[Official]
The Top 50 List (Indefinite Hiatus)
Poll: Which WHITE CREATURE should be removed from the list?
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Poll: Which BLACK CREATURES should be removed from the list? (Pick 4)
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Poll: Which GREEN NONCREATURE should be removed from the list?
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Poll: Which COLORLESS NONCREATURE should be removed from the list?
Ended Feb 16, 2019
The think about Fork and Reverberate though, is that they're functional reprints of each other- similar to Ravages of War and Armageddon, both which are on the top White spells. I'd vote for having Reverberate up there, but with Fork as well. Possibly dropping Vicious Shadows?
I second the Panglacial and Primeval swap. Primeval Titan has the enormous power of tutoring for any two lands, which at worst, could be two Forests- but that equates to drawing two cards the moment he lands. And another two cards when you attack with a very nicely sized body for CMC 6. But being able to grab any land also allows you to effectively turn your mana base into a toolbox of sorts, fetching Cradle or Strip Mine, or even Tabernacle or Academy Ruins, if you have other colors.
I don't think that BSA should be kicked off the list for Serra Ascendant. BSA is always going to be a 5/5 lifelinking monster that has first strike and pro dragons/demons when it might matter (also striking fear into wallets as well). Serra Ascendant doesn't always the guarantee of being it's 6/6 self, and has no built in evasion that functions independent of your life total. While it is a powerful 1 drop in the early game, it's not so great when you're at 25 life and you draw it, whereas BSA is still pretty good.
I would also say Sun Titan should be on the list, as everyone else has mentioned before. Crucible #2 or 3 is pretty devastating, especially when you can also recur any number of small things as well. I don't think that Hokori should be dropped, since he is a powerful enabler for a lot of decks. Having a Winter Orb on a stick makes your opponent very nervous about tapping out, and basically can function like a pseudo Armageddon. That said, I think Twilight Shepard should be swapped for the Titan- it's simply put, the weakest card on the list IMO, and not nearly as powerful as the Titan with an inbuilt CA engine.
Grave Titan is definitely a candidate. The new wording on deathtouch makes it a lot harder to avoid even with ordering blockers, and the fact it really generates 14 power if not dealt with, and progressively increases from there, makes it a card that won't win you the game immediately, but it'll definitely get you pretty close to it. As for what to drop for it, I'd volunteer Reiver Demon, Butcher of Malakir or Dread.
Crystal Ball while not another Top, is much better than the comparable Darksteel Pendant. If it was Scry 3, then it would be even better than Top. However, it's only Scry 2, but that still lets you decide if you like the top two, want to keep one, etc. It's a bit like a repeatable Court Hussar that doesn't let you put cards in your hands, and digs one less deeper. Of course, I have no idea what could be cut for it because the list is already pretty fine tuned as it is.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
wait wait wait wait wait. wait. wait. wait wait wait. wait. Are you INSANE? A turn 1 6/6 FLYING LIFELINK is not good enough for you? When I saw serra ascendant I immediately thought "Dammit, wizards must be trying to deliberately sabatoge EDH by giving us a card that's stupidly overpowered in EDH but mediocre in standard." I don't think BSA is the card to remove, but serra ascendant is probably the best white creature - no, best white CARD - in the format. dropping one down on turn 1 is absolutely brutal.
I agree that grave titan needs to be on the list though.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Think about it like this, you wouldn't say Gemstone Caverns is the best land ever printed and is absolutely nuts in EDH even though it accelerates you before the game even begins, right? Thats because it needs to be in your opening hand, same with the leylines and same with this. If you don't cast this within the first few turns of the game its a dead draw, 1/1s don't do anything in EDH. Sure its nuts on turn one, but so are a bunch of other cards that are not on the list. It really isn't that hot, especially when you consider that if you get into a great position in the early game that will soon fade when you are made the number one target late game when your dood is a small fry anyway.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
It's a matter of power level. gemstone cavern costs you CA, it's basically a very conditional mox diamond. Which is a good card, sure, but not amazing. A 6/6 goddamn lifelink flyer on turn 1 is absolutely obscene, especially since so many people don't have much cheap targeted removal. in the 4 turns it takes to get wrath online, it could create a 36 life swing. For one mana. you'll forgive me if I don't consider that on the same par with the mediocre affects of leylines or gemstone cavern.
