[Official]
The Top 50 List (Indefinite Hiatus)
Poll: Which WHITE CREATURE should be removed from the list?
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Poll: Which BLACK CREATURES should be removed from the list? (Pick 4)
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Poll: Which GREEN NONCREATURE should be removed from the list?
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Poll: Which COLORLESS NONCREATURE should be removed from the list?
Ended Feb 16, 2019
Also, its a 5/4 flyer. Which means it has evasion. And if it does come late in the game, it can do so after green has already gotten every land out of its deck. Which means it can completely ruin the game for anyone playing green. Also, it sort of throws off people trying to activate liliana final, although having someone tuck your general with proteus staff so you get a desolation angel might not be the best day you ever had.
In any case, armageddon plus a creature is REALLY good. Remember, resolve erhnam djinn, cast armageddon is a legit strategy in magic (or at least it was). That, and players should be at less than 40 life by the time this guy comes out. I mean, their argument is like saying:
armageddon is bad because you might not have a winning board position when you cast it. Its silly. Land D is cast when you have board position and you want to solidify it. Because board position can swing a quickly when players have access to anywhere from 8 to 100 mana. And this makes sure that stops.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios
There are already so many better options for mass land destruction. Armageddon, Ravages of War, Cataclysm, Winter Orb, Hokori, Catastrophe, etc. and all are cheaper. The 5/4 flier isn't very important but you are basically still required to already have a better board position. A 5/4 flier isn't going to suddenly put you ahead if you are behind.
Technically, Armageddon, Ravages of War, Cataclysm, Winter Orb, and Hokori, Dust Drinker won't put you ahead if you are behind either. With either of thiis cards, you are still required to already have a better board position -- or in the case of Winter Orb and Hokori, a combo piece. The point with these category of cards is just that -- to kick your opponents while you are ahead and to keep them down.
I won't say that all these options are necessarily better than Armageddon, et. al. and the existence of other mass land destruction does not make Desolation Angel any less of a good card -- a strong contender for the top 25.
Exactly, all these types of cards require you to be winning anyways so why would I pay 7 mana for something when I can just pay 4?
When Zur stays on the board, destroying all lands means game.
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
Meanwhile, I'd like to nominate a replacement for the red creature list: Kumano, Master Yamabushi. He fills two critical roles in EDH: A) a reusable source of direct damage/CA; and B) anti-recursion tech (in response to a board wipe, for instance, you can ping whatever creatures you don't want to ever see again). To make room, Taurean Mauler can safely be pink-slipped because he has the same problem as Kresh--he never remains on the board long enough to become a serious threat.
I disagree with removing Taurean Mauler. This isn't something you want to drop on turn 3 and hope he lives (unless you've got some spiffy boots for him to put on his shapeshifting bull hooves). At that point, people haven't exhausted their resources yet. If you can drop a Mauler in the middle-to-late game when people have used their Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Diabolic Edict cards already, he can get pretty massive and suit up for the win. I've seen late game Taurean Mauler's go unanswered for one turn around a five or six person multiplayer while everyone was digging for an answer and have it put someone at a) such a low life they were unimportant to the game because they could easily be handled or b) dead.
I don't know what to remove but I think that the Mauler is far too good to let go. Maybe just a personal thing.
EDIT: Perhaps Rakka Mar? I've never really seen it abused to be honest.
UWG Jenara, Asura of War
BUG The Mimeoplasm
B Geth, Lord of the Vault
shouldn't *** be one of the best white spells or do you consider functionally identitical to route and other similiar spells already on there?
imperial seal = vampiric tutor right?
While you are right in saying that Wrath of God is a good EDH spell, it is not really a Top 25 for a few reasons. In EDH, players are more willing to sacrifice some degree of cost-efficiency for versatility -- note that unlike normal constructed games, EDH games tend to be longer (players start at 40 life) and it could take quite a few turns before you succumb to some swarm strategies. Note that sometimes, players may play very few creatures -- or at least, they would play recursive creatures -- in their deck (rendering Wrath of God slightly less useful). Even if you are guaranteed that they will play one creature (i.e. their general), they can always bring back the general for an additional 2.
