Green
Beast Whisperer - This is my favorite card of the set. Green has had to rely on cards like Primordial Sage or Soul of the Harvest for this kind of effect (or Glimpse of Nature for only one turn), but getting it for only 4 mana is amazing. And its an Elf and a Druid to boot...
Circuitous Route - Another fine way to accelerate mana and/or fix colors at a reasonable cost.
Hatchery Spider - Another nice value play for green, albeit with a few hoops to jump through.
Vivid Revival - You need the right kind of deck obviously, but getting a 3 for 1 in green is hard to come by.
Multicolor
Assassin's Trophy - Being able to destroy any permanent for only 2 mana is well worth them getting an extra basic land.
Camraderie - A nice tweak on Shamanic Revelation/Collective Unconscious.
Etrata, the Silencer - A very interesting alternate win-con, I can see a deck with Etrata at the helm filled with ways to make sure that the opponent has creatures for you to "hit" and protecting Etrata.
Firemind's Research - There are lots of cards that trigger on casting instants and sorceries in this set, and this is one that seems to have a lot of upside. To me, the card seems really "fair"; its not great, its not bad, it seems like it is costed just right. I think that you wold need to have some way of either accelerating counters onto it or ways to copy the abilities (like with Rings of Brighthearth or Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient) to really feel like I'm getting enough bang for my buck to get excited about it.
Ionize - Slightly worse than Undermine, but I don't Izzet mages will complain that much.
Izoni, Thousand-eyed - Golgari value-town. Tokens, lifegain, card draw... it's a floor wax and a dessert topping!!!
Knight of Autumn - Having that level of flexibility is really nice, and at a minimum this will be an upgrade over having to play Harmonic Sliver.
Mnemonic Betrayal - So having a Yawgmoth's Will for your opponent's graveyard seems spicy, but I doubt that this is going to make many waves in the long term.
Niv-Mizzet, Parun - This card is so good. I think it is definitely better than the original Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, with the only thing making it slightly worse is that god-awful mana cost. I will likley stay with Niv 1.0 as my commander, but this will surely make it into the deck.
Ral, Izzet Viceroy - This is a pretty strong Planeswalker, with the ability to generate CA, defend itself, and having an awesome ultimate. Mileage will very depending on how good PW's are in your meta, but this one seems fantastic for the cost.
Tajic, Legion's Edge - Give him Pro-Red, then every Earthquake effect you cast is a one-sided Wrath.
Thief of Sanity - This kind of effect keeps getting cheaper and cheaper, and getting this for 3 mana on a 2/2 Flyer seems pretty good.
Thousand-Year Storm - Okay, so the only thing keeping this from being broken is the CMC of 6, but I'm now pretty sure that a deck with card draw and burn spells is now a viable Commander option for Izzet or Grixis.
Trostani Discordant - The Brooding Saurion clause set aside, a card that generate two tokens and has an Anthem effect for your whole team (and essentially bringing 5 power tothe party despite the 1/4 stats) seems like a winner to me.
Underrealm Lich - Whether you are improving card quality or feeding the graveyard, this card is pretty awesome for generating late-game value.
Split Cards
All the split cards are the kinds of cards that you really need to want one side and have the other side be at least somewhat useful in your deck for them to make it, but in general you are going to be able to find more efficient cards to do the job. If you don't need the flexibility, then you are otherwise overpaying for the effects.
Artifacts
The Lockets are pretty good in general, especially the Boros one. Any color combination that needs the late game card draw and doesn't get it naturally (ie not blue or black) will likely want a mana rock that produces colored mana that they can trade in for cards. if you ever contemplated adding Mind Stone or Hedron Archive, then a Locket might be what you are looking for. The rest are otherwise underwhelming at best (with the nice reprint of Chromatic Lantern being the lone bright spot).
Lands
Shocklands and Gates returning are both welcome, with Guildmage's Forum being a nice addition that compare's nicely to Opal Palace and will probably go into the same kinds of decks (Ghave, Marath, Animar, Ulasht, Ramos, etc.)
I skipped a lot of intermediate value cards or cards that already do things that we have cards for that will just slot into the same kinds of decks (for example, any deck that runs Boros Reckoner will likely also want Truefire Captain), but overall there is a lot of cool cars in this set that will likely see play somewhere.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
not quite. 4 players. (1-2-3-4)
No, each other player gets a counterspell as well and can just counter your counterspell.
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In any case, the Sundial option seems to be the best (or some other method of not losing like Gideon's Emblem or Platinum Angel).
Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest WUR Voltron Control
Temmet, Vizier of Naktamun WU Unblockable Mirror Trickery
Ra's al Ghul (Sidar Kondo) and Face-Down Ninjas
Brudiclad, Token Engineer
Vaevictis (VV2) the Dire Lantern
Rona, Disciple of Gix
Tiana the Auror
Hallar
Ulrich the Politician
Zur the Rebel
Scorpion, Locust, Scarab, Egyptian Gods
O-Kagachi, Mathas, Mairsil
"Non-Tribal" Tribal Generals, Eggs
Yeah, I sympathize with this. Niv 3.0's ability is exactly like Niv 1.0's, and then has some more stuff added on.
That said though, the format's old enough now that you'll probably often hear a player state they're not playing Curiosity effects, and be able to believe them when they do. Building Niv decks myself I always favored Niv 2.0, but once in a while I did try a Niv 1.0 and was fairly well received when I indicated I wasn't running any curiosity.
Also, two things maybe mitigating against obvious combo uses always showing up. One, there's always an influx in play of the new cards, and most people aren't interested in doing that. Most importantly two, there is Niv 1.0's second ability - the one that taps to draw cards. This turns Mind Over Matter into another combo option, including its redundancy with Azami and Arcanis. I don't think it's a far stretch to think that most players who actually do want to run the combo will stick with Niv 1.0, for both that reason and for him being easier to cast. It might be to the point where you see Niv 3.0 and just assume no Curiosity, where you see Niv 1.0 and conclude pretty safely that they're in there.
In the end though, Niv is going to be prime target for the table no matter what version, and no matter whether Curiosity effects are in the deck. I suppose that's why those players that are Izzet to the core, like myself, are so drawn to our much beloved Dragon.
With black you could use Blood Funnel to counter your spell.
U Jalira Polymorph - Nothing
B Endrek Sahr Stax - Nothing
R Bosh Artifacts - Nothing
G Ezuri Elf Tribal - Beast Whisperer
WU Brago Blink - Nothing
UB Oona Mill - Thief of Sanity
RB Wort Goblins - Legion Warboss
RG Wort Conspire - Nothing
GW Sisay Legends -Nothing
GW Rhys Tokens - Divine Visitation, Camaraderie, Trostani Discordant
GW Trostani Lifegain - Dawn of Hope, Camaraderie, Knight of Autumn
WR Gisela Burn - Risk Factor, Runaway Steam-Kin, Truefire Captain, Boros Locket
WB Obzedat Drain Life - Nothing
UR Niv-Mizzet Draw-Go - Ionize, Niv-Mizzet, Parun, Thousand-Year Storm, Expansion // Explosion, Izzet Locket
UG Vorel +1/+1 counters - Zip
BG Jarad Fling - Doom Whisperer, Beast Whisperer, Assassin's Trophy, Izoni, Thousand-Eyed, Underrealm Lich
WUB Varina Zombies - Maybe Lotleth Giant
UBR Bolas Discard - Disinformation Campaign, Discovery // Dispersal, Dimir Locket
BRG Prossh Dragons - Assassin's Trophy
RGW Uril Enchantress - Zero
GWU Derevi Pingers - Sinister Sabotage, Emmara, Soul of the Accord
WUR Zedruu Donate - Experimental Frenzy
UBG Damia Maros - Assassin's Trophy
RGU Riku Copycat - Quasiduplicate
GWB Ghave +1/+1 counters - Assassin's Trophy, Guildmages' Forum
WUBG Atraxa Planeswalkers - Nada
C Karn Eldrazi - Zilch
Jalira, Master Polymorphist | Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder | Bosh, Iron Golem | Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Brago, King Eternal | Oona, Queen of the Fae | Wort, Boggart Auntie | Wort, the Raidmother
Captain Sisay | Rhys, the Redeemed | Trostani, Selesnya's Voice | Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Gisela, Blade of Goldnight | Obzedat, Ghost Council | Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind | Vorel of the Hull Clade
Uril, the Miststalker | Prossh, Skyraider of Kher | Nicol Bolas | Progenitus
Ghave, Guru of Spores | Zedruu the Greathearted | Damia, Sage of Stone | Riku of Two Reflections
I was thinking about it for Marchesa, the Black Rose. There are a few reanimation effects in the deck, and it is an easy way to turn on Dethrone... but at 5 mana I am not sure it is worth it.
8.RG Green Devotion Ramp/Combo 9.UR Draw Triggers 10.WUR Group stalling 11.WUR Voltron Spellslinger 12.WB Sacrificial Shenanigans
13.BR Creatureless Panharmonicon 14.BR Pingers and Eldrazi 15.URG Untapped Cascading
16.Reyhan, last of the Abzan's WUBG +1/+1 Counter Craziness 17.WUBRG Dragons aka Why did I make this?
Building: The Gitrog Monster lands, Glissa the Traitor stax, Muldrotha, the Gravetide Planeswalker Combo, Kydele, Chosen of Kruphix + Sidar Kondo of Jamuraa Clues, and Tribal Scarecrow Planeswalkers