Plus it's a lot less conditional than caverns. Serra ascendant only needs to be drawn "fairly early" to be a 6/6 flying lifelinker for W, whereas caverns has to be in your starting hand. Obviously it's most explosive turn 1, but in GW there's plenty of tutors that could bring it out on turn 2 or 3 fairly consistently. and once it's working, there's no way you'll drop below 30 in 1v1.
in 1v1 EDH, EVERY SINGLE WHITE DECK should be running it. Period.
in multiplayer, it's a matter of taste. Exploding out of the starting gate definitely has the potential to paint a massive target on your back. Aggro has always been a bad idea in multiplayer. But it's hard to hate a card just for being TOO good.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
This list has absolutely nothing to do with 1v1. Period.
Aggro and faster midrange decks can be successful there just aren't very many generals that are good aggro generals and most of those end up being voltron decks. I'll definitely be playing him in my Uril deck which does pretty well despite being very aggressive.
First things first, in 1vs1 your life total starts at 30, so you can't crack fetches and your opponent can crack you in the head with just about anything to stop your angel, not to mention in 1vs1 cheap removal is plentiful and curves are much lower.
Second off, I don't think you have ever heard of the word "combo" in your life, which is why gemstone caverns is typically a much better card in your starting 7 then the ascendant. And if we are going to get into tutoring the thing up, can't your opponent just tutor up some removal as well? Especially since you are telegraphing your moves to them.
Its a really good turn 1 drop, no one is saying its not. The thing is it really starts to suck after that, and EDH games tend to go on for much longer then one turn.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
Har, didn't even notice that since it was buried in the Q&A crap in the thread, not in the topic title. In that case, though, it seems pretty impossible to make a good list...I mean, a lot of the cards on here will just get you targeted and beat to a pulp. Gaddock teeg is extremely powerful but you're going to have every player beating the hell out of you ASAP.
But since the list seems to be more of a "most powerful cards in multiplayer" list, and not a "best cards in multiplayer" list, I'd still have to say that ascendant certainly belongs on the list.
It's true that most successful aggro decks are voltron-ish, I dunno that the ascendant would really help out very much in that situation, though, since they're going for general damage. It does force removal pretty quickly, that might otherwise be leveled at the general, but I'd almost prefer it in a control deck as a blocker than in an aggro deck as an attacker. I guess it's also a decent blocker in multiplayer aggro, though, when you're getting attacked by a lot of people.
obviously caverns got sort of notorious for enabling combo flash decks before flash got pwnt, but there's still plenty of acceleration in EDH that beats the hell out of it. It's ok for fast combo decks in EDH I suppose, but artifact acceleration is still a lot less conditional and without the CA loss, for the most part. Don't compare legacy/vintage combo with EDH, they're totally different games in terms of speed, that 1-mana boost is a much smaller deal. It's good, but it's not a wincon that doesn't require any buildaround, which is what ascendant is.
and please let's not get into the "it's bad because I can terminate it" line of thinking. it's a 6/6 flying lifelink on the first few turns, the fact that it's killable doesn't make it any less amazingly good. if your opponent is forced to use a killspell on a 1 cmc creature, then that's probably exactly the sort of thing you ought to be running.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
BTW: I always believe that BSA should not be on the list.
I'm quite aware of standard EDH building practices...personally, my typical mean CMC for a deck is between 2 and 3 and it seems to be working fine for me.
Personally I'd kick eternal dragon or kor sanctifiers.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
IMHO a good EDH combo deck (not one intended for fun, but for competition) should be goldfishing by turn 4 at the latest, so yes I think the one mana boost is very relevant in EDH, but obviously caverns isn't run in EDH because of its terrible consistency. The angel deserves the same treatment, its terribly inconsistent.