So, back to the list: -
Akroma's Vengeance is added for its efficiency. It allows you to destroy artifacts (Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, etc.) and enchantments too (which are somewhat common usage in EDH) and if you don't need it, you can cycle it. Note that this list is also for multiplayer games and in multiplayer games, you are bound to hit more enchantments and artifacts with it.
Austere Command is added for its versatility. It allows you options -- and options are ever more important in EDH. It also wipes the board in such a way that it is to your advantage.
Cataclysm is added for its efficiency. It is a mad Frankensteinian monster of Wrath of God, Shatterstorm, Tempest of Light and Armageddon.
Catastrophe is added for its versatility. It can be used to save yourself from a tight spot (i.e. using its Wrath of God part) or it can be used to close all exits for your dying opponent (i.e. using its Armageddon part).
Hallowed Burial is added for its completeness. For 1 it has the option of preventing recursion tricks (say, burying a Genesis, etc.) or simply burying their general at the bottom of the library.
Martial Coup is probably added for its versatility. If there's no creatures to destroy -- or if you have boatload of mana -- you may want some lovely 1/1 soldiers. Then again, to be honest, I think there are better white cards to replace this with (though Wrath of God is not one of them).
Rout is added for versatility. The option to play it at instant speed is a crucial one, allowing you to play creatures during your main phase freely.
Yep, it is a functional reprint.
@SC: You might want to note that it is so in parantheses
Actually Vampiric Tutor is loads better than the seal because its an instant, we could free up another spot by lumping them together but strictly speaking Imperial Seal isn't as good.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
Lumping Imperial Seal with Vampiric Tutor is like lumping Counterspell with Mana Drain, the cards really aren't anywhere near the same quality. Reverberate and Fork are pretty much the same though.
I have to second Ixidron that card is simply got me out of alot of binds, Note it also deals nicely with nonmorph generals which for the most part are FAR less dangerous as 2/2's
So is Necropotence not good because any competent list is packing Mindslaver? Shutting down generals is generally just a bonus, the real effect you're looking at Ixidron for is a semi-Wrath effect (some ways better, some ways worse) in mono-blue that leaves you with an absolutely huge creature. Better than Inkwell Leviathan, which just gets you a huge beatstick (that can no longer be Tinkered).
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
I'd also like to suggest the addition of Myr Retriever to the colorless creature list, or at least group it with Junk Diver. I realize they aren't wholly functional reprints, but the difference between the two makes either one arguably better than the other (cheaper vs evasion).
MTG L1 Judge
Don't get me wrong. It is a good card and all. I even wrote the "Why it's good" card explanation for Luminarch Ascension here where I went on to praise its ability to hose slow-rolling control decks, its ability to provide a sizeable army, among others.
On the other hand, in multiplayer games, I just don't see it being anywhere near the Top 25 noncreatures. True, in multiplayer games, Luminarch Ascension checks whether life is lost during EACH of your opponent's beginning of end step. This could mean that in a five player game, you can theoreticallly "fulfil" the Luminarch Ascension after a mere one turn cycle. However, playing Luminarch Ascension essentially gives your opponents a quest to keep damaging you or risk being subject to your (un)holy aerial assaults. It effectively paints you as a target; in all my playgroups, I have found it easy to convince and manipulate the table to "attack the player with the Luminarch Ascension". Basically, if you are not already the target, you WILL be made "the target". If you are already the target, well, Luminarch Ascension isn't exactly going to help you and you aren't exactly going to make any new friends.
The saddest part is that Luminarch Ascension happens to be very easy to deal with notwithstanding all the fuss it creates. In all my playgroup, the player with the Luminarch Ascension almost always sees his/her Ascension being bounced, destroyed, removed or otherwise neutered before the Ascension actually goes "online". Mind you, most of the times, even after your Luminarch Ascension has been dealt with, the table may choose to continue targeting you anyway, if only for your failed "world domination" attempt. Personally, I don't think it is worth it turning the table against you for such uncertain returns.