Also, I was not going to a "it dies to removal" debate. You were the one that mentioned that you would tutor for it to add to consistency, I was pointing out that if you were going to tutor for it your opponent is probably going to get the opportunity to tutor for something as well.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
Grave Titan -> Endrek Sahr (much more powerful and efficient token producer)
Sun Titan -> Kor Sanctifiers (Sanctifiers really wasn't too hot to begin with since his ETB ability is tricky to abuse further due to kicker. Sun Titan is just insane for what he does; he is a utility creature that beats down for nice chunks of damage)
Comet Storm -> Demonfire (Hellbent is not as easy to attain as X > 5 for Banefire. For one more mana, you get an instant-speed Blaze that hits multiple targets. That's well worth the one less point of damage.)
Primeval Titan -> Panglacial Wurm (Should be fairly obvious. Panglacial Wurm is still amazingly awesome though.)
Added the following to the multicolored creatures list to bring it to 25:
- Dimir Doppelganger
- Harmonic Sliver
- Necrotic Sliver
- Shadowmage Infiltrator
- Vulturous Zombie
I'm trying to find room for Serra Ascendant somewhere because she is much better in multiplayer when you have 40 life than in 1v1 where you have 30 life. The 10 point difference really is a lot, especially when multiplayer games are slower and it can take a bit before life totals start chipping away.
Dinner time...
Cold-Eyed Selkie does everything Finkel does and then some.
I know people like their huge creatures in EDH, but it's not as though a mono-white Nip Gwillion is all that terrible. Even if it's only pumped once in a while (and I think it will be pumped quite a bit) it's still a damn efficient creature. For a control deck that wants to leave mana untapped, it seems like a helluva deal.
anyway are we debating over whether it's the best white EDH card ever, or whether it's deserving of the top 50 list? if it's the former, I don't really feel that strongly about it, it's pretty hard to compare it to, say, land tax. It's definitely deserving of a spot on the list, though.
EDIT: Am I missing something about eternal dragon? I haven't used it much, but it seems like very slow and expensive mana fetching, and a pretty inefficient fatty with awfully expensive recursion. I can't think why it couldn't come off for ascendant.
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
Eternal Dragon is incredibly powerful; what it is is basically CA for mono white decks, or decks that don't easily generate CA via drawing cards. When you cycle it the first time, you're making sure you 1) have a land to drop; 2) drawing a land card from your deck, thereby lowering the land density in your deck and acting like a fetch in some respects; and at a stage when you can recur it, 3) 1 and 2 reapply again. Mostly, it is the fact that it has a built in CA engine not easily countered that draws you lands and recurs itself, which equates to another card in your hand, or another land and so on. It's towards the later turns it begins to shine; it's not a 'I WIN' card, but a 'I will help you start getting to the winning part' card.
EDIT:
To be of actual use, maybe drop Rune-Tail for Serra? They both trigger at similar life totals, but I feel like Rune-Tail is much better as a general than a creature in various decks, and that Serra is much more of an efficient creature working on the same assumption you have the life to trigger it.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
I'll admit that white's a little hard-up for CA, but 7 mana to draw a card? that's pretty desperate. The cycling ability itself is ok since you can just use it at player-to-the-right's endstep, but paying 5 before you know what you're going to draw is pretty awful. I'm sure it's great when you've got 13 mana open, but until then it seems pretty mediocre...
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
erm, I disagree. If you've got enough mana to easily pay 7 a turn, it's a lot worse than a draw, because a land is going to be pretty useless. sure it thins the deck for drawing other stuff, but if it was just plain cycling you might draw an actual useful card instead.
If you'd prefer to draw something besides a land, then it would be better with regular cycling, that's pretty obvious. And btw, it takes a LOT of plainscycling to substantially thin a 100 card deck.
Personally I'd prefer Sky hussar, which admittedly isn't mono-white, but it's a cheaper upkeep cost and probably harder to get rid of, and it doesn't only draw basic lands. And it's still not exactly spectacular.
EDIT: maybe part of the reason that I think ascendant is so good is because I tend to play a pretty political game, so I'm usually not below 30 life until...idk, maybe turn 10 on average?
WUB Merieke Ri Berit BUW
GWU Phelddagrif 1 2 3 4 UWG
BR Kaervek the Merciless RB
B Chainer, Dementia Master B
WUB Sen Triplets BUW
BG Sisters of Stone Death GB
WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon GRBUW
GWU Angus Mackenzie UWG
R Kumano, Master Yamabushi R
WB Teysa BW
U Higure U
B Geth B
WUBRG Child of Alara 1 2GRBUW
R Zirilan R
U Arcum U
UR Nin RU
BRG Sek'Kuar GRB
U Teferi U
G Melira G
GU Edric UG
BG Glissa GB
Casual
GUB Knacksaw Clique BUG
RWU Sunforger UWR
I like the other changes but disagree with this one. The Titan should be on the list but not at the expense of Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder. With a free sac outlet he can spit out a continuous stream of tokens and he is a staple in any black token or sac based deck. Reiver Demon is an 8 mana situational sweeper that is tough to cast and Butcher of Malakir is a much easier to kill Gravepact that costs almost twice as much. One of those should go instead.
- Dimir Doppelganger
Tried him out a bunch; he, like his constituent colors, doesn't measure up. Notice how all the other "cloning" effects on the lists allow ETB triggers. This doesn't.
- Wrexial, the Risen Deep
Again, bad colors in multiplayer, plus you want to be yanking permanents out of yards, not instants or sorceries.
+ Deathbringer Liege
Yum. Creature control just for playing spells + pumping. A must for Ghost Council.
+ Dominus of Fealty
A Word of Seizing every turn? Can Jhoira or Niv-Mizzet justify not using him? Small wonder why this got repeatedly mentioned in the "If you could use a nonlegendary creature as a general" thread.
For just one more mana you can get myojin of Seeing Winds which draws you a ton of cards.
Also, vendelion click? A 2 card combo with tunnel vision that only hits one person really isn't good enough, especially since that combo fails against anyone playing the legendary eldrazi (80% of decks?). Additionally, the hand filtering isn't enough to make it top 20 even if that effect is difficult to find in blue.
I recommend mnemonic wall. From the combo aspect, it allows far more powerful combos (from evacuation lock to time warp/time stretch + bounce (crystal shard) and/or copy loop (rite of replication)). Its utility is very nice, and with all the instants and sorceries that blue likes to play, this is about as close to eternal witness as blue is going to get, and solid for all the reasons E witness is.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
I think Stormtide Leviathan may take a place on the list. I am not sure
vendelion is the best general in EDH game, not even one of
vendelion is one of the best general killer in EDH game
It must stay in the list until it is banned
I'm not sure if Stormtide is good enough to be on the list, as it good, but I'm not sure if it's better than some of the cards listed. Island Sanctuary on an unblockable beatstick is pretty appealing, though.
Vendellion Clique is one of the most powerful and oppressive generals to ever, ever be printed as a card. Even as this list isn't about what makes a good general, it comes down as a pretty effective card. As most decks that play it are mono blue or play heavily in blue, it's likely you're going to be playing some variation of bounce spells, which then enables you to get rid of a general permanently.
The problem with Mnemonic Wall is that most of the combos you've listed require a large amount of mana to go off, and Wall itself comes down as a 5 drop, which makes it a bit on the questionable side of whether it should be on the list, especially when compared to various other creatures that are listed that are able to generate impacts on their own.
EDH:
Zo-Zu the Punisher
Phelddagrif
Rhys the Redeemed
Ashling the Pilgrim
Ruhan of the Fomori
Rafiq of the Many
Jarad, Golgari Lich Lord
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Lazav, Dimir Mastermind
Aurelia, the Warleader
Animar, Soul of Elements
Borborygmos Enraged
Riku of Two Reflections
It's won me countless games (and a near-countless amount of scorn). Quasali Pridemage doesn't exactly impact the game like Armageddon on a stick.
IMHO Desolation Angel isn't actually that super in EDH. I mean, if you run a mass LD deck its good as another Armageddon(a really expensive one, though), but the creature its attached to isn't relevant. Its only a 5/4, which means that its going to take 8 hits to kill ONE player in EDH. Which is more than enough time for many people to recover. Its a much better card outside of EDH
Maybe its good as a finisher when everyone else is at less than 10 life and there are no other creatures on the board, but at that point isn't an Earthquake just as good?
Also, IMHO the pridemage is actually a really good card. Its only two mana for artifact and enchantment removal, it blocks like a champ, and the exalted ability has proven to be surprisingly relevant (most creatures in EDH are focused around 6/6, and having a 7/7 instead keeps your beast alive)
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]