Again, it is not a bad card per se. It is just the format (i.e. multiplayer) that makes this card dangerous.
I would recommend the following cards as replacements: -
Dismantling Blow
It costs 4WU when kicked but it is potentially a three-for-one when kicked. Admittedly, it is not playable in monowhite decks though to my defence, it is a monowhite card
Endless Horizons
This is one of the more acceptable ways for monowhite decks to get some semblance of "card advantage" -- note that it also gives you nonbasic plains or to Mana Severance yourself if needs be. Obviously, care should be taken that this would not backfire.
While I agree that Luminarch draws a lot of hate, can't the same be said of just about other really good card? Sure, Ascension has directions on it for people that are bad at magic, but if someone drops a Necroptence or Teferi experienced players would do the same thing.
Being attacked for running good cards is no reason to stop running them.
Halfdane
Sek'Kuar
Please remember to autocard, just do [ card ] CARD NAME [ / card ] and for decks you can cover the whole thing in one deck tag like this: [ deck ] All of the cards in the deck [ / deck ]
I think that Luminarch Ascension departs from the cards you mentioned in two ways. Firstly, unlike Necropotence or Teferi, it gives the table a very DIRECT incentive to smash your face -- or face boatloads of Angels after a few turns. It is quite clear and unambiguous to the opponents that if you don't deal with Luminarch Ascension quickly, a legion of 4/4 Angels will eventually appear. It is also worth noting that there is almost no political utility for Luminarch Ascension in multiplayer games. At the very least, with Teferi, you can cast it out and convince your table that you're only doing it to stop, say, Jhoira from being broken or stopping certain degenerate combos.
Secondly -- and perhaps more importantly -- unlike Luminarch Ascension, cards like Necropotence and Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir helps you do SOMETHING almost immediately when it is played (okay, you may have to wait for the beginning of your end step for Necropotence but at least you don't have to wait for FOUR turns).
I agree with this. An activated Luminarch Ascension practically wins the game for its controller (unless someone else combos off) unless it's removed quickly. Even with the rest of the table gunning for you, the fact that you're making Angels like crazy kind of negates that fact.
Just to make sure everyone else here understands (though I realize I sound stupid to most, if not all of the other posters on this thread), Luminarch Ascension triggers on the end of EACH opponent's endstep. Assuming that one of your opponents is having a bad time, you can get away with blocking another, and the third gets through, it will only take 2 CYCLES. This means that if you play it on turn 2, you will likely make Angels on turn 4. And while some people may say "it's horrible turn 10+," it's not, it's just not broken (like a not nearly as good Sol Ring). It would be rare, that in a white deck full of Wrath effects, you would go longer than 3 or so CYCLES without it becoming active.
Also, no one here's going to discuss Ixidron vs. Inkwell Leviathan?
GX Tron XG
UR Phoenix RU
GG Freyalise High Tide GG
UR Parun Counterspells RU
BB Yawgmoth Token Storm BB
WB Pestilence BW
and any competent list is going to be running oblivion stone and other board wipers so things that die to that should be removed?
Dies to removal is a failed argument. The fact is that there are probably only a coulple of sac outlets in a deck. The most a deck could have is 8. Lets suppose you have tutors to, so it only takes you two turns to get your sac outlet and use it to sac your general, and then another turn to cast it. Thats still significant disruption.
I mean, cabal coffers dies to strip mine and wasteland, and every deck should be running those 2. So yes, every good card will likely have a pair of answers to it in a deck because that is how the metagame works. However, that in no way prevents cards from being good. Dying to removal has never prevented cards from being playable, it has simply made the decks find ways to get around that removal.
Legacy:WUBG Jace Rock
Trade thread
Sig by: heroes of the plane